5/4/2021 9:05 AM

5/4/2021 9:05 AM UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK x • • • • X Date: Time: Participants: [ 1 [UM1] EFTA01250818 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [II]: [II]: Hey there. .]: - you- he's four and a half months. Say hi, come on, say hi to her. [U/I) [II]: Hi, hello. Hello. [II]: Say hi, get your baby. [II]: Hello. [II]: On (U/I) [II]: Hello. [II]: Say hi. Say hi. Get your baby. (U/I) baby. [II]: Oh, look at you guys. [II]: Say hi. Okay. Okay. Would you like some water? [UM1): No thanks. III): I'm good, thank you. [II]: Happy to help in any way I possibly can. [II]: No, you're- you've been more than gracious already, and I thank you for your time. [II]: Oh, you're welcome. [II]: Do you mind if we sit down? [II]: No, please that's- do you want one of those? I could get another chair if you want to sit there. (UM1): [U/I) [II]: They are good lookin' dogs. That's nice. [II]: Yeah, they're sweet. [II]: Good for them. Okay, um, you're probably under some time constraints. [II]: I have an hour. [II]: Okay. [II]: Yeah. But I have a little less than an hour because I have to walk my dogs. EFTA01250819 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CUM1): Okay. [II]: (U/I) not coming until 4:45. [II]: Well then, we will try to get this done as- [II]: Okay. - quickly as we can and then if not, we can always reschedule. I'll (U/I1 [II]: Are you recording this? [II]: I am, is that okay? [II]: Yes, go for it. [II]: Okay. Alright, let me get this all set up. So, I'm Special Agent This is [II]: Okay. [II]: Uh, you can call me III]: Okay. [II]: You're fine as far as that goes. Um, you are not in any trouble, uh- (II]: No, I know. [II]: You- I'm sure you already kinda have an idea in terms of what we're looking, uh, into and things like that, but just, uh, for clarity's sake, we are looking into some things that went on at Zorro Ranch, here in New Mexico. Uh, we've been given some information that you might be familiar with the ranch and with Jeff Epstein- Epstein. Uh- [II]: [U/I1 starting to watch [U/I) [II]: - and maybe some of the other people, so, we wanted to talk to you about it. Um, you're under no obligation to talk to us. [II]: Okay. [II]: Uh, you can kick us out if you want to kick us out. Uh, we don't plan on yelling or whatever it is that they do on TV, we plan on being incredibly nice. EFTA01250820 3 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 II): Okay. II): So, uh, as long as you don't try to hit one of us, I think we'll all- [II): You won't have a problem. [II]: - I think we'll all just be okay. [II]: Not at all. [II]: Okay, so- [II]: Happy to help. [II]: We'll start off with the easy questions, and I know you're pressed for time, so we'll probably segue into some pretty direct questions after that. [II]: Okay. [II]: Usually it- we spend more time, uh, but don't take offense to it if we just kinda jump forward. [II]: That's fine. [II]: Uh- [II]: I'll do my best to answer it however I can. [II]: Okay. So, what is your full name? [U]: I don't need to (U/I] [II]: And what's your date of birth? [M]: [II]: And how old are you right now, if you don't mind me asking? [Ill: Oh, U. [II]: Okay. And where do you live? [E] [II]: What's your address? [a]: excuse me. [II]: Okay. And I've got a phone number for you: [II]: That's business, yes. [II]: Okay. Is that a good number to contact you at? EFTA01250821 4 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 II): Yeah, or my cell that I called you at. II): Okay. And, despite the fact that we're sitting here, how are you employed? [II]: I'm a but that's what I did at Zorro Ranch since, uh- for thirty-five years. [II]: So, for thirty-four years? [II]: Thirty-five. [II]: Thirty-five years. [II]: Twenty-four years as a [II]: Okay. Well, you seem to be a jack of all trades. You can fixIll [III: Nell, I mostly do this. I do this very rarely, but sure, people who have neuropathy, recently, otherwise it's [II]: Okay. [II]: Yeah. [II]: And just so you know, we'll take notes while you're talking. [II]: That's fine. [II]: It always looks really rude, `cause I'm not looking at you while you're talking but- (III: I do that with my- [II]: Yeah. [II]: - with my clients - III]: Okay. [II]: - I get it. [II]: I just- [II]: No, no, I understand completely. [II]: - I don't want to come across that way, so. Okay, uh, so, for twenty-four years, for thirty-four years. EFTA01250822 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [U]: Thirty-five. [U]: Thirty-five. Sorry. So, uh, started back in and then, um, I've been out here since and then I've been a since [M]: What part of Uh, : I was born in [Eh : You were? [MP : I was. [U]: My family moved to [M]: Nice. My family moved to [M]: Did they? (UI: Yeah. Okay, uh, what- what qualifications do you have to be a and to be a Well, I got cer- as a I got certified through the and then, uh, through, uh, -and associates, and then I went over to England and started (U/11 with (U/11. Urn, he founded the in London, or n- outside of London. And then I kinda [U/11 him for about three weeks- - 5:041: Okay. [M] : - while I was getting license certification. [1.]: Okay. [U): And here, I've a [1. : Okay. [MI] : And that makes you a Okay. EFTA01250823 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [II]: Yeah. And this is my passion. [II]: Is it? [II]: Yeah. Oh, I love it. [II]: Good. Good for you. I may come see you at some point. [II]: Yeah, solution, focus -based III]: Good. Alright, um, for the most part, that's the background that I wanna go over, so now we'll kinda jump into some of the other stuff, again, just `cause you're kinda pressed for time. Um, you know that we're looking into Zorro Ranch and Jeff Epstein. Can you tell us how you're familiar- how you're familiar with, uh, Jeff and what the- and what the ranch - [II]: I was introduced to go over there as a by a woman named you probably have her information, too. [II): Yeah. III): She was, I think, a massage therapist for them. She was also a T think she's recently retired, but I'm not sure, so I can't speak for her. I haven't talked to her ear-to-ear, but she's the one who said, "would you like to do I (U/I] clients that- if you'd like that." [II): Okay. [II]: So, that's how I originally was introduced to Zorro Ranch. [II]: Okay. Was she employed there? III]: She- I mean, she worked for them whenever they hired her for a massage. [II]: Okay. [II]: I don't- I can't really speak, `cause I don't know. [II]: Okay. [II]: I mean, she was working for them and then she- they want- Ghislaine Maxwell wanted worked on and so, I'm the EFTA01250824 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that they hired. [II]: Okay. [II]: Yeah. [II): Ghislaine Maxwell? [II]: Right. [II): What year was that? [II]: I think the first, uh, first treatment was probably in And the last one was in when I- [II): Hey, sweetheart. [II]: come on sweetie, go lie down. Sorry. I don't want him to g- [UM1]: No, no. [II]: Goof your pants up. [II]: No, you're okay. [II]: I'll put him on a leash. [II]: You're okay. I have dogs. I'm pretty sure you- do you- [UM1]: I do. (II): Yes. [II]: Yeah. [II]: Yeah, we'll be okay. We'll survive it. [II]: Good. [II]: Okay, so, I'm sorry, in (II]: I think was the very first treatment, I mean, I- I didn't do it regularly, but I- whenever they came into town, or I'd- actually, it was Ghislaine that I worked on mostly. [II]: Okay. III]: So, Jeffrey, I think I, I'd have to look at my records, but Jeffrey, I worked probably three times on from [II]: Okay. [II]: I hardly ever saw the man. Okay. EFTA01250825 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [II]: Okay, so we're lookin' on and off from [II]: Correct. [II]: Okay. And you worked in- on Ghislaine mostly - [III: A 1- ICW): - uh, but Jeff sometimes? III): It's- no, I'm talking- I mean, like, Jeff, maybe three times in all those years. I don't know if it's two times, three times, but that was it. He was hardly ever there. [II]: Okay. [Il]: Yeah. [II]: And you said- [II]: If he was there, then I- I didn't see him. [II]: Okay. And you said that you have records for all of that stuff? [II]: I mean, in my invoice. When I say- [II]: Invoicing - [II]: Invoices, yeah. [II]: Okay. Who would you invoice? [II]: Zorro Ranch. [II]: Zorro Ranch. [II]: And I don't remember the name of the c- the housekeepers at the time. But then, so- I don't know what you want me- I'm just going to wait until you ask me questions versus just telling you my experience. Would that be better? [II]: If y- if you feel like there's something important that you need to say, you say it, what- I'm really linear, so, I'll- I'll make sure that, if we start to get off track, we'll come back on track. [II]: Okay. And again, I don't mean it in a rude way, we're just pressed for time. EFTA01250826 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [II]: No, that's fine. [II]: So, go ahead, please. [II]: So, all I was gonna say is, I would go there and since I live in they would- um, she would want a treatment at nighttime, so I would drive- I would do that work at night after I finished my work here. Then I would go and I would wait in the kitchen until the housekeepers, and again, I don't remember their names, but, they would- I'd wait in the kitchen and then they would call me into the- into the library, whatever you call it, and then Ghislaine would come in and I'd work on there. [II]: Okay. H- how were Jeff and Ghislaine related, if at all? [II]: Companions, or- [II]: Companions. III): I don't really know the intimacy details but my understanding, back then, I think that they'd been together for years, or whatever, and I think she sort of presented that she- she would manage his properties, but I think that they had a relationship, but I don't really know the details because that's not a part of my business. [II]: Okay. So- [II]: I mean, I never saw them where they were in any- III]: Together -together. [II]: Yeah, together. [II]: In any sort of- [II]: Yeah, obvious way. [II]: I guess romantic way- [III]: Right, exactly. [II]: Or obvious way. Sure. How many times would you say, and it doesn't have to be exact, how many times would you say you were out at the ranch between ' ..) EFTA01250827 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [II]: Uh, I'm guessing. (U/I] um- [II]: Sure. [II]: Maybe thirty? In years. (II): As far as that invoicing goes, `cause that might help us narrow that down a little bit or get a little bit more exact, would you have any problem turning that stuff over to us at some point? [II]: No, I mean, I- [II]: Not the originals, obviously. [II]: Right. [II]: Like, copies. [II]: I mean, I can give you information from it. [II]: Yeah. [II]: Yeah. (II): Okay. Would you- would you do that? [II- 10:00]: But what I would do- what I would do in an invoice, is would- would say, ' session- Ghislaine," and so if went back and looked, I would see Jeffrey was in there. Like- III): Okay. [II]: -like, it'd be, ' for thirty-five min- uh, forty-five minutes," to Jeffrey, and Ghislaine it could have been two hours. (II]: Okay. Yeah. (II]: Would you put something like that together for us? I mean, it doesn't have to be today or anything, but maybe just like a- [II]: I'll write something up. [II]: - like a list or a spreadsheet - [II]: Sure, yeah. [II]: - or something like that. [II]: I can write it up and just give you the dates or how many times I worked on them. EFTA01250828 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [II]: Okay. [II]: Is that what you'd like? Like- [.]: Yeah. [II]: - how many times I worked on Jeffrey, and how many times - III]: Yeah. That w- yeah- [II]: - I worked on Ghislaine. That's fine? [II]: - yeah, dates, dates and how many- and- and who it was that you saw that day. [II]: Okay. Sure. [II]: Did you ever, uh, do any other work out there? [II]: No. [II]: Did you ever work on anybody else while you were out there? [II]: No. No. (II): Okay. (II): The only thing that I remember doing, and you have to bear with me because I had a car accident, but it was back in but so, it affects my memory a little bit, but, that's why I have to refer to- to, like, looking at invoices, but, um, there was one- one time when I worked on Jeffrey, he asked one of his massage to come down and have me teach him- her how to do [II]: Do you remember who that was? [II]: So, she would sit- no, no idea. Who the name was or anything. So she came down and pulled up a chair and I'm telling her how to do- it- do a session, which isn't really teaching very much in that- [II]: (Laughter) [II]: - He liked my work. When I did it, again, I only worked on him a few times, but it was very professional. (II]: Okay. EFTA01250829 12 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Yeah. And you said that your sessions typically lasted an hour? Is that right? Oh, I mean, it's whatever they- however people want it, but usually it's an hour, but sometimes she'd want extra time, Ghislaine would want extra time, so, like, an hour, hour and a half. [II]: Okay. Would you say on average it's about an hour? [II]: Yeah. [II]: Okay. [II]: I mean, that's normally what my treatments are in general, but when people want, like, I have people coming in in a few weeks 11 I here, so, (U/II when they say, "can we have an hour and a half," 12 it's tU/I). [II]: Okay. 13 [II]: But that's pretty rare. 14 [II]: Okay. Is that 15 right? 16 [II]: Yes. 17 [U] [II]: Oh, yeah. 18 [II]: And it was typically during the evening hours? 19 [II]: Evening. Late at night. 20 [II]: What time are we talkin'? 21 [II]: It could be- I mean, `cause I work here usually `till seven, so- 22 [II]: Sure. [II]: - I may not get there `till eight or nine. Wasn't like I was 23 there `till midnight, but I would work- it would depend, and sometimes, if I was asked to (U/I] I would. 25 [III: Okay. What- and I know it's a big house, uh- uh-24 EFTA01250830 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 [II]: And I never saw- all I saw was the kitchen and the- the, I saw the kitchen and then the, I guess, for lack of better words, the, uh, off the kitchen, like a, not a maid's quarters, but I'd be asked to sit there and wait, `cause I wasn't allowed in the rest of the house. [Il]: Okay. [It: So, I'm sorry, I'm looking mostly at [UM1]: You're fine. [II]: You're okay. [II]: Um, so, I would be- I'd have to sit and wait until she was ready, when she was finished dinner or if they had guests or whatever, I would have to wait. I would- sometimes it would be a long wait, but not often, they were pretty respect- she was pretty respectful. But I would wait there and then the housekeepers would just ask me if- "do you want some water," and then they would lead me into the room. I always worked- maybe there was one time I worked on her in her- in her bedroom, not one time that I work on her in her bedroom, but I mostly worked in the library or whatever you want to call it, right off the kitchen. So I never saw the rest of the fifty -thousand square -foot house. [II]: Well, you- we- we may have never seen you again. [II]: Yeah. [II]: You may have got lost. [II]: I know. They needed a walkie-talkie. [II]: Okay, so- [II]: But the housekeepers were lovely and everybody was nice to me. [II]: Okay. So we're lookin' at the library off of the kitchen and maybe one time in the bedroom? [II]: More- probably more- more than one time, it was dependent upon how she was feeling. So that was it. So, I would be escorted EFTA01250831 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 upstairs to her bedroom, never saw him, and then- but most of the time it was downstairs right off the kitchen going into this library -study area, and then I- she got on- on a couch and I would sit on the couch and work on [II): Okay. III): Yeah. So I can't say- it was definitely more than once in her bedroom, but- III): Okay. [Ilj: It was mostly in that library. [II): And you're referring to it as her bedroom, was it only her bedroom? [II): I mean, that's all- [II): As far as you know? [III: - I know. Yeah. [II): Yeah. [II]: That's all I know. I don't know what else happens. [II): Okay. The times that you were there, it sounds like there was one time where you were kind of training a massage therapist. Uh, did anybody else ever sit in in the sessions, talk to Ghislaine or to Jeff while they were being worked on, or anything like that? (II): No. [II]: Okay. So, for the most part- [III: (U/I) [II): You guys had a fairly exclusive relationship. [II]: That's right. [II): Okay. Um, just between gettin' your hair cut or gettin' done, or something like that, typically, uh, at least for me, like, I end up engaging in quite a bit of conversation. I imagine that you engaged in quite a bit of conversation over B. What were those conversations like? EFTA01250832 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 [IV Uh, I mean, they- they would talk to me about my work, to talk about, uh, she had a place in New York. Um, there was nothing- I know what you're- I think I know what you're leading up to, I don't- I never witnessed- I can just jump in, I never witnessed any of the things that Jeffrey is being accused of. [II - 15:15): Sure. [II]: That I never saw. There was only one time that I was there when his other- they were being driven from the airport or a helicopter and I was waiting in that room off the kitchen, where then they arrived as I'm waiting for Ghislaine, to work on Ghislaine, and there were, uh, several young women, that were girls, that would be there, and I was only- I don't know if told me or- or, uh, Ghislaine told me that they were, uh, working for the Limited or Victoria's Secret or they were just younger girls of who they- that they- I never talked to them, like, they never- I was never introduced to them, like, "this is the " except for that one woman who was his massage therapist. But that's the only time I saw- saw, um, young women. Okay. And you said I never know where- what they did or where they went or anything. Okay. I just was sitting there, they arrived in the space I was in, then they walked- then they were escorted somewhere else that I'm- waiting to be called back to work on Ghislaine's [II]: Okay. You said who's [II]: The- the woman who introduced me to- [II]: Oh, [II]: - (U/I) yeah, yeah. [II]: Okay. [II]: So, I really didn't know the- there's not a lot of questions EFTA01250833 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 because of her- who she is, I mean, `cause you obviously know who she- [II]: Sure. [II]: - is in the background. I just did my work and I left. Some- [II]: Yeah. [II]: I wasn't- I'm very professional, so, I went in, worked on and she- and she might chat about- she always wanted me to tell her stories about my clients. Not, like, any breaking any confidentiality - [II]: Sure. [II]: - but she would just be sorta fascinated, like, "tell me a story of what you work on," or- (II): Okay. (ll): - "what kind of- what kind of work you do with couples," or- [II]: Okay. [II]: - that's s- that's about it. [II]: Okay. This time where, uh, these people arrived from this plane or helicopter - [III]: Right. [II]: Um, you said that they were driven in. Do you know who drove them? [II]: Oh, I don't know if it was driven. I just know- I remember that Ghislaine, I think, had a helicopter license, so I don't know if they came in a helicopter, but I don't think that many people can fit in a helicopter, but I'm guessing that it's- I'd say- I still have no idea what airport they came from. [II]: Okay. [II]: Yeah. [II]: Okay. Do you know- [II]: Again, I never spoke to them. I just looked up, saw these people EFTA01250834 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 and some other- what- it- it- it was a chauffeur or a driver- the housekeeper, `cause there were- again, I can't remember, it was so long ago. But whoever the housekeepers were, who had managed their world, somebody went and picked them- picked them all up. So, it wasn't like they arrived and I saw Jeffrey come in. It was the- these young women and then other- adult - [II): Okay. [II]: - who had brought them, who I think was the driver or who worked for- who was one of their staff. [III: Okay. When you say, "young," so, we've kinda gone back and forth between young women and girls. What would you estimate their age to be? And again - (II): So, this is a guesstimate. (II): - it doesn't have to be specific. Sure. (II): So, I mean, certainly, uh, I'm looking at- I'm- again, it's hard as you get older to judge, but- [III: Sure. [II]: - I'm saying probably, uh, like, eighteen or under. [II]: Eighteen and under. [II]: But I never saw- I- `cause I've been watching the news, I never saw someone who looked fourteen or fifteen. But again, I don't - back then, I didn't- but they were just young, attractive girls. [II]: Sure. How were they dressed? [II]: Like, I mean, I didn't really, like- it wasn't, like, in any suggestive way, they were just dressed, like, in a normal - [II]: Like, normal way? [II]: Like I'm dressed right now. [II]: Okay. III]: Yeah. But I really didn't- again, I didn't notice (U/I) not like I saw them for long, they literally came in the space, look EFTA01250835 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 up, see them, and then they're moved- so, they're walked on through - [II): Okay. III): - and then I'm still waiting there to be called back for Ghislaine. III): Okay. I know it was a very short time, like, they're basically just moving from left to right, essentially. [II]: Right. [II]: Did you ever see anyone, uh, mis- or hear, maybe, anyone mistreat them, or? [II]: No. [II]: `Cause I know they're kinda being guided through the house. [II]: Yeah, no, I never saw or heard any mistreatment. [III: And you said the housekeepers kinda managed- managed them? Or managed the whole house? [II]: Managed the whole- I mean, there were- I mean, it was such a large home, so I- [II): Yeah. [II): - I guess, like, they were the staff that would manage- I don't know what- all the things they managed, whether it was people - guests coming, what they needed. So, like, they would come in and say, "would you like some water," and I would get it on a silver tray with a white laced [U/I] and a glass of [U/I1 something like that. So, they're very gracious to me, but, so, I- they just managed the house, so I guess you'd call them caretakers, maybe? [II]: Okay. [II]: Right. I don't know. [III: How many? [II]: Two. [II]: Male or f- EFTA01250836 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 [II]: That I saw, but I don't know. I mean, I'm sure there were staff, like, gardeners or- [II]: Sure. Uh, just the people who were- who I met, um, were just, uh- I think actually they were a couple, but I'm not sure if that's [II]: Okay. [III: But they were- [I: So, a male and a female? [II]: Yes, but they were lovely. [II]: Okay. [II]: To me they were lovely. Yeah. [II]: Okay. [II - 20:00]: And now I'm blanking on, like, who would call me up- again, I apologize for the memory, but I think it was- Ghislaine would never call me directly, but it was- one of the housekeepers would say, "they're coming into town," or, "she's coming into town early, and who- are you- when are you available `cause she wants worked on." So, sometimes when she would be there, let's say she was there for five days, I might go for three- two or three of the nights and go give her a treatment and then go home. [II]: Okay. So you think it was the housekeepers? And you mentioned Alan, Alan who? I'm sorry. [II]: I didn't- I didn't say Alan. [II]: Oh, I thought you said Alan Betkey or something. No? [II]: No. No. [II]: Okay. [II]: Just the house- I'm just saying they would call- it wasn't Ghislaine who would ever call me directly, ever. It was someone- EFTA01250837 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 whoever managed her world, um, they would call and say, "can you come- this is when they're coming." Uh, I keep saying "they" and I don't mean it, because I really, I- I think it's, like, three times I saw Jeffrey that- [Il]: Okay. [II]: Yeah. [II]: And definitely more Ghislaine? [II]: Oh, I mean, completely. It was all Ghislaine, most of the time, yeah. (II): Okay. Um, you're obviously a professional, you've mentioned that already. Uh, how about Ghislaine's con- conduct? [II]: Her conduct was complete- completely normal. [II]: Okay. (II): I mean, really, you have to remember- and I think, and I'm just saying this, it's not off the record `cause you're recording it, but it's- I'm- I'm not the young girls that have been violated. So- (II): Sure. (II): - I was just- all- the only that said is that if- actually, they wanted, `cause Ghislaine worked in- had a home, I guess, or I don't know who's home, uh, if it was Jeffrey's home or Ghislaine's home, but, um, she w- wanted to notify if I knew anyone to refer- ref- a to in Manhattan. III]: Okay. [II]: They had- but she- they always said, "but you have to be attractive." So, that was the one thing that disturbed me. You know, that you can't really be on the property unless you're attractive. [II]: Whose rule was that? [II]: I don't know. EFTA01250838 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 It's okay. [II]: It's hot here. [II]: That's [II]: Hey, baby. How are you? [II]: [U/I] thanks. [II]: How are you sweetheart? Yeah. You are beautifully groomed. [II]: They help my- [II]: I know. [NI: - clients a lot. (UM1): Yeah. [II]: You are beautifully groomed. Yes, you are, ma'am. That's [II]: St- that's - [II]: Oh, (MI: and [II]: Okay. [II]: They are III/II particularly IU/I). [II]: That's not a bad thing. [II]: Okay, so, get back, sweetie pie. But all- go lie down. [II]: And who was the person that relayed that to you? [II]: Uh, [II]: Okay. [II]: I think it was yeah. It wasn't any staff- it wasn't that couple. [II]: Okay. How long had worked for them- [II]: I don't know. [II]: - before you? [II]: I- I would be a guest, so- [II]: Sure. [II]: I mean, I don't know if it was six months, I really- it's- I'm- I'm literally guessing. But- EFTA01250839 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (II): Okay. (II): - I have no idea. I don't speak with I mean, she's off in her world and we're not- she- like I said, we're both but she- [II]: Yeah. When is the last time you spoke to her? [II]: A 1- I mean, I saw her in the store probably three years ago or something. [II]: Okay. [II]: I really- again, I don't remember. She did send me an email saying, "look at- look what's going on with Jeffrey." So, I got that probably within the past month, but I haven't spoken to her ear-to-ear. (II): Did you guys have any sort of discussion after that email? (II): No, I have not yet. [II]: Okay. [II]: But I was- I'm going to. [II]: I imagine you will. [II]: Yeah. Have you- you haven't contacted her obviously yet or no, you can't tell me? Uh, so we went by her, uh- no, it's fine. So, we went by her house uh, but it looks like somebody is renting it now. It doesn't look like she's there and I guess, and you might be able to clear it up, I guess she lives [II]: She- she worked I don't know where she lives. [II]: Okay. [II]: I knew she had a house off, I think, (U/I) or something - [II]: Yeah. [II]: Yeah. But she worked [II]: Okay. EFTA01250840 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 [II]: Yeah. So we would refer people to each other, clients, but- [II]: Okay. [II]: Yeah. [II]: Do you know if she- [II]: But I don't even know if she- how long she- if she's doing this massage- I don't think she does that at all anymore. She's very successful- []: Good. [Ill]: - [II]: Good for her. [II]: Yeah. [II]: Do you know if she referred any people to the- to- to Ghislaine or Jeff? [II]: I don't know. [II]: Okay. Was there - [II]: `Cause really, the- the- so, I was the and then, I don't know how often went there but she just- the reason why she originally got in touch with me is because Ghislaine wanted work- worked on. [II]: Okay. [II]: And I'm a good so she then said, you know, "would you like me to refer you to them." And I said, "sure." And I didn't know anything more. [II]: Okay. Was there any sort of incentive or anything like that that you're aware of for referrals? So- [II]: No. [II]: No. [II]: You mean, like, if they were- if she was getting a commission? Or- EFTA01250841 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 [Ili: N- so, uh, let's imagine that you- that approached you and she said, "hey, you know, if you know somebody in New York, if you'll refer them, as long as they're attractive, obviously, um, and there's incentive in it for you, which is-" [II]: Oh, no. [II]: Okay. [II]: You mean, like, if she said to me, "there's the incentive for you- would be-" for me? [II]: Yeah. [II]: No. [II]: Okay. [II - 25:001: No, no. She just asked for- if there was a name. And Ghislaine would say, "if you ever come to New York, let me know. I'd love you to work on my [III: Okay. [II]: She really like- I mean, she really liked my work. She's just- who she- she was very relaxed and very, um- but she was not, um- I would never ask a client questions or- [II): Sure. [II): - anything like that, she just wanted to know about, like, "tell me- tell me a story, tell me what you work on," that's all she really did. [II]: Okay. Did you ever travel? [II]: No. To- to work on [II]: Uh, in general. Either - [II]: Oh, I travel - [II]: - either to work- []: - all my life. [II]: Well, sure. [II]: But not to work- yeah. EFTA01250842 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [II]: Either to work with her or with Jeff or with Ghislaine. [II]: Oh, no. I know he had, um, people who fl- who he flew to wherever- either one of his homes, so I knew that, like a massage therapist or a cook, or- and all I ever heard was little things, like, I don't know if I heard that from or Ghislaine, but that every time they would have a guest, that they would, um, you had to do everything specifically, like, if they were at the dinner table, you would- they had to be served a certain way from a certain- like, "come to the left," or, I can't remember who told me that but I was sorta fascinated, it had to be that exact. And I'll sh- I'll also share that, um, this is probably significant, that they, um, at- wanted me to- this is sort of when I stopped working for them, but they wanted me to sign a contract that anything I saw- so, that's good for you, right? [II]: Yeah. [II]: Um, anything I saw that I- and that was towards the end `cause I was getting burnt out because I would go late at night after working on stuff, I mean, treating- uh, people here. [II]: Sure. [II]: And then at night it got exhausting for me. [II]: Yeah. [II]: -late at night. So, but they s- wanted me to sign a contract saying, like, a celebrity contract, like, "if you know anybody - if you see anything going on here you have to keep it private." And I refused to sign it. [II]: Sure. Who- who approached you with that? [II]: That's what I'm trying to remember. It wasn't, uh, Ghislaine, it might've been the housekeeper. One of the housekeepers, I wish I could remember, who it was. [II]: Okay. EFTA01250843 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 [II): But it was something that was kind of floating around, like, it's about to happen where you need to, like, there's gonna be a contract and- what sits- remains in my mind, whether it's true or not, is if I did violate that contract, I'd be sued for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. And I was like, uh, "no way. I'm-" [II]: Yeah. [II]: "- not doing that. I'm coming innocently giving you a treatment, I'm not getting involved- I don't even know what goes on, I don't have any idea, but I'm whatever-" `cause they would say- and then I was- it was kind of inferred that there could be celebrities there. And to respect their privacy. [II]: Okay. [II]: And obviously everything that's coming up in the news now, the people who could have been there. [II]: Sure. [II]: Or, the relationships with- with Jeffrey. [II]: Sure. [III: That they knew him. I mean, it's making me sick actually. The whole thing - (II): It's, uh- [II]: - is- I don't want to cry right now, but the stuff that I'm hearing - [II]: I don't want to make you cry. [II]: Oh no, it's okay, but I just- I saw something, I think- on the other day of a woman who said he raped her and, um, it make- it was- made me feel sick that that was going on. `Cause that was never anything that I wit- like, I even sensed, being in their home. Just that they were big- all I- all I could say is, all- from my sort of innocent place is that, I knew I- I'm in the EFTA01250844 27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 house of fifty- fifty thousand square foot house, I knew Ghislaine's background, right? And all I knew is that Jeffrey was a person who, I mean, who would only take accounts that had to be, like, a billion dollars or more, and that's all and so, I just did my work- and did my work and left. So I didn't- but there wasn't things that I saw or I'd tell you in a second `cause I want this man to be prosecuted appropriately. [II]: Sure. [II]: Yeah. [II): Uh, as far as your treatments for Jeffrey went, what- what would you treat for him? So, for Ghislaine, it was [II): Well, I only did M- that's all I've been trained in. [II]: Okay. [II): I'm not a massage therapist. [II]: Okay. [II]: So, I would just work on his [III: Okay. [II]: And sometimes he- sometimes Ghislaine would come in, like, 1- I'm thinking of the time- so, she- I worked on her mostly, like 98% of the time, 99% of the time, and the times that I worked on Jeffrey, s- like, maybe one or two times it would be a full treatment, and I can look at my invoices for you, but, um, sometimes he'd want to just come in and have, like, a thirty minute treatment and then- so, she'd have half of it and- or d- no, that's when I- she would ask for extra time. So, I'd work on her for an hour, he'd come in, maybe took forty-five minutes and then he would leave. [II]: Okay. [II]: Yeah. [II): Did anything odd or inappropriate ever happen during your EFTA01250845 28 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sessions with Jeff? [II]: The only thing that happened that I did not appreciate is that he came down in his bathrobe and so- and he was not dressed underneath it and so, it- it seemed that- I mean, he didn't expose himself to me in any way or I would have left the house. [II]: Sure. [II]: And I would have said something, but it was just, uh- you could tell that he was, sort of- he was there, loving the treatment, and then the massage therapist that he wanted me to train was there but then the bathrobe would be there and you can tell that, like, even if something started to open up in the bathrobe, I never saw his body literally, but it was- he wasn't being mindful about covering himself. [II]: Okay. [II]: But again, I never saw his penis or anything. I'm being graphic, sorry. [II - 30:03]: No, no, no, you're fine. [II]: Yeah. [II]: We've- we've heard - [II]: Yeah, true, you've heard - [II]: - significantly worse, obviously. [II]: - you've heard a lot worse, right. [II]: Um- [II]: So, I never- I never- he was never, ever inappropriate with me. He was very respectful to me, was fascinated about my work, he wanted to know about my work, my training, and he was like, "can you train," you know, "can you help," and I said, "I can help in an- like, have her watch me, but it took me a long time to learn what I'm doing but I can help her." [II]: Yeah. EFTA01250846 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 (II): So, I would- that was it. But he was never inappropriate to me, always respectful. (II): Okay. Uh, this robe thing, was that every time or was it just the one time? (III: No. I don't rem- uh, I think it- I think it was just one time. But I- but I think that, you know, because I work from the [II]: Yeah. [II]: - so I don't remember, as you're asking that question, if he had jeans on so, he might- might have been in his bathrobe all the time, I don't- but I don't recall. I definitely remember one time he came down in a white bathrobe. (III: And the way that you described it, that was the same time that the massage therapist - [III: No. [II): - was there? [MP: No. No, that was another time. [II): Or that was a different time. [II]: Right. [II]: Okay. [II]: I really- and again, I'm trying, to do my best to remember - [II]: No, you're fine. [II]: - (U/I) back then. [II]: You're fine. This was, if we're looking at.' that's what, years ago? [III: Or cl- or- [III: No, ears ago. eah. [II]: Ah. EFTA01250847 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [II]: It's just hard to remember the details, I'm doing my best. [II]: Yeah. No, no, no, you're fine. [II]: And when- when if I work on Ghislaine, she would be there whether she was in, you know, shorts or whatever, she would, obviously, have her bare legs or if I worked at- often I would work on her, if it was in the library then she would, I don't know what she did after the treatment `cause I'd get up and leave `cause she'd often fall asleep, but if she was upstairs and she wanted me to work on her up in her bedroom, I would just tiptoe out, wash my hands in the bathroom, and esc- take myself out, no one escorted me out. [II]: Okay. [II]: Right. [II]: Were there any sorts of, uh, parties or large gatherings that you remember - [II]: Not that I ever saw. [II]: - during your time there? [II]: I never was there with any kind of- anything that I would've heard or saw, other than those young girls, um, coming in that time. (III: Do you remember when that was? [II]: I don't. I mean, I can't s- all those years, I can't remember what year it was if that's what you're asking. [II]: Sure. Do you know how long you had been there by that time? [II]: No. [II]: Okay. [II]: I wish I could tell you that. [II]: Summer or winter? [II]: Uh, if I had to guess, I don't remember them being - [II]: Nah d- EFTA01250848 31 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [II]: - heavily -clothed. [II]: -don't guess. [II]: Yeah. [II]: But- okay. [II]: I really don't remember when it was. [II]: Okay. [II]: `Cause you have to remember, it was pretty much of a fleeting moment. [II]: Sure. [II]: It's literally like you coming in, me sitting here waiting to be called back, they come to the door and I see them for a moment and say hi, and then they walk out the other door. [III: How- [II]: And that's how fast it was. [II]: How many would you estimate? [II]: That time when I saw them, I'd say four? [II]: Four? [II]: Yeah. And I'm pretty naive a- so, I don't- so, it's not like I thought, "I wonder what they're doing here," except that all I knew is that I thought he worked for the Limited or was invested in the Limited, but maybe it was Victoria's Se- Secret, but that I thought they all seemed like they were in awe and kind of the un- young models that wanted- that here they are in awe of this billionaire - [U]: Sure. [II]: - who's flying them in. And then- so, that's what makes- breaks my heart is that you're- they're so impressionable, right? [II]: Yeah. [II]: And seeing this, uh, tycoon or whatever, wealthy person and being EFTA01250849 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 flown wherever and so, their- the innocence of them just breaks my heart, that that's - [II]: Yeah. [III: And so, maybe they were saying, like, get- like that woman on the TV who said he would get- she would get paid three hundred dollars and prom- be promised to become a model. [II]: Yeah. [II]: So, I bet they were, at that age, and they don't say- they get- they get in awe of it. [II]: Yeah. [II]: The wealth. [II]: Yeah. [III: Yeah. [III: Did you ever see the plane or the helicopter? Okay. And you- [II]: I never saw a landing strip. I just saw a massive home. [II]: Okay. And you said you think- you think Ghislaine had her own, uh, pilot's license? [III: Helicopter license- I think so. [II]: Helicopter license. See, look, now I'm out of paper. (U/I] [II]: And it always seemed that she was the, um, like she managed his world in the sense of their home, so she would go to Zorro Ranch but I don't- but he- but then she would manage the staff, and that's what I would hear, like, that they would train- that she had a s- again, I don't remember if it was from Ghislaine, it could've been, but that they- she'd be there to be- do trainings, and to also be at Zorro ranch but she would be there to, like, train if there were new staff and whoever- whoever they were entertaining, let's say it was a celebrity or, uh, I don't know, I'm just naming names, like, Trump or Clinton or- [II): Sure. EFTA01250850 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 [Il]: And I didn't see or know any of them, that I'm just hearing now, that's where she'd come in and she'd say n- she had to train the staff to make sure that they- these guests were being served appropriately and not, you know, that it was very private and personal. I mean- [II- 35:03]: Sure. [II]: - if you have a celebrity come in, you don't want someone gossiping and- [II]: Right. [II]: So, they had to do it just that way, so, that's what I- and all I know is that he- that they had the New York home, the, um, Zorro Ranch, and I think an island that he own- uh, he either owned an island or he had a big home in the Caribbean. And I don't- and I don't know if- I think there might- is there one in New York? I- [II]: I don't know. [II]: I don't know. [II]: Who knows? [II]: Exactly, yeah. [II]: Um, did you see Ghislaine training these people- []: No. [II]: - or do you just know about it? [II]: I just know about it. [II]: Okay. [II]: I- I- literally, I literally just went in, was- waited to be called back until we'd [U/I) each other at the library or bedroom, worked on and left. [II]: Okay. [Il]: And then if Jeffrey wanted the treatment a few times, that's when it- it was always f- down in the d- in the, uh, den. [II): Okay. EFTA01250851 34 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [II]: Library. [II]: Okay. How did you get paid? [II]: I invoiced them. [II]: Okay. [II]: Right. [II]: And then- [II]: And then Zorro Ranch would pay me. [II]: By check? [II]: Yes. Or cash. [II]: Do you still have copies of those checks? [II]: It should be in my Quicken - [II]: Okay. [II]: - oh, the checks? No, I mean, I'd have to go- [II): Okay. [III: -through my- yeah. [II]: Okay. [II]: But I can find out the invoices or, does that matter? Like- []: Nell, would the invoices- would the invoices or would your Quicken have things like the check numbers or the account numbers or anything like that? (II): No. [II]: Okay. (III: It would just say, you know, session, in parentheses Ghislaine, 1 and a- 1.5 hours." And then- (II): Okay. But the- it sounds like the- the account was the Zorro ranch account? [II]: Yes. [II]: Okay. [II]: It wasn't- there wasn't any personal name on it. [II]: Okay. Did you ever see or interact with any of the other guests? EFTA01250852 35 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 No. I never saw another guest except those girls, again, I- Okay. I want to talk for a little bit about this massage therapist. What can you tell me about her? [II]: About [II]: No, no, no, no. The- the girl that he had you train. [II]: Oh, I mean, I literally don't remember what she looked like. It was just a young girl who came in, she pulled up a chair and I'm working on his and- and so, I was just talking to her about - about, uh, how to do but she was young and I think she traveled with them. [II]: Okay. [II]: But I don't know how many different massage therapists they had in different- wherever their different homes were, but I got the impression that she flew with them, that they brought her with- her with him. [II]: What gave you that impression? [II]: Just from hearing, like, the two- that- "she comes with me." [II]: Okay. Okay. You said, "young girl," how- how old would you estimate she was? II]: I wanna say, again, like, `cause I'm much older, `cause I wanna say maybe eighteen. If they were older than that, maybe. But she was not, like, fifteen years old, I (U/I) girl was, but I- she was not, like, a young, young girl. [II]: Okay. [II]: But she was y- I mean, what am I saying, she was young. [II]: Okay. [II]: Right. [II]: Any idea how long she had been working for them? [II]: No. So I- I just have to say, I know nothing about the rest of their staff except those two c- that couple that ran them- the EFTA01250853 36 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ranch. (II): Okay. (II): Yeah. I don't know anything about, uh, those girls that came in, what they were doing there, why they were there, how long they worked- how long they were around, I have no idea. (II): Okay. As far as the ranch itself went, how would you get in, were there any sorts of gates, was there security? [II]: I got there (U/I1 there was a gate. [II]: Okay, can you describe that? [II]: So, I would come down whatever, heading towards Stanley, turn into the dr- entrance and then there was a gate code, I can't rem- don't ask me the gate code. [II]: No, I won't. [II]: And then I would push something and then they would- the gate would be open- open- it would automatically open and I would drive, like, quite a distance - (II]: Sure. [II]: - in, to get to the main house. [III]: Okay. And what would happen when you would get there? [II]: And I actually, now I'm thinking of it, back in the beginning I worked, it's just coming to me now, is that originally, I think while that house- home was being built, the big one- [II]: Okay. [II]: - that they had another home that was almost like a, uh, uh, like, a log cabin or, like, uh, an RV, you know what I'm- like a, what do you call it, a- not an RV, uh, help me, like a mobile home. [III: Okay. Mobile home? [II]: Like a double mot- but it was a b- you know, obviously they- it was made to be very nice, so, that was while the house was being EFTA01250854 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 built and then I worked over at the main house when they- when that was finished. [II]: Okay, so you actually started off in the mobile home? [II]: I think so. Yeah, that was my memory of it, yeah. [II]: Okay. [II]: But it wasn't a mobile home that was- it was, like, a nice- they- whatever they did. [II]: Right. [II]: I think it was a mobile home- that's my impression because- but it looked like a log cabin design on the outside. [It: Okay. [Il]: And then so, anyway, going back to the main house, what made me think of- what- just remember that is because that was over this way as I'm driving and then I would go around to the main house eventually and then just- when I'd have to park in the back, not- never in the front. So, in fact, I would be parked in the back but what- I would enter through the kitchen. Not the kitchen, excuse me, the quarters that are next to the kitchen if that makes sense. Like a mud- [II - 40:15]: Okay- [II]: - like a mudroom. Like a- [II]: - so, there's a- so, it had its own- so, it had its own entryway? [II]: Yeah, like, about, like- From the outside? [II]: (U/I) yeah. [II]: Okay. Okay. When you would park back there, were there other cars that were back there as well? [II]: Uh, maybe one, or t- I mean, I didn't really note that. (U/I] [II]: Never, like, a bunch of `em or- [II]: -Yeah, no (U/I) EFTA01250855 38 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21