DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 2 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OCTOBER 27, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Phone: APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 MR. roly name is . I : The recorder is on. MR. am a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New York Field Office, and these are my credentials. MS. Thank you. MR. : This interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons employee, Captain Kim . Did I get that right? MS. MR. MS. Yes. MR. : Is being conducted as an official U.S. Department of Justice, of the Inspector General investigation. Today's date is October 27th. The time is 11:25 a.m. This interview is being conducted at the OIG. New York Field Office, located on the York, New York. MR. Agent, credentials. part of Office New Also present is: DOJ/OIG Senior Special And these are my MS. : Thank you. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Thank you. MR. : This interview will be recorded by me, Special Agent Could everyone please identify themselves for the record, and spell your last name? To str again, I am DOJ OIG Special Agent, MR. Senior Special A ent MS. And Captain , as in MR. : Thank you. This is an official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and you are being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the DOJ/OIG? MS. Yes. MR. Okay. I'm going to provide : you with a form. OIG form III-226/2. It states, "United States Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to Employees Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to provide information as part of 4 EFTA00117506 S 1 an investigation being conducted by the Office 2 of the Inspector General. This investigation 3 is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector 4 General Act of 1978, as amended. 5 This investigation pertains to job 6 performance failure and security failure. This 7 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 8 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 9 action will be taken against you if you choose 10 not to answer questions. Any statements you 11 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 12 criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary 13 proceeding, or both." 14 The waiver section states, "I understand 15 the Warnings and Assurances stated above, and I 16 am willing to make a statement and answer 17 questions. No promises or threats have been 18 made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any 19 kind has been used against me." Please review 20 the form, and if you understand and agree, 21 please sign where it states, "Employee 22 Signature " and print your name below it. 23 MS. You said, so, print right 24 here? 25 MR. : Yeah. 6 1 MS. : And signatureiii iirint? 2 MR. Yes. This is 3 I'm signing on the of the Special 4 Agent. Agent IIIIIIIIII, can you please sign 5 as a witness? 6 MR. : Yes. I am signing as a 7 witness. Put my name, and I will enter the 8 date, time, and place. 9 MR. : Thank you. Captain 10 before starting the interview, I would like to 11 place you under oath. Can you please raise 12 your right hand? 13 MS. Yeah. 14 MR. MI•l. Do you swear to tell the : 15 truth and nothing but the truth during this 16 interview? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. Thank you. You can put your 19 hand down. Please let me know if you do not 20 understand any questions I ask, and I will try 21 to repeat it, or rephrase it for you. 22 MS. • Okay. 23 MR. What is your current home 24 address? 25 MS. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7 MR. : Thank you. What is your date of birth? MR. What is your social security MS. • number? MS. MR. What is your current cell • phone number? MS. • Area code is MR. : What is your highest level of education? MS. Some college. MR. Which college? MS. Just a couple-community college. MR. : Okay. MS. In my hometown. Back in Indiana. MR. : What was the name of the college? MS. Commonwell (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:27) Business College. 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. concertation MS. : Okay. And was there a ou were following? No. 8 MR. : Okay. What did you do prior to workiniiiiiiihe BOP? MS. : I worked for Indiana State Corrections. MR. And how long was that for? MS. : I started, it was about, I believe I started in 1993. And then, I left there in L2L2nd came to the BOP. MR. 'I'll': Okay. In '98, you came to the BOP? MS. IIIIIII: Yes. MR. : Okay. Did you have any military service? MS. IIIIIII: No. MR. : Okay. And have you been with the BOP since 1998? MS. Yes. MR. Okay. Do you remember your : exact enter on duty date? MS. IIIIIII: April 26, 1998. MR. : Thank you. And what is your current employment status? EFTA00117507 9 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. understand. MR. position with MR. MR. MS. MR. MS. MR. MS. I'm sorry. I don't What is your current Yeah. -- the BOP? I'm a captain. I'm sorry. At the FCI Fort -- At Fort -- -- Dix. -- yes. At FCI Fort Dix. I'm the complex captain. MR. : Okay. And prior to being captain at FCI Fort Dix, were you employed at the MCC? MS. : Well, I was the deputy captain at Fort Dix. Then I got the institution captain, but prior to that, yes, I was emplo ed at MCC New York. MR. : During what time period? MS. : I started in -. I transferred to MCC in April of 2013, and I left in September 2019. MR. : And what was, in September 2019, you transferred over to -? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. MR. MS. MR. MS. MR. MCC in 2019? MS. MR. that a nine MS. MR. MS. MR. FCI Fort Dix. As a deputy Captain. -- captain. Mm-hmm. What was your position at the I was a lieutenant. : A lieutenant. Okay. Was or -? No. I was an 11. An 11. Mm-hmm. : Okay. And as a lieutenant at the MCC, what were your duties there? MS. : That year, I was assigned as the administrative lieutenant. So, my duties consisted of making sure the staff and the correctional services department got their training. I did everybody's schedules. Sometimes, I covered shifts. If the captain wasn't there, I acted in his capacity. lust various, ou know, responsibilities. MR. : It was not in custody, it was more, you said administrative? 11 1 MS. Well, the administrative 2 lieutenant is part of the custody department, 3 because everything I did involved officers and 4 lieutenants. 5 MR. : Okay. And in terms, I know 6 there is an operations lieutenant. There is an 7 activities lieutenant. 8 MS. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. And where would you fall 10 under? Like, do you work side by side with 11 them, or is there a separate department that 12 you are -? 13 MS. : Well, we worked on the same 14 floor. But I don't do the same duties that 15 they do. 16 MR. Mi Okay. 17 MS. : So, I would be there with 18 them, but they would be covering the shift. I 19 had nothing to do with the shift itself. You 20 know, the trips that went out, or the work 21 assignments or whatever. I would do the work 22 assignments prior to them actually working on 23 that day. So, as the administrative 24 lieutenant, my responsibility was to generate 25 the daily rosters, and the quarterly rosters, 12 1 and give those to the lieutenants, and then 2 they did whatever they needed to do with them. 3 MR. : Okay. And who reported to 4 you direc. 5 MS. : The officers reported to me. 6 And that was retty much it. 7 MR. : Which officers? 8 MS. : All of them, because I did 9 all of their schedules. So, they came to me if 10 they had an issue, or they needed time off, 11 they had an issue with their schedule. They 12 were out on workman's comp. Or, you know, 13 anything dealing with leave time, or anything, 14 they came to me. 15 MR. : Okay. And you mentioned that 16 you would coordinate training for the 17 employees? 18 MS. Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : What kind of trainings? 20 MS. The quarterly mandatory 21 trainings that we were required to do. Our 22 annual trainings that we were required to do. 23 Regular annual refresher training. Firearms 24 training. I had to do all of - schedule all of 25 that. EFTA00117508 13 1 MR. : Okay. And did you schedule 2 all of that, the quarterly training, the annual 3 refresher training, all that, in 2019? 4 MS. : Yes. Mm-hmm. 5 MR. How is it documented if 6 employees received training? 7 MS. : So, which training are we 8 talking about? Just any, or -? 9 MR. : Just -- 10 MR. : Just -. 11 MR. : -- specifically, we 12 talked about the SHU quarterly training, and 13 the annual refresher training. 14 MS. : Okay. So, for the annual 15 refresher training, Human Resources would 16 normally get with me. They would tell me the 17 dates that they wanted to do annual refresher 18 training. And what I would do is go onto the 19 roster program. They would let me know how 20 many staff to put in each day. I would go into 21 the program. I would assign them, and then, I 22 would back fill their positions with a non- 23 custody staff member. 24 So, that was documented on every quarterly 25 roster. So, what I used to do was, because I 15 1 read them, and sign them. And he would do the 2 training, and then just give me the sign in 3 sheet for ever bod that attended. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : And prior to them actually 6 starting their rotation in the SHU, this 7 training would have to be completed. 8 MS. Yes. 9 MR. All right. And it's a : 10 mandatory training? 11 MS. • Yes. 12 MR. : And what topics does the 13 training cover? 14 MS. We have a Special Housing 15 Unit slide show. That's the normal training. 16 MR. Yeah. 17 MS. : But what the training should 18 cover, outside of them doing that slide show, 19 that SHU, normally the SHU lieutenant does the 20 training. Outside of that slide show, they 21 should be discussing with them how to operate 22 the SHU program. We have psychology come in 23 and do a class on suicide prevention. Hunger 24 strikes. They should be talking to them about 25 how to fill out the documentation for 292s. 14 1 sat with the union, to determine which non- 2 custody staff member went to what post, I would 3 keep that, I would have them bid on what they 4 wanted to work. And I would keep that 5 documentation in the administrative office with 6 me. As far as the quarterly training goes, 7 every quarter, any staff member who bid to work 8 in SHU - in the Special Housing Unit, I'm 9 sorry. 10 Any staff member that bid to work there, 11 they had to go through mandatory quarterly 12 training. So, what I would do is, I would get 13 with the SHU lieutenant to figure out a date. 14 It has to be completed before the new quarter 15 starts. And he would tell me whatever - he or 16 she - would tell me whatever date they wanted 17 to do it. Every staff member that was on the 18 quarterly roster, that would be in SHU, was 19 scheduled to attend that training. We would do 20 it in a classroom setting, for, like, a four- 21 hour block. And all I would do was schedule 22 the training, let the SHU lieutenant know, make 23 sure he had the post orders, because all field 24 office the staff who were going to be up there 25 was supposed to go through the post orders, and 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 Just anything dealing with SHU, period, that lieutenant is supposed to go over it with them, as well as have them watch that slide show. MR. : So, are they allowed to work in the SHU without getting that training? MS. : Yes. However, they shouldn't because that training is documented. Every quarter, we have to send to the region that it was completed. And it also gets, I believe it gets keyed into their training file with Human Resources. MR. ensure that the MS. And who was required to receive that training? : The SHU lieutenant. MR. Okay. And then, what would your role be in that? Like, if someone didn't actually - someone would bid for that quarterly position, and actually wasn't able, for whatever reason, to attend the actual quarterly training, for the SHU, what is the protocol? What should have taken place? MS. : So, if, just say for instance, can I ive an example -- MR. : Absolutely. MS. : -- okay. So, just say for EFTA00117509 17 1 instance a staff member was out on a workman's 2 comp. They had missed the SHU training for 3 that reason, or they were on annual leave. 4 When they come back to work, I would coordinate 5 it with the SHU lieutenant, to have that person 6 go over the training with them. And then, they 7 would come back and make sure that they sign 8 that they completed the training. And again, I 9 kept that stored in, on file in my office. In 10 the admin office. 11 MR. : All right. So, it sounds 12 like you were the one who kind of keeps records 13 of who has done it, and who has not. You then 14 coordinate it with the SHU lieutenant, and say 15 if this person needs to take it. And then, 16 after they take it, they are supposed to come 17 to you aniiiiiiiit? 18 MS. : No. Not -. After they take 19 it, I would give the SHU lieutenant the sign-in 20 sheet. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : Because that person should 23 sign for the date that they actually completed 24 the trainiii iIIIIII 25 MR. : Okay. 18 1 MS. : So, the sign-in sheet would 2 have everybody that actually attended on the 3 scheduled day, and then the names of the people 4 who still needed to attend it. And once they 5 do it, they are supposed to sign, and sign for 6 the date that the do it. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : So, my next question would 9 have been, if any employee was not able to 10 attend training, was there a makeup training 11 session involved? 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : And that would be not by you, 14 that would be b the SHU lieutenant? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : Okay. And do they normally 17 get training? How long is the SHU training? 18 How long does it normally take? The quarterly 19 training. 20 MS. : We usually schedule it for a 21 four-hour block. 22 MR. : For how many days? 23 MS. : One. Just one day. 24 MR. So, one day, four hours? 25 MS. : Mm-hmm. I would schedule 19 1 everybody for that one day, for four hours. 2 MR. : And let's say if somebody 3 missed it, and they came back, they would have 4 to sit thiiiiiiihat four hours? 5 MS. : Well, once I would tell the 6 SHU lieutenant this person is back, you got to 7 make sure that they complete the training. I'm 8 not sure how he went about doing it with them. 9 Because I didn't attend the training. I never 10 attended the training. I just scheduled it. 11 MR. : Who schedules the trainers? 12 Who picks the trainers and schedules them to 13 teach the class? 14 MS. : Well, any lieutenant can 15 teach training for the Special Housing Unit. 16 During annual refresher training, every year 17 when we do it, it's a lieutenant assigned to do 18 it. 19 MR. : So, normally, it's a 20 lieutenant. So, in this case, if a C.O. missed 21 the training, they come back, the lieutenant 22 can technical) give the full training? 23 MS. : They can. 24 MR. : Okay. And how soon after 25 they come back from training should the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 lieutenant a training? MS. : Right away, if they are going to have them in SHU. I would -. I tried my best - because I was the admin lieutenant there for a long time - so, I tried my best to keep up with that, to make sure, as soon as this person came back, they did whatever they needed to do. MR. MS. MR. MS. MR. MR. MS. Okay. : But I can I -- Yeah. Sure. -- say something? Yeah. Absolutely. : Because you had asked me, can a person work in the Special Housing Unit without the training, and like I said, yes, but they shouldn't. However, you had a lot of non- custody staff who weren't required to take this training. Because they weren't in correctional services. MR. But the quarterly bidded people -- MS. : The quarterly bidded people EFTA00117510 21 1 MR. • -- were required. 2 MS. -- had to do it. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MS. That was it. 5 MR. Okay. 6 MR. : Yes. 7 MR. : Do you recall a C.O. by the 8 name of Tova Noel? 9 MS. Yes. 10 MR. MI•l. Do you know if in that : 11 quarter that - this would be June, July, August 12 of 2019 - if she was one of those C.O.s that 13 bidded for the SHU? 14 MS. : I don't remember. I think 15 she got a relief post in SHU, if I'm not 16 mistaken, and I do remember, she was out for a 17 while because she had injured, I don't know if 18 it was her ankle or something. She was out on 19 workman's comp. So, around that time, when we 20 did the training, she wasn't there. 21 MR. : She wasn't there. 22 MS. Hmm-mm. 23 MR. : Now -. 24 MR. Whoa, whoa. So, what 25 happened if she wasn't there? 22 1 MS. Once she came back, the SHU 2 lieutenant would have gotten with her to get 3 with her to have her take care of it, and have 4 her sign. MR. • Okay. Go ahead. 6 MR. : Okay. Is this the mandatory 7 quarterly SHU training for 2019? 8 MS. . Yes. 9 MR. The date shows 6/6/2019? 10 MS. • Mm-hmm. 11 MR. Is that the -? 12 MS. • Yeah. I'm sorry. Yes. 13 MR. Okay. And that is the sign- 14 in sheet? 15 MS. Yes. 16 MR. Okay. 17 MR. So, on the sign-in sheet, 18 it shows different dates on it. Do you know 19 what they would represent? 20 MS. : So, as I said, the 21 difference dates would be because, when we 22 actually had this training, these people 23 probably weren't here. So, once they came 24 back, they had to do the training, and sign 25 that they completed it on the date that they 23 1 completed it. 2 MR. And for any of these 3 people, did you review the training with them, 4 or was it always the SHU lieutenant that was 5 supposed to review the training with them? 6 MS. : No. I never did the 7 training with them. It was always the SHU 8 lieutenant, or whoever was assigned to SHU at 9 that time. 10 MR. : So, with this sign-in 11 sheet, would you, did you give that sign-in 12 sheet to the lieutenant to have them sign, or 13 would you go to the employee themselves and 14 have themiiiiiiit? 15 MS. : No. I gave this to the 16 lieutenant. 17 MR. : All right. So, in this 18 instance, we spoke with Tova Noel. She is 19 claiming that you went directly to her with 20 this, and asked her to sign it. Do you recall 21 that? 22 MS. No. 23 MR. • No? 24 MS. No. I remember speaking to 25 her, and she returned back to work, from her 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 injury, and I told her she had to do the training. MR. • Okay. MS. But I didn't have her sign this. MR. Do you remember her saying -. So, she returned to work on or around June 24th of 2021. MS. Mm-hmm. MR. : The SHU was her quarterly MR. : 2019. Sorry. MR. : -- sorry. 2019. The SHU was her quarterly bidded post. And she says that, on the 26th, is when she signed, that you came to her directly and said, you have to sign this, and she said she didn't get it from the lieutenant. She got it directly from you. Does that MS. No. MR. -- ring a bell at all? MS. No. MR. • All right. We just want to read you some quotes from her transcript. Just to see, you know, what your response is to EFTA00117511 25 26 1 this. We asked her, "Who was your direct 2 iiiiiiisor?" And she said, "Lieutenant 3 ." Would that be accurate? 4 MS. MiNo. 5 MR. : So, you didn't believe 6 that you were her direct supervisor? 7 MS. : Well, the operations 8 lieutenant on her shift, or the activities 9 lieutenant on her shift was her direct 10 supervisor. 11 MR. : Okay. So, that changes 12 every day, but I guess if we had one specific 13 one that was a constant, would that be you? 14 MS. : No. She was dealing with me 15 while she was out on workman's comp, because 16 while she was out, I was the one getting her 17 doctor's notes, and calling to check on her, or 18 if she had, like, a CA-7 that needed to be 19 filled out, so she can keep getting paid, I had 20 to fill that out. 21 MR. : Okay. So, while she was 22 out, up until at least the 24th of - lune - 23 2019, that's why she considered you her 24 supervisor, because you were the one dealing 25 directly with her? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. I'm assuming. MR. : Okay. MS. But once she returned to work, whoever that shift lieutenant was, would be who she would deal with. MR. : Okay. So then, we asked, it says - and this is me speaking - "You mentioned you didn't remember ever going to quarterly SHU training. This is a sign-in sheet for quarterly SHU training. I just want you to, is this your signature on there for June 26th, 2019?" And she responds, "You see how I'm the last one on the bottom of all of them?" I say, "Correct." She says, "Because I wasn't at the training when I came in," she responded. "Did they provide it to you one on one, though?" She said, "No." I said, "So, how come?" She said, "Because when I came back from an injury, the lieutenant asked me to sign because when they had program review, they need to show that I received the training. But I never did. She just asked me to sign." "That's why I wonder why, who asked you to do that?" I said. And she said, "Lieutenant 27 1 MS. EiMm-hrmt. 2 MR. : I said, "So, that 3 supervisor you mentioned was your first line 4 supervisor, asked you to sign without providing 5 you the training?" She said, "Yes." I said, 6 "And she didn't, like, provide you anything to 7 review?" She said, "No." And I said, "She 8 didn't go over anything with you?" She said, 9 "No." I said, "Did you discuss this with her, 10 that how can you sign something without being 11 provided the training?" 12 She said, "Well, I just told her I wasn't 13 here. I was out on an injury. She said she 14 knows, but she needed me to sign it because 15 they need it for a program review." I said, 16 "What's her first name?" And she responded, 17 " ." I said, "And is she a 18 lieutenant?" And Noel said, "She's a - I don't 19 know what she is now - but she is not at MCC 20 anymore. She's at somewhere in Jersey." So, 21 with all that being said, what is your response 22 to Ms. Noel with her statements to us? 23 MS. Her statement is partially 24 true. 25 MR. Okay. 28 1 MS. I did explain to her that 2 she needed to complete the training because we 3 had to have it done for our program review. 4 However, I had her do that training with the 5 SHU lieutenant. I would have never had her 6 sign something that she didn't review. And the 7 reason why her name is last on that list is 8 because she came back to work at that time. 9 MR. : Okay. So -. 10 MR. : Did you ask her to sign the 11 document for the program review, prior to the 12 program review, without her actually taking the 13 training? 14 MS. : No. I explained to her that 15 she had to complete the training because when 16 we had our program review, they review these 17 documents, and that is part of what they call 18 our working papers. And if one person has - or 19 whoever - has it missed, we get a write-up for 20 that. 21 MR. : Did you speak with Lieutenant 22 IIII, and instruct him that, hey, listen, he 23 needs to ive Tova Noel the training? 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : And did he ever confirm with EFTA00117512 29 30 1 you that he did provide it to her? 2 MS. : No. I just got the sign-in 3 sheet back with her name signed. 4 MR. : Oh, so, you didn't give it to 5 her. You ave it to the lieutenant. And -- 6 MS. : Yeah. 7 MR. -- the lieutenant got her to 8 sign in, and rovide it back to you? 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. So, she is saying you 11 came directly to her. She didn't_ggt any 12 training from either Lieutenant IIII, who was 13 the SHU lieutenant at the time, or provided any 14 kind of sheets to review. She said - and we 15 can go into reater detail of what she said -- 16 MS. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. -- but she said that you 18 didn't, when she said this to you, you said, I 19 just need it for the program review, and you 20 asked her not to date it, and she said that she 21 intentionally wanted to date it, to show what 22 date that she did this on. 23 MS. MThat's not accurate at all. 24 MR. : Okay. So, please, 25 explain to us. And just for the record, we are 1 not saying that what she said was accurate. 2 That's wh we're asking you -- 3 MS. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : -- to just clarify all of 5 this, of what exactly happened. 6 MS. : No. The only conversation 7 that she and I had, and if I remember 8 correctly, it was on her first day back, if I 9 am not mistaken. Her first day back to work, 10 because she came to me to find out where she 11 was working. And when we had that 12 conversation, I did say to her that she had to 13 complete the training, you know, because we got 14 to make sure we are in line with everything for 15 program review. But I never gave her anything 16 to sign. At all. 17 MR. : So, when she says you 18 specifically gave her this sign-in sheet, you 19 are sayiniiiiiiiid not? 20 MS. : No. I did not. And I 21 definiteliiiiiiii iiell her not to date it. 22 MR. : All right. So, when she 23 says that, you know, let's go back and read it. 24 She specifically says, "Because when I came 25 back from an injury, the lieutenant asked me to 31 1 sign because when they had program review, they 2 need to show that I received the training, but 3 I never did. She just asked me to sign." So, 4 her saying that you asked her to sign that, is 5 inaccurate? 6 MS. : Yes, it is. 7 MR. Okay. And are you 8 confident with that? Because this is, like, an 9 under oath. She was under oath, and you are 10 now under oath. So, now -- 11 12 MS. MMm-hrrim. MR. : -- we have two 13 discrepancies of what happened. 14 MS. : Yes. I am confident with 15 that. 16 MR. : Do you recall, 17 specifically? Can you place yourself back into 18 that conversation? Do you remember 19 specificaiii iiiis happening or not happening? 20 MS. : I remember specifically 21 speaking to her about it. And I told her she 22 had to complete the training, but I did not 23 have her si n an thing. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : I didn't. I did tell her 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 that, after she did the training, she was going to have to sign the sheet. And I told her she had to complete it because of program review. I did do that. MR. : Okay. Do you recognize - hold on - this stuff that we are giving you here. Can you just let us know what this information is? And what the sign-in sheet is? MS. : Okay. So, this is another sign-in sheet for training. This one would be for the -. Dr. was the chief psychologist. So, that would be discussing suicide trainin MR. lust -. MS. This is -. MR. So, that one was suicide prevention training? MS. : This one was. Yes. MR. Okay. MS. : This is Dr. , again, but this is a different training. This was in 2018. MR. Okay. So, the one that we are on top, though, that is the sign-in for, it says June 6, 2019. And then, again, on the EFTA00117513 33 1 bottom, it sa s T. Noel. 2 MS. Yes. 3 MR. • And then, does it have a 4 date next to that one, too? 5 MS. June 26. 6 MR. . Okay. So, that was also 7 the lune 26, 2019. So, it looks like she had 8 the quarterly, the quarterly post training, or 9 quarterly, what do you call it -- 10 MR. SHU training. 11 MR. : SHU training. And 12 then, the suicide prevention training, both 13 signed on the same date. 14 MS. EiMm-hmm. 15 MR. : Did you give that - 16 either one of those - sign-in sheets directly 17 to Ms. Noel? 18 MS. No. 19 MR. • No. 20 MS. Because Dr. would 21 keep her own sheet. And also, the SHU 22 lieutenant, who completed the training, that 23 person would get a copy of this, as well. And 24 then, when everything was completed, they would 25 give me back the sign-in sheets. 34 1 MR. Okay. So, if this was 2 all completed, if the training was done on June 3 6, 2019, when would you get the sign-in sheets? 4 MS. : Whenever the SHU lieutenant 5 brought down to me. Brought them back to me. 6 MR. : Okay. So, in this case, 7 do you believe it would have been some time 8 shortly after June 6, 2019? 9 MS. : Well, I don't remember that. 10 But I do remember, because these other people 11 who weren't there, they had to do the exact 12 same thing, and the SHU lieutenant got with all 13 of all them, and had them all do their 14 training, and sign for their days. I didn't do 15 any of 16 MR. : Okay. So, and the fact 17 that, when was the - prior to T. Noel - when 18 was the last date on that? 19 MS. : June, it looks the 23rd, and 20 then, June 20th. 21 MR. Okay. So, the two prior 22 were both in the 20s. And you don't believe 23 you went direct to either of those two, either? 24 MS. : No. I didn't. 25 MR. So, do you -- 35 1 MS. MI didn't. 2 MR. : -- do you believe that 3 Lieutenant - would it have been Lieutenant 4 that would have provided this to you, when it 5 was all done? 6 MS. MYes. 7 MR. : Okay. So, he wouldn't 8 have provided that back to you until after June 9 26, 2019, after Ms. Noel signed? 10 MS. : No. Because at the time, if 11 I had this, then the last person before her was 12 June 23rd. So, took care of all of these 13 people, and then, he gave it back to me. I 14 can't remember if he just came back after the 15 6th, when everybody was done, and got it. Or 16 if he came back. Because I kept them in a 17 binder. I keep all of these in a binder, in 18 the admin lieutenant's office. So, all he had 19 to do was just come get the binder. You see 20 what I'm saying? So, he could have came and 21 got it, had them do whatever they needed to do. 22 And the sheet would have already been in the 23 binder. And then, he keeps the copy from Dr. 24 as well. They are supposed to keep a 25 binder in the SHU lieutenant's office, with 36 1 these same forms. 2 MR. Okay. So, on this 3 specific training, this is, these were the 4 statements that were made, I said, "So, there 5 is another training that you - it says that you 6 conducted on also June 26th, 2019, for SHU 7 suicide prevention training. Did you also not 8 receive that training?" Ms. Noel responded, 9 "Yeah. I didn't." I responded, "You did not 10 receive that training?" She said, "No." I 11 said, "Did you receive -. 12 So, there's slides in the back that show 13 that the training, shows the training and how 14 they conducted it. Did they provide you with 15 those slides?" And she responded, "No because 16 I wasn't there." I said, "You weren't there?" 17 And she responds, "I was out on injury." I 18 said, "Okay. Can you - when were you out on 19 injury? What were the dates?" And she 20 responded, "From March 2019 to I came back in 21 June. So, when I came back in lune, that's 22 when I was told to sign this." Again, is this 23 - you believe it's Lieutenant that 24 actually told her to sign it? 25 MS. : It should have been. Yes. EFTA00117514 37 1 MR. Did you -- 2 MS. Yes. 3 MR. • -- but it was not you? 4 MS. No. 5 MR. : And are you confident it 6 wasn't you? 7 MS. To my recollection, yes. 8 MR. : Okay. Shortly there 9 later, I said, "But when you came back, was it 10 around the 26th when they asked you to sign 11 those?" And she responded, "I came back in 12 June. I don't recall the date exactly." I 13 said, "Okay." She said, "But I remember the 14 day I came back into work, and the lieutenant 15 asked me to go see Lieutenant . And she 16 asked me to sign, and I said, but I wasn't 17 here. I was out on injury. 18 And she said she's aware, but they need me 19 to sign for program review." I said, "Okay." 20 She said, "So, I signed." And I said, "So, 21 both trainings, when you signed, they didn't 22 actually ever provide you anything?" She said, 23 "No." I said, "Verbally? Electronically? 24 Nothing?" She said, "No." I said, "Okay. And 25 that was on the date that was signed that that 38 1 happened?" Ms. Noel said, "Actually, she told 2 me not to date it. 3 I remember when I was signing. She said, 4 don't date it." And I said, "But you dated it 5 anyway? Did you have a conversation about 6 that?" And she said, "No." I said, "After you 7 dated it, she didn't say, why did you date it? 8 Or anything like that?" She responded, "No." 9 So, she is saying al this time, that 10 specifically, that the lieutenant said to go 11 see you, and that you had her sign this 12 information. 13 MS. That's not true. 14 MR. • It's not accurate? 15 MS. No. It's not. And if the 16 lieutenant that was on shift would have told 17 her to come to see me, it was her first day 18 back. So, when they returned to work for a 19 work-related injury, they are supposed to bring 20 in a note from the doctor, clearing them to be 21 back at work. So, she would have came to see 22 me, to give me a copy of that note. Because in 23 order for her to work, she had to have that 24 note from her doctor. 25 MR. Okay. 39 1 MS. That, and also, too, 2 probably to find out about what her schedule 3 would be, or where she is supposed to be 4 working at. That's the only thing that I could 5 think of. But we did have the conversation 6 about the training. But at no time did I ask 7 her to sin an thing. 8 MR. : Okay. So, what 9 conversation did you have about the training? 10 MS. : I just told her that she 11 needed to complete the training. Because part 12 of her post - if I remember right - it was a 13 relief post. So, I don't think she was 14 assigned to SHU every day. 15 MR. : Now, did you maybe tell 16 her sign this training, sign this form, because 17 I have a program review up. Co do your 18 training. Don't date it because you didn't do 19 the trainiiiiiii? 20 MS. : No. I would have never told 21 her to sign it, because she hadn't completed 22 it. And I definitely would not have told her 23 not to date it. 24 MR. : Okay. Because again, she 25 is saying - and this is a question I asked - 40 1 "But did you do this per the direction of your 2 supervisor?" She said, "Supervisor, yes." And 3 I said, "So, did she specifically say you must 4 sign this?" Ms. Noel said, "Yes." And I said, 5 "Okay. And iiiiiii." So, she is claiming,that was ?" And Ms. 6 Noel said, " 7 under oath, under penalty of, you know, you 8 know, of perjury, which is a criminal offense, 9 which is - a ain - you are under oath. 10 MS. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : That you specifically 12 told her to sign this. That's where I just 13 wanted -. I don't want to trip up, because 14 this right now is more of an administrative 15 thing. 16 MS. Mm-hmm. 17 MR. I don't want to bring it 18 to a criminal. 19 MS. Mm-hmm. 20 MR. If, you know, under oath, 21 under the penalties of perjury, which is 22 statute 18 USC 1001, false statements, are you 23 confident that you did not ask her to sign 24 this? 25 MS. Yes. I am. EFTA00117515 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 MR. Okay. So, even though she has her attorneys present when this is happening, and she is specifically il) throughout all of these questions, MS. ■: Yes. Because she dealt with me the whole time that she was out of work. And again, like I said, I believe I got her to talk to her on her first day back to work. MR. : Mm-hmm. MS. ErSo, I do not, at no time, ever recall telling her to sign anything, or not date anything. I do remember telling her she had to complete this training, because she was assigned to SHU. If you guys look at these other dates, for all these other people, and I'm just sa in -- MR. : Mm-hmm. MS. : I know they don't have anything to do with it. They're all the same just like hers. When they came back, the SHU lieutenant got with them - and these are all different dates, same thing - to have them complete this training. I didn't have them do it. 42 1 MR. Okay. 2 MR. rAre those all SHU employees? : 3 Can you verif - 4 MS. : At the time -- 5 MR. -- at the time. 6 MS. : -- yes, they were. 7 MR. All ri ht. So, if we go 8 and speak with Lieutenant , do you believe 9 he is goin to say, yes, I had her sign this? 10 MS. : I would hope so. 11 MR. : Okay. But you are 12 absolutely confident - under oath, again, you 13 could be prosecuted if we find out you are 14 lying - that this, you did not have her sign 15 these documents? 16 MS. : No. I did not have her sign 17 these. I do not recall having her sign these 18 at all. 19 MR. Okay. 20 MS. : At all. 21 MR. And who do you believe 22 had her sin these? 23 MS. : It should have been the SHU 24 lieutenant. 25 MR. Okay. 43 1 MS. That took care of that. 2 MR. . And again, do you 3 believe, it sounded like you said that the SHU 4 lieutenant could have come into your office, 5 retrieved these documents, and -- 6 8 MS. WellM -- 7MR. -- had her sign it? MS. : -- the binder for the sign- 9: in sheets for the Special Housing Unit was in 10 my office. Because I kept up with all of 11 these. I maintained all of these forms, just 12 to make sure that everybody stayed up on what 13 it was that they were supposed to do, because 14 when we have our program review, those 15 documents would be reviewed in the office that 16 I worked in. We all were responsible for them. 17 It wasn't just me. My office was opened. 18 Every lieutenant had a key to it. 19 MR. Mm-hmm. 20 MS. . And I am not at all saying 21 that would have come in my office and 22 taken some something that he shouldn't have 23 taken, or whatever the case ma be. I remember 24 having a conversation with to tell him, 25 when these people come back to work, they need 44 1 to get their SHU training done, because all of 2 these people were out on the 6th, when the 3 training occurred. 4 MR. : Okay. And you recall 5 specifically telling Ms. Noel, get the training 6 done? 7 MS. : I recall specifically 8 telling her she had to do the training. 9 MR. : Okay. But you are 10 positive you didn't have her sign those 11 documents? 12 MS. • Yes. 13 MR. Okay. 14 MS. . As far as I can recall, yes, 15 sir, I am ositive I didn't. 16 MR. : Okay. Great. So, I 17 guess we'll have to revisit that with 18 Lieutenant IIII. Sorry. I hand it back to 19 you. I just figured it was better for me to 20 read it. 21 MR. Yeah.. 22 MR. : Being that I was the one 23 on this transcript. 24 MR. : No problem. It looks like we 25 covered some of them. So, just to clarify, who EFTA00117516 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 was responsible to make sure that all employees received the trainings? MS. You mean for SHU? MR. For the SHU. Who was : responsible to make sure that all the SHU employees received mandatory quarterly SHU training? MS. MR. MS. MR. MS. MR. : The SHU lieutenant. Okay. : And me. And me. You? : Because I scheduled it. : Okay. And if they are not - if those employees - are not there, when they come back, who is responsible to make sure that, hey, listen, it's taking - they receive the training? I know you mentioned that you make sure that they come back and sign the sheet. But who actually is supposed to give them the training? MS. : Well, I didn't say that they come back and sign the sheet. I said that, when they come back, they are supposed to complete the training, and then sign the sheet. MR. : Okay. So, and the SHU 46 1 lieutenant is responsible to make sure that 2 they get the training? 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. Okay. 5 MS. : And the administrative 6 lieutenant. However, it's not written 7 anywhere. As the administrative lieutenant, 8 that's just what I did. All administrative 9 lieutenants don't do that. Because SHU is SHU. 10 It belongs to the SHU lieutenant. But because 11 we had gotten a bad rating on our previous 12 reviews, pretty much, they had me maintaining 13 all of our paperwork. So, I kept med trips. I 14 kept rosters. I kept daily security 15 inspections. And whatever paperwork that had 16 to do with correctional services, I was 17 responsible for maintaining it. So, this was 18 something that I just maintained on my own, to 19 make sure that it got done. So that, the 20 department, as a whole, when the time came, 21 wouldn't iiiiiiitten up for it. 22 MR. : Is there a possibility that, 23 when Noel came back to work, you told her, hey, 24 listen, sign off on the paperwork of the sign- 25 in sheet, saying that you received the training 47 1 because you are back to work, sign off on it, 2 and have the SHU lieutenant provide you the 3 training? 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : Is it standard practice for 6 employees to sign the sheet, even if they never 7 received the training? 8 MS. : No. It shouldn't be. I 9 don't have them do that. 10 MR. : Has there been instances, 11 that you are aware of, where an employee was 12 signed the sheet, and that employee never 13 received the training? 14 MS. : Not that I am aware of. 15 MR. : This is the first incident 16 you -? 17 MS. : Well, this is the first time 18 I'm even hearing about any of this, with her. 19 Because I knew she came back to work, and she 20 was supposed to have the training. 21 MR. : Do you know if she 22 conducted the training or not? 23 MS. : I have no idea. 24 MR. So, you are not even sure 25 if she did or not? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 MS. : No. Hmm-mm. MR. And being that -. MR. But when you spoke with her about the need for her to take the training, tell me a little bit more about that conversation. What did she say? MS. : She just said, okay. Noel really didn't talk -. Can I -? MR. : Go ahead. MS. • Okay. MR. Please. MS. Oh, okay. MR. You know, again, this is MS. : Noel really didn't talk a lot. To any of us. You know what I'm saying? She would come to work, when she would come to work. And she would do whatever it is that she needed to do, but as far as my interactions with her, it was really only during her times of needing some time off, or scheduling. She may have needed to work a different shift, or whatever the case may be. So, we really never actually had long conversations or anything like that. It was always business, like, as it EFTA00117517 49 1 should be. You know what I'm saying? 2 Supervisor to subordinate. And like I said, 3 when she came in that day, if I remember right, 4 it was her first day back. MR. : That you had a 6 conversation with her? 7 MS. : Yeah. Because she would 8 have had to give me that letter, saying that 9 she was cleared to be back at work. 10 MR. : But during that day, is 11 that when she signed these documents? 12 MS. I don't know. 13 MR. . Okay. 14 MS. I'm not sure if it was 15 during that day or not. I talked to her, and I 16 told her she had to complete the SHU training. 17 I do remember sa ing that to her. 18 MR. : Okay. Now, this is going 19 to be the last part of the transcript that I 20 read, where I said to Ms. Noel, "And what do 21 you - now that you've experienced this - what 22 do you blame that on? Do you also blame it on, 23 like, poor management, or, like, the lack of 24 manpower? What are your thoughts on that?" 25 Ms. Noel responded, "It's both, but every time 50 1 something happens, the officers get in trouble. 2 And the problem is, it starts from the top. 3 Because if my supervisor is telling me to 4 falsify documents and I do it, I'm in trouble. 5 But Lieutenant got promoted. You 6 understand? Like, the problem starts from the 7 top, and it comes all the way down." So, she 8 maintained, throughout the entire interview - 9 this is now a e 449 of the interview -- 10 MS. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : -- this was you. You 12 specifically. So, if you are saying you 100 13 percent didn't do this, why would she say that 14 you were the one? Does she have an axe to 15 grind wit." Is there something -. 16 MS. : We had no problems with each 17 other, that I'm aware of. But again, we 18 didn't, we didn't have regular interactions 19 with each other. Because when she came to 20 work, she was not on my shift. First of all. 21 When she was at work, she barely ever worked 22 the day shift, if I remember. And I was at 23 work during the day shift. If she had an issue 24 on the shift with anything, she wouldn't have 25 come to me. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 She would have went to the operations or the activities lieutenant. She was injured, if I remember, I think it was her ankle, but I'm not sure what it was. But once she got injured, that's really more when our interactions started with each other, because she was out of work for such a long time. But we didn't have any problems with each other whatsoever. MR. : So, why do you believe that she would have stated, with such clarity, that you had her sign those documents, as opposed to Lieutenant IIII, who we discussed also, witiiiiiiiding being the SHU lieutenant? MS. : Probably because I was the first person that spoke to her about it, and when she came back to work. That would be the only thin that think of. MR. : Okay. Do you think she took it on herself to, then, sign it? After the conversation with you, as opposed to you actually h sically handing her the documents? MS. : No. I didn't give her the - MR. That's --52 1 MS. : -- the forms to sign. 2 MR. : -- right. That's what 3 I'm saying is, like, do you think, in her mind, 4 you said you needed to conduct the SHU training 5 and sign the form, or something to that effect. 6 Then she took it on herself to just go sign the 7 form, without ever actually taking the 8 training? 9 MS. : I couldn't answer that, sir. 10 I'm sorry. I don't know what she was thinking. 11 MR. : Yeah. No. I mean, we 12 just have to -. So, if she is stating this, 13 and if we go to Lieutenant IIII, and he says, I 14 didn't have her sign it, I'm just trying - 15 we're just we of to try to, you know -- 16 MS. : Because -- 17 MR. : -- as you know, with this 18 investigation, there are a ton of different 19 elements. 20 MS. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. This is just one of many. 22 MS. Mm-hmm. 23 MR. But we have to reconcile 24 them. 25 MS. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00117518 53 1 MR. So, you know, all of this 2 will be written up in, like, a, you know, a 3 report and all that. So, it's just one of 4 those things that we have got to make sure that 5 we have, to the best of our ability, a 6 reconciliation for each element, and this has 7 to do with a staff member not receiving the 8 proper training, and also, according to her, 9 being instructed by her supervisor to 10 specifically sign when the supervisor knew that 11 she didn't conduct the training. 12 MS. EiMm-hrra. 13 MR. : So, again, just, I do 14 want to emphasize that this is under oath. So, 15 this would be, like, if you were in a court of 16 law. 17 MS. EiMm-hrra. 18 MR. : That you are confident 19 with your statements. 20 MS. : Mm-hmm. Yes. I don't - 21 like I said - I don't recall having her sign 22 anything. 23 MR. • Okay. 24 MS. Because I wouldn't have done 25 that. I told her she had to complete the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 training. Now, once she left my office and once she got up in SHU, and got with the SHU lieutenant, I don't know if the training was ever completed. MR. MS. MR. MS. MR. • Right. I wouldn't know that. • At -- I wouldn't. -- at the time, though, on lune 26th, 2019, would have this sign-in sheet been in that folder that you referred to? MS. : Yes. It would have been in that binder that I had. It should have been, anyway, because -- MR. All right. MS. again, once the SHU : lieutenant completed the training, and got both of the sheets back from the chief psychologist, then they would bring me the sheets, and then I would put them in the binder. So, these other people that did their training, he had them sign off the sheet that we already have from the 6th. And then, he knew where the binder was. And again, I'm not saying that he did anything at all. IIII, I'm saying. But I kept 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 these forms, and I had them in the binder. And I do not, at no time, remember telling her to sign anything that she didn't do the training for. MR. : And did she, would she have had the ability to - sorry, the ability - to obtain those sign-in sheets from your binder MS. No. MR. • -- and sent them herself? MS. No. MR. : No. She couldn't have done that? MS. No. MR. So, either yourself or Lieutenant would have had to have actually obtained those sheets, and asked her to sign? MS. MYes. MR. : So, one of the two of you had to have actually had her sign those forms? MS. MYes. MR. : And that just go