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OLIVER GYARFAS, SR., gt Q1;
V.
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Q; Q1;A B
B1aintiffs' Ejrst Request For Production
and Inspection of Documents
Responsive Documents from
San Antonio file 89B-SA-38851
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excised copy
QELEIION COQES
Information which is properly classified pursuant to
Executive Order, the disclosure of which could reasonably
be expected to cause damage to the national security or the
conduct of the Government's international relations.
Information, the disclosure of which would tend to reveal the
identity of an informant.
Information obtained from a foreign government or
international organization where there is an agreement or
understanding that the information received will be treated
confidentially.
Information protected under the Grand Jury Secrecy provision-
Rule 6 e! of the federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.
Information, the disclosure of which would tend to identify a
source of information, where confidentiality is expressed or
implied.
Administrative file numbers.
The Law Enforcement Privilege - The disclosure of this
information could cause harm to, impede, impair, or hinder an
investigation and/or an investigative interest of the FBI.
Information, the disclosure of which would tend to compromise
the effectiveness of an investigative method or technique.
Information, the disclosure of which would divulge opinions,
recommendations, and advice generated in the decision-making
process of the government.
Information, the disclosure of which is prohibited by federalstatute with citation to the appropriate statute!.
Information protected under the attorney-client privilege.
Information or material protected under the attorney work
product privilege.
Information which is not relevant to the matters at issue in
the litigation.
Information originating with another government agency whichmust be referred to that agency for review. The use of thiscode does not waive any applicable codes which may be applied
by the originating agency.
Other, as specified.
Information, the disclosure of which would be an unwarrantedinvasion of the personal privacy of an individual not partyto the litigation.
0
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE f10X
03/17/93
6231 A.M. - 9:21 P.M.
2
Tape 10x!
STEVE: -- bring whoever to the phone that
you'd like to work with or, or try to encourage them to
come to the phone if it's the mothers of the children,
whatever. I'll try to do that first. But I think you
could detect as quick or quicker than I could how --
JOHN DOLAN: Is Scott around tonight?
STEVE: He's --
JOHN DOLAN: Somewhere.
STEVE: - quite a ways from me where I'm at
right now. But he, he probably would be around
tonight.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Maybe you could have him
call. Because I know he had a long conversation the
other night with some of the fellows on the night
shift. And I, I think it went pretty well.
STEVE: I must admit that John Cox hasn't
done very badly at all with these people. So if he's
going to be on, that would be fine.
JOHN DOLAN: That would be fine.
STEVE: when you people change the, you know,
as negotiators so much and some of these people start
getting used to certain voices and the style and so
forth, it makes it more difficult when a new
personality, another personality comes on.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
3
STEVE: And maybe doesn't show the same
feeling, they don't get the same vibes of -
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: - well intent maybe. So I mean I'm
just telling you how - I mean you should already
realize it after I've spoken with at least, it's been
ll so far. _
JOHN DOLAN: Well, as, as you know that's not
our, our doing.
STEVE: Well, no, I know. And I know that
the press has shown that you people need a rest so you
can be refreshed and you can handle these things. I
wished I could say the same thing. Because you know
I've been on the phone daily, nightly with just about
every -- well, with everybody.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, how about this. How about
if John Cox gets a hold of Scott Sonobe tonight. How
about if we do that?
STEVE: Okay. Maybe along about 8, 9 o'clock
or so?
JOHN DOLAN: I'll have John call, call in for
Scott around, around that time.
STEVE: Okay, sure.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, that's good.
STEVE: I'll, I'll drop a note off or go let
him know that he will do that then.
O O
4
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, then +-
STEVB: And, and John, leave him with the
message or the commanders if you have anything of
substance for us to look at through the night and think
about in relation to Dr. Arnold or those ggsggegg or
whatever or a tape, I mean that's not to say I still
wouldn't go out there and talk face-to-face with Byron
or yourself or whoever.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Okay.
STEVE: I mean that - it doesn't see,
those things are not big issues to me about what he has
or doesn't have.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay .
STEVE: If he wants to have a face-to-face
communication, I haven't ruled it out. It's just at
this point of time today, I want something more to chew
on, to be able to think about. Give me something to
work with even with these people. I mean I'd be coming
out there with saying basically nothing.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. The same, the same thing
though. I, I need something to chew on in the sense of
going to these people here. So it's a two-way street
though.
I STEVE: Well, then you're -- see what's
happened, you're forgetting all the tools that you gave
me last Friday that I was using have been taken from
me, and you've given me none back, and you're wanting
me to have -- it's you're putting the --
JOHN DOLAN: I know, I know. I don't want i
to be ~-
STEVE: - you're putting the cart before th
horse.
JOHN DOLAN: I don't want it to be a one-way
street.
STEVE: And -- no, this is what the
commanders are doing. Because they've taken away any
tools I had to work with with these people to get them
thinking, talking about leaving. And then all of a
sudden all those tools were taken from me. And then
it's, it's like they want to hand me back a piece of
straw to dig a hole with or something. It's just not
going to happen.
JOHN DOLAN: We'll get - we'll talk
tomorrow. And then the fellows will talk - John Cox
will talk to Scott tonight and whoever else wants to
talk to John Cox.
STEVE: Try to pass on though I mean it's --
JQHN DOLAN: will do. I'll do that.
STEVE: -- we're still interested in those
gwswgeg, 11mg, Eeogle magazines. And I'm still
interested in hearing about or if anything is written
or taped about what that warrant was or in more detail5
t
e
that would --
JOHN DOLAN: We've got that.
STEVE: - it's a big deal. These people
all curious about that. why did they come to kill
well, show me what kind of a warrant they had?
JOHN DOLAN: We've got it.
STEVE: That's where it all started from
it's still not even -- why should these people --
JOHN DOLAN: We've got it.
STEVE: -- come out when no warrant's eve
been shown?
JOHN DOLAN: We've got it. We've got it.
Byron --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: -- had it. We'll get it out
you.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: We'll work on that tomorrow
talk to everybody. Thanks --
STEVE: Tomorrow. why, why not maybe
dropping it off by the tree or something tonight?
JOHN DOLAN: Well, let me talk to you --
to John cox then. see how it goes.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
_STEVE: You're probably hungry there John6
are
us?
and
n
to
and
talk
JOHN DOLAN: No, no. Laughing.!
STEVE: Okay. I'll let you get some rest or
take a break from all this. I know you put in a long
day already so --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, Steve. I'll, I'll --
STEVE: Hey, honestly it's been a pleasure
talking to you and --
JOHN DOLAN: It, it has been a pleasure.
STEVE: -- one, one way or the other one day
I mean I, I truly would like to meet you. I really
would.
JOHN DOLAN: We will do that. And we'll,
we'll also get this resolved too.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, Steve.
STEVE: Sounds good. Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Have a good evening.
STEVE: Okay, you too. Bye.
JOHN DOLAN: Goodnight.
Q i Q
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN COX: Steve?
STEVE: Yes. John.
JOHN COX: John.
STEVE: Hey, how's it going, John?
JOHN COX: Great. Great.
O O
8
STEVE: Good. Scott is nearby here. He --
JOHN COX: Okay. Sorry we're late. Somebody
said wanted to call around 9 o'clock.
STEVE: Right. That's all right. I, I told
him you'd be calling. I says if you're a little late
it happens so --
JOHN COX: How have you been? Haven't talked
to you in a couple days.
STEVE: No. What have you been doing with
yourself though?
JOHN COX: I've been around. I've been
around.
STEVE: Have you gotten to take any breaks?
You got home or back again?
JOHN COX: No, no. Not that far.
STEVE: Not that far, huh.
JOHN COX: No, just -- we've had some other
folks talking. Mike's been talking to you --
s'r1s:vn= Right.
JOHN COX: - in the evening, and we're all
still around here. Most of us anyhow.
STEVE: Nell, that's good to hear. Well, I
mean, well, not one way but for yourselves. But John,
Scott's right here.
JOHN COX: Okay. Thank you.
Tape cuts out.!
Tape 10x!
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO'& FIREARMS
TAPE fllX
3/17/93
9:26 a.m. - 10:13 p.m.
Tape 11X!
JOHN COX: Thanks. Appreciate it.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Hello?
JOHN COX: David?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yes. How are you doing?
JOHN COX: John Cox. I spoke to you befor
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yes. I recall.
JOHN COX: You're the one without an X --
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
JOHN COX: -- from, from Maine?
DAVID THIBODEAD: That's me.
JOHN COX: Okay. I wanted to let you know
that your mom has contacted an attorney in Tulsa,
Oklahoma, Gary Richardson --
DAVID THIBODEAU: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: -- to represent you.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Excellent.
JOHN COX: Okay? And what I mentioned to
Steve is there are several people who are being
represented and we just want to make sure that they
understand that.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay.
JOHN COX: And --
DAVID THIBODEAU: I also got that tape and
heard it too.
JOHN COX: Good.E
3
1 DAVID THIBODEAU: So, it was --
2 JOHN COX: Good.
3 DAVID THIBODEAU: -- it was excellent.
4 JOHN COX: Okay.
5 DAVID THIBODEAU: I'd like to
6 that.
7 JOHN COX: Well, you're quite
8. basically says that your mom asked Gary
9 ,to represent her son and his family and
10 on any legal difficulties, and asked to
11 client, being you, and the
12. that whenever anyone wants to come out,
13 that they'll be offered by
14 DAVID THIBODEAU:
15
16 DAVID THIBODEAU:
17 know, I
18 JOHN COX: Sure.
19 DAVID THIBODEAU:
20 JOHN COX: Sure.
21 DAVID THIBODEAU:
22 JOHN COX: Well,
23 system. And, and we've --
24 DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
25thank you for
welcome. It
Richardson to,
-- advise him
meet with his
attorneys have been told
the first thing
the U. S. Magistrate is --
Is representation.
JOHN COX: Is legal representation. You bet.
That's excellent. You
-- that was a concern, of course, and --
-- still would be and --
Probably the top concern.
I mean, that's the Federal
JOHN COX: -- we've, we've told Steve and
David and others all along that that's the way the
4
Federal system works and I just want to give you a
little assurance that at, that at least you have a
designated attorney, and the guy is named Gary
Richardson out of Tulsa.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Excellent.
JOHN COX: And if there's any other questions
or anything that you would want passed on, you know, we
would be happy to do it or anything that --
DAVID THIBODEAU: SO --
JOHN COX: Anything that you would like me to
answer for you?
DAVID THIBODEAU: You're aware that my mom's
been right there in town, of course --
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Have you spoken with her or
-- has she -- through messages?
JOHN COX: No. I think somebody has talked
to her.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well, if I were to -- let's
see, I was wondering, is there any way I could talk
with her?
JOHN COX: Well, you know what I'd, I'd have
to tell you there.
DAVID THIBODEAU: You have to come out first.
JOHN COX: You bet. You bet. Now, if you
wanted to, to make some kind of a message in there for
us to give to her, I think we could do that, certainly
DAVID THIBODEAU: Excellent. A tape, for
example.
JOHN COX: Sure. Sure.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay. Boy, that would be
great. Because, you know, there's just a few people
while I'm here I'd like her to get in touch with if --
JOHN COX: Oh, yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- if she hasn't already.
So, there may be some people in town especially.
JOHN COX: Hey, if you want her to get in
touch with other people's families or things like that
just put it on tape and we'll give her the tape.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Oh, that would be great.
JOHN COX: You know, I mean, we're not the
Grim Reaper. we're here to --
DAVID THIBODEAU: I realize that.
JOHN COX: -- communicate, and that's what
the bottom line is.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I realize that, you know.
JOHN COX: Sure.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Like I said to you before,
there were a lot -- you know, the water under the
bridge that --
JOHN COX: Hey, some --
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- that was --
6
JOHN COX: ~~ some things can't be changed,
huh?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah. It was definitely,
you know -- shouldn't have, shouldn't have occurred the
way it did. I realize you're working with us and, you
know, I appreciate that and --
JOHN cox: Okay .
DAVID THIBODEAU: I, I will definitely tell
you I have a higher respect for the FBI than I do for
the ATF.
JOHN COX: Well --
DAVID THIBODEAU: But that's neither here nor
there, I'm sure, as far as you're concerned. But
it's --
JOHN COX: We're just trying to do a job and
and trying to do it right and in a peaceful manner and,
and to, you know, resolve it that way.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I can appreciate that.
JOHN COX: All right. And I think
everybody's got the same thing in mind. It's just a
matter of time. And nobody can quite come up with that
calculation yet. l
DAVID THIBODEAU: I understand.
JOHN COX: But like, like I've told Steve and
I've told other people, that we're going to be on the
end of the phone 24 hours a day. And if there's any
7
time anybody wants to pick up either the line that
you're on now or the line up where I spoke to you
before, which, which would be up around David's area up
there, all they have to do is pick it up, call,
identify themselves, and we'll talk. We'll
communicate. You know, we are here 24 hours a day.
Not necessarily the same person --
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
JOHN COX: - but we're here, you know, and
we're here to communicate, to answer any questions, to
tell people what the judicial system is all about and
how it's going to work out. And I don't know what else
I could tell you.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I try to do a lot of
listening, so I here Steve, you know --
JOHN COX: Good.
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- talking, communicating.
JOHN COX: Hey, I think he's trying hard.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Oh, he definitely is, yeah.
JOHN COX: You know, he's --
navxo THIBODEAU: -~ that kind of a guy.
JOHN COX: And, and we've all been supportive
of him, and I, and I don't mean supportive in a, in a
con man type of deal. I think he's sincere and he,
he's serious about trying to work this thing out in
there. Obviously, David can't go bouncing around in
8
there like he'd like to. And, and Steve's going to
have to be the guy that -- to do the moving and
shaking, and he's going to have to be the one to talk
to people. And I think he is, you know, and --
DAVID THIBODEAU:. Definitely is.
JOHN COX: Because I talked to - gee, I
don't know who it was, Kathy before she came out or
someone the other night, and they said that he -- oh,
it was Scott Senobi, I guess. And he said hey, Steve's
made a couple of trips around talking to people. So --
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
JOHN COX: You know? It's like being part of
the problem or part of the solution, and I think he's
really part -~ trying to be part of the solution. And,
and I think anybody that talks to us is trying to be
part of the solution, you know, because they care.
DAVID THIBODBAU: Definitely. We all want
it --
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: - resolved peacefully.
There, there's no question there. No --
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- question.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: But, you know, as I said,
there is just -- you know, but Steve still wants to
learn some things and David wants to learn some --
JOHN COX: Well --
mvxo mxsoomu: -- things and there's been
some lines crossed here and there. You know, we're
working it --
JOHN COX: If --
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- all out.
JOHN COX: ~- if you could -- I don't know,
if you can catch Steve before he falls asleep tonight
or if you can catch him in the morning and, and
something I didn't discuss with him tonight and --
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay.
JOHN COX: -- basically --
DAVID THIBODEAU: I'll, I'll go right up as
soon as I get off the line.
JOHN COX: You know, I think some of our
people, maybe not the ones that you are talking to and
Steve's talking to, but some of our people a little
higher up are, are trying to find out exactly what it
going to take --
DAVID THIBODEAU: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: -- i.e., tell us what you need
from us to reassure you that this can be resolved
besides the Word, because --
DAVID THIBODEAU: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: -- the Word is the Word and David
10
has said -- David has told me that he has to hear the
Word for himself, but it doesn't mean that everybody
else has to hear this Word. And then when we, we were
talking about the, the meteor going through the sky the
other night and --
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah, I was --
JOHN COX: -- Steven sure thought that was
the Word.
DAVID THIBODEAU: If you honestly want to
know what, you know, a lot of us want, you know --
JOHN COX: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- we listen to the news
conferences, unlike what --
JOHN COX: Sure.
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- you'al1 are saying on
the news conferences --
JOHN COX: Sure.
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- we do get to hear the
radio and we do get our - you know, we get what we --
everybody gets to hear and experience what you people
send to us --
JOHN COX: Yes.
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- and, of course, we're
always free to listen to the radio --
JOHN COX: Yes. ~
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- and David has always
ll
encouraged us to make our own decisions --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: - from a knowledge, not
from, you know, what - or not from, you know,
believing or, or feeling.
JOHN COX: Sure.
DAVID THIBODEAU: It's Christ or be it or,
or the Government or whatever =-
JOHN COX: Sure.
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- you know. But always:
come to your own conclusions. It's always been the
first line with David. That's why I was so impressed.
He was always honest with me --
JOHN COX: I know --
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- on the table with every
- and with everyone have ever met him.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: And, you know, has, has,
has experienced - that have met him, in his
experience. And, you know, the one thing is, you know,
we hear all these -- this stuff from you. Steve tells
us everything you guys say, of course.
JOHN COX: Yeah. 1
DAVID THIBODEAU: And, then, you know, you
sit there at 10:30 and you listen to that newscast, and
you're just going: what is this ATP guy saying? You
12
know, the FBI guy, I can see he's pretty good most of
the time. okay. But there's still, there's still a
lot of things and --
JOHN COX: Well --
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- especially the ATF --
JOHN COX: S0, what d0 -"
DAVID THIBODEAU: - guy.
JOHN COX: -- what do you think that you're
really looking for -- and, and I'm trying to make it --
trying to make our job easier and your job easier.
what do you think the people are really looking for?
Or what is confusing them?
DAVID THIBODEAU: We're an honest
JOHN COX: From, from --
DAVID THIBODEAU: we're an honestpeople.
JOHN COX: From our standpoint out here --
DAVID THIBODEAU: Honesty. That's, that's,
that's what we're looking for, is honesty.
JOHN COX: What -- then what can we do? You
know, and I'm not trying to trick you. I'm
to trap you. I'm not trying to throw you a
really asking.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I understand.
JOHN COX: What can we do to show
positive? You know, because I know someone
us Ngwsweegs and send us Iime. Well, what,not trying
curve. I'm
something
says: send
what's that
13
going to prove? That's a week old now. We're talking
about the issues today. what do you need? Do you need
some assurances of legal representation? Do you need
-- I think copies of, of paperwork from the United
states Attorney's Office and other things were, were
brought up forward today. And --
DAVID THIBODEAU: I'll tell you one thing
that's been a big issue --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- and, of course, that's
the seal of the warrant.
JOHN COX: Okay.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Constitutionally, you know,
we -- boy, you know, there's so many Constitutional
lines being crossed here.
JOHN COX: Why?
DAVID THIBODEAU: And that, that's a big one.
we want to know what's in there.
JOHN COX: Was --
DAVID THIBODEAU: We, we don't want it
changed, because it -- you know, I've heard some
things. We don't want to see --
JOHN COX: well, the Judge sealed --
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- after they get in
here --
JOHN COX: -- seals the affidavit. That's --
14
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay. What's that ~-
JOHN COX: that's what that's --
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- all about?
JOHN COX: - all about.
DAVID THIBODEAU: An affidavit is to be
served to a person before --
JOHN COX: No.
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- legal action is taken
against him. -
JOHN COX: No. Uh-uh. I can tell you the
way the system works, and I've been in it for over 30
years, is that --
DAVID THIBODEAU: Oh, John?
JOHN COX:' - and if I go ahead.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Excuse me. Can I put
someone on real quick? And I'll be right back to you.
This is important.
JOHN COX: You bet. You bet.
RACHEL: Sorry you got cut short there.
JOHN COX: Laughter.!
RACHEL: He had to go right away and --
JOHN COX: Ladies first?
RACHEL: His - no. His mother's on the
radio.
JOHN COX: Oh. GO--
RACHEL: So --
15
JOHN COX: That's great.
RACHEL: He was --
JOHN COX: Great.
RACHEL: -- called.
JOHN COX: What's up?
RACHEL: Well, this is Rachel.
JOHN COX: Rachel?
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Yeah. Let me tell you what I've
got here.
RACHEL: Well, how did you get chosen for
this job?
JOHN COX: Do what?
RACHEL: To, to speak to us tonight?
JOHN COX: Well, I've been here every night.
I just don't talk every night.
RACHEL: Oh. Can I --
JOHN COX: we're flexible.
RACHEL: I, I -- well, let me tell you this
much. I'm glad that it's you.
JOHN COX: Oh. Well, good.
RACHEL: Because, not anything personal, but
some of the others aren't too friendly.
JOHN COX: Well, hey, whether they come
across that way or they don't come across that way, we,
we all mean the same thing.
know.
am. Le
Jeff Xe
Worth.
been as
represe
legal d
after c
David p
saying,
he's be
know Je
pretty
worth,16
RACHEL: Ah, well.
JOHN COX: It's just maybe the tone of --
. RACHEL: I don't know about that.
JOHN COX: somebody's voice or --
RACHEL: Well, that plays a big part, you
JOHN COX: Yeah. I'm sure it does. I really
t me tell you what I've got. It's a letter from
rney Phonetic!, and he's an attorney in Fort
And it was basically sent to the FBI and he's
ked by Mrs. Mary Jones, your mother, to
nt her daughter and to advise her regarding her
ifficulties and asked to meet with the client
onferring with Dick DeGuerin, who represents
er David's mother. And he sent a letter in
you know, he'd like to talk to you and, and
en advised that he'd be free to talk to you.
RACHEL: Is this Jeff Xerney?
JOHN COX: Yes. Now, I don't know if you
ff Kerney from the man --
RACHEL: No.
JOHN COX: -- in the moon, but --
RACHEL: I don't.
JOHN COX: -- he is -- I guess he's a, a
well-regarded attorney in, in a law firm in Fort
Texas, who your mom contacted to represent you.
17
So, when, when you come out, Mr. Kerney will certainly
be representing
and the Federal
the way it will
allow attorneysyou and giving you legal advice and,
Judge here is -- has ruled that that's
be, that, you know, we are not going to
to go inside the compound because we
have a, an obligation to ensure the safety and well-
being of everybody in the area. And we can get all the
promises in the
assurances onceworld, but we can't offer the
somebody leaves our care, custody, and
control, you know. So --
RACHEL: How did she get this attorney?
JOHN COX: I'm sorry?
RACHEL: How did she get this attorney?
JOHN COX: Well --
RACHEL: I mean --
JOHN COX: -- from
RACHEL: -- she --
but she's
money.I mean, she --
the looks of this --
I, I've forgotten her age,
around retirement and she doesn't have any
JOHN COX: I'm around retirement too, but
that --
RACHEL2 And --
JOHN COX: -- doesn't mean I'm an old-timer.
RACHEL: No. But, you know, I lived with my
mother.
JOHN COX: Sure. What --
l8
RACHEL: And --
JOHN COX: -- what it looks like --
RACHEL: -- I know she doesn't have any
money, so how did she get this attorney?
JOHN COX: Well, what it looks like in the
letter is there must -- he must have been referred by
DeGuerin. ,
RACHEL: De-what?
JOHN COX: Dick Decuerin, the attorney that
represents David --
RACHEL: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: -- through David's mother.
Because it says: "After conferring with Mr. Dick
DeGuerin I have been advised that I should submit a
letter..." bla-bla, bla-bla. So, whether DeGuerin
referred your mother to Jeff Kerney or how that
actually happened, I couldn't tell you, but it may have
happened that way. Because there are copies of the
letter to DeGuerin and to Jack Zimmerman and Gary
Richardson, other attorneys who are representing
clients here. And what I'm doing is trying to contact
-- we've already contacted some people in the past and
told them that they have legal representation, and I
just asked Steve if I could talk to some people that
we've had some letters come in on and, and you were one
of them. And I didn't want someone coming back to us
,7-~_
19
later on saying hey, you never told my client in there
that, that I represented them. And, and it's the right
thing to do. And if you have a message or if you have
a comment or you had a question or something like that,
try to pass it on. And, and as I told David Thibodeau
earlier, that if people in there want to make a tape or
something, that we'll certainly pass them on to others
or, if you want a message to go to someone besides your
mom, you know, someone else, we'll pass them on.
RACHEL: So, no one there talked to her then?
It -- the letter was just sent to you --
JOHN COX: Yes.
RACHEL: - and that's basically all you
know.
JOHN COX: The letter was sent to us.
RACHEL: I was just curious as to why she did
that for me and how come she didn't do it for her
husband?
JOHN COX: What can I tell you.
RACHEL: Does, does she know about him?
JOHN COX: I think so. I think so. Because
I think it was reported that he's deceased.
RACHEL: It has not been on the radio.
JOHN COX: You haven't heard it?
RACHEL: No.
JOHN COX: Well, maybe it hasn't then.
O C
20
RACHEL: And I was wondering why they're not
saying it, why they're not telling anyone, anyone about
it.
JOHN COX: The - I, I thought it had been at
the press conference.
RACHEL TO UNIDENTIFIED INDIVIDUALS: Anybody
hear about Perry being killed?
RACHEL: No. Everybody listens every day and
it's -- to me, the way I see it is, it's being covered
up because my dad knows a lot of people.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
RACHEL: He was a wellliked man. And he
never did anybody any harm.
JOHN COX: Okay. Somebody --
RACHEL: And --
JOHN COX: - just passed me a note that it
was in the newspaper as: reportedly deceased.
RACHEL: Reported deceased?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
RACHEL: Is there a way of, of receiving
that, that cutout that you just got?
JOHN COX: I can try. And I can ask some
questions as to whether or not it's been brought up at
the news conferences, things like that.
RACHEL: Because I know my mother doesn't
read the newspapers, for one.
21
JOHN COX: She doesn't?
RACHEL: No.
JOHN COX: Oh, I mean, for real, she doesn't,
huh?
RACHEL: No. She might listen to the news.
JOHN COX: So, she doesn't --
RACHEL: But, no, this is --
JOHN COX: -- subscribe to a daily paper or
anything, huh?
RACHEL: >NO, she doesn't, doesn't read the
newspaper. She's into other things.
JOHN COX: Okay.
RACHEL: SO --
JOHN COX: I can check on it and, and, and we
will.
RACHEL: Remember the last time I talked to
you you said that someone had called in for him and you
didn't know that he was dead?
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
RACHEL: And you said you would find out, and
you never told me.
JOHN COX: I don't know that I was ever told.
All I had was a message that someone had called in, and
I asked for someone to try and find out who it was, and
I don't know that I ever got the answer, because if I
had the answer I'd tell you. I certainly don't have
O O
- 22
any reason to, to not tell you. And I'll try and find
out again who may have called, because I know you said
you had, what, eleven brothers or sisters or something?
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: It may have been one of those.
RACHEL: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: Hey, if there's somebody else in
there besides your dad that's deceased, maybe we can
make it a little easier on someone else if you wanted.
Let us know. Or any injuries that you'd want to pass
on to other people.
RACHEL: Well, I think you already have the
information.
JOHN COX: On what?
RACHEL: Both of those questions -- or
statements.
JOHN COX: To be very honest with you, the --
and, and -- the only information I have is we were
given a report of an infant child of David's that was
deceased, and we were led to believe that that was a
daughter and, and I just - David has never told me.
I've talked to David and, and maybe it strikes a nerve
with him and I haven't --
RACHEL: NO.
JOHN COX: I don't --
RACHEL: It's a touchy subject.
23
JOHN COX: Well, the -- see, I haven't
brought it up again with him.
RACHEL: Well.
JOHN COX: I feel that if he wants to discuss
it with me he will, and I'm not trying to, to dig into
a, a sensitive area or to wound or something like that.
If you want to tell me something, fine. I'll accept
it, you know, as, as valid and, and truthful, but --
RACHEL: Well, it just seems kind of funny to
me that they would say, you know, in the press
briefings and on the radio that Peter Gent is dead and
has been buried, and yet they don't even bring it up
about Perry Jones, my dad. It just seems awfully --
JOHN COX: Well, I can --
RACHEL: - funny to me.
JOHN COX: -- probably tell you that in
tomorrow's news conference they'll bring it up, because
what happens is we have to notify somebody and --
before we can release it to the press. And I guess we
can notify your mom through her lawyer, you know, that
way. If we don't have a direct way to communicate with
your mother, we could certainly do it through the
lawyer.
RACHEL: I mean, that's, that's going to be a
big thing, because they --
JOHN COX: It's going to be a shock to her if
24
she hasn't been notified already, isn't it?
RACHEL: Yeah, and to the rest of the family,
because --
JOHN COX: Yeah.
RACHEL: if it had ended right there at
that door, you still would have had a dead man because
he was standing there and they just shot him, and he
was doing nothing. He was standing right there.
JOHN cox: Hey. I --
RACHEL: You know?
JOHN COX: I've told a lot of people I
wish I could turn a lot of things around, but I can't,
can I?
RACHEL: No.
JOHN COX: No. No. Hey, I didn't want to
see anybody get hurt. Throughout my career, I don't
want to see anybody get hurt. And that's what it's all
about. But some things are beyond our control .
sometimes, aren't they?
RACHEL: Yeah. Is there a
JOHN COX: What I -- what we're doing right
now is that we, we've asked one of the fellows to see
if he can verify whether or not your mom has been
notified.
RACHEL: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: And if we can do it in a hurry,
C O
25
maybe we can. If we can't, hey, can certainly get back
to you later. but we can contact your mother's lawyer
and -- excuse me. And I'm sure we must have an address
for your mother someplace, but it may be a little
easier to have the lawyer inform her --
RACHEL: Yeah. The lawyer --
JOHN COX: -- that you have told us. And
maybe you'll want to broach this with David as to
releasing the identity of the infant. I don't want to
bring it up with him again, to tell you the truth. I
mean, I, I really don't. I feel that if he wants to
discuss it with me, that's fine.
RACHEL: Umhum.
JOHN COX: And, and, as I said, it's pure
speculation on our part that it was an infant daughter.
RACHEL: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: And I, and I don't know why, but
that's all we have. And, and, so, we're not pursuing
that in any press conferences because I don't know and,
and, to my knowledge, no one has said. And I don't
think - you know, I'm not here for all the dialogue 24
hours a day, but I don't know that David has, has
pursued that with either -- any of the guys in the
daytime. I'm here at night all the time, but -- you
know, from 6 at night to 6 in the morning. But --
RACHEL: Um-hum.
you'd
Can y
hear
you t
I don
he'd
have
else
word
there
26
JOHN COX: -- I don't know if he has and
probably have a better idea of that than I would.
ou - do you recall if he may have?
RACHEL: If, if he --
JOHN COX: Has discussed that death?
RACHEL: Not that I'm aware of, but I don't
all the conversation stuff.
JOHN COX: No. But, you know, he's closer to
han he is to me.
RACHEL: And I, I don't - I'm -- you know.
t think so --
JOHN COX: Well --
RACHEL: -- anymore.
JOHN COX: If he discusses it with you and
rather not discuss it with me but would rather
you discuss it, we'll do it that way.
RACHEL: Umhum.
JOHN COX: You know? But I don't know who
you'd have to be advised unless you just want the
to get out to the media.
RACHEL: Yeah, I mean - yeah. Yeah --
JOHN COX: yeah.
RACHEL: That doesn't really matter here or
JOHN COX: No.
RACHEL: You know, just for, for those - you
O O
27
know, relatives or family or whatever that's wondering
what's going on or whatever. But --
JOHN COX: I can only tell you the note that
was just passed to me was that ATP had not notified
Mrs. Jones because they had no independent
confirmation. Well, as far as I'm concerned, I have
independent confirmation.
RACHEL: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: Okay?
RACHEL: But it's definitely --
JOHN COX: And, so, we will, we will inform
our superiors that in fact we --
UNIDENTIFIED AGENTS IN BACKGROUND!: Not
discernible.!
JOHN COX: Yeah. Somebody just told me that
Kathy Schneider has said that --
RACHEL: Schroeder.
JOHN COX: I'm -- excuse me.
RACHEL: Not Schneider.
JOHN COX: Excuse me. Excuse me.
RACHEL: You know that - this, this is
neither here nor there, but in the press briefing, I
don't know if it was today or yesterday, that they said
- they, they referred to Kathy Schroeder --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
RACHEL: as being Judy --
O O
28
JOHN COX: Judy Schroeder?
RACHEL: I had -- no, they, they said Judy
Schneider, I think, over the radio.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
RACHEL: Anyway, so -- but people aren't
aware of everybody and names and -- you know.
JOHN COX: Hey, there's an awful lot of them.
RACHEL: You know, so it's kind of confusing.
They probably knew who he meant - I mean, they
probably knew what he meant.
JOHN COX: I mean, if a, if a female voice
picks up the, the telephone in there, I, I'm only
presuming it's one of two people, but it could be
anybody, right?
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: And, and that's where we run from
with there. But we will tell our, our people that you,
as his daughter, confirmed this thing, as you have
before, and, and that maybe the best route would be to
contact the lawyer and have him contact your mom. Huh?
RACHEL: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: Rather than one of our people
contacting her directly.
RACHEL: I was almost wondering, you know, if
she --
JOHN COX: Yeah.
29
RACHEL: -- did know somehow, because to me
it seems like -- you know, it seems kind of funny that
she would get me a lawyer and not him too, you know.
So, she might know something already. You know?
JOHN COX: Okay. What -- I've just been
slipped a little note here and it, and it appears that
the newspaper may have got the information about your
father's death through Kathy's attorney. Maybe your
mother is aware of that through a brother or sister,
some --
RACHEL: She --
JOHN COX: -- other means --
RACHEL: Yes. She could --
JOHN COX: -- maybe she isn't.
RACHEL: She may have found out from a --
JOHN COX: But we can --
RACHEL: -- you know.
JOHN COX: -- we can, we can contact the
attorney, we've got several phone numbers for the
attorney, and at least say we spoke to you tonight.
§ACHEL: Yeah. Because I, I know my other
relatives -- you know, some of them, you know, they
read the newspaper.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
RACHEL: So, she might already know, but --
JOHN COX: Yeah. Uhhuh?
O O
30
RACHEL: Saying that, you know, she didn't
have any money for that lawyer, then how, how is that
possible to have a lawyer for me, you know? How to --
JOHN COX: Hey. A lot of attorneys represent
people gratis. The other thing is, say you came out of
there and said that you were indigent, you know. When,
when you come out you go through the, the judicial
process. Of course, the first thing you're going to do
is be, be checked medically to make sure you don't have
any injuries and anything like that. But then you
would go before a United States Probation Officer who
is an officer of the court who answers to a Federal
Judge. Okay? Not an officer of the court that answers
to the FBI or anyone else. Works for the Judicial
Branch. The FBI is part of the Executive Branch. And
the probation officers interview each person before
they have their initial appearance before the judge to
determine their financial status, their marital status,
or education. You know, to get a little background
history of the person and to determine if they have the
financial means to hire an attorney. And if they do
not, the court appoints an attorney.
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Well, you, you'd be just like
anybody else if you said you didn't have the money to
appoint an attorney.
O G
31
RACHEL: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: I'm sure this individual knows
that and may feel that he can represent you better than
somebody else. And the --
RACHEL: Does he know --
JOHN COX: -- and the Government ends up
paying for attorneys in that case.
RACHEL: Do you know if it's a court-
appointed lawyer?
JOHN COX: It cannot be a court-appointed
lawyer until you have your initial appearance before --
RACHEL: Until I was, you know, to go
before --
JOHN COX: That's right.
RACHEL: That's, that's --
JOHN cox: That's right.
RACHEL: So, he may be doing it just out of,
you know, good will or whatever?
JOHN COX: Yeah. There's an awful lot Of
attorneys, as I told both Steve and David in the past,
that have offered free legal counsel to the people
inside there.
RACHEL: Hmm.
JOHN COX: As a matter of fact, there was a
group named Cause, I believe, it was, or something like
that, about eight lawyers who, who belong to that
92
32
group. It's similar to ACLU or something like that.
And they have been in town for awhile and have
indicated that they would provide free legal service to
anyone. And these aren't just, you know, some young
fellow out of law school.
RACHEL: Well, I hope this ones a good one.
JOHN COX: Oh, I'm sure he is. I don't, I
don't think any people that are getting involved in
this are folks just out of law school.
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: well, and, and I personally
wouldn't want to see it that way either. Basically, I
feel everybody deserves the best they can, they can
have.
RACHEL: Yeah, definitely.
JOHN COX: That's what the system is all
about. The, the other thing is, as far as the deceased
in there were concerned, and it was, and I guess still
is, ATF's responsibility for getting the confirmation
and everything, but I will inform my supervisors, who
are dealing with ATP supervisors, what you've told me
and maybe we can run with it that way and --
RACHEL: Okay.
JOHN COX: I don't know why we couldn't.
Hey, as I've told Steve and as I've told you before and
everybody else, it's, it's not a personal issue with
I 2133
me. I don't have a vendetta. None of us do out here.
Not one of the guys that's been talking to anybody in
there wants to do it any way but the easy way and the
peaceful way. You know, and maybe some of our voices
may be, may be coming across better than others, but
our intentions are all the same. And I, and I hope, I
hope -- whoops. Hello?
RACHEL: Hello.
JOHN COX: Hello?
RACHEL: Hello.
JOHN COX: Hey, still here.
RACHEL: Yeah, I'm here.
JOHN COX: You know, and I'm sure, I'm sure
everybody in there feels the same way about it. well,
it's a matter of time and, and -- when the time's
right, it's just a lot of the, a lot of the supervisory
people get pretty frustrated and they say hey, we've
got some people out some time ago. Nothing's happened.
What's the delay? Why are we dragging our feet in
there? And as I mentioned to David I didn't get to
mention it to Steve. I think he's going to hit the
hay.
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: He said that I've got some people"
lined up here and he's going to crash drive. But --
RACHEL: Yeah, he's been going --
JOQN COX: What we
RACHEL: -- all day.
JOHN COX: What I mentioned
he won't have -- David won't have the
with Steven and, and David Number One
have --
RACHEL: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: -- is I, I think
looking for out here is -- not a sign34
to, to David, and
personal contact
that you will
what we're
from you. What
we're looking is what do you want us to do to assure
YOU "" and DOt YOU, YOU as B QIOUP "" to assure you of
our intentions, how things are going to happen. You
know, what - number one, number two, number three,
number four, what issues do you want answered out here
that would be reassuring to you to resolve this and to
get the people to come out. Now, David has told me
he's waiting for the Word and -- but the Word doesn't
mean everybody else has to wait for the, for the word,
and he said they were all free to leave any time they
want. But I understand that.
RACHEL: Should we want to.
JOHN COX: And -- but I understand that. And
I truly understand that. But other than the Word, you
know, are there certain significant things that we
would have to do to reassure you of our standing? You
know, I've told David, hey, we're knocking on the door.
We ' 1'8 T1Ot
to?
to?
our
they're right here. We35
kicking in the door.
RACHEL: Well --
JOHN COX: We - our arms are open.
RACHEL: Who's to say that you're not going
JOHN COX: I'm sorry?
RACHEL: Who's to say that you're not going
I mean, those Bradleys are right out here in
JOHN COX: They've been -- they --
RACHEL: - right across our --
JOHN COX: They've been out there for 17 --
RACHEL: Wait --
JOHN COX: -- days, though, haven't they?
RACHEL: No. They're closer now. I mean,
have a road right here in front
of the house.
JOHN COX: Uhhuh.
RACHEL: I mean --
JOHN COX: Yeah, but they've been out --
RACHEL: They're right out --
JOHN COX: -- there --
RACHEL: -- in, in our grass now.
JOHN COX: They've been out there for --
RACHEL: Nell, they're closer - JOHN COX:
-- 17 days and no one's been hurt.
O I
36
RACHEL: Not that close though.
JOHN COX: No one's been hurt though, have
they?
RACHEL: Yeah, but they're, they're inching
their way. They're inching their way closer.
JOHN COX: Hey, what can I tell you?
RACHEL: And pretty soon they'll be at the
door. That's the way I feel. y
JOHN COX: Well, we've been -- as I told
David and as I told Steven and I'm sure I told you and
Judy and others, that we have knocked on the door 17
days ago and we said we're here, the medical
treatment's here, the judicial system's here, the
lawyers are here. All you've got to do --
RACHEL: Um-hum. And --
JOHN COX: -- is come out.
RACHEL: - they're getting closer and closer
and closer.
JOHN COX: Well ~-
RACHEL: And they're going to be 15 feet away
before you know it. And then they're going to be right
inside this little gate here and at the door.
JOHN COX: But we've been talking for 17
days, haven't we?
RACHEL: Yeah, but I still say what I said,
right?
O O
37
JOHN COX: Well --
RACHEL: And I know you're not going to tell
me yes, because it's your job and all this stuff. I
mean, you're not going to give it away or anything. I
mean, I realize that. I'm not stupid.
JOHN COX: Well, the only thing I can tell
you is, is what, what's in my heart and what's in
everybody that's been talking in here, is that we hope
this can be resolved peacefully. And I believe that
that's your intention too.
RACHEL: Yeah. We hope it is too, but --
JOHN COX: And --
RACHEL: -- that's not to say on your part
that --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
RACHEL: -- you won't do otherwise.
JOHN COX: No, I can't tell you that.
RACHEL: I know you can't. Because it --
JOHN COX: And I, and I wouldn't. I
wouldn't. Because what happen -- what would happen if
something crazy went on in there? You know, I mean, if
somebody just snapped and started doing something
crazy? I would say we have to react to it, huh? If we
had to rescue the lives of, of infants and children and
things like that, we would have to react to that. But
we don't want to. We want to --
RACHEL: W
here did something f
JOHN COX:
in there. You know.
can do to resolve it
RACHEL: W
JOHN COX:
me John, these are t
concerned about or t
and if you do one, t
tone! - we are -- I
RACHEL:
JOHN COX:
here. I think that
we as John, we as th
see some positive si
would you like us to
RACHEL: I
know, questions that
guarantee, you know,
JOHN COX:
RACHEL:
so.
JOHN COX:
RACHEL: I
in --No38
ell, what do you mean? If somebody
irst?
If somebody's rubber band snapped
we're trying to do everything we
peacefully --
ell, I'm not
-- and if, and if, and if you tell
he issues that David is most
hat Steven is most disturbed about,
wo, three, four, and five -- dial
have no idea what that is.
- we are going to come out of
s what we're looking for. And not
e command people out here want to
gn. You know, what in the world
do?
don't think you can guarantee, you
we have, I don't think you can
certain things --
What --
- that it's not in your power to do
What?
mean, I've been to court before
C O
39
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
RACHEL: - '88 when - I
JOHN COX: You haven't been in Federal Court
though, have you?
RACHEL: It's probably, probably worse.
JOHN COX: No, no, no. Hey, believe me. I
lose cases in Federal Court too. And we just don't
always win one. I just spent --
RACHEL: Do you believe in everything you do,
that you're doing the right thing, that --
JOHN COX: yeah.
RACHEL: -- the people on the other side are
guilty?
JOHN COX: Well, I believe that I would not
be getting an indictment or bill of information against
someone unless in my own mind I felt they had violated
the law. And I'll tell you the truth, I just had a
very lengthy investigation before I came up here, spent
a lot of time on it, a lot of effort, months of
investigation, and two people entered guilty pleas.
One went to trial. It was a lengthy trial, and the man
was found guilty sic!. In my heart, did I think he
was guilty? Yes. The jury of 12 peers said he was not
guilty and I'm going about my business. You know, I
don't have any personal animosity towards that man. As
a matter of fact, I guess we shook hands more than
O O
40
once. And it's my job to investigate them. It's not
my job to try them. That's --
RACHEL: No, what I'm saying is every -- in
your line of work, every person on the other side of
you that you've worked with, do you feel that they're
guilty? Has there ever been anyone that you thought in
your mind that was not guilty and you --
JOHN COX: Tried them?
RACHEL: -- you want --
JOHN COX: And I tri--
RACHEL: And you didn't want to persecute --
pursuing it, because you thought in your mind these
people are innocent or this person is innocent?
JOHN COX: If I thought somebody was
innocent, I would not want to pursue it at all, no.
I'll tell you that.
RACHEL: Did you? Have you ever not pursued
it if you thought they were innocent?
JOHN COX: sure. Absolutely. You know --
RACHEL: You had to --
JOHN COX: -- but just so many of our cases
are investigated, not the way this is being
investigated, so --
RACHEL: I'm --
JOHN COX: -- many of them are investigated
because somebody gives you some information about some
41
presumed wrongdoing, whether it's a bank, on a bank
fraud embezzlement case, whether it's -- you know,
whatever type of crime it could be. And then we have
to look into it to see hey, is there wrongdoing, isn't
there wrongdoing? It's, it's just like if somebody
files a civil rights complaint against a police officer
for, for beating them. We go out and we investigate
both sides of it, and we investigate the complainant's
side of it. We investigate the law enforcement side of
it. We put the package together and it goes to the
Department of Justice, and they determine whether or
not there will be a prosecution. We're the
investigators; we're not the prosecutors.
RACHEL: I understand that.
JOHN COX: And, and believe me, I would not
waste my time investigating something if I believed --
RACHEL: But do you have --
JOHN COX: -- there was no violation.
RACHEL: -- do you have the prerogative to do
that? Because you have bosses above you in that's your
job and you have to do what you're told to do.
JOHN COX: No. We talk to our bosses. We
communicate with our bosses. And, and - at least
where I work and where I've worked and, hey, it's been
for 30 years.
RACHEL: Oh, that's right. I, I - you 11 or
~CO
42
how many of, how many -e
JOHN
RACHEL: -- of you
Steve and someCOX: Right. -
men that have talked to
of us here --
JOHN COX: UhhUh.
RACHEL: Is it 11 or 12?
JOHN
keeping count.COX: Lord, I don't know. I'm not
RACHEL: Anyway ~
JOHN COX: Could be. What?
RACHEL: I lost my, my train of thought.
Strike the --
JOHN
something? I,
else, but I'll
pretty seriousCOX: Would, would these 11 do
I'm not in a position to talk for anyone
tell you one thing. when - we're
about -- in the Bureau you raise your
right hand to uphold the Constitution of the United
States and laws of the of the United States. we
believe that - and, and I teach police officers and I
teach police schools, and, and many of the people who
have talked to you people in there do. And we
basically tell them when we're teaching them: if you
don't take it seriously, find another line of work.
And that's, that's the way we believe in it. We
believe in the system.
RACHEL: Oh, yeah.
O O
43
JOHN COX: And, as I've probably told you and
I've told David and Steven, a lot of people may not
like the system. It's the best one in the world
though, you know, as far as the, the jury of your peers
are concerned. And all of the people that are here
talking to you and talking to David and Steven, we're,
we're volunteers per se as well. We're away from home
and away from our families and -- many of us could have
gone home some time ago, but we're here because we '
believe in what we're doing.
RACHEL: Oh, I remember now what I was going
to say. -
JOHN COX: Go ahead.
RACHEL: I was going to say all of the
negotiators that are, that are involved --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh?
RACHEL: -- in this, I heard, I don't
remember where I heard it from, that you're the best in
this country.
JOHN COX: we seem to think we are, but it's
not because we're on an ego trip or anything else.
We've --
RACHBL: No. So, in that --
JOHN COX: just had a lot of training.
RACHEL: So, in that case, you would have the
right to choose if, you know, you wanted to pursue it,
44
you know, if you thought they were guilty or not guilty
or whatever. Do you have that prerogative?
JOHN COX: I'm missing what you're doing
here. Do I have the prerogative as a negotiator --
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: -- to say that somebody in there
is --
RACHBL: No, to, to, to want to negotiate.
You know, if you think that they're -- if you think
that they're guilty or not guilty, can you say no, I
don't want to take on that job.
JOHN COX: To negotiate?
RACHEL: You see what I'm saying?
JOHN COX: No. Basically - I'll tell you
what the bottom-line job of a negotiator is, if you
haven't figured it out already, and it's to resolve a
situation peacefully and to get everybody out of a
situation, whether it's this situation, whether it's a
bank robber holding somebody someplace else, but our
job is the peaceful resolution. And part of our job is
not to investigate it. We are merely communicators.
We're facilitators between you people and the people
who are in charge out here making the decisions. And
other people, in reality, the Texas Rangers, are --
RACHEL: I don't really under--
JOHN COX: - going to be conduct, conducting
O O
45
the investigation.
RACHEL: I don't really understand what, what
their --
JOHN COX: Why?
RACHEL: -- job is.
JOHN COX: I'm sorry?
RACHEL: I don't understand what their job
is.
JOHN COX: The Texas Rangers?
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Well, they are, I guess - I don't
want to call them the premier state law enforcement
agency in the State of Texas, but they answer to the
Governor of the State of Texas as a law enforcement
body. Okay? with a long history.
RACHEL: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: You know, back in the Old West, I
guess.
RACHEL: Um-hum
JOHN COX: And they're considered a group of
real professionals --
RACHEL: That's all I remember them as, you
know, oldtimers.
JOHN COX: Well, as I've found, there's a
museum in town here.
RACHEL: Yeah. see, that's all I can think
O '0
46
of, but I have a hard time --
JOHN COX: The Texas Rangers Museum, that I
got to go through a couple weeks ago.
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: And they - to try to have an
independent unbiased law enforcement agency investigate
the crime scene, interview people, et cetera, they have
been designated to do this. And, and we all are, are
pretty satisfied with that, because they would
investigate homicide investigations and-any other
crimes. Not the ATP, not the FBI. They will be
conducting the major investigation. Now, they may use
the FBIs crime lab for assistance, the FBIs, you
know, fingerprint experts for assistance, anybody that
they ask for from a laboratory standpoint or a
scientific investigation standpoint will probably be
happy to help them.
RACHEL: So, are they the ones that come in
say, like after this is all over, are they the ones
that come into this house and --
JOHN COX: Yes.
RACHEL: investigate everything?
JOHN COX: Yes.
RACHEL: Okay. I --
JOHN COX: Yes.
RACHEL: - understand now.
is a neutr
don't see
mean, they
the road.
publicity47
JOHN COX: And, and it's really to say: this
al body that will do this.
RACHEL: uh-nun .
JOHN COX: You know. And, and --
RACHEL: How did they --
JOHN COX: -- we think it's --
RACHEL: -- become that way?
JOHN COX: -- a pretty good idea.
RACHEL: How did they become that way? I
how a person can be neutral.
JOHN COX: The same -- well, why not? I
're going to take it right down the middle
Can you imagine the notoriety and the
and everything else that this case has
gotten? We -- sure you can, you know.
realize th
kind of st
believe yoRACHEL: I'm probably a little bit --
JOHN COX: Radio, TV --
RACHEL: -- shy of it. Yeah, I mean, I
ere's a lot of people, but --
JOHN COX: Front page stories and all that
uff. Well, you have to.
RACHEL: Guess it feels kind of hard to
u're involved in something like that, you
know? You know, a person that has been raised likeof
everybody else. You know, you grow up - a little girl
grow up all your life and -- all of a sudden, man, the
48
whole world knows about you.
JOHN COX: Yeah. Yeah.
RACHEL: Just kind of seems bizarre.
JOHN COX: Hey, the other thing is that
anyone that's, that's been communicating - you know,
any of us, 11 or 12 or how many, you keep -- you may
keep better figures on that --
RACHEL: I'm --
JOHN COX: ~ than I do.
RACHEL: - not exactly sure I -- heard you
to say -
JOHN COX: Yeah. The numbers really mean
nothing to me.
RACHEL: I don't really know.
JOHN COX: But, as, as I've told Steven
before and, and I'm sure I told David, that any of us
are susceptible to testify in court if we're asked to
testify, whether it's by a defense attorney or
prosecution attorney as to, you know, the, the attitude
and the mind-set and the, and the people that we have
talked to. You know, not to just were they
belligerent, arrogant, scared, frightened, all of this,
but were they productive, were they helpful, you know,
were they, were they trying to solve a problem, were
they not trying to solve a problem, or anything else.
We can be asked to testify and, believe me, we would,
49
would -- none of us are going to get on a witness stand
and perjure ourselves. We've got too much at stake,
our lives, our families, and other things. So, we're
going to get up there and tell the truth. That's the
way we operate.
RACHEL: Umhum.
JOHN COX: And that's not to try and throw
you a curve, to throw, throw tricks at you. The,
the --
RACHEL: No. Just obeying the law.
JOHN COX: Hey, I want you out of there
safely. I want David out of there safely. I want
everybody else out of there safely. No one person in
there means any more than anyone else to me, or to any
of us. We just want a successful resolution to the
situation. And --
RACHEL: Well, I hope --
JOHN COX: -- we can be see
RACHEL: -- I hope the rest
does too.
' JOHN cox: Well, we do. We
RACHEL: I, I know they say
they/re getting closer and closer.
JOHN COX: They're probably
closer yet.
RACHEL: Yeah. That's whatof your Agency
do.
they do, but
going to get
I'm saying.
92O
50
They're going to end up right ~-
JOHN COX: And "
RACHEL: - at the door.
JOHN COX:
you know, we can go
said: wait. David
he got - you know,
58 minutes and, and
didn't help matters
him after that when
are all saying hey,
And, and because he-- and one of the reasons is that,
way back to the day that David
said he got a message "wait" after
the, the world got to hear him for
that didn't help matters. It
for us to try and communicate with
the, when the, the command people
what's going on here. You know?
got the message "wait." The
message could have said "go" just as well as it said
"wait," but I understand that. Or I try to understand
that. And, then, for six days after little Heather
came up, there were six days before anyone came out.
And, to tell you the truth, I'm surprised that some
things didn't happen on the second day or the third day
instead of waiting six days before the, the electricity
go off.
RACHEL: Are you a strict Catholic?
JOHN COX:
Catholic? Do I, doOh, I don't know. What's a strict
I practice my religion? Yes, I do.
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Do I raise my children as best I
can? Yes, I do. Am I going to get into a theology
51
lesson with you? No, I'm not,
RACHEL: No, because I'm not a theologian and
I couldn't anyway.
JOHN COX: Why? What are you driving at?
RACHEL: No. I'm just answering the que--
oh, you mean about the first question I asked you?
JOHN COX: No, about whether I'm a strict
Catholic.
RACHEL: Oh, well, because we were talking
about "wait," you know, and if --
JOHN COX: Um-hum.
RACHEL: -- you believe in God and I -- you
know, I believe in God, then --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
RACHEL: -- you know, that's what -- that's
why we're still here, is only because of those, you
know, reasons. And a lot of people seem to forget
that, and I don't know how much they --
JOHN COX: Well, you know we could go way
back to Matthew 24 and talk about false prophets and we
could talk about the, the Ten Commandments or the, the
ceremonial commandments or we could talk about William
Miller in 1818 and spin it off in talking about
something that happened between 1843 and 1844. But,
you know --
- RACHEL: Well, I see you're --
JOHN COX: - the flood and --
RACHEL: -- I see you're not the average,
everyday Catholic.
JOHN COX: Why?
[End of tape 11X]
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #13x
3/17/93
11:01 p.m. - 11:17 p.m.
i
92 I
922
Tape 13x!
JOHN COX: And, and it doesn't do us any good
to mull over it or to be concerned about it or worry
about it. We go on --
scorw saucer: Right.
JOHN COX: - and do something else and, and
yet in our own mind we believe somebody's guilty.
scomm ssnosx: Right.
JOHN COX: But the system says you're
innocent until proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
scorr SENOBI: Right.
JOHN COX: You know, and, and that is drummed
and drummed and drummed into the minds of jurors. And
the other thing, when anybody comes out of there --
SCOTT SENOBI: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: -- they will be given the
opportunity through their lawyers or independently, if
they'd want to do it on their own, to give statements
to us, give statements to the Rangers, whomever it may
be --
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: -- as to their side of the story.
You know, and I may have been explaining to Rachel that
the FBI is, is designated as the, as the agency, agency
to investigate civil rights cases, police brutality
cases, and - that's another example where we take
92
3
these things right down the middle of the road. We, we
receive complaints from individuals, that they feel
that they, you know, had their rights violated and, you
know, we totally investigate those things being
neutral. And we accept both sides of the story. We
put the package together. We send it up to Washington,
D. C. We make no recommendations. We're merely
investigators. And, and that's the way it goes. we've
done the same thing in the Rodney King case out in
California, you know. And the Texas Rangers are going
to do the same thing in this case.
SCOTT SENOBI: Umhum.
JOHN COX: They have to.
scorr saucer: Yeah. n
JOHN COX: You know, and they'd be foolish
not to. So, that's the way the system works.
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: And all -- and I'm not out here to
stroke you. I'm not out here to lie to you. I feel as
long as people are communicating, hopefully we can
successfully resolve this thing without anybody getting
hurt. And --
SCOTT SENOBI: Well, that's the last thing we
want to happen --
JOHN COX: Hey, it's just -- you, you know
we're going to be here. If you want to pick up the
4
phone, you can pick up the phone and talk to us. If
you have a message you want to get out to somebody --
SCOTT SENOBI: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: -- we'll certainly do that. But
we're going to be here and - as long as somebody's in
there. Kathy came out
SCOTT SENOBI:
JOHN COX: --
going on. She saw her,
understand, probably go
hasn't already been rel
SCOTT SENOBI:
JOHN COX: An
SCOTT SENOBI:
JOHN COX: YO
up. She hasn't been --
SCOTT SENOBI:
JOHN COX: --
SCOTT SENOBI:
JOHN COX: YO
SCOTT SENOBI:
conference today that l
JOHN COX: We
SCOTT SBNOBI:Right
and she found out what was
her child. She's, from what I
ing to be released, if she
eased.
Yeah.
d -_
So --
u know,
Yeah.
kickedshehasn't been beaten
around.
I just had a question though.
u bet.
Okay.
ike she
ll, she
And I
she wasn't guilty of anything,It
was
was
was
howwas said on the news
in shackles?
like curious. If
-- why would they do
that to her? You, you indiscernible! --
O ' I
5
JOHN COX: Why? Because she had been --
SCOTT SENOBI: Indiscernible!.
JOHN COX: she had been placed under
arrest.
SCOTT SENOBI: Because she had?
JOHN COX: Yeah. As a mater-- she'd been
charged as a material witness.
SCOTT SENOBI: So, that is like under arrest,
basically?
JOHN COX: At least for a period of time it
is, and then bond has to be set. And someone raises
bond and they're released under -- on bond until they
have to appear at the next judicial proceeding.
SCOTT SENOBI: Oh, because I, I was like, you
know --
JOHN COX: Until there's a bond hearing.
SCOTT SENOBI: If you -- it's like, you know,
if you're not -- if you're innocent till proven guilty,
why would they chain you up, you know, to - just to go
to the courthouse. That, that doesn't make too much
sense.
JOHN COX: Well, I'd be crazy if I didn't
tell you. You come out of that place - to- if you
came out of there tonight --
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: -- you would be greeted by
6
somebody. And you'd say wow, look at all the guns and
look at all these guys, and --
SCOTT SENOBI: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: -- they would pat you down and a
female agent -- FBI agent would pat your wife down to
make sure that nobody's armed --
sco'r'r SI-INOBI: Right.
JOHN COX: -- for their own safety, for
everybody's safety.
SCOTT SENOBI: Oh, yeah. I can understand
that, yeah.
JOHN COX: And then you would be handcuffed,
I'm sure -- or flexed-cuffed. Whatever.
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: And --
SCOTT SENOBI: I hope they wouldn't --
JOHN COX: -- and taken into a custodial
situation. You would be advised of your rights and you
would be taken down to the -- if you need medical
attention, of course we have some medical people out
there, but if you said you had an injury, you know,
whatever --
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: -- that's where you go first.
SCOTT SENOBI: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: We take --
SCOTT SENOBI: Oh, does --
JOHN COX: - we take care of that first.
All right?
SCOTT SENOBI: Okay.
JOHN COX: Because that's the serious issue
first.
SCOTT SENOBI: Right.
JOHN COX: And then, you know, you may end u
staying in a hospital ward for awhile and maybe the,
the U. S. Probation people and the U. S. Magistrate
would come over where you are.
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: If you - if some doctor says hey
this person has to stay here for this period of time,
that's the way it is.
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: You know. The shackles come off,
you stay where you are.
SCOTT SENOBI: Right.
JOHN COX: And I'm not telling you some
sheriff's deputy or somebody else might not be sitting
outside there.
SCOTT SENOBI: Oh, right.
JOHN COX:' But I, I met the sheriff here and
he runs the jail, and that's where the people that are
coming out there go initially. And --
8
SCOTT SENOBI: Umhum.
JOHN COX: - and he's a, a gentleman. He's
a class guy.
SCOTT SENOBI: Oh, the guy that talked to
Steve the --
JOHN COX: Yes.
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah, he is.
JOHN COX: He is a real gentleman. And, and
he's, he's been up here several times. we've talked to
him. Very sincere about, you know, a peaceful
resolution here. So, if you had no injuries, if you
didn't have any, any problems along those lines, you
would, you would -- when you came out, you would meet
a, a U. S. Probation Officer and the U. S. Probation
Officer would obtain background information from you
and the same thing from Cita and -- you know, your
financial background, your children. I'm sure when you
come out, the first thing that you'll see if your
children. I think we'd make arrangements to see that
that happens, and I'm sure you'd like to, huh?
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah. Yeah.
JOHN COX: Well --
SCOTT SENOBI: For sure.
JOHN COX: - you, you'd see them and, and at
least have some, some assurances that they're being
taken care of and that they're in good health and,
O O
9
and --
SCOTT SENOBI: Uh-huh .
JOHN COX: - and that's important.
SCOTT SENOBI: Right.
JOHN COX: And then you'd see the Probation
Officer, I guess, and they'd spend time with you -- or
she would spend time with you going over your
background. You, you'd meet with your lawyer.
SCOTT SENOBI: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: And you would meet a U. S.
Magistrate Judge, who would advise you of your rights,
any charges against you --
SCOTT SENOBI: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: -- your total rights as a citizen,
not only Miranda rights and other things --
SCOTT SENOBI: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: -- and set a date for a bond
hearing, which would probably be one or two days down
the line.
SCOTT SENOBI: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: Well -- '
SCOTT SENOBI: All right.
JOHN COX: And, and that's basically the way
the system works. And, then, the Judge would meet with
you and your lawyer, and Cita and her lawyer, or if you
have the same lawyer, and go through a judicial
10
procedure and --
SCOTT SENOBI: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: -- set bond. And whatever the
bond is set, you know, your attorney can say hey, I'd
like to recommend that the bond be reduced, or, or
whatever, and it's up --
SCOTT SENOBI: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: -- to the Judge.
SCOTT SENOBI: Right.
JOHN COX: But the first thing what'll --
that will happen with you, I'm sure you'll see your
children first. Cita will see the children first, and
then from there to -- on to the medical facility. Does
she have any medical problems that we ought to be aware
of?
SCOTT SENOBI: Not to my knowledge, no.
JOHN COX: Yeah. Okay. Well, if she did,
those are the kind of things we want to know about
so --
SCOTT SENOBI: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: -- at least people can have a
heads-up that these are the potential problems coming
out of there from a, a physical standpoint and that
have to be addressed right away.
SCOTT SENOBI: Right.
JOHN COX: And the same as with Judy and, you
ll
know, with other people that have, have problems in
there. David, too, that I talked to tonight too, David
Jones.
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: He may have a little problem
sitting down. I don't know. He said that's where --
as a matter of fact, we got off the phone because I
think his mom was on the radio or something like that
and he wanted to --
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: -- listen to his mother. And I
guess he decided to call it a night. But he was saying
that he got shot right through the back pocket or
something and --
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: -- he thinks it may have hit a
bone.
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah, because --
JOHN COX: And --
SCOTT SENOBI: -- he still has it sticking in
the skin and he pulled it out.
JOHN COX: Oh, is that -- the bullet was?
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah, something like that.
JOHN COX: Is that right? '
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah, he saw a piece of metal
in his pants pocket.
0 O
12
JOHN COX: You're both in about the same boat
then, huh?
SCOTT SBNOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Well believe me, if there is
any questions we can answer for you, for Cita, for
anybody else in there, all you got to do is pick up
that phone. And, and I don't care what time of day or
night it is, either that phone or the -- you know,
where the other phone is --
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: - and somebody will be here to
talk to you.
sco'r'r s1»:nos1= All right.
JOHN COX: Any, anything else I can do for
you? N
SCOTT SENOBI: That's about it.
JOHN COX: Anybody else there want to talk to
me?
SCOTT SENOBI: No. I think they're all -- I
think they went to sleep here.
JOHN COX: You're it, huh?
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Okay. Well --
SCOTT SENOBI: I'm the designated talker.
JOHN COX: Laughter.! well, as I, as I
told, as I told Rachel, as I told the others --
O O
13
SCOTT SENOBI: No, they, they just told me
you wanted to talk to me.
JOHN COX: Yeah. If there's any answers --
you know, anything we can answer for you, don't
hesitate to ask.
SCOTT SENOBI: Okay.
JOHN COX: -- because we want to make it as
easy as possible. We want to resolve it and we're not
going to sit out here for two or three months waiting
for it to be resolved. There's people that get
frustrated out here and --
SCOTT SENOBI: Right. Just tell them not to
get trigger-happy.
JOHN COX: Well, we don't want it to happen
and --
SCOTT SENOBI: Laughter.!
JOHN COX: -- we've told you we have no
intention of it happening, and I hope you believe me.
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Okay?
SCOTT SENOBI: I guess I have to, huh?
JOHN COX: Either that or you come out.
SCOTT SENOBI: Right. Okay.
JOHN COX: You alway-- you, you control your
destiny, don't you? I don't.
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
14
JOHN COX: I can try and facilitate it, but
you're going to do what you think is right.
SCOTT SENOBI: Right. I have to. I won't be
able --
JOHN COX: Day --
SCOTT SENOBI: -- to live with myself --
JOHN COX: -- come out and we'll meet, pat
you on the back, and you'll get on your way.
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah. All right.
JOHN COX: Okay?
SCOTT SENOBI: Yeah.
JOHN COX: You --
SCOTT SENOBI: I'll talk to you some other
time.
JOHN COX: -- you have a good night and --
SCOTT SENOBI: Oh, hold on a --
JOHN COX: -- tell Cita I said hello too,
will you?
SCOTT SENOBI: Wayne wants to talk to you for
a second.
JOHN COX: Okay.
WAYNE: Do you know who I am?
JOHN COX: Hey, you're up kind of late
tonight, aren't you?
WAYNE: Yeah. This phone business is keeping
me up. It's in my room.
' 15
JOHN COX: well, throw them out. Tell them
to use the other one.
WAYNE: Well, the other one is, is causing
somebody else to stay up. They don't want you to use
that either.
JOHN COX: I guess you're playing second
fiddle. Is thatwhat you're trying to tell me?
WAYNE: I'm trying to tell you both of those
phones are my phones.
JOHN COX: They are?
WAYNE: Yes. And who's paying the bills on
these phones since, what is it, February 28th?
JOHN COX: I really don't think you got a
hill.
WAYNE: You don't think I'm going to have --
JOHN COX: No.
WAYNE: -- to pay a bill?
JOHN COX: I think, I think we got straight
lines here.
WAYNE: Okay. So, if you --
JOHN COX: was that your major concern
tonight? This is John.
WAYNE: No. My major --
JOHN COX: Do you know who it is?
wmmr-:= No, I don't.
JOHN COX: Yeah. I've talked to you before
92
16
several times.
WAYNE: Which John is it?
JOHN COX: John Number 1. John Cox.
WAYNE: Okay. John Cox.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
WAYNE: Well, I'm confused.
JOHN COX: Aren't we all?
WAYNE: Laughter.! Well. No, that wasn't
my only concern, but I, I'm more concerned that these
phones don't keep me up all night.
JOHN COX: Whatever.
WAYNE: So --
JOHN COX: If you want to say good night, we
can say good night.
WAYNE: I'd appreciate it.
JOHN COX: Okay.
WAYNE: Okay.
JOHN COX: You -- hey, listen. Will you be
talking to Steven and, and, and David in the morning?
Because I, I had a long chat with Rachel - I was _
talking to Steven earlier. He said he was going to
crash. Obviously, since he's in your room, he can
crash someplace else and it's not his problem, is it?
If you're going to be talking to Steven and David in
the morning and -- I told them look, these guys around
here with me and, and all the other people that have
17
talked to you and David and Steven, the negotiators per
se, we have a lot of patience. That's our job. You
know. We can, we can talk till the cows come home and
try and resolve this thing peacefully, and that's the
name of the game for us. But there are a lot of other
people that get very frustrated due to a lack of
inactivity and they want to see some positive signs.
And I told Rachel that, that something that may help is
-- we all understand and I've talked to, to David many
times, and as have all the other fellows out here, that
the Lord told him to do something and he's waiting to
hear a word to tell him to do something else. And, and
I believe David believes that, and that's what counts.
But in talking to the people that we have to deal with,
they want to see positive signs, and they realize for
six days after Heather came out there were no positive
signs from their standpoint, which, which are tangible,
positive signs. From a negotiation standpoint, I can
tell you all kinds of positive signs. You know, no
injuries, nobody being hurt, no shots fired, nobody
being killed, all of these positive things. Right?
From a negotiator's standpoint. They want to see
tangible things happen that - and, to me, it would be
easy if David, Steven, you, whomever, put your heads
together and say all right, these are what we're
looking for and if we're look-- if we see these things,
then 20 people are coming out, 30 people18
are coming
out, 10 people are coming out, 20 - whatever. But if"
we see these things, one, two, three, four, this is
what we'll do. Instead of what happened
time, i.e., you know, if you let me make
we're all coming out, and then it didn't
a lot of people lost credibility on that
if somehow you can, in a discussion withthe first
the broadcast
happen. Well,
one. And, and
them tomorrow,
try and tell us, hey, these are things we're looking
for and if this -- if, if we see these things, this
will happen. I think it gives us some credibility with
the people we have to deal with. Do you
where I'm coming from?understand
WAYNE: Well, I think I understand what
you're saying. I don't know if I agree with it.
JOHN COX: I don't -- well, I -- you know, I
don't -- it's not my job to determine whether you agree
with it.
WAYNE: Well, I'm saying I'm not going to
repeat it unless I think it's, you know,
that's in David's best interests.something
JOHN COX: Well, repeat it to Steven then.
WAYNE: Well, I'm not going to repeat it to
anyone unless I think it's in David's best interests.
JOHN cox: Oh. Why not?
WAYNE: Well, for one thing, I can try to
19
make it perfectly clear to your agency over and over
again I don't work for you. I'm a private attorney.
JOHN COX: Hey, we're -- I don't want to be
in a position where we're treading water. I want to be
in a position where we're doing positive things. Where
we're doing positing things, where you'a1l are doing
positive things.
WAYNE: But I'm not on the FBI payroll.
JOHN COX: Whatever.
WAYNE: Okay.
JOHN COX: You --
WAYNE: So, I indiscernible! --
JOHN COX: -- you would like to have a
successful resolution, a safe, successful resolution to
this situation, I'm sure, wouldn't you?
WAYNE: I'm going to carry out my duties to
the best of my ability. Now, I don't do favors.
JOHN COX: Well, good.
WAYNE: Okay.
JOHN COX: I guess we have nothing else to
discuss this evening, huh?
WAYNE: I guess not.
JOHN COX: Okay. Good night.
WAYNE: Get some sleep.
JOHN COX: You bet.
[End of tape 13x.]
92,11
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE 14x
March 17, 1993
7:38 a.m. - 11:47 a.m.
§ O
2
Tape 14x!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- basically they told me
that -- apparently John Cox talked to Rachel last
night. In fact, when I left the room I remember she
was one of those that was going to talk to him, I
didn't get to hear the conversation.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But she was one and some of
the other women that said she was asked the same
questions that I was going to ask her --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - and to try to get a
dialogue going.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I guess apparently what
it was, she was asked about the safety of her children
and she said -- and they, they said, you know, with
them on the outside wouldn't she want to be with them
and she says yes, I do want to be with them, that's why
I see that they're safe with her now and they are with
me here now and at this moment I am not -- I don't want
to leave them go or be without me. And she said that
in front of the other women that were nearby and they
basically voiced the same thing as --
JOHN: Well, I'm sure David would not have
sent the other children out if he didn't think they
would be safe, you know?O
3
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that this is true,
you know. It was his decision, but of course he had to
ask the parents
that that's theand they says, well, okay if you think
better then we do want them safe and so
forth. So, I mean that, that is true, that's how that
did come about.So, I mentioned that to these women.
I haven't talked to him yet about it.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE
awake but
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
and I asked him - I mentioned
were talking about --
JOHN: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
we get this going, what doyouSCHNEIDER: He was - I think he was
he wanted some time to himself so I --
I went to the door there
basically what you and I
and that's about how can
see, what do you have to
say. And here's what he said. Now, you know,
sometimes he says things very abruptly and so forth
especially when I hit him when he's maybe
the Bible or he's in, he's in quiet. But
here's what he said. He said we're doing
wants us to do. He said you, you want to
magazines, that was discussed. what's inlooking at
basically
what God
give us
a magazine?
We don't need them, he said. Then he went on to say
4
you're wanting people to come out and to go prison for
what?
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You don't know what -- he
says you don't know what it was like here, you weren't
on the, you weren't on the receiving end of those
bullets, he says I was. He says it was me that went to
the door and opened the door to look out.
JOHN: Okay. Just --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Let me finish the statement
and then you can say anything you want.
JOHN: Sure, sure, sure, sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What did you expect us to
do? To lay down and, and give up our lives to be
trampled over? He says we're being investigated right
now, and he was referring to God. And then he said to
me, tell -- I says, well, I'm, I'm talking with John
Dolan, I says, I'm talking with John-2 and I says I
don't believe you've ever talked to him, I don't
recall, but I said I think he's a very decent guy and
I asked him if he wouldn't want to talk to you, I says,
or do you have anything special to say to him? And he
says, well, ask him, he says, ask him if he knows what
celebration is coming up. And he says, do you -- and
then he says and also ask him if he knows about the
Passover. He says, if not tell him to look it up. And
I
I
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that's basically all he said. And I wanted to -- you
know, I really wanted to sit down and communicate with
him but he didn't want to at that moment, at that time.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So maybe in just a little
while here I'm going to go back there and sit down and,
and try to talk details and, and see what he's got to
say. But a lot of times there are times where if I hit
him --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and he's looking the
Bible or he's in quiet meditation, he'll react to me,
he'll give me -- he'll tell me these things. He might
have more to say later, I don't know, but this is what
he wanted me to relate to you now.
JOHN: Yeah, and I appreciate that, Steve.
You know, Steve, I over the weeks or days, however
long it may be, you and I have grown probably as close
as anybody can on these type of situations. And, you
know, I want the best for you personally as well as I
want it for everybody inside. And, you know, that's,
that's not the best environment in the world for
anybody. I mean, the heat's bad for the kids, there's
no running water for the kids. You know, the people
who come out and get the § get, get in touch with the
authorities in the initial stages, I mean, that's in
everybodys best interest. It's just a good thing to
do, you know? Further, if we can somehow arrange for
women and children to come, it will perceive -- you
know, it'll be perceived as not hiding between women
and children but leading women and children out. I
think these are all very positive things.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: See, the difficulty is, of
course, is when I like told you this morning when I
talked to them they all have their own wills and --
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- decisions and it's not
easy. He might be able -- he is one person that can
say well, you know, he'll say something pretty strong
or he can suggest something but it's - still even it
their decision unless, unless he says you've got to
leave, you know, you're not wanted here, you need to g
out there. He can do that and of course they would
have to do because it was him and some of those older
people that have been here from the beginning so they
would do that.
JOHN: Well, is there anybody like that now
then? .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what I'm, I'm
still waiting for him to say more about because, you
know, that's where it was at when I told you like last
Friday through Sunday, Monday, and he's made a lost of6
S
O
7
statements right around that time and I'm waiting,
waiting for him to say anything more about it.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If he does, you know, I
would be the first to let you know immediately about
that. So, even myself I'm waiting to see what does he
have to say about it. I need to, I need to sit down
with him today more than ever and start talking and
seeing what, what he's got there and what he's -- what,
what suggestion about the people.
JOHN: Steve, you can understand that these
guys where and these guys on the East Coast even though
it may not be true perceive that perhaps David is
stalling. I mean, I'm sure that thought has gone
through your mind at some time or other.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, well, remember
this, remember this. If they think he is, if they
honestly think he is, you tell them this, seriously, it
doesn't matter --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - it doesn't matter who
they are --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - that if they feel they
need to now come in and do what they got to do, well,
tell them to do what they've got to do.
8
JOHN: No, no, no, no, we --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no, no -- I'm not --
JOHN: I can pass that on.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But you know, you know, I'm
not -- it's not a -- you know, you know --
JOHN: I know you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you're talking to me,
it's not a threat or anything.
JOHN: I know that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's nothing against those
men. I
JOHN: I know that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: David has always said that,
you know, the Bible is a real book, they're going to
fulfill it whether they like it or not. The only way
you can be saved from the judgments which come upon
this world which they don't believe in and I know you
don't either, you're not -- you're ignorant of those
things, but if a person in honesty does not want to
hear about an impending catastrophe -- or say you and I
were in a chalet in the Swiss Alps and somebody runs
out and says hey, get out of that thing because there's
an avalanche coming, you're going to be buried alive,
but you and I sit there smiling at each other, we don't
believe it. See, I'm the kind of a person that'll
listen to the information especially if it seems like
9
it comes from a logical - maybe a dependable source.
But I'll listen and investigate to a degree and then
make a judgment. But this is what he's asked. He's
put out a pretty strong challenge. If there is a
theologian out there in the world that can show in the
Bible where the seals are, well, come forth, come
forth.
JOHN: Like, like we said yesterday, those
are the things, you know, that belong to the realm of
God.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, but see, you don't
understand the realm of God. In Psalms 50 says, "The
world is mine," the indiscernible! is mine, everything
is mine, mine, mine.
JOHN: Speaking about the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So it's a political thing
also. God is going to bring down governments. And if
you look at all the prophesies, like let me give you a
quick example. I know you don't want to get into this
but just real quick. The Book of Ezekiel, it was
written around 570 BC and he talks about the Assyrian
and Israel the 12 tribes, the Israel and Judah, tenant
two which is twelve. There was no Israel in that day,
there was no Assyrian. Assyria has been destroyed in
620 BC. So what was this man Ezekiel talking about?
He's talking about the spirit of Assyria that has
92
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>10
reached all the way down through the generations to the
days we're in. Even by the posterity of those people
you find the same spirit of the world, you find the
same pride and arrogancy. So, he calls a nation in the
final days that was just like ancient Assyria which was
preached to by Jonah and they repented. But then they
became the most bloodthirsty nation. They turned
against the very principles. This is true in history.
And they actually impaled people, they, they, they
skinned people alive, they did these kinds of things.
It's hard to believe. But in the last days - and
their symbol was an eagle by the way -- and in the last
days there is a nation that's been so highly blessed,
high technology, all, all high technology, all this
comes by inspiration, and God says he's the one that
giveth. He says, "In the final days men shall run to
and fro, knowledge will be increased." Well, is it not
being increased faster today than ever before? Well,
the thing is there is a nation in the last days that's
going to turn against and repudiate the very principles
it was founded on, the separation of church and state.
There is, there is a power working behind the scenes
right now for the control of the minds and the souls of
men. This has been the passion of the spirit of this
world and men that get caught up in it. So, ultimately
God -- 6,000 years he's given man probation to find
92
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92ll
out, to try to do it their way, it hasn't worked.
There's no peace. In fact, in the final days when man
cries for peace, sudden destruction comes. That's the
statement. So, these are the things we look at. It's
real to us, I believe it, the world has gone on for
6,000 years. I don't believe in evolution, John. I
believe that God is a powerful mind, a very orderly
mind that created these things.
didn't come from a mud puddle.
JOHN: Of course not.I'm a complex being, I
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Anyway, I don't have that
kind of faith as some do that buy evolution and all the
other theories.
JOHN: I, I don't buy evolution either.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But anyway,
saying is this. That this man, let him
whatever - when he opens something up,
judge it because it deals in the
with your life and my life. God
days -- I could give you so many
comes that's a sinner. He can't
The only thing he can do is open
all he can do. In fact, it saysso, what I'm
- I mean
E listen to it,
political, it deals
says in the last
chapters - somebody
work any miracles.
up the Bible, that's
in Isaiah 41 if a
minister or a paster or someone can't show you the
future beforehand they're, they're nothing, they're an
abomination and anyone, anyone that chooses them is
I
I
I
I
I
I
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12
nothing. So see, when a person goes to church week
after week, you sit there and you - they say love
Jesus, they give you a statement or two and sermonize
on one text out of the Bible, you go home, you live
your life, you do your thing, that's not the way it was
in the early Christian Church.
JOHN: Of course not.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, in the last days God's
got - like in every, every generation God has a
statement. "Be established in the present truth," it
says in Second Peter 112. Well, what's the truth for
1993? What's the truth that God would have you and I
to know to be walking in or are we going to live our
life and just acknowledge there's a God? That's not
good enough and never has been. So, this is what I'm
trying to get to. He's opened up things so clear and
plain that to go contrary to what's been seen, to go
contrary to what's been opened up, is paramount to
one's own destruction and this is what people are
concerned about.
JOHN: I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But even though the powers
of the world to, to some degree have come in upon us,
contrary to our Constitution the way it was set up -- I
mean, and all of a sudden now you're involved in this,
I'm involved in it on two different - in two different
I
1
92
92
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r
kways. But the thing is we're
if you need to -- this is the
the agency, the government to
they got to do, then let them
JOHN: I'm --13
putting God first. And
point - if you need to,
come in here and do what
do it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, but there's been
enough warnings by David about the, the power he
answers to, John, that he's got a boss, he's got a
boss, you've got bosses, they're getting antsy, they
want to get this done and finished, so does he. But he
has learned to wait on his God and see, that's what
He's going, going to do. The people have a choice here
so they're still waiting, they're still waiting. And I
can keep on talking to people but it may not be good
enough.
JOHN: Okay. Are we
STEVE SCHNEIDER: SO, if I, if I can't
generate something today -- or
JOHN: Okay.I'll listen to you now
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm giving the time over
to you --
JOHN: okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - you can suggest anything
and I'll try to do.
JOHN: Hey, I listened, I listened to you
Q I
14
carefully --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Good.
JOHN: -- and I always, I always will. I
always will. Just, just a note. You mentioned cattle
before and I had a note to tell you, that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What?
JOHN: Cattle.
srrzvz scmmxoan: Okay. '
JOHN: You mentioned cattle before, okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: Along those lines, we were passed some
information and I wanted to pass it on to you. That
there's a Hr. Drew, I don't know if you know him. He's
kind of one of your distant neighbors. But in any case
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know him.
JOHN: Okay. He has some cows in a pasture
out there on the north side. He's going to drive down
in a tan Chevrolet pickup, a Chevy pickup truck with a
trailer behind it. And behind him there will be a
white Dynasty Dodge.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: Okay. All they're going to do is move
the cows.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's fine.
JOHN: Okay, but I just, I just want you to
r> I l,
know.15
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Tell him that we, we send
our regards.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No problem.
JOHN: It's a deal. Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In fact, we've always
invited our neighbors. They can go fishing here,
can come visit us --
JOHN: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- they can come over
- you know, I mean it's always been that way.
JOHN: Okay. Now, last -- yesterday we
talking about maybe generating something. How do
stand on you and I generating? What are we going
generate you and I together?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well you tell me. I,
told -- I went through the whole list about three
four times yesterday in regards to the --they
for
were
we
to
I
or
JOHN: Did you, did you want to meet Byron?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- to the second, to the
second break -- no, I don't.
JOHN: You don't want to meet Byron today?
srzvz scausxnzn: Not until I really have
something substantive here. He never -- no information
-- I mean, there's nothing -- I don't have anything new
92
9216
to say on behalf of these people or anything. John,
that's really the truth, that's why I was trying to
tell him. I don't know what he is up to that we need
to meet face-to-face until I first have something to go
over, look at and really show it to the people, try to
gain confidence, show them what the problem yet
could - can be from where we left off that Friday.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I, I've been saying
over and over again the tools that I used then were
taken from me and --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - I'm -- David doesn't
peven want to hear about "Newsweek" and "Time."
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Of course, you guys are
blowing your credibility again, your word it was not
fulfilled, now it's -- he don't, he don't even care to
ever hear about it again because the newspaper he looks
at, the "Newsweek" he looks at is called the Bible, the
Book of Nahum. '
JOHN: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, that's, that's - and
when it comes to the other things, he never saw the
warrant. That hasn't been dropped off to see a written
warrant. He wasn't seen +- Wayne and I haven't heard
over the phone
kind of things,
chips well they
even have to do
need to do. If
something for these people
this works, fine, there isO
17
or why -- that Arnold tape, all those
if they think those are bargaining
don't -- why don't they -- they don't
it. Tell, tell the bosses do what they
they don't want to drop off92or give
to look at to, to see how
no problem there. These
people are going to wait, believe in their God and in
what the Book says and they're going to have to do what
they got to do.
JOHN:Here's the thing, Steve. You and I
know that neither you, Steve, nor I, John, want to
close the door and let's you and I keep the door open
so --
STEVE
doing, John.
JOHN:
STEVE
strong it is in
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
on -- you know,SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what we're
That's important. I mean --
SCHNEIDER: But I'm telling you how
the sense --
I, I can --
SCHNEIDER: -- of not what the --
'They had a --
SCHNEIDER: They have not come through
I really feel bad because, you know,
you were part of that with the "Newsweek" and "Time"
business last Friday.
I.
|
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9292 >
I
18
y JOHN: Umhum. I, I know.
A STEVE SCHNEIDER: And all of a sudden it's
like - along with the electricity, along with all of
that business and I feel bad. I think it's unfortunate
that you had some leeway to communicate with me and
then it's almost like behind your back they did what
they wanted to and that doesn't go very far here
because then these people think, well, what good, Steve
his you dealing with John, no matter how nice the guy
is, what good is, why don't you deal with these bosses
who are either fickle or whatever they are, deal with
them, get, the word directly from them.
JOHN: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If they can't negotiate, if
they can't communicate, well, man, maybe they should
get out of that job and become a ditch digger or
something. i
JOHN: Well, we're talking thousands of miles
here, too, you know, it's not an easy situation for any
of us. It's not, it's not easy for you and I, and I
don't mean to imply that it is easy for you when you go
these people.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is Sessions involved in
this? Someone heard we heard rumors, I don't know
-- someone told me to the press that he was getting
involved --
19
JOHN: I, I can't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- or that he's coming down
Dr >
JOHN: Yeah, he -- my, my understanding --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Does he have too many of
this own problems right now or --
JOHN: My understanding is that, my
understanding is that he's being briefed daily on this
and more than daily if there's any significant
developments. So, that's my understanding of what I
was told. If there's any significant developments my l
understanding is that they tell him right away.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Uhhuh.
JOHN: And -- but he's being briefed on a
daily basis every day or every evening, or at least
once a day and if anything does occur then they go in
and tell him exactly what occurred and when it
occurred.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: So --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I guess there going to be a
press conference right now.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm going to take some
notes and --
JOHN: Okay.
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- then I'll call you right
I'm going to react to this
thing and see if, if won't help us. Maybe it'll help
4 us get going but, ouik y now, the one like yesterday was
y detrimental. I mean, when you that ATE
6 spokesperson in sa in thy g e kinds of things he does it
just -- I mean, it is bad, really it is. See, all
pthese people even today, they keep on reminding me what
they heard. And I'm, I'm saying look, I heard myself,
need to hear it anymore. So, I'm telling youI don't
they're concerned about that agency who did this to
them in the first place. And when the man mak
kind of statements which ares those
e not true, it's a one-sided
thing, it doesn't -- they don't trust the system then.
|He's allowed to do that kind of thing. We're told to
come out and go to jail. Why doesn't he go to jail
right now?
JOHN: No, no, no, no. Hey, number one, not
everybody is going to jail. You know that as --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well no, Oliver is sitting
in there right now and the guy didn't do anything.
JOHN: Kathy is going to be out on bond. You
know what I mean?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but the -- I mean,
look how long -- it's still days ago -- and then she's
been shack led and everything. Shackle the spokesperson
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2 JOHN: Well --
3 0STEVE SCHNEIDER. Shackle - what's the guy
-- Higgins, Steven Higgins, the head of that of that
department.
6 0p JOHN. They've got, they've got their rules
to follow, you know, and if, if they change the rules
for her that would look bad.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It looks bad to these
people in here that no ones been arrested from the ATE
for coming to the door and not even knocking, nothing.
JOHN: Hey, if -- let me tell you, if that
were an FBI agent who committed murder or an --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I believe you.
JOHN: - ATE agent who committed murder --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, let's, let's see if
this government can't gain some control over this
agency that has total free reins to do what they want
to do and don't have an answer for anything.
JOHN: Okay. You know, Steve, the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: well, let's, let's look --
JOHN: Okay. Let's look at the conference
and we'll talk to you. .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Thanks. I'll call
you right back.
JOHN: Okay. Okay. Bye.
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2 p STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello? Hello, John?
JOHN: Hi, Steve, one second. Go ahead,
Steve.
5 I STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
6JOHN: Okay.
SCHNEIDER: Did you see the press
8 conference?
JOHN: Yes, I did. I did.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Do you know what's
going on out here today or not?
92 JOHN: Oh, yeah. You got the information on
on the speakers, right? You got the in
the trash removal, the back, the back side?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What their running into our
dump truck and damaging the whole side of it and
completely ruining it? What about that?
I JOHN: That I hadn't head, but the dump truck
is, is in the rear by the, by the stack of garba e.
9
That's my understanding.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You guys definitely have
succeeded to make the - you people -- on o
got Ricks over there saying now we're breakingne side you
negotiations and we're not coming through, on the other
and not telling all the truth. You never told those
people how you ran over our personal private property, 'I
formation on, on
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at are -- that have nothing to
do with anything as it'll be sh1 people's property here th
2 own. But it doesn't
3 matter to the -- to that agency. Running into this
4I.dump truck, people are watching and they did, did it
5 more than once ripping the whole side off.
6JOHN: Well, they --
a STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wh t is -- David is --
JOHN: They also --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- he says, "Don't move our
vehicles. Don't run into them. Don't touch them."
Okay. That's what he passed off. I just had t0 give
it as he said it. Okay?
I JOHN: Don't move our vehicles, okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He said.
JOHN: Is David around?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm at a phone that's so
far from him. I want to -- let's, let's talk about
rence you and I, okay?
JOHN: Sure.that press confe
V STEVE SCHNEIDER:okay. Let me see. I just
jotted a f ew things down here.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Let's see. He made a lot
of statements. To begin --
JOHN: Did you talk to him -- did you talk to
David after the press conference?
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IJOHN: Okay.
from a mud puddle? How did he
believe in the Bible? Does he
Gita, the Koran? What does he
believe in himself as God? Is
The thing is, David's into the24
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I haven't even seen him.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I haven't even seen him.
There were so many lies. I really don't like half the
things Ricks says. That's his judgment and it's not
true. It's not true. He made a statement about how
David retreats in these conversations in to Scripture.
That's all the man is is Scripture. He retreats
nothing. Ricks is about ready to lose his, his soul.
You and I - you don't know the Bible. We source --
what does Ricks believe in in this world? How did he
get into this world? How did he get here? Did he come
get here? Does he
believe in the Bhagavad-
believe in? Does he
he his own god or what?
Scripture. The book
says somebody comes in the last days, he's a stumbling
block because people have always judged by what they
see. This is why Isaiah was told in Chapter 20 of
Isaiah to run around naked for three years. No wonder
Israel of old rejected Isaiah the Prophet. Everybody
accepts dead prophets because they don't affect your
life currently. Everybody can look into the past and
worship at the sepulchers of the dead prophets and
that's all mankind does. But when someone is here that
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1 ihas inspiration and '
2you can t - and you don't have the
yability to challenge him, sit back and listen,
evaluate, then give a verdict. So, number one this guy
is talking about he always retreats into Scripture,
that's all -- in fact, since I've met him that's all he
talks is Bible. Talking to people going up and down
elevators, at gas stations. Everywhere he goes the
guy's into the Bible. He's got a message. He's got
something to say. Okay, John?
JOHN: I'm listening carefully.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay, and then he, then he
- they were -- he was talking about these perimeter
ylights are to protect the agents. I found that
interesting. I've heard many statements from your side
as to why those lights were here, they were for our
protection. I mean, you know, between you~and I we
know what they're for. The next statement he says,
Ricks talks about all these people being pawns and
unless he allows them to leave, bull roar, bull roar.
You can talk to anybody here that you want. He made
the statement Wayne, I - David are present, that is
not the truth. There is a phone in a place that I
usually speak from. I'm there on my own. When people
come to the phone because I've got to sit onthe phone
all day, John, I usually walk off because I get tired
of having a phone to my ear. My whole life has now
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1 l consisted of being on thisstupid plastic object here.
2a I don't enjoy that.
_ 3
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at another
to Byron and all
sa
not only because he didappeared where I was which shocJOHN: Hey, I --
, STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wait, wait, wait now. Just
keep on listening to me.
JOHN: Okay. Sure, I'm listening. I'm
listening.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm not through yet.
JOHN: Go ahead.
y STEVE SCHNEIDER: But that is a total,
complete lie. David is in a room by himself almost 99
the time. People like to come an
im. He gets annoyed by it at times. This is thepercent ofd bother
h
truth. He, he n eeds time himself. But has never ever
been near any conversation, the phone is not even near
his place. I've got that long cord and once in a great
while I take the phone to him. Now, in relation to
that, yesterday was the first time in a long time I was
phone that was so far from him and he
ked me. I was talking
of a sudden he appears. So Byron
ys, yeah, he would like to talk to him. David left
have to use the facilities notI
maybe he wa
No, not maybe. I saw so h, s moving around a lot, but he was bleeding.
, e shouldn't have been out of
- that was thefirst time he has gotten out of his bed
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told me as he
2 handed me the hon Ip e, , I cupped the phone, he says,
"I'm bleeding." I saw that he was. So, Ricks and his,
and his mouth and all that about - that is not the
truth. He can conjecture and guess all day long, it's
not the truth. He went on to say promises and they're
not followed up upon on, on our part. What about your
part? What about these "Newsweek" and about Oliver
calling that night or at least the next day? What
labout the perimeter? Right from day one when the
promise was that they would not be on our property.
Let's go -- you want to go through the list of five
days after the request for milk it finally, finally
comes?
JOHN: No, that's all, that's all in the
past.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Then the electricity is cut off. Well, yeah, you don't
want to hear it.
JOHN: No, no, no.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But no, no, no - but the
thing is, the thing is, John, is this, Ricks says what
he wants to say. He's saying we're breaking promises
and a lot of times when I suggest what might happen,
that's taken as it's going to be a fact. I've never --
you listened to the tapes. That is not the way it's
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see, somebod
got here? who is telliwants no on
not want to
here, we wer
All of a sud
question. Sbeen. If I
30 because
that's why
Saturday.
that whole
Koresh woul
be seen one
you're right
time, like IBut what
thing. Okay. Another th
d like to see a lar
die and to ful
e to die.
die. He does
e getting ready to 1
den w
y handed me a note here. S
herrie's sitting here by me and28
-- that's why I hesitate to say that 20 or
that's what is possibly going to happen but
I didn't say it right away Friday and
happened Friday night sguelched
ing. He says
ge number of his people
fill Scripture. Lie, total lie. That'll
day. He wants you to live, me to live. He
He does not want to die. But
, he has no fear in it. But no, he does
not want to. But at the same
told you earlier, he - we were together
ook at the Scriptures.
e hear some information ~ well, let's
herrie, what you
ng Ricks what to say? Good
Wayne is
here right now. I'll let o ky u now who's right here.
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6
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1 So then it's - then they went on to say this, if he
2 cares and so forth he would be letting the people out
3, and, and all this. Yeah, he does care, but his thing
4is if it is to do with the scripture, read any portion
or any of those men, if you don't put God
first over this world, the things of the world, you're
d eternal life. Those are --
JOHN: Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: wait now. Those are
roughout all the Bible so these people put
that into practice, they believe it. Then he went on
to say D.K. is - let's see, what does he have here?
An ayw y, it sounded like about yesterday's phone
conversation. I was right there. I honestly did not
hear what Byron was saying on the other end. I heard
David speaking about spiritual things and they were
very pointed, very clear. To me, if he would ha
listened to David but he kept on cutting him off andve just
then David was quiet for long periods of time I neve. r
once heard David acknowledge or say yea to whatever
Byron was saying. In fact, when he handed me the phone
I got on the phone and Byron was saying that they had
these buses out here, come on out. I about fell over,
John, because that was not what David was talking
about. So, what Ricks said to that press conference,
what on earth is he talking about? David never
1 iacknow
2
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30
ledged about sending anybody. In fact, when he
walked away from the phone later on I went up to him
and says, "What was that all about?" He said, "The man
had no ears to hear, there was no sense in talking to
him. He had one thing on his mind. He didn't hear
what I had to say. Not interested in the Bible. No
matter - I could say anything and it doesn't matter."
See, so ultimately God's got to bring a judgment upon
the world so the whol
dae world can judge the truth. One
y, anybody that rejects truth, John, that truth if it
is a truth, if it's biblically true, that truth one day
will destroy. Just like in the days of Noah. People
,heard, they didn't believe, they laughed, they scoffed,
pso they fulfilled that very word. That's why
throughout the whole Bible it says, "When thy hand
lifted up they will not see it," as it says in Isaiah
26, "But they shall see." See, they're going to see
when it's too late because people don't really believe
in God, they don't fear God. They just have a theory
about it, they've got feelings. You and I've got
feelings but that's not true religion. True religion
is facts. It's what God says. He says come let us
reason together. You and I have got brains. That's
why God wants to sit down, he wants to show us
something and judge that, don't judge people because
we're all - we 'can t judge one another. I don't know
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|8 JOHN:
9 STEVE SCHNEI
10
11
12 ytalk about it.g . But I know one thing, God's
2' got a timetable and it's going to be fulfilled whether
3 I like it or not or whether you like it or not.
more comments. We're going to be
5 making a statement - David is going to make the4 Anyway, here's some
6 statement about that child, or anyway, something's
about that child.
Who's going to make that statement?
DER: Probably David.
, JOHN: Well, is there a deceased child?
é STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I'm going to let him
You're going to be very interested.
I'm hoping he's going to have something to say about it
maybe even today.
JOHN: All right. Put, put him -- can we get
him on --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:' Well, he's so far from me
right now.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's -- no, no, I couldn't
put -- you why I could ' n t put him on right now, John?
JOHN: You're at a different location.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no, not only that. I
know -- I'm just saying this, I don't know, I haven't
asked him, but I can already tell. Somebody came down
to me when I'm on the phone from the other end --
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2 STEVE SCHNEIDER: - and they said that he
3~ was very -- oh , was he mad about that dump truck. So,
4 I know he's not going to talk to you people now. I
5 mean, when you sa o y ne thing in a press conference
about breaking -- you people keep on talking,
7,provoking. I mean, right before our eyes running over
private - that h6
8as happened for weeks already.
9 JOHN: Steve, there's only, there's only
10 one --
11 I STEVE SCHNEIDER: That'sgone on for --
12 JOHN: -- there's, there's only --
13, STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- weeks that kind of .
14 attitude
15 JOHN: Steve.
16 STEVE SCHNEIDER: -~ by Ricks's group.
17 JOHN: Steve. Ther 'e s only one side being
e press now. There's onl
out and this --18 given to th y one side given
19
20 STEVE SCHNEIDER: And that's, that's to the
21detriment of what you guys --
22 JOHN: And then --
23 STEVE SCHNEIDER: --
24 happen though, John.
25say to us you want to
JOHN: No, no, no. I know, but it --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I'm going to tell you,
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l inothing is going to happen between you, I or this grouP
2 or anything. Y ' '
3
4 go ask these peo leou -- I m going to tellyou today, he's
a liar - Ricks has told lies.If you guys want me to
p go line up and I'm going to tge
5 heck out f '
6
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8
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13
1o this - I'll have nothing to do with this
room - Wayne can go take a fiesta or siesta some other
place, I will. These people can come and close the
door, talk on their own. It has always been that way.
when this is all said and done you will learn fora
fact I was not exaggerating. I never have to be near
these people. I don't have to coax them or, or tell
them what to they can say what they want as you
should have known that from last night's conversation
with Thibodeau, with Rachel, with Scott, I was not here
nearby. I was in another room. In fact, someone told
me about a radio station, I went to listen to it 'with
them. I was on near -- in fact, some - Thibodeau's
mother was on this station it was with Dan Rather. So
John Cox should have heI yelled down --
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6
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O don't
11
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you took care of that --station throu
information.34
1 were the ones that th t , a John Cox requested to speak
JOHN: She was on, on "48 Hours last night.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly. That's true, but
JOHN: Did, did you see her?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- heard it on ~~ huh?
JOHN: Did you see her?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No we --
have any electricity.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We only have a few radios
here with batteries and if we can get ahold of a TV
gh the radio we can pick up on some
JOHN: Yeah, I saw, I saw her on TV.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You - but you remember how
your group did last Friday?
JOHN: Not, not me, not me.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, you know, you'repart
of that grou .
but notp You're part of thes
JOHN: I'm ae people that --
negotiator.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know you are
JOHN: I accept part of being a negotiator,
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But you, you're not given,
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2 JOHN: I'm not a decision-maker on turning
3, out lights earlier.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you're not given much
substance to work with, you know
6, things, it doesn't seen
7 y, you try to say some
to work out. 1
JOHN: Steve, this can be worked out, it can.
8 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Not the way -- not bY
9 observation. What these -- John, I'm -- I'l1 tell you
O the truth I ', m getting so frustrated.
JOHN: That's normal.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: when I, when I hear Ricks
and so forth and his statements, where, where is he in
relation to all these negotiations? If he's listening
to these tapes and if he's nearby you, what, what is
giving the information that he is for? I am -- this --
how can I -- well, shoot, I don't know. I'll tell you
what , I feel like throwing my hands in the a1r. Why
don't I just go --
JOHN: Isn't it, isn't it --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- why don't I Just go take
a nap and get a little rest now?
JOHN: Isn't it frustrating? Isn't it
frustrating?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's frustrating --
JOHN: Sure, it is.
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1 STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- when I seewhat the
2man's doing and what is happening on the outside and,
lieve in the Bible myself and I know it's
going to happen to people lik3 and when I be
e yourself. You take that
d Isaiah 24.
JOHN: All right. Are you -- do --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You read that chapter and
8 you tell me about it.
9JOHN: Do you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm not - listen, I don't
need to interpret it for you. You read it, it's in
English and you, you think about it because God says
,he's angry, he's going to take this world, turn it
upside down, he's going to shake the inhabitants off
this. This is going to rock 'n roll, reel to and fro
like a drunkard, people are going to be running and
screaming, they're
thatgoing to fall into a pit and those
even make it out of the pit are going to be taken
in a snare.
JOHN: Steve, don't you think that, that,
that Ricks is, is suffering a little frustration
himself?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Listen --
JOHN: No, don't, don't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- he doesn't know
frustration until he has come here, been attacked, been
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shot at. I don't know why I'm not dead. I'm on the
phone trying to ask the question as Wayne Martin is
what's going on that Sunday morning. We're screaming
out, what's going on, stop it --
JOHN: All right. Let me ask -- Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- they're trying to kill
us. You're talking frustration and now --
JOHN: Is that the truth?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I'm to come out and face
charges.
JQHN: Is that -- Steve, is --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: For what? 92
JOHN: Steve, is that the truth?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I've never done anything
illegal.
JOHN: All right. Is that the truth you were
on the phone?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is that the truth that I
was on the phone?
JOHN: Yeah and weren't shooting?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Positively. The whole day,
the whole time.
JOHN: Then why don't you come out and get it
resolved for you, Steve Schneider?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, what about these
other four -- I can handle myself, but what about these
i38
people here that, that because of the way you people
are, are going about this, your procedure, they're
losing more and more faith and trust in what you people
are doing. You didn't drop off the information that we
both agreed on the day before yesterday.
JOHN: I'll make, I'll make you a personal
deal, okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No deals. You can offer
anything --
JOHN: I'll, I'll make you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Give some substance for
these people to look at.
JOHN: Let me make you a proffer.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: Okay. You come out, come talk to me,
call back and go through the system and call back
again.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Okay. Now, let me
understand this. You want me to walk out and meet you
maybe out, on the outside?
JOHN: No, no, no - how -- it doesn't matter
whether you want to meet me, that's fine. But I'm
saying you come out --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I wouldn't mind meeting
with you today, walk out halfway, you meet me halfway,
the Bradleys stay way back, we're out in the open in
39
the middle but they're back at the gate, I would shake
your hand, I'll talk to you and if you even had a gun
on you or whatever you can pull it out.
JOHN: No, no, that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no, but I mean though
I'm not bothered by that, but I don't like the
situation Wayne and I were in the last time. This time
I'd walk out in the open, meet you in the open. You
can have all the Bradleys and the Abrams and the
Apaches and whatever else you want to use out here.
JOHN: I don't have any --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I -- really, I, I, I
would talk to you over anybody else that I've ever
talked to yet from the beginning.
JOHN: Steve, we're 100 percent on the same
wavelength.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Why don't we do that today?
Tell me when you want to meet with me today --
JOHN: I, I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - bring all the
information, let them, let them verse you and update
you what the information Byron has. I will take it
from you.
JOHN: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll take it from you.
JOHN: I have no problem with that at all,
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Steve.
s'r£v1-: scnnnznzm If you want to -- and if
you want to take a camera and -- or have a guy a little
distance away filming this and they want to show it
tomorrow at that meeting in the morning at the press
conference, I don't mind.
JOHN: No, no, same, same, same meeting as
before. Same as, as Byron's meeting, same --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and if, and if they
want a camera man, I would, I wouldn't mind that even.
Let them show a little bit what's going on and, and
that are progressing because I am willing to do
anything possible I tell you --
JOHN: So am I.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- but I can't force
consciences here and I'm trying to give you the tenor
of the spirit of things of what's going on, their
reaction to what they're hearing from the press and
from you people, the press conference and, and what
they're seeing outside, what - every day what's going
on, the lights coming closer, they're running over
private property, the total disregard, help me, please,
help me.
JOHN: I will. I'll be happy to meet with
you. It would be my pleasure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. when did you want to
meet?
11:30?
schedule
mean very41
JOHN: What time. What time is it now,
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's 25 after 11:00.
JOHN: I was just trying to find our what the
is.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How about 3 o'clock this
afternoon?
JOHN: How about a little bit earlier?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How about me calling you
back then?
JOHN: How about 2 o'clock?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, let me call you back
on that, okay?
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll be calling you back I
shortly.
JOHN: Very shortly.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: Okay, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Call you right back.
JOHN: Bye-bye.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Bye.
u * w a a
JOHN: Hey, Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, John?
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JOHN: Yeah, hold it one second.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: How we doing?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: with all your
sophistication there I'm amazed you can't just pick up
the phone and --
JOHN: Hey, this -- we're rushing headlong
into the 20th Century here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: we're rushing headlong,
huh? Okay.
JOHN: Into the 20th Century.
A STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'm looking over
everything that I might be able to accomplish here with
you today and I'm willing to meet you out halfway at 10
after 3:00. And the reason being is because like it's
our worship hour from 2:00 to 3:00 --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and before that I've got
a lot that I need to get done here yet today.
JOHN: Okay. Well, what do you have in mind?
Just, just let me run this so we get a --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: -- concept.
s'rr:v£: SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: What are we going to accomplish if we
do this?
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: We are we going to
accomplish?
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We're going to do whatever
Byron wanted to do yesterday. We're going to talk
about the issues, you -- if you have anything you can
give to me -- hand over to me to give to the people
that they can look at whether it be a copy of the
warrant, the warrant, whether it's a tape from Arnold,
whether it's information on the some of the
questions Wayne and I asked, if it's any other
information on legal matters or procedure or something
they can look at, if they got any, anything like that,
anything at all. Or if you have any explanations on
this issues or matters I can bring a little tape, tape
recorder along and I can tape the conversation if you'd
like. I'm willing to do about anything.
JOHN: I, I understand that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, yesterday he wanted
a meeting and I didn't want to do it yesterday. I
don't have anything to work with, I still don't, but
I'm willing to meet with yourself. I, I like your,
your personality, you're not a pushy person, I can
handle that. And when someone comes on - Byron means
well, he wants to get this done, I don't take that from
him, but because of my understanding from within what's
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happening and what needs to take place, that does not
help. I can't -- you know, there's no way I can
express it enough to Byron. That does not help. It
just causes these people to back off all the more. And
I'm talking about them as individuals, contrary to what
was stated by Ricks today. He can say that all he
wants and it just makes matters worse.
JOHN: I, I know what you're saying. I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He, he said like today on
the press conference, communication is strictly by
David -- not -- he is nowhere -- honestly, John, listen
to this. He is nowhere near the phone. It is me. I
am. Sometimes Rachel answers, sometimes Dave Jones.
They'll let me know and I'll say well, let me call them
back because I'm so far away from the phone or I'm
doing something. That's --
JOHN: I've, I've spoken to Dave.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's the truth. See,
that's the truth. When - David's not even near the
phone. A lot of time
ts he gets annoyed when I come to
ell him some of the things I understand what might be
happening. You know, he gets tired of hearing - when
he's - when you're sick, you've been shot, you're
still not feeling well, you know, you don't want to be
bothered every five, ten, fifteen - hour, every hour
and so he actually doesn't want to be bothered. on the
I
I was yesterday, started bleeding
bleeding a lot.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
really was.
JOHN: Yeah.
couldn't handle it, he was looking
face, he had to use the facilities
was bleeding. And then Ricks said
copped out or something. Not so.
acknowl
they don't.
JOHN: Umhum. Okay.45
contrary, the man is not well. He walked down to where
as - you know, he
tried it like a week before that and he started
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So he thought maybe a week
later after being in bed for a whole week, I mean of
course you get tired of it. So he got up yesterday. I
was shocked and looked behind me when I was on the
phone with Byron and there he stands in the doorway. I
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then he the whole
time that Byron was talking he was leaning over, he
wasn't even seated or anything and, and finally he just
kind of white in the
and he definitely
what he did, like he
He never
edged anybody leaving. They can leave if they
want. That is -- people are running around here all
day long and all day long I'll say to them, "Does
anybody want to go, anybody want to leave?" But - and
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Not unless they have some
46
substance, something to look at --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- like what was happening
Friday.
x JOHN: What else, what else can we
accomplish? We're going to, we're going to drop off
the, the search warrant thing and that, and what else
can we accomplish? '
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, well, let's see what
were some of the -- like some of the other things I
mentioned. The things -- what about the things that
were promised? Ricks, that's nothing thing. He acted
like -- let me take a look at the comment here.
JOHN: No, no, let's, let's not -- this is
just between you and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: well, no, no, I was going
to mention the "Newsweek" and "Time" as something --
JOHN: Okay. The "Newsweek" and "Time."
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- as something as of good
faith --
JOHN: Okay. That's a --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- because that was
something from Friday.
JOHN: That's a good-faith effort. I
appreciate that. Now, how about a reverse good faith?
How about something good faith coming this way?
92
there to even meet with you. How's that?
with you out front and they --
JOHN: That's --
and the reason I'm hanging on the end of
this situation resolved. So, you know, is
way that, you know, are there any children
their mothers who are maybe, you know, not
or something and want, want to come out or
like that?
you?
JOHN: Yeah.JOHN: Well, I'll, I'll, I'll --
I want to help the people inside. That's --
that's what's the most urgent thing for me47
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's -- I'm not --
I can't -- nothing at all. I'm not going to tell you
anything, I'm not going to -- I'll, I'll -- here's what
-- the first thing it's going to be, me walking out
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How about spending some tim
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- they can take pictures,
they can do what they want. But right now it's --
these people, they're not happy about anything.
JOHN: I appreciate that, and, and Steve, in
all candor, the reason you're on the end of that phone
this phone is
to help everybody. You want to help the people inside,
you know,
is to get
there any
in there,
feeling well
something
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Should I be truthful with
Q
48
1 STEVE SCHNEIDER: NO.
2 JOHN: No? Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Truth of the matter is
l those mothers that are here and they've been watched to
see what's happened to the children on the outside,
they're not happy in most cases, they don't know what's
happened, if they've been taken off into foster homes,
if they've been -- it's been a battle some to even get
out that area and be taken by the relatives that they
wanted them to go to.
JOHN: No, no, no, no. Well -- no, no, you,
you know what happened with, with the, with the
children pretty much.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no, we -- honestly, we
don't, we don't know. Where are they all at still now?
Have some gone off with relatives? Are the majority
there or --
JOHN: Yeah, yeah, hold on, hold on a second.
Let me --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You can bring that
information too.
- JOHN: No, I can give you that right now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Well, no -- well, if
you got something on paper, pictures, it's all the
better.
JOHN: Yeah. Let me see if I can find it for
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1 iyou. This, this place paper-wise has grown by leaps
2 and bounds, you know --
3
4! JOHN: It's things that started out like as a
5 personal phone book are now like five -- you know, fiveSTEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm sure.
6 inches thick. Okay. Do you remember Joanne Vega?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes, I do.
JOHN: Okay. Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We heard on "48 Hours" last
night that she was finally with her --
JOHN: Yeah, she's in the -- okay, yeah, but
she's in the custody of Ursula now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are they both back in
Hawaii or --
JOHN: Yeah.
92 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's what we heard.
JOHN: Yeah, that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What about anybody else?
There was a lot of children there.
JOHN: Okay. Angela, Angelica --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JOHN: Sonobe.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JOHN: And Crystal Sonobe went with Ken and
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okay.
tell m
or QaSonobe.
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVESO
SCHNEIDER: They're with them?
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: Oh, great. Now --
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: Now, that's going to --
Now, there, there are --
SCHNEIDER: Let me write it down.
Yeah, let's write it down.
SCHNEIDER: Well, why didn't you people
e this yesterday? I mean, Byron's so anxious to
JOHN:
till last night.get them out, give us somethi --ng give me something to
work with and tell them, okay?
I don't, I don't think this came in
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see. Sonobe, okay.
JOHN:
okay, it's --
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -~ are the
JOHN:Let me see if I can save time on --
SCHNEIDER: Are they back --
Wait a minute.
y back to Hawaii
Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN:They're back to Hawaii. They're the
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921grandparents.
'87 and '89.
Anybody else?
JOHN:
STEVE
Britain?
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
London.
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
JOHN:
So, he just --JOHN:
the information that I had. A d
the reason we didn't92 51
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's correct.
Okay, and the children were born in
I STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Okay. who else?
Okay. Let's see, I don't know. Okay
Yeah, Natalie N-O-B-R-EGA, Nobrega?
SCHNEIDER: Okay. She's back to
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
Okay, and with the dad.
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
Okay, and he lives somewhere in
SCHNEIDER: Right.
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: That's correct.
Yeah. So, yeah, those are, those are
n I just checked today,
have this with Byron yesterday was
it's dated today.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
So, we didn't get this till today.
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92l1
5 dump truck gettin52
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, now you're giving --
2 JOHN: - he d'd '
3l n t have that available.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: me92 something now. See,
4, I've had nothing. The onl th'y ing I have had is the
g crushed, more encroachment, more of
6 that kind of thing.
7. JOHN: Life, life's a --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Statements from Ricks from
-- that aren't true and in the press conference.
JOHN: well, life's a twoway street, you
know? And, and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I agree with you - so
why -- he says it's been a one-way. I've said that.
I've seen it's been to their advantage and obviously in
the press where I can't counter, I mean --JOHN:
well, is that, is that positive? I mean, it should be
gvery positive looking at those --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: For me it's not. To me
it's not positive at all.
JOHN: The children going with the parents,
the grandparents?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that is positive.
I'm talking about some of the other things that I'm
still trying to counter. That's not easy.
JOHN: I know. It'll just give you a little
bit of something to work on with the, with the parents.
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4 JOHN:
92 5
6 JOHN:
_ 753
1 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
All right. Do you --
92 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, for sure.
-- do you need those names again?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
Do you need those names again?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I, I know them all.
JOHN: Okay. Why don't you go talk to them
92and after you talk to them give me a buzz back?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, what good is that
going to do?
JOHN: Well, I was thinking maybe --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You mean like hoping that
they'll come out today or --
JOHN: Maybe they'll go talk to some other
parents.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that I'll do. I
Fmean, if you want to --
JOHN: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In fact, I'll eve
if you would like I'll say do you want to talk to Johnn request
or whatever.
JOHN: How about, how about --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I have no, I have no --
look it, here's how it really works. I don't stand by
and listen to their conversations or anything else. I
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1 really don't monitor them. I'm not - when Isay to
I 2 them look a b , ny ody here want to talk to these guys, you
3 want to go out, I mean that's how it is.
4 , JOHN: Um-hum. '
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, JOHN: Okay. What
ll STEVE SCHNEID
II 5 STEVE SCHNEIDER: That is how it is. And if
6 I take some time to just sit down in a nice
7 conversation and relax with themand talk maybe I can
8 gain some headway but not when these other things are
9 always taking place around me.
10. about Rita, Rita Riddle?
ER: I haven't talk d e to her in
12 probably days.
13 JOHN: Let meask you something.
14 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure.
15 JOHN: Why -- was she being expelled so to
E 16 speak or why did she want to come out or what?
I 17 ISTEVE SCHNEIDER: It
I
I 18 was both.was both in honest - it
l9 JOHN: Well, I kind of gathered that --
I 20STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
21JOHN: -- you know? Howabout Judy and, you
finger? 22 know, her
23 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Judy is -- she's a very ~-
24 she's strong in what she believes, you know, her
25 conviction. She's been around me for 22years.
JOHN: That's a 1
vl STEVE SCHNEIDER:
2 has seen me
6: what's the truth, what's
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It is a long time. And she
spend hours out of a day searching that
3 Bible long before I met David --
4 JOHN: Um-hum.
5STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- always wanting to know
this book about --
JOHN. Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- is it true and so forth
and --
JOHN: Well, is there anybody we can change
their mind? You can --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, let me think, let me
p think if there would be someone here.
JOHN: How about Mayanah?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: She --in fact, she -- I
might even be putting her on the phone.
JOHN: Mayanah?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: She's only two years old
but you ought to -- I
JOHN: She's pretty young. She's not like a
decision-maker.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You ought to hear her talk.
For a two year old you won't believe it
JOHN: How about letting --
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: You, you ask her anything
you want, you won't believe the answers she'll give
you.
JOHN: Well, would Judy, would Judy and you
be .up for me takmng care of her?
End Tape 14x!