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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #182
3/28/93
P.M- - PnM0
92 _ W! 2
tape 182!
DAVID: -- you're flexing your arm.
GEORGE: No. We're trying, we're trying to
convince you to --
DAVID: You're trying to --
GEORGE: -- to come out --
DAVID: -- convince me to come out so you can
finish your work. I know that. And like I said, I
have no problem with that.
GEORGE: Our work is, is just to get you out
and into the system.
DAVID: Umhum.
GEORGE: And, and then you're entitled to the
lawyer, and you can tell your story, and you can go on
preaching. And, and we'll go back to what we do.
DAVID: Are you going to bring back to life
those people that lost their lives? Is your system
going to pay and buy me a new boat and buy me a new car
and new motorcycle and come and --
GEORGE: I don't know what --
DAVID: -- replant the grass?
GEORGE: -- I don't know what the system is
going to do.
DAVID: Now let me, let me tell you what your
system does. Let me, let me tell you from experience.
In 1987 there was a man on this property named George
3
Roden. And he had originally kicked old people off
this property back when it was in the hands of the
Branch Davidians. And these people were good
Christians, and they complied with Mrs. Roden because
George was her son. She wanted time to work with him.
Because he, he had, he had like -- what was the disease
he had, Steve? Steve's voice in background not
discernible.! He was epileptic.
GEORGE: Umhum.
DAVID: And this epilepsy affected his way of
thinking sometimes. You know, you'd be standing there
talking to him, and he'd all of a sudden twitch and
spit in your face. Not that he meant it.
,GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: Just couldn't control it. He would
be sitting there and all of a sudden slam his hand down
I
on the table and he'd, the soup would go everywhere.
And your, your plate would fly off, you know. And he
couldn't help it. But he had this wild idea that he
was God's man of the hour and, you know, and he was
going to do things.
Well, he started digging up the cemetery.
What did I do about it? Me and my brother-inlaw, Dave
Jones, went down to the Sheriff's Department, the right
thing to do.
GEORGE: Umhum.
K V.- !" 4
DAVID: We went and spoke to Sheriff
Dickerson. And we told him what was happening. And he
says well, he could not do
had proof. I says what do
pictures or something? He
start. So I hired a young
out here with George stillanything about it until he
you need? You know,
says well, that would be a
man that was kind of friends
because he did work for
George and stuff. And he came, and he took pictures in
the church of this casket that had been resumed out of
the cemetery.
GEORGE: Umhum.
DAVID: Now George was going to resurrect
this person he thought. So we took these pictures down
to the Sheriff's Department, and the Sheriff looked at
them, and he began to commence to tell us that well,
there's no bones, you know, pictures of the bones.
It'§ not against the law to have a casket in the
church.
And I -- so that blew me away. And I says,
you know, Sheriff Dickerson, that casket's been dug up.
You can tell. It's rusty. You know, had the outer
case taken off. And he says boys, he says I can't do
nothing about it. I got to have more evidence. I just
can't go out there and, you know, the restraining order
on George had been violated by allowing him to come
back here.
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So I said look, I'll get some pictures. And
he could see that I was kind of disturbed. And as me
and Dave was walking out of his office he said now
boys, he said be careful. And we looked back at him,
and he had this real concerned look on his face. See,
he knew something we didn't know. He says theres some
dangerous customers out there.
Ah. What does that mean? So we had to get a
plan. So we went out and me and some of the friends of
mine, you know, Dave Jones the U.S. Postal Service man,
Greg Sommers phonetic sp.! the insurance salesman,
Paul Fatta phonetic sp.! the millionaire. You know,
none of us ever had a record in our lives, you know.
very few speeding tickets, you know. I may have had
one. You know, never been in trouble.
" And we went down, we talked about what does
this§mean? We said look, we better get a diversion
plan going. So we went down to K-Mart, and we bought
some shotguns.
And then we went over to Cogdals phonetic
sp.!, and we talked to old man Cogdals over there and,
and 1, 1 asked him about different kinds of rifles.
And he, he showed us a Ruger 10 - no, a Ruger mini 14.
And he told us it was a varmint rifle and had a, you
know, a high report, you know. Was real loud.
So we went down to Braco phonetic sp.! Pawn
92 _ _> 6
Shop, and they had this sale on this 2-2-3 ammo, you
know. It was supposed to be a .22 caliber, you know.
And me and Dave went off out in the field one day, and
we shot that mini 14, and boy was it loud. Was loud.
You know, our ears were ringing. We thought well, this
will be good.
And I was raised with firearms, but they were
-- all belonged to my dad. You know, I -- my, my gun
was an old Marlin .22, and I had a 410 shotgun, single
shot. That's what we used to hunt quail with. But
after that I didn't really have nothing.
So anyway, we bought these guns, and we made
the plan and around after 1 or 2 in the morning we
dropped some guys off at one side of the property, and
we dropped some guys off at the back side of the
property because they went around. And me and Dave and
Mark went, and we climbed up to the church. And you
know, two guys went outside because we had to watch.
And the, the plan was if anything happened,
then the guys out near the junkyard and the guys back
down by the, the tank were supposed to fire into the
ground and cause a diversion so we could get out of
there.
Anyway, went to the church, and there was no
casket. It had been moved. So what happened was a dog
started barking and George, he was in a trailer house
92 ,,; ! .7
back behind the church at this time. And the lights
came on. And he stood up in the window in his T-shirt
and underwear. And he had a big old belly. And he had
a spotlight he was shining everywhere. We crawled
through the grass, and we crawled out through this
ditch near the front of the property where the road is.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: We crawled on our hands and bellies
all the way down to where that barn is down halfway
between the two water tanks and where the entrance of
this place is. And we walked through the back of the
fields and rendezvous with the other guys back there.
And finally it was morning. This took quite a while.
Anyway, the next day we stayed out in that
field in the back over there and we -- what we going to
do? we got to find this casket. So we waited back
I
therb. and we saw people leave the property. And so we
started down where the barn is where these boys down
here are now, you know, where the motorcycles are.
And, and this property boy, it was a mess.
All the houses had junk in them. I mean the -- George
Newman tore this place up bad. And we went from house
to house. And people, people we could tell certain
people had stayed in them. But like, like, I don't
know, trash stayed in them, you know? They were dirty.
It was nasty. The animals lived in them. It was --
L; i !8
people had like mattresses on the floor, you know. And
it was terrible, you know.
And
a girl inside
guys out, youfinally we came up to one, and there was
of it. And she cussed a couple of the
know. And she went down the road and got
George. And George came down. And oh, no, what we
going to do? So George came out and he had this Uzi.
Semi-automatic, you know. Because we didn't know that
at first, and
And
that was with
They had beenlater on we found that out.
an old friend of his, two of the guys
us one -- they were in their fifties.
raised with George a long way back. One
guy's name was Stan Silman phonetic sp.!, and one
guy's name was Floyd
And
middle of the
old§houses that used
are you? YouHaupman phonetic sp.!.
George comes up, and he's right in the
road. And these guys are behind these
to be here. And George says who
know. Stan says to him, you know, put
down your gun, George. We don't want no trouble.
Where did you
Andput the casket, you know?
George fired at him. The bullet
ricocheted and, and hit him in the, in the pants leg.
And I had given him a knife. And it hit that knife and
just twisted it right in two. Didn't hurt him, it just
bruised him. But it didn't, you know.
And Stan had a Ruger 1022. And this, this
92 ,.- !
9
Uzi was a .45. And Stan goes, you know, put your gun
down, George. We got guns too. And all of a sudden
Stan fired in the air, you know, pop, pop, pop.
Sounded like a air-gun, you know, in comparison to that
Uzi .45.
And about that time all of a sudden all these
guys, all eight of us -- well, I didn't, I didn't fire
yet, you know. But all of the guys, they just, they
put their guns to the ground and started -- it sounded
like World War III, you know. Boom, boom, boom.
George's eyes got bigger than watermelons and he --
this fat boy started back-pedaling like you never seen
anybody back-pedal. You know, if he ever could have
messed his britches, he, he did it then.
But he ran back towards the cars and back
1.around Mrs. Roden's house. And you know, everyone's --
they aren't even looking. They're just firing in the
ground, you know. Just like what the original plan
was.
Now you know, if anybody had wanted George
dead, he'd have been deader than a doornail. Because
he was right out in the middle of the road, right out
in clear open. But that was not what we were there to
do.
I ran off towards the, the side to go around
the other side of the house which was about 75 to 100
o 0!
'1 ' 10
yards away to see where George was going. And low and
behold, as I'm out in the open, all of a sudden I
stopped dead because George re-emerged on the back side
of the house, and he had me in clear sight, and he
fired a couple, three rounds off.
And I actually, I actually heard these
bullets whistling through the air as they went by me.
And something happens to you when that happens. All of
a sudden your mind gets real clear.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: And everything goes in slow motion.
I mean you're not scared anymore. You just get real
clear and it's like, you know, you - and.then I, and I
kind of like got a headache like am I dead? Am I hit?
You know. You just don't know.
" So I, I saw this car that was out in the back
sidé of the field there. And I jumped behind it. And
then I see George running back to this tree which was
near the garage over here where the boat's at. And you
all boys got a lot of gear over there in this tree. I
mean behind this that, near that tree in, in this
garage over here. And George got behind this tree.
And next thing I, I see him aiming and firing. And I
start hearing Stan and Floyd screaming.
Now Stan and Floyd were, had gotten out into
the open, and they had gotten down on the ground behind
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92 ; __ J 11
where this old building was. And it was like the form
was still like up about, you know, anywhere from 8
inches to 10 inches high, the concrete form. And the
place had burned, and so there was like ashes that were
still - these ashes were -- George was aiming at these
guys to try to kill them. And I just couldn't believe
it. _
So it dawned on me the only way to deal with
this is to, just to cause a diversion. So I started
firing in the air which I realize now that, that was
kind of stupid. Because you know, 2-2-3s in a mini 14
can travel pretty far.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
PAVID: Of course that was kind of at a 45
degree angle, you know, they'd be going up. I don't
know. "But like I say, you know, things like that it's,
its hard to explain. And he still kept firing. And
he had these big old long banana clips, you know. And
so I finally, I had a decision to make. And so I
started firing at the top of the tree.
Now when I started hitting that tree, it's a
big tree, you know. You can see that over here. Then
George ducked back behind it. And as long as I kept
firing at that tree, he stayed behind it. when his arm
would come around, you know, and he had his Uzi like a
pistol. And he kept firing over there at Stan and
92 *' --I! 12
Floyd, and they were like trying to crawl around on
their bellies to get over to some cover.
And about that time I started leveling up
right to the dead center of the tree. And I wanted him
to hear -- I wanted to hear him -- I wanted him to hear
the rounds hit that tree so he'd stay behind it. And
he put his hand out, and all of a sudden he jerked his
hand back real quick, and he didn't fire no more.
Well, he stopped firing. I stopped firing. Everybody
stopped firing.
And we sat there, and we heard way off in the
distance, you know making siren noises!, you know.
You know, praise the Lord. Here comes, here comes our
help. You know, here comes the Sheriff's Department.
Then all I, I don't know, 10, 8, 10, 12 cars came in
the front gate.
F
§ And you know, for a second there I was just
as happy as could be, you know. Nobody was hurt. You
know, we didn't find no casket yet, but nonetheless,
you know, they came in, you know, and all that.
And they drove up and towards the front
there, and guys started hollering out, you know, drop
your weapons. Drop your -~ well, that was good. I'd
already, I'd already stood up and started walking over
towards them. And I'd already had -- my, my gun was
already - I was holding it by the strap. I mean it
92 "V ~! 13
was, it was like dragging the ground, you know. I had
it by the strap.
And this officer, you know, he hollers at me
and, you know, he says drop your weapon. And I looked
over and he, he was aimed right in on me. You know,
ooh. Kind made me get the heebie geebies. And you
know, I dropped it. Put your hands up, you know.
Okay. No problem. And they gathered us all together,
you know. We all got around and everything.
And, and I saw Sheriff Thorn over there, you
know. God bless him, I've always liked Mr. Thorn.
And, and I said hello to him. He looked at me kind of
like, you know, like oh, my God, you know. He kind of
shook his head and Dave saw him. Dave knows him real
well. And you know, and how you doing, Bill? You know
thats his name, Bill Thorn. And, and he looked at
5
Davg, you know, and he said, he says David.
Laughing.! What are you doing out here?
And so they got us together and everything.
And you know, they said one guy was there talking. You
know, he says now boys, is this everybody? You know,
we got some good sheriff guys out here. I mean you
know. They, they talk good at least. You know,
country boys. And he goes now is this all of you now?
Now come on, gentlemen. Let's get over there. We need
to talk about this, you know.
1"' ! 14
And so we all gathered around, you know, all
eight of us. They called it the Waco Eight afterwards,
you know. And they wanted to make sure there's nobody
else around which there wasn't. You know, we got a
head count. l
And we had already, we had already sent
somebody back before, you know, to make sure that there
was communication between, you know, the trailer and
the Sheriff's Department so they'd know we was out
there, you know. We'd already done that.
And anyway, as soon as they confirmed that we
was all there, all of a sudden this guy tells us he
said, he says get on the goddamned ground. And he
started I'm talking about talking like a -- they made
us get on the ground. This is summertime. We got red
ants out here that just bite fire into you.
ssoacm Um-hum.
DAVID: And they made us lay our faces down
on the ground. The ants were crawling up. They were
biting our legs. They were biting our arms. They were
getting into our private parts. And this guy comes
driving up. I don't know who he was. And he goes, and
he's what in the goddamn hell is this, that -- this is
America. This kind of shit don't happen in America.
And you know, you know the good old boy talk had
stopped.
I 921, !' 15
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: I was sitting there. I couldn't
believe it. And Paul, he had these earplugs in his
ears. Because you know, the guys had earplugs, you
know, so, so they didn't have to listen to all that
banging. And this guy walks over to, to Paul, and he
reaches down and he grabs his plug out of his ear and,
and screams right in his ear. He goes did you hear me?
He says you move 1 inch I'll blow your blank blank
heads off, you know.
So we're like oh, you know. We can't, we
can't believe this. So anyway, they finally come and
these cars come. And they handcuff us behind our
backs. And you know, I got ants in my rear-end. And
they're just eating us to pieces. And, and they put us
in these cars.
g And we're sitting in the car, me and, me and
Dave and Greg. And this, this young officer is driving
us downtown, right? Other guys were in other cars.
And he says, he says boy, he says you all guys really
had a day, didn't you? Talking real, real nice, you
know. And I says yeah, I can't believe this. He says
you all don't worry about it. He says we knew you all
were out here. He says you'll be out before dark.
You know, of course, well that's encouraging.
I says well, why, why were - why did they do this to
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us for? He goes oh, I don't know. He says it's just
procedure. You know, don't worry about it.
So they drove us downtown and put us down
there in the county and, and we drove in, and they like
opened up this big door. We went down --
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: -- to like this, I don't know, like a
garage, you know. They took us out and made us line up
again on this like little tape thing against the wall.
They were taking our pictures and stuff.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
. DAVID: And I saw Sheriff Thorn -- I mean I
saw Sheriff Dickerson over there. You know, he came
out. And I thought oh, boy, good, you know. And I, I
called out to him. I says, I says Mr. Dickerson. And
all ofha sudden that guy punched me, not really like
wit% his fist. You know, kind of like, you know,
nudged me real hard. Says shut up. You know. And
what is this?
So they took us in and they, they put us in
this room, you know. We stayed the night in this room.
And they, they gave us some -- they took us out the
next day or something and took us into this other room
and made us give up, you know, know we already gave up
all our stuff, you know. Watches.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
492 _. - 17
DAVID: Wallets. Coins. And I'm a guitar
player. I got, I got like little sissy fingers, you
know. I'm, I'm fast on a guitar. But you know, guitar
players have sissy hands, you know. And, and this guy
took me in the back, younger guy, and they
fingerprinted me. And talking about smashing my
fingers into the ink and then -- I says, I says friend,
I said you know, can you be a little more gentle? And
he looked at me like huh? You know.
So anyway they, they put us, they put us in
these pajama type things, you know, and gave us sandals
to wear and gave us these little bunks and took us all
down and put us in these jail cells, you know. But the
point I'm trying to make is that, you know, it cost us
eighty something thousand dollars. Eighty something
thousand dollars. '
3 GEORGE: For a defense?
DAVID: For the defense. For taxes. People
lost their jobs. And we got this prosecuting attorney
named Shabaz phonetic sp.!. Vic Fisell phonetic sp.!
was working on another case. And I'm telling you,
George, for 2 weeks that trial took place. And the
jury told -- after the trial was over.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: You know, we got acquitted and all
that.
9292 "" J"! 18
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: This is something I'll be honest with
you. This is something you can check up on too. They
did not acquit me. They dropped, they dropped the
charges. But here's what happened.
GEORGE: Before, before it went to the jury?
DAVID: No, no, no, no. It's after the jury.
But this is what happened. Even the judge got teed off
because the jury -- we had a party after this where all
the jury members came to the party.
GEORGE: With you?
DAVID: Yeah. Yeah, well after, after they
acquitted everybody then we had a party.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: And the jury members all came, you
know. They liked us, you know. And what happened was
I
is they explained to me, the guy that - there's one
man they, they elected to be a spokesperson. You know,
like to say well, we find them not guilty or whatever,
right?
GEORGE: Um-hum. Foreman.
DAVID: And, and he came to me, and he says,
he says David. He says -- actually my name was Vernon
then. He says Vernon, he says I'm sorry. He says but
something was, is wrong. He says we have, we have
three black people, you know, in the jury. And they're
{ ..
15K 19
just not going by the weight of evidence. He says we,
we had to, we had to trick them. We had to get with
some of the other jury members, and we had to trick
them. Because they always kept saying that every one
of you guys were guilty. He says what we had to do
was, is we had to work it out to where we would let the
seven guys be acquitted, you know, innocent.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: And then we told them that it would
be a hung jury on you and that we would vote you
guilty. And they agreed to it. But when they went
back in for the final vote, they still made it a hung
jury. Now according to law --
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: -- when a jury is picked, there is to
be no member on that jury that is to be associated in
friendship or relationship to either defense or
prosecuting attorneys. Is that not true?
GEORGE: Should be that way.
DAVID: Yeah. Well, one of the black men on
the jury go, went, was the same club member with
Shabaz.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay? Now Shabaz you'll find out
later is a, is a black activist. I mean, you know, a
lot of people here in Waco don't even like him, you
192 -- ! 20
know. But that wasn't supposed to have been.
GEORGE: Um-hum. That's grounds for appeal
too. Even if they had come back with a guilty verdict,
that's another grounds to appeal.
DAVID: Yeah, but see Waco is funny. Now let
me explain the next thing. Months later after this, I
was down the road here in from if you go out to where
the water tanks are and go up towards 2491 up to where
our shop is, as you're traveling down this road on the
left there's a little paint and body shop. A guy works
out of his garage.
And I stopped there one time because Peter
Hitsman phonetic sp.!. you know, he does paint and
body work. And of course he's, he's gone now. But
Pete, Pete used to go there and talk to him all the
time, you know, and get tips. Because the guy is
reaily good. And I was there one day talking with him.
And this black guy drove up in this car. And I was
talking with him, and we were talking and he says, he
says by the way, he says would your name -- is your
name Vernon? Is your name Vernon Howell? And I go
well, it's - it was Vernon Howell.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: And he goes say, man, he says you
know, I knew I recognized you. He says do you remember
me? And I go no. He goes remember the, the trial you
L 14
15K, .."! 21
had in '88? He says I was one of the jurors. And I, I
says well, I says, oh well, I said you didn't come to
the party.
He goes man, he says let me tell you
something man. They were after you. He says you know,
he says I feel sorry about it now. He -- and he named
this other guy. He says you know, they told me that
you was into drugs and that they knew as a fact that
you were out there, it was a drug deal and that, that
you was fighting with George because they were out
there making drugs. And, and they were counseling me.
And remember the other lady that was on that,
the other black lady? And they were telling us that,
you know, to, to go ahead and hang you because, you
know, you were into all of this drug stuff like that
and you was just a Christian as a cover-up. He says
I
you know, he says I shouldn't have let that got to me.
He says but I didn't know. He says and the jury, they
said that they was going to go ahead and agree and hang
you if we went ahead and let everybody else go.
So this guy, we talked about it for a while.
And, and that kind of stuff, you know, is unbelievable
but it happens. It really happened. And it did
happen.
Anyway, the whole point of the matter was, is
that when we got on the property out here before the
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rKj _ !
22
trial?
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: We found, we found syringes. We
found drugs. And we found just pages and pages of
pornography. You know, and we found this big like
notebook, notebook files and subject, subjectized
sic!. And the subject was methamphetamines, how to
make methamphetamines. And we turned all of that stuff
over to the Sheriff's Department. Every last bit of
it. And they did not mention that one time.
GEORGE: In the trial?
DAVID: In the trial.
GEORGE: Did your defense attorney mention
it? . A
DAVID: No. Because see I did something I
shouldn't have done. I started I turned all this
I
stuff over to the sheriff's Department without, without
him, you know, consulting with him in the first place.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: Another thing is that they said on
the radio and all that and on the news that, that we
didn't even have any cameras. And then they say we had
a camera, but it had no film in it. This is the stuff
that went out to the media.
GEORGE: Well, that doesn't count.
DAVID: I know. But it does count in the
xk ' A ~"! 23
respect that this black lady on the trial was going and
listening to all the news. And that's how she was
making her decisions plus what the other guy was
telling this other black guy. And he was a friend of
Shabaz's you see.
GEORGE: That's, that's why they got --
that's why they need unanimous verdicts, to take care
of those kind of people.
DAVID: Well, so anyway, what the whole raw
deal was is see when Vic Fisell was district attorney
here, the people that George -- oh, wait a minute.
Moaning.! The people that George had out here, check
these names out. You might want to write them down.
was a guy ~- -
GEORGE: You mean back, back in, in '85 or
'87?
~$ DAVID: Right. Donnie Joe Harvey. Donnie
Joe Harvey. And Roy Boy Wells. And they were out here
making methamphetamines. And the reason why the
Sheriff's Department wasn't coming out here is because
they knew it.
And after the trial, you know, Vic Fisell's
got his day before the Lord too. But Vic Fisell was
getting a lot of payoffs from a lot of labs and stuff
all around this county. And that's why they weren't
coming out here and busting up on these people because
g 1.
1592-' -~! 24
they were in the process of doing all this drug stuff.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: And then Vic Fisell had gotten nailed
at one time over some coke, some cocaine. And I'm sure
you heard about all that, didn't you?
GEORGE: No. N0.
DAVID: Yeah.
GEORGE: That's, that's a long time ago.
DAVID: Yeah, well, like I say, you know.
He, he got that what $58 million or something like
that. And he's down in Austin now living like a king I
guess. I don't know.
But of all the people after that trial that
came up to me that told us the reason why we got the
raw deal on all that, because they had been coming out
here, some of these people, and knew of people that
was; you know, buying this crap. You know. And they
knew that Fisell had had dealings going with other
people to where he was leaving them alone and stuff and
letting them manufacture. And of course there was
payoffs involved.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: So you know, you know, Sheriff
Harwell phonetic sp.! and all those guys I love them,
you know. Like I told them before, not all of them are
bad. But some of them, they know what they're doing.
92.b
And you know if they, if they
here and, and then served the
that it --
GEORGE: Might have
DAVID: -- it would
different.
s1-:oacz=.:= Okay ._ }
25
had, if they had come out
warrant and stuff like
been different.
have been totally
DAVID: But you know, everybody around knows
that we do gun shows. And then the ATP agent says
well, they don't, they don't do this for a profit.
See, we sold parts.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: You cannot, you cannot legally
sell -- you can sell only a few amount of fully
assembled firearms without a, without a FFL. Okay?
" GEORGE: I'm, I'm not sure.you, you even want
I
to talk about this, David. It really doesn't make any
difference.
DAVID: Well, maybe I'm just running. I'm
just telling you that I don't believe you guys.
GEORGE: What --
DAVID: And when I'm, when I come --
GEORGE: About what?
DAVID: You're just all full of air. You
make thousands of promises. You know, you say a bunch
of good things. But you got to understand. When I
I
92
92
K
c
CO O
92~ l ~-! 26
come out here and I put my hands -- and I put my life
into your hands, my life is over. I know that. And
you know, I'm making things right with my God. And
everybody else here is making things right with their
God. You know. And --
GEORGE: Well, how we, how we going to --
DAVID: -- I'm looking at my babies every
day. Well, I haven't been lately. But you know, you
know, I am sorry that, that people had to come here and
huff and puff and try to shoot guns around and stuff
like that. Now my life is ruined, my friend. It's
ruined. It's over.
You know, I'm not, I'm not a coward. You
know, if God in heaven is allowing me to have a rough
shake, then I can do nothing about it. I believe in
America. I believe in the Constitution. And like I
I
say}_it's in God's hands.
But you know, these are my babies in here.
And I look at them every day.
GEORGE: well, what's going to happen to
them?
DAVID: Well, that's going to be up to you
folks I guess, isn't it? You know to the --
GEORGE: No, no I -- '
DAVID: -- to the jerk, to the jerk who's
ever going to end up having to raise them or something
_.»
92 y, !
27
like that. Is going to probably feed them junk food
and probably let them run around and really --
GEORGE: What do you want, what do you want
to happen to them? What would you like to happen to
them?
DAVID: My friend, what I want doesn't make
any difference now. What I -- if I, if I had a wish --
GEORGE: Well, can you influence -- you may
be able to influence that. So, so think about it.
DAVID: Are you going to, are you going to
build me a little house somewhere in a, inla prison
facility where I can have my wives and my little babies
and raise them -- _
GEORGE: No. No, I don't think --
DAVID: -- and teach them --
GEORGE: -- I think you know that's not
0
reaiistic.
DAVID: VI don't think so.
GEORGE: But that's, but --
DAVID: Okay. I just told you it was a wish.
GEORGE: Well --
DAVID: You know, you guys go ahead and you,
you can, you can tear up everything around here and --
GEORGE: Come on now. Let's, let's talk
about the children. What, what would you like to
happen to them? What --92
92
92
I
,_
92 -7. ! 28
DAVID: Well, I mean what do you think I want
to happen to them?
GEORGE: I'm, I'm listening. I want to hear
it.
DAVID: What -- have you seen, have you --
people have come from
what I teach and whatall over the world to, to learn
I live. Do you see those
children that have been sent to you already?
GEORGE: Yeah.
DAVID: They are good kids. They weren't
like that when they first came here. You know. I
teach my students --
GEORGE: But we can't leave them in there,
David. ,
DAVID: Well, I understand that. Let me, let
me finish now. I teach my students that discipline
i
begins in the heart of the parents. It doesn't begin
at the end of a board on somebody's butt. You know? I
teach discipline begins in the heart of the mother and
the father. It starts in the womb. It starts on
conception.
If the parents are not subdued with knowledge
and understanding, if
going and how to walk
child. You can't end
made the mistake, youthey don't know where they're
in light, they can't expect the
up whipping your baby because you
know?
I
92}" 29
GEORGE: Okay. I understand.
DAVID: And so what happens is, is that the
parents that I have permitted to stay with me and learn
the secrets that I've unfolded to them in regards to
God's will, they learn first of all how to be able to
take their children and apologize to them. Children
learn about God, and they get to see the parents make
the change first.
And it's easier to, it's easy to go back into
the world. I mean you know, it's, it's something that
it takes, it takes three steps forward to do good and
one step backwards --
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: -- and you lose more ground but --
GEORGE: Um-hum.
~ DAVID: -- but the thing of it is is that
when you see my babies, my babies outshine all of them.
Because like I say, they were disciplined in the, in
the womb. Their mothers, their mothers knew how to
carry them. Their mothers knew how to think when they
were carrying them. You know, this is no fake game.
This is reality.
And when you see this tape, you're going to
see that though they're little and though they're small
yet they're responsive. They speak at a very early
age. They can communicate.
92 .. _.!so
Because like I say, from the time of the
inception -- the time of the conception, you know,
there is communication between the heart of the mother,
her nervous, her nervous system, everything. That's
all -- that's the, that's the universe of that child
for 9 months. And it needs to come out feeling
welcomed. Needs to come out feeling loved. And this
is a principle that very few people understand. And
these children are loved and they know it. You know.
And now you're out on the outside, and you've
got me all pictured a certain way, and I can't help
that. But --
GEORGE: It --
DAVID: -- every day, every day, you know,
it's in the hands of God now. My children when they
end up on the outside and they end up wherever I end
up,§you know, may God be the judge.
GEORGE: Well --
DAVID: I don't even want my mother to, I
don't even want my mother to have my children. You
see, I have children from a lot of wives. You
understand that?
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: And in today's world, you got to be
smarter than the average man to pull that one off.
Especially when the women love each other. You know?
K! ' ! 31
And I don't even believe -- I don't know. It's up to
you. It's up to the system. That you're even going to
allow these babies to even be had of their own mothers,
you know. Because it's weird, it's bizarre to you.
But there's one thing
And that is the faction of love
soberness and principle that we
have followed in regards to, to
deportment, our citizenship.that's not weird to us.
and discipline,
have instituted and we
our lives, our
You know, the Big Brother out there they,
they knocked out a good thing.
according to your laws. And ifI admit it's not
I've broken any laws
it's, it's, you know, you believe, you believe, you
know, you're not, you're not into polygamy. I know
that. But the thing of it is is that in the sight of
God most of you guys are. Because God says when you
layiwith a woman she's your wife. You know. You got
to pay the fiddler, remember?
But the laws of God, that's what we follow.
And we follow all the laws of men that are coherent to
that.
But anyway, there's little -- you want to say
hello, Dayland? Okay. Dayland
[gap]wants to talk to you.
DAVID: Talk clear. Talk nice. Say hello,
George.
92 .2 ., !
32
DAYLAND: Hello, George.
GEORGE: Hello, Dayland.
DAVID: Speak loud.
DAYLAND: Hello, George.
GEORGE: Hello, Dayland. How are you?
DAYLAND: How are you?
GEORGE: I am well. How are you?
DAYLAND: I'm well. How are you?
GEORGE: Where am I?
DAYLAND: Hello. How are you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: How are you.
GEORGE: I'm, I'm fine, Dayland. How are
you?
DAVID: Tell him your name.
DAYLAND: I'm Dayland.
" GEORGE: Yeah. How old are you, Dayland?
Da§id's voice in background not discernible.!
DAYLAND: Three.
GEORGE: You're 3 years old?
DAVID: Do you love,Daddy?
DAYLAND: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Well, tell him you love Daddy.
DAYLAND: I love Daddy.
GEORGE: Good.
DAVID: Are you a good boy? Tell him you're
a good boy.
Q ' ,1!
33
DAYLAND: I'm good boy.
GEORGE: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Say I love God.
DAYLAND: I love God.
[gap] ~
DAVID: I don't know, I don't know if you
were asking him any questions, so I was asking him.
GEORGE: No, I was just listening.
DAVID: Oh, I see. Yeah. They'll talk to
you. He's -- how old are you, Dayland? Three now?
GEORGE: Yeah, that's what, that's what he
said.
DAVID: Almost 4. You'll see him on the
video. '
DAYLAND: Almost 4.
- DAVID: Almost 4. You a good boy? Beautiful
kidé. They got my eyes.
1
GEORGE: You, you have a chance I think to
influence what happens and, and when. Whether you
believe that or not I'm not sure. But you can
influence the system. You can influence what happens
to them. If, if you don't, if you don't think so, I
think you're making a mistake. I think you need to
think about that. *
DAVID: George, there's --
GEORGE: You, you can't influence everything,
' 92 .
.- ._!
34
and you can't set the rules what happens to them. But
you can influence --
DAVID: There's seven seals, okay? Each seal
is a direct and specific truth.
GEORGE: Yeah, but, but that's not what I'm
talking about.
DAVID: I know. But that's what I'm talking
about. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have.all these children
if it wasn't for the seals.
GEORGE: But what's going to happen --
DAVID: I wouldn't have all these people if
it wasn't for the seals.
GEORGE: But what's going to happen to them?
DAVID: Well, it's kind of like Zechariah
talks about. If the shepherd is smitten, the sheep
will be scattered. And God says my head will be upon
theilittle ones. And that means that God controls that
event.
GEORGE: Well, you, you can still have some
responsibility in exercising --
DAVID: Well, definitely. Definitely. 1
mean you know, they're the most precious things in my
whole life. I mean you know, you know, you just don't
understand. All my life I've always loved children.
You know? You just don't, you just don't know me as a
person. You know. They hiding behind his kids. Look,
.. k V:~ -! 35
I'm not hiding behind my children. You know? I'm just
trying to, to love them and hold them the last little
bit that I can.
GEORGE: Okay.
DKVID: And I don't think you guys understand
that. I don't, you know, like I say. I'd have much
rather met you somewhere --
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID:
Box or someplace
And I would have
GEORGE
DAVID:
GEORGE
DAVID:-- on the outside at a Jackin-the-
and just sat down and talked with you.
Not, not a Jack-in-the-Box.
Well, not at What A Burger either.
Laughing.!
Even, even John Cox will tell you
What A Burger's going to hell. The devil runs What A
Burger. That cardboard tasting hamburger, I
But you know, I'm not asking any favors from
or anything. It's just, you know, these aretell you.
you guys
my babies.
GEORGE: Well, we want to do --
DAVID:
GEORGE: -- do the best we can for
And --
DAVID:
I've, I sat hereAnd --
them.
Oh, I know that. I know that. And
and waited on God and prayed and
everything. Because like I say, you know, I'm the bad
K J
guy now. And I'm this. And I'm that. And you all ' ! 36
guys got me marked out as so. And --
GEORGE:
out and tell your G
DKVID: Oh --
GEORGE:
story. '
DAVID:
court one time. Mr. Howell,
murdered George Roden --
GEORGE: Yeah, but
attorney --
DAVID: -- did you
was doing was wrong? Yes or
answer the question. I meanWell, until you get a chance to come4
side of the story.
There's always two sides of the
I -- you know, you know, I sat in a
the night you went out and
you got a defense
ever think that what you
no? Well, actually --
look, that happened to me,
Georget You know, the questions that were hurled at me
F
wer§ so lapped up.
And you know what? George got on the jury
stand, and he was able to talk and talk and talk. And
after the trial I went into the judge, and I said sir,
I said I have a question. And he leaned over from his,
you know, he was still up on that pedestal, you know?
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: He says what is it? And I says sir,
with all due respect, you know, when, when I was up on
the jury stand he says you know -- I said you know, I
O I
K " " 37
wasn't allowed really to say anything. You know,
answer yes or no. And some of those questions I
couldn't answer yes or no to, because they were leading
questions.
He goes yeah? And he goes, he goes but, but
you know, you know, everything worked out. Course he,
he knew I was innocent anyway. .
And I says but George when he got up there he
just talked and talked and talked. You know, if I
might ask why did you, why did you let him talk so much
for? And he looked over at me, and he winked at me.
He says because I was scared of George. He's crazy.
And you know, I guess it's humorous. You
know, I guess it was humorous. A little -- there was a
lot of laughing in that trial for 2 weeks. A lot of
things were, were done that seemed comical. But it
I
reaily wasn't funny. I mean you know.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: Laughing for no other reason unless
to cry, you know. But you know, I know that once I go
out of here, you know, and then they're going to,
they're going to put my face in the dirt and --
GEORGE: Well, well, let's talk about that --
DAVID: -- they're not going to, they're not
going to --
GEORGE: David.
0 O
&" '! 38
DAVID: Well, wait a minute.
GEORGE: Tell, tell me what you think is
going to happen when you come out.
DAVID: Well, I'm, I'm going to go through
the washing machine. I'm going to go through the
system, you know. And people say well, you're going to
talk and give your --
GEORGE: What does that, what does that mean
to you? Go -- you went through the system once before,
right? So you got an idea of what, what the system is
like. _
DAVID: Yeah. I got an idea.
GEORGE: What do you think is going to happen
DOW?
DAVID: Well, I'm going to go through the
system: And I'm going to be charged with murder.
I
3 GEORGE: Perhaps.
DAVID: Although I didn't murder anybody.
But of course, anybody connected to me that might have
had I guess I'm the responsible one. That's the way
they're going to look at it. Which you know, I, I got
to take that responsibility, you know. I'm their
teacher. And you know --
GEORGE= We're, we're not the prosecutors
here. We're just trying to get you out. And that's a,
that's a ways down the --
!JKm
8
1
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92
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Al
Y1!
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #183
3/2a/93
a=ss P.M. - v=17 P.M.
-. .¢ _ . . __ .._. ._--- . _ _ ._ _--- ._-¢_._. .
I O
92__' !
2
g 1 Tape 183!
2 DAVID: -- and you know, that your
3 accusations are not true. You know. I don't know what
4 you all did with all the stuff down there. What did
S you do with all the guns and stuff you found down there
6 at the shop?
7 GEORGE: I, I honestly don't know.
8 DAVID: They said they didn't find nothing
9 but shotgun shells. Now come off of it. You know.
10 What, what did Bob say or, or -- you know Mark Mike
11 was the one that was in charge of all that stuff. That
12 was gun show stuff.
' 13 What - tell me about what happened to Mike
L 14 now. They said that, you know, you all shot him out
15 here in the back. Where -- how did he get up here?
1.
16 What ,
17 3 GEORGE: _Okay.
18 DAVID: -- I mean what was he driving?
19 GEORGE: Mike who?
20 DAVID: Mike Schroeder.
21 GEORGE: What happened to Mike Schroeder?
22 DAVID: Yeah. You know he's -- what did you
23 all, did you all like just go in there and compestate
24 sic! all his stuff? Or what did you do?
y .
- 25§GEORGE: I, I honestly don't know. I, I --
unidentified male voice in background not
P
92
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15O O
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3
discernible! -- you see you're, you're talking to, to
people now whose only role in this whole thing is to
try to resolve this peacefully. We, we weren't here at
the start. We're not here to judge you. We're not
here to try you. All we want to do is --
DAVID: Well, George --
GEORGE: -- is get these people out of that
house safely.
DAVID: Look.
GEORGE: Okay? It's just a very simple
mission we have.
DAVID: Okay. George, listen now. See it's
easy for you to say. But now wait a minute.
GEORGE: Well, it's the truth. That's why
it's easy to say.
I " DAVID: In 1988, they said we didn't have no
cam§ras. We had two of them. They said afterwards we
had a camera but it had no film in it. But they showed
all the pictures at the trial.
GEORGE: But, but you were acquitted at that
trial.
DAVID: I know. But listen though. The
constipation, the worry, the fear, come on, friend.
It's real.
GEORGE: Sure.
DAVID: Now.
0 O
L , > 4
GEORGE: Sure.
DAVID: Here, here we find out here down at
the shop in that one room, you know, we had, we had all
the gun show stuff, you know. All those lower
receivers, all those parts for AR15. Come off of it.
You know? All those, all, all those, all those parts
and everything, you know. And then, and then all of a
sudden they say they raided it, and all they found was
a couple of shotgun shells. Now, now come off -- that
burns me up.
GEORGE: Well, I, I don't know --
DAVID: What did they do with all that stuff?
Now see when I hear --
GEORGE: David, you're wasting your time
talking to us about that. Because that's --
DAVID: Okay.
I
j GEORGE: -- we're, we're not involved in that
whole thing. Our job here is to get you folks out
safely. Okay? That's all we're, we're here for. We
weren't here at the start. Okay, so I don't -- I can't
answer that. And nobody that's part of this team can
answer that. That's really not -- and it's really not
productive to even talk about that. That's something
if you want to talk to someone about, you can talk to
that attorney about it. Then you're, then you're doing
something productive --
IX
y-
5-.
'<
92.k;
DAVID: When. _,_!
5
is he going to call? I want to,
I want to talk to him about it. Because I want to
B88 ""'
GEORGE: They're --
DAVID: You know, that's, that's false
information that you all are putting out --
GEORGE: Well --
DAVID: -- you know. All those, all those
grenades that, that we
what you do with those
GEORGE: You
okay?
DAVID: Well
GEORGE: We,
Let's --got. Those grenades - you know
grenades?
shouldn't be talking about this,
we shouldn't talk about this.
DAVID: why shouldn't we?
I
;3 GEORGE: Because it's not productive.
DAVID: You know, you put those grenades on a
wooden plaque, and you put people's names on them, and
you use them as desk weights. And they sell great at
gun shows. I mean oh, you guys. I mean here you're
telling me to trust you." And, and then all of a
sudden, you know, you -- anyway.
GEORGE: All
try to get, make thoseright. We're, we're going to
arrangements to get that
attorney to talk to you.
A 2Q Q
Q _ !
DAVID: Get the, get the attorney. I want
to -- I definitely would like to indiscernible! --
GEORGE: Okay. Let's, let's go to the, the
video camera.
DAVID: Let me -- did you get the, did you
get the thing yet?
GEORGE: They tell me that, that the battery
is ready to be delivered for the video --
DAVID: If you all guys want to send some
more milk, the kids sure could use some. That's --
csoncs = Okay.
DAVID: -- it's up to you, you know.
cmoncr-.1 = Okay.
DAVID: Don't put no more bugs in the things
I mean --
1.GEORGE: No, no bugs or bacteria in the milk
I
Just§regu1ar milk.
t DAVID: ilbaughing. Groaning.!
GEORGE: Okay?
DAVID: I sure wish we guys could have met
somewhere fishing or something like that. I mean
goodness --
GEORGE: Laughing.! Amen. You want me
to --
DAVID= No. You know what's really, what
really brings tears to my eyes is, is to, is to think
O O
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that this actually happened. You know, I, I went
upstairs, and I looked out the window. And I saw those
ATF agents laying on that roof. Oh, man.
GEORGE: Well, let's, let's --
DAVID: And it only equaled the hurt of
finding out that --
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: -- people here actually got shot and
killed.
GEORGE: Okay. When you're talking about
milk, skim milk, whole milk --
DAVID: Whole milk. You know --
GEORGE: Whole milk?
DAVID: -- babies need, need it as natural as
possible.
" GEORGE: Okay.
0
§ DAVID: You want some milk, Dayland? Want
some milk, Startleé Unidentified female voice in
background not discernible.! Well, everybody's out
there in the hall. Paigis phonetic sp.! want some
milk?
GEORGE: I, I don't know what kind of time
we're talking about in terms of delivering milk. So
they're going to have to, they're, they're going to --
DAVID: Okay. whatever you guys want to do.
I mean you know. I'm trying to pull on your heart
5, C
Li J
strings now. Because you know these -- the, the
mothers, they're not producing too much milk now.
GEORGE: Right. Well, we'd like those --
DAVID: Water is rationed.
GEORGE: -- we'd like for them to come out,
David.
DAVID: Yeah, I know. I know. You know,
we're working on it. Q
GEORGE: Well, let's, let's keep working on
it. Don't, don't run out of energy now.
DAVID: Hey tell, tell Jim, you know, I'd
like to talk to him if he ever gets a chance.
GEORGE: Jim the guy from who you talked to
originally?
DAVID: Oh, yeah. The --
- GEORGE: Okay.
0'
§ DAVID: -- first guy. He, he --
GEORGE: Okay, I think -- they tell me he's
back and in town.
DAVID: Well, if he wants to give us a call
we're, we're here. V
GEORGE: Okay.
DAVID: George, thanks for not being no hard
ass, you know. I know you get tired of talking to me.
But you know.
GEORGE: That -- let me --
O C
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9
DAVID: Remember it's my nightmare. You get
to go home every night to the motel room and turn on
the TV. And you get to go and have pizza and fried
chicken and eat at, eat at Ryan's Cafeteria and all
that, you know. Me, I get to -- I have to -- when I do
eat I have to eat nasty MRE.
GEORGE: Yeah, well we got -- we, we all have
families too. And we're all away from our families
right now.
DAVID: Yeah, right.
GEORGE: But, but we're trying to get, we're
trying to get those children out --
DAVID: Well, I got one on you then, don't I?
GEORGE: Huh?
DAVID: I got one on you then.
' GEORGE: What do you got that --
I
Q DAVID: Well, I've, I've got my family here.
GEORGE: That's right.
DAVID: So for a little while, you know.
GEORGE: Let me, let me figure out how long
this is going to take to, to get the milk and the
battery and --
DAVID: Tell the lawyer, tell the lawyer
because like I say, you know, you know, we have money.
And it's all legal money. It's not any drug money, you
know --
at oyy J1
10
GEORGE: Well, that, that -- you probably
ought to talk to him about that.
DAVID: Yeah. And the thing of it is is
that, you know, a lot of these things that were being
torn up, you know, I wanted to --
GEORGE: You can talk to him about that too.
DAVID: I wanted to develop a trust fund so
that, you know, my children can have a trust fund and
everything, you know, for the future and --
GEORGE: Well, that's, that's a good idea to
talk to him about.
DAVID: -- and cash.
GEORGE: Those are the kind of things --
DAVID: Yeah, well, present it to him if you,
you know, so he can least be versed on it.
" GEORGE: Okay. Okay. Those are the things
yougre concerned about.
DAVID: Yeah.
GEORGE: Okay. What -- in terms of quantity
for the milk, how many children are we talking about?
DAVID: The -- what is there, 17 here? I
mean how many are drinking milk still? Last time we
got 6 gallons, right? And now how long -- didn't last
too long, did it?
GEORGE: Well, we can --
DAVID: You know, 6 gallons, whatever. You
i
I
92
Q
>»- -- J 11
know --
GEORGE: Okay.
DAVID: Put it in some ice or --
GEORGE: When there's a -- I think there's a
tape -- I've lost track now. I think there may be a
tape ready to come out.
DAVID: Okay. Remember the battery.
GEORGE: Yeah. The battery and the
going to come in. And I think there's a tape
be coming out. See if -- ask Steve if that's
DAVID: Well --
GEORGE: It, it may still be in the
though.milk are
that may
right.
camera
DAVID: Oh, yeah. we're trying to finish it.
See what happened was he put the battery in, we got
several kids, and all of a sudden it started going --
the red light flashed on.
4
- GEORGE: "Okay. So the, so the --
DAVID: It started going --
GEORGE: -- tape is not ready to come out.
DAVID: Battery -- right. It won't
much longer.take that
GEORGE: Okay. All right. So we're going
to, we're going to make arrangements to send the milk
and the fresh battery in. '
DAVID: Right. And make sure it's charged.
O . O
a; y !
12
Because this one, this one didn't - what did it last,
25 minutes, Steve? Yeah. I mean it, it was the right
battery. It just, it was -- Unidentified male voice
in background not discernible.!
GEORGE: Okay. Could, could you hold on,
David, just a second?
[Gap]
DAVID: I've got to rest here
indiscernible!.
GEORGE: David? Not on.
STEVE: Hello, George?
GEORGE: Yeah.
STEVE: Steve here.
GEORGE: Steve --
STEVE: Yeah.
' GEORGE: - I was just talking to David. If
I
youlcan send out the old battery.
s'rsv1=:= okay.
GEORGE: And, and that we'll get recharged.
STEVE: I'll actually send you - I don't --
it's not necessary. It don't matter to me. But I've
got another one like it too that's a little bit bigger,
but it lasts about the same time as that one you sent
in to me.
GEORGE: Okay.
STEVE: Unless see I -- the one that lasts
,_
| 92 |
Dk "' 13
longest if I was to use would be the -- it's a pretty
heavy thing. It's got some weight to it. But I think
you could charge that --
GEORGE: Okay. And then we're going to,
we're going to have the milk there for you.
STEVE: Okay, do you -- how do you want me to
do -- do you want to call me right back when you're
ready to receive the battery? Or do you want me to
have --
GEORGE: Is --
STEVE: -- Greg go set it out somewhere or
what?
GEORGE: Hold on just a second.
{STEVE: All right. Unidentified male voice
in background not discernible.! Okay.
'" [Gap]
V; STEVE: I'm tired. Bed at 2, 3 in the
morning and get, wake up at 6. Groaning.!
[Gap]
GEORGE: Steve?
STEVE: Um-hum.
GEORGE: Why don't we do it this way?
STEVE: Um-hum. -
GEORGE: The batteries that you want
recharged, if you could bring those out and put them by
the horse walker?
-0. 0 ,
K 14
STEVE: Okay. You mean like maybe at the
base of the thing?
GEORGE: Su 1'8 .-
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: Th
retrieve the batterie
STEVE: All
GEORGE: Le
STEVE:
GEORGEen the, the Bradley will come up,
s.
right.
ave the milk.
Okay.
: And then we'll have to make another
call in when we get those, get a chance to look at
those batteries and f igure out how to get them charged.
STEVE: George, is any, is any possibility
for
him
all
I
right off -- Oany antibiotics for David? I think it would help
to both communicate, to get up and get going and
the rest of it. That's, that's really been a --
g GEORGE: Here, here is what occurs to me
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: ~-
a doctor to prescribe
going to have to know
STEVE: All
GEORGE: --
going on with the per
patient.right off the bat is that to get
a prescription medicine he's
right.
the physiology of, of what's
son he's, he's treating, the
I
IX
K
.-
QQ O
K Is 15
STEVE: Can he, can he talk -- you did have a
doctor, I can't remember what his name was, but that,
that spoke with Judy and Scott Sonobe.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
STEVE: But I mean it would --
GEORGE: Well, here's -- well, I think
starting out then if you can get as much information
about, about them either on video together with vital
signs or --
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: -- or whatever, the medical problem
is the more information we can get to the doctor,
they're reminding me about Judy's finger too. Okay, so
the medical problems that you have what you're going to
have to try to do is develop an inventory of, of what
those problems are, who has the problems.
i
STEVE: All right.
GEORGE: And, and at what stage they're in.
Because --_
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: -- because to get a doctor to
prescribe things, he's going to need all that
information.
STEVE: All right.
GEORGE: And if you can show all that on a
video and, and have those people describe what, what
the circumstances are of, of their medical condition on
the video, that would put it all together in a, in aO 0
L ... ..
nice package for the doctor.
STEVE: Okay. All right. Should we go stick
that out there right now? Are they ready or --
9'
is finish
this call
will comeGEORGE
STEVE:
GEORGE
I9?-P1
STEVE:
[9aP]
GEORGE
STEVE:
GEORGE
STEVE:
GEORGE
STEVE:
GEORGE: And then what we'll probably do is,
when, when I, when I get that we'll finish
The, the batteries will go out. The milk
in.
STEVE:
GEORGE
STEVE:
GEORGE
STEVE:Let me, let me check.
All right.
Hold on.
I'm glad it's off.
Steve?
Yes.
I'm still waiting for them to --
Okay. "
-- to give me the okay.
Okay.
Okay.
But it may take some time.
That's all right.
To get the milk, okay?
Right.
i
{
C
CI O
'1 I !
17
GEORGE: And then the next thing that, that
I'd like to make arrangements for is to, is David
talked about talking to his attorney. And we're, we're
going to work on that next, okay?
STEVE: All right.
GEORGE: So if he's right there you can
either put him back on or, or you can tell him or I can
tell him that. That's, that's the next thing on my --
STEVE: All right.
. GEORGE: -- my agenda.
_&1. STEVE? You mean you'd be ready to talk to
him right now then or -- "
J GEORGE: No. No --
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: -- I need to work on that. So the
1.
next --
"} STEVE: That's what I thought.
GEORGE: -- time I call in hopefully the --
STEVE: Right. All right.
GEORGE: -- the milk will be there, and we'll
have some information about --
STEVE: Okay. Sounds good.
GEORGE: Okay. In the meantime, in the
meantime start working on, on those medical problems
that you have in there.
STEVE: Okay. What I'll do, what would make
L, _!
18
it like you said the fastest, easiest is just when we
have a battery or
all that and make
GEORGE:
STEVE:
Make it --
GEORGE:
STEVE:
GEORGE:
STEVE:
GEORGE:
for a second.
STEVE:
"lsapl
GEORGE:
STEVE:I
? GEORGE:
now, okay?
STEVE:
GEORGE:
STEVE:
GEORGE:
STEVE:
GEORGE:something like that I'll just film
a, and describe as --
Sure.
-- or -- okay. That sounds good.
Sure.
-- a lot easier. Okay.
I'm still, I'm still waiting so.
Okay.
We can just, hang, hang loose here
Okay.
Steve?
Um-hum.
They're, they're giving me clearance
Okay, so he can --
So it's --
-- go drop that off?
Right.
Good.
So, so what's going to happen, he's
going to go out and drop it off. The Bradley will come
up, pick that up.
O O
K " " '! 19
STEVE: Okay.
_ GEORGE: The milk will -- I'm not sure when
that milk is going to come in this time. We may
have -- there may be a delay, because they got to go
out and, and buy it. Y
STEVE: Right. Right.
GEORGE: Okay, and I don't know exactly how,
how long that's going to take.
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: So I may call you again on, on the
milk delivery.
STEVE: That's, that's fine.
GEORGE: Okay. And in the meantime we'll,
we'll try to do some work on that attorney.
STEVE: All right.
I
GEORGE: And, and you try to do some work on
the;}on the medical --
STEVE: What I'll do is I'm going to, I'll
leave, I'm going to leave the phone here by him then.
GEORGE: Okay. That's good.
snrvs = Okay.
GEORGE: That's good.
STEVE: Okay. Thanks much, George. And I'll
just --
GEORGE: Okay. And we'll, we'll talk to you
BOOB .
K
K
@-
s
Q-
-k_j
STEVE:
GEORGE:
STEVE:
GEORGE:
RACHEL:
GEORGE:
RACHEL:
GEORGE:
RACHEL:
[gap]
BOBBIE:
GEORGE:
phone. Laughing. ! 20
Real good. Thanks again.
Okay. Right-O.
Goodbye.
Bye.
tit
Hello?
This is George. Is Steve there?
Yes.- He's on his way.
Thanks.
Just a minute.
Hello?
Those are the kids playing with the
! Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Get back on.
Get back on. Bobby, get back on.
i
3 BOBBIE:
GEORGE:
BOBBIE:
GEORGE:
BOBBIE:
STEVE:
GEORGE:
STEVE:
GEORGE:
STEVE:Hi.
":11.
Bye.
Bye.
No. Babbling.!
Hello?
Steve.
Yes, George?
Yeah.
Okay. What's happening?
O I
L _!
21
GEORGE: Well, I screwed up or, or we screwed
up before on the placement of the batteries so.
STEVE: Oh, okay.
GEORGE: I, I need to ask you to, to move it.
And I, I don't understand exactly. I've never been out
there, and I don't understand exactly what the problem
is.
s'rsvs= Okay.
GEORGE: But, but here is the problem.
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: They would like you to move the
battery from the horse walker to the base of and I
think that's a --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: White light
stand.
1
I GEORGE: -- white light kind of fixture out
there, you know, the lights that come on at night?
STEVE: Oh, okay. It's a little further
over. It's like --
GEORGE: Yeah, it's like --
STEVE: -- it's a generator box with two
lights above it or something of that nature?
GEORGE: Yes. You got it.
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: All right?
STEVE: Sure.
O I
"' " ! 22
GEORGE: The milk is, is en route. And I'll,
we'll -- it probably won't be me. But somebody will be
calling in when that gets close.
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: All right?
STEVE: Yeah.
1 ozone:-:= And the other, the other thing is
that the message for David is that we're trying to,
reaching out for this attorney --
STEVE: Okay.
csoacs: -- that we talked --
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: -- we talked about earlier?
STEVE: Right.
GEORGE: Having a little difficulty. But we
1.
iexpect to --
~? STEVE: Make a connection.
GEORGE: M-- to, to get him. In fact, they've
told me now he has called in.
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: So now we're just going to make the,
pthe kind of final arrangements for, for him to make
that call in to David.
STEVE: Okay, great.
GEORGE: So, so hopefully that -- he can
anticipate the call from the attorney sometime in the
. '
K -. ! ~
23
next 30 to 45 minutes if everything -- _
STEVE: Thirty to forty-five minutes from the
attorney.
GEORGE: Now, I don't know when the milk is
going to get here. So that may, that may interrupt
that time.
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: Okay? If the milk comes before that
time we'll obviously like to get that in first.
STEVE: Right.
GEORGE: And we're going to leave the milk --
let me check this -- '
STEVE: All right.
GEORGE: -- to make sure. We're going to
leave the milk at the, the same place where you leave
1.
the battery.
'? STEVE: Okay. Real good.
UNIDENTIEIED MALE SPEAKER: Once it's
indiscernible! to the Bradley, leave so he can come
out -- -
STEVE: So we'll just keep an eye open then,
huh?
GEORGE: Yeah. And --
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: Well, we'll probably -- we'll let
you know when that comes in.
O O
t". J' ' 24
STEVE: Okay. Sounds good.
GEORGE: And then, and then once it's, it's
out there and the Bradley leaves, just somebody can
come out and get it.
STEVE: All right. So we're not going to
have a problem this time like the time when the person
went out with emptying the buckets or anything then.
So this is all clear this time? Everybody is aware of
it?
GEORGE: Yeah, but I, I tell you what. Just
to, to be sure, when the milk comes up we'll, we'll
make a call in. Okay, just -- the only thing that
would screw that up is if the attorney is on the phone
with David;
STEVE: I see. Okay.
GEORGE: But, but we'll make an attempt to f
jusg to make sure, you know, in an overabundance of
caution --
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: -- that, that we, we arrange that
ahead of time.
STEVE: We'll get the other, the batteries
right out there right away then so we can finish it up.
GEORGE: Okay. They're clear to, for them to
come out and do that, right?
STEVE: Okay.
again.O O
x
GEORGE
STEVE:
GEORGE
STEVE:
GEORGE
STEVE:
GEORGE
STEVE:»_ !
25
Okay.
Sounds good.
Very --
We'll wait to hear from you then
Okay.
Okay. Bye.
Right. Byebye.
Yeah, I --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Batteries all
ready to come.
IBYRON:
RACHEL
BYRON:
RACHEL
BYRON:
RACHEL
BYRON:iii
Hello?
Hello?
Hello?
Hello?
I can barely hear you.
Hello? Can you hear me now.
Not very well. Let me call you right
back. This is Brian. Is David near?
okay?RACHEL
BYRON:
RACHEL
BYRON:
RACHEL:Okay. Call me back then.
I'm going to call you right back,
Okay.
How about now?
What?
O Q
L_ !
26
BYRON: Okay. Let me try to call you right
back. I'm not -- we don't have a good connection.
I
until --
line.RACHEL: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay.
RACHEL
BYRON:
RACHEL
BYRON:
RACHEL
BYRON:
RACHEL
BYRON:
RACHEL
BYRON:
RACHEL
BYRON:
RACHEL
BYRON:
RACHEL
BYRON:
RACHEL
BYRON:
RACHEL:iii
Hello?
Hello, Rachel?
Can you hear me now?
Yes. This is Byron Sage.
Oh, you recognize my voice.
Yes.
Laughing.!
How are you doing?
Fine.
Is David around?
Yeah, he doesn't want to be woken up
The attorney is on the line?
Yeah.
Okay. we have the attorney on the
Oh, you do?
Right.
Oh, okay.
Is Steve around?
I can get him.
92~" ! 27
BYRON: Okay, maybe -- why don't we do that.
And we'll coordinate - I think they're coming forward
to drop off the milk right now too.
RACHEL: Okay.
BYRON: And while you're waking up David, I
can go ahead and talk to Steve.
RACHEL : Okay .
BYRON: Thank you.
RACHEL: Just a minute.
[gap]
BYRON
[sap]
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
I
3 BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON:
of the battery.
STEVE
see it right onHello? Hello?
Hello? Hello?
Hello?
Hello, Steve?
Yeah.
Byron Sage.
Byron, how's it going?
I'm doing well. How are you?
Good. Okay.
Understand you all moved the location
Is that right?
Yeah. I set it on top so they could
top the, the generator light source
there that's right near that horse whatever the thing
is.
/r
92".
BYRON :
STEVE:
BYRON :. u !
28
Walker or whatever.
The walker trainer, yeah.
That's good. Our_perimeter people
there have just called and said that they're ready to
deliver the milk.
STEVE :
BYRON :
up, and they'll
STEVE :
BYRON :
STEVE:
BYRON :
of a article that
STEVE :
BYRON :
STEVE:
i .
BYRON :
STEVE :
BYRON:Okay. .
And they'll, they'll pick the battery
drop --
And drop off the milk.
-- off the milk at the same time.
Okay. That sounds good.
Listen, we're also putting in a copy
I think you'll be interested in.
Good.
It's from today's ew York Times.
Okay.
So you can kind of peruse that.
Thank you.
While they're doing that, they're
going, they're going to go ahead and move forward at
this time.
STEVE :
BYRON:
line.
STEVE :
BYRON :Okay.
We have Mr. DeGuerin on the other
Oh, you do?
And we're ready to hook him up with
O Q
92- 1M 29
David as soon as David is up and about.
STEVE:
BYRON :
STEVE :
BYRON:
STEVE :
BYRON:
STEVE :Okay, so he's about ready to go then.
David?
I mean the, the attorney.
Oh, yeah. He's ready to go now.
Okay.
So it's just --
Well, let me, let me -- can I call
you right back? Let me try to see if I can't wake him
or get him going here.
BYRON :Okay. I talked to Rachel, and I
think she was doing that as well. So --
STEVE:
BYRON:Oh, was she? Okay.
Why don't I just hold on. If you
want to go check on Dave --
" STEVE =
I
:3 anon:Yeah.
-- I can hold on here and, and as
soon as David comes back we'll go ahead and hook him up
with the attorney. And as soon as the - if you can
keep an eye out for when the, the armored personnel
carrier there drops everything off.
STEVE:
BYRON:
then you all are,
STEVE:
BYRON:Right. Right.
As soon as they leave your property,
are free to go on out --
Free to go. All right. Sounds good.
-- and pick that up, okay?
,
0. 0,
K-
STEVE: Well, let me take the phone over to
where he's at here. Just a minute.
BYRON: Good. Thanks.
[sap]
STEVE
Here he is. <
' BYRON :
DAVID
BYRON
DAVID
BYRON
DAVID
BYRON
DAVID
BYRON
other line here
IDave? How are you feeling? Okay.
Okay.
Hello?
David.
Yeah.
This is Byron Sage.
How you doing, Mr. Sage?
Good. How are you?
I'm fine.
We have got Dick DeGuerin on the
If you're ready, we'll go ahead and
patgh you all through. What's going to happen, the
mechanics, and we've explained this to, to your
attorney already, is once you two are on the line and
we're, you know, convinced that everything is working
fine you all can talk back and forth, we're going to
shut all of our equipment down. Because this is a
privileged communication. We will not be monitoring,
will not be recording or listening to any of it.
DAVID: All right.
BYRON: Okay?
1O Q
92. !
DAVID:
BYRON :
you is if there's31
Okay.
The only time that we might interrupt
some problem as far as the perimeter
people that need to talk to you about this delivery
that we're making
DAVID:
Appreciate that.
BYRON :right now with the milk for the kids.
Oh, hey, God bless you, Byron.
Okay. Well, I'm, I'm hoping those
kids are healthy and sound, and like we've told you a
million times that's all we're interested in doing.
DAVID:
getting a video
BYRON :
DAVID:
BYRON:
a battery
ffor you
4 DAVID:
smon =
what I've seen on
DRVID:
These are
BYRON :
them. We need to
DKVID:
BYRON:
with yourThey were, they were -- they're
all that --
Good.
-- down on it.
Good. Well, we're also dropping off
So that should help that.
They're good kids.
They're, they're wonderful kids from
the --
Remember these are, these are mine.
my, these are my, mine.
Well, I can understand your pride in
take care of them, David.
All right.
Okay? Let's get about hooking you up
attorney here. And hopefully we can work
K.
¢~
K
y
92-
pe
§.92_;" s . 1!
" 32
this thing forward?
DAVID
BYRON:
DAVID
BYRON:
DAVID
BYRONWhat's his name again?
Dick DeGuerin.
DeGuerin.
Yes, sir.
Okay.
Okay? So hold on here, and we'll go
ahead and get about hooking it up.
DAVID
BYRON
[sap]
BYRON
down all of our
you in, you may
us patching youAll right.
Okay?
Okay, we're going to start shutting
equipment here. And then when we hook
hear some clicks, but that just is, is
in to your attorney and then, and then
we're out of here. Okay? -
right?Q DAVID: This is the one that my mother hired,
BYRON: That's exactly right. Yes, sir.
Okay? Hold on here just a second.
DAVID: Okay.
lsapl
BYRON: Trying to get this figured out as far
as the, the hook-up with your attorney. And he's, he
is on the other line, believe me. We're just trying to
figure out how to do it. What we're doing in, in
92
i
a ; _!
33
addition is we're going to send in not only the milk,
but we're also putting in some cheese and crackers for
the kids to be able to get a little nourishment there
too.
DAVID: Oh, that's nice.
BYRON: Okay? That should be, should be
coming forward if they haven't already dropped it off.
In fact, is Steve around there? Is he looking to see
if it's been dropped off yet?
DAVID: Steve, Byron wants you to know --
Byron wants to know if they dropped it off yet.. No.
He, he's been watching.
BYRON:
DAVID
BYRON
DAVID
anon
DAVIDOkay. He has been watching?
Yeah.
And it hasn't been dropped off yet?
NO.
Okay.
I thought I -- wasn't, wasn't that a
tank out there just then? Unidentified male voice in
background not discernible.! Oh. Okay.
BYRON: Should be one of the Bradleys rolling
in. Okay, we going to try this again? What's that?
Okay, we're going to give it another try here. You
ready?
DAVID: I'm ready.
BYRON: Okay. Hold on.
92..
[sap]
DAVID :
BYRON :A !A 34
Hello?
Every time we go, we plug this in it,
for some reason it cuts you off. Unidentified male
voice in background not discernible.! They're still
working on it. This whole thing for a month now,
buddy, has been Murphy's Law. Every time something
could go wrong it has gone wrong.
DAVID:
been a month ago
BYRON :
when I
DAVID:
BYRON :
4 or 5 months to
4.
I DAVID:
end?of it.
BYRON :
there?
DAVID :
BYRON:
DAVID:
BYRON :
in right now. S
lsapl
BYRON :OHard to believe this has been, it's
since this all started.
A month today about 12 noon today is
QOC up CO, CO WECO.
Seems like about 4 to'5 days.
Pour to five days? Seems like about
me. Laughing.!
It's probably more excitement on this
That'may well be the case. You still
I'm here.
Okay. Okay, you still hear me?
I hear you.
Okay. We're going to try to plug it
hold on again. We'll give it a try.
That didn't work either. Still
~ ,x -. J
35
there, Dave?
DAVID: Um-hum.
BYRON: Okay. Unidentified male voice in
background not discernible.! This is the same patch we
had before when I think when we hooked you up with, was
it Brad and Kevin? No, I hooked them up to Steve.
DAVID: Yeah.
BYRON: So we know it will work. But we'll
just need to keep, keep working --
DAVID: Well, are you, are you having to, to
displug sic! the actual --
BYRON: There's more --
DAVID: -- phone lines? Because if you do
it's going to cut it each time unless you have a
crossover in your patch, in your patch switch.
,.
, BYRON: Right. That's -- I think they've got
the?crossover. But we've been doing more plugging and
unplugging than you can shake a stick at here. Hold on
just a second. I think they're going to give it
another try. Ready?
B DAVID: I'm here.
Dial tone.!
BYRON: You there?
DAVID: Yeah, I'm here.
BYRON: Okay. Indiscernible.!
DAVID: Maybe I should send Graeme and Jeff
K.- J
as
down there and help you outh huh?
BYRON: What's that?
DAVID: Maybe I should send Graeme and Jeff
down there and help you out.
BYRON: Laughing.! Send them on out.
We'll, we'll take all the help we can get.
DAVID: You let them, won't let them come
back. Laughing.!
BYRON: Laughing.! Eventually, they will
come back, Dave.
DAVID: I wish we could have sure met fishing
or something instead of this way.
BYRON: I agree with that.
DAVID: Indiscernible.!
BYRON: I think we might have made a little
4.
more progress at fishing.
"5 DAVID: I think so.
BYRON: How is, how is Judy's hand doing? Do
you know? Is she also going to --
DAVID: How's Judy doing? I haven't really
been - how's Judy doing? How's her hand doing? More
pain in her finger? But is it -- how does it look?
Oh, it's broken two or three places, huh?
BYRON: From the looks of it it looks like
the, the finger portion of it and she's probably got .
some bone damage in her hand too.
O I
t g, M a!
37
DAVID: Oh, she does.
BYRON: Yeah. That's -- at least that's what
I think the doctors were saying.
DAVID: The swelling -- the last we saw it
the swelling went down and everything. And it, it all
started growing back together but --
BYRON: Well, that's another problem. If the
bone fuses, you know, in a broken position, then it
basically has to be --
DAVID: Re-broke.
BYRON: -- re-broken and, and reconfigured so
that it, everything functions properly. God's got a
pretty good engineering degree there as far as the
design of the human body. But it wasn't --
DAVID: Oh, yeah.
BYRON: -- wasn't designed for penetration by
bulltts, was it?
DAVID: 'No. That's, that's a modernized
sword. It's definitely a lot more terrible than what
it used to be.
BYRON: That's right. We're still
engineering this. Do you want to just hold on? Or we
can give you a call back --
. DAVID: Yeah, I'll just lay here on the phone
and --
smom Okay.
I U
K ., J
38
[Hap]
DAVID: They said they were going to bring it
in indiscernible! I think. Unidentified male voice
in background not discernible.!
BYRON: No, that, that will work too. But we
need to coordinate that with -- what we're thinking of
doing is, is trying to get a more direct patch which
actually from a peace of mind standpoint with you and
the attorney it we're assuring you and, but I know
that you've got some, some reservations as to just how
honest we've been with you --
DAVID: Well, that's - I mean you know, if
it would help out I don't, you know, unless it's a
legal matter I don't, I don't care if you all guys
listened in. I mean you know --
/.
, BYRON: No. It's -- this is --
3 DAVID: - he's, he's going to mainly be
talking to me from what George told me.
BYRON: Right. But the situation here is
that he has a - there's a privileged aspect to your
conversation with him, because he has been retained,
he's retained counsel. .
DAVID: I see.
BYRON: And we would rather let you guys just
get right down to brass tacks and be assured that we're
not, we're not involved in the conversation at all.
DAVID :
BYRON:lK" " 39
Oh, okay. _
All right? Do you -- are you still
bleeding from that wound?
DAVID: No. It's -- the back leaks a little.
You know, the back part is the bad part, you know. I,
I don't -- you all saw that on the video. The front
part when it had the scab fell off and it looks just,
you know, it's just pink. But it's, it's all right.
It's just --
BYRON:
DAVID:
BYRON:
DAVID:
good color:
BYRON:
DAVID:IIt's pink you say?
Yeah, you know it's --
The weepage sic!?
No, the -- it's just a good, it's a
Uh-huh.
You know, the front. But you know, I
guess, I guess the bullet when it goes in it tumbles or
something and the, and --
BYRON: It may have from hitting your, your
wrist. You know, the trajectory of it may have been --
DAVID:
different bullet
BYRON:
DAVID:
BYRON:
DAVID:No, it didn't -- no, the wrist was a
all together.
Oh, is that right?
Oh, yeah.
So you were hit two separate times.
Right. I was shot twice.
L .
BYRON :
that hit you in
DAVID:
BYRON:
same time.
DAVID:I
40
Oh, I thought maybe the, the bullet
the abdomen had, had --
No. No, it --
-- clipped you in the wrist at the
-- it hit -- it went in, and it hit
the tip of the hip, hip bone.
BYRON:
DAVID:
BYRON:
DAVID:
BYRON:
fortunate that it
it didn't --
DAVID:
BYRON:I
'3 DAVID:
hit.
BYRON:
DAVID:Right.
And then, you know, went out my back.
Um-hum.
And --
It looks like you were pretty
was far enough over to the side that
Oh, yeah.
-- penetrate the abdominal wall.
Just enough to, to let me know I was
Yeah. I'm sure of that.
Of course, you know, these sheet rock
walls, you know it's -- Laughing.! Matter of fact,
the 9-mm goes from the front it goes through one, two,
three, four walls and out the back. And I always
thought that -- well, because hydroshocks phonetic
sp.! has more powder in them then, then subsonic round
BO '° Q
Q,O O
!
41
BYRON: Yeah, and you're also fortunate it
didn't mushroom more, you know, with that force cone in
there. It could have really ripped you up. The
indiscernible! shot.
DAVID: Well, it -- I dOnt know. I, I think
we found the bullet.
BYRON: Oh, is that right? p
DAVID: It opened up. It opened up about --
let me think in degrees. It expanded a little bit.
You know, one, one side more than the other. Because
you know, those things do all kinds of weird things
those --
BYRON
DAVID
BYRON
4.
effective.
4 DAVID
know.
BYRON
DAVID
BYRON:
indiscernible! --Right.
-- hydroshocks.
Unfortunately, they're pretty
Yeah, they'll stop a big guy, you
Yeah.
It spun me all the way around.
I would imagine so hitting you like
DAVID: It's like a 250 pound man kicking you
in the side.
BYRON: Um-hum. At least. But if you can --
we've put the doctors on notice here that we would like
O O
K ; J
42
to have them review the tape. Told them that we'd, we
were hopeful that both you and, and Judy would be on it
and anyone else -- I guess was it Scott Sonobe that was
hit in the thigh? '
DAVID: Yeah. He, he's up walking around
like a football player from what they say.
BYRON: Okay. Well, any of those wounds that
you're, you're concerned about --
DAVID: He's still got the bullet in his leg
too, you know? I y
BYRON: In the thigh? Which leg did it hit?
DAVID: Which -- oh it did break his wrist?
Oh, yeah. which -- it was his left leg, right? It's
his left, left leg?
BYRON: Pretty high up or -- because he's
lucky it didn't hit that, that artery there that runs
on éhe inside of the thigh.
DAVID: ,Yeah.
BYRON: It would have been --
DAVID: They got him on the right thigh,
yeah. Actually, he said it, it went, it went through
his wrist into his leg, right? Through his hand and
wrist and --
BYRON: Geez.
DAVID: It was one bullet then, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: YES, it W38.
K
f'
t
C
CO O
92, !
43
DAVID: Oh, I see. Okay.
BYRON: But yours were two separate wounds?
You were --
DAVID: Yeah.
BYRON: I'm, I'm sure if anybody recalls the,
the repetity sic! of the, of the injuries it would be
you. Two separate hits. A
DAVID: Yeah. Laughing.! I mean they were,
you know, I just thank God -- there was bullets flying
everywhere around here, you know? When, when you all
guys, when you all guys finally come in and, and look
you'll see that, you know, one of the things that got
us upset really was, you know, they said that there was
no automatic weapons with the ATP? Y
BYRON: Um-hum.
I DAVID: And I was -- like I was telling you,
thib one wall right here there's 16 rounds in the group
of a foot and a half. You'll see it when you come in.
And ;-
BYRON: What caliber do they look like, Dave?
Are they -- Y
DAVID: They're 9-mm.
srnon: Okay.
DAVID: I mean you know. I mean as far as I
can tell. But I know that when I went out on the front
porch when the guys first drove up, you know, and I was
r
L
Z
I
92
f-
kK '.
trying to talk to
BYRON :
DAVID:
out of the back.
BYRON:
DAVID:
BYRON:
DAVID:
versions?
BYRON:
DAVID:.!" 44
them.
Um-hum.
And you know, they were all hurtling
Right.
I noticed that they had H&K MP5s.
Um-hum.
MP5-Ks. You know, the short
Yes.
And I noticed, I noticed one or two
of them had -- one of, one of them might have been a
MP5. But I know definitely I saw an MP5-K. And looked
like, looked like
you know, becauseone guy had an Uzi. And the rest,
you know I just had, just had just a
few seconds to glance over the whole - it was like a
football game, awful hurriedly, you know. But I know
most of the guys all had pistols drawn, you know.
BYRON:
DAVID:
BYRON:Yeah.
And --
I think they mentioned on the news
conference today that they had Sigsours phonetic sp.!.
DAVID:
BYRON:
DAVID:Yeah.
9-mm.
Yeah, Sigs and maybe a couple of
those, you know, some of the guys had Smith & Wesson
of 0
k - I!
45
revolvers. »
BYRON: Um-hum.
DAVID: But yeah they, they definitely, they
definitely had H&K, you know. And they had, they had
the 30 round clips in them.
BYRON: Yeah. Well, that - I'm sure they
were, they were prepared, you know, or thought they
were prepared for, for a regular execution of a search
warrant. But I don't think that they, anybody was
prepared for what, what you --
DAVID: Confrontation.
BYRON: -- all ended up getting into.
DAVID: I mean well, Byron, what is a, what
is a person supposed to do? I mean you know, when
they, when that first happened I mean honest to God,
4.
you know, I mean I was at the door and, and -- because
those guys were all, you know, you know, they were, you
know, when, when a man has to jump out of the back of a
cattle, cattle trailer, you know, they were all like,
you know, you -- and plus, they, they probably having
to hold on for life. Because they were coming down
that road pretty fast. And, and you know they were
locked and cocked, ready to go, right?
BYRON: Yeah. Pretty dangerous situation.
DAVID: And that -- from what I'd heard when
the, everything first happened was that that one ATF
K.! .,!'
46
agent said that his gun went off by accident. And you
know, all of them had their guns pointed right at me.
Because I was
And
know, holding
know, my leftthe only one in, in open sight, you know.
I had my, my left hand on the door, you
the door opened. And, and I was, you
side of my body and my, you know, I was,
I was standing there in the doorway. This -- I mean
this is all -- they have it all on film. And the guys
were right across
had my right hand
telling them, you
There's womenthe street there filming this. And I
out, you know. And I was, I was
know, I told them, I said get back.
and children in here. You know, let's
talk about this.
Youknow, and, and you could -- there, there
was no one said search warrant or nothing. when they
1.
all got out, it was all like I say, it sounded like a
football game. They were all hollering.
BYRON: Yeah.
DAVID:
BYRON:
The --
DAVID:
BYRON:Every last one of them was hollering.
well, let me tell you something.
To the top of their lungs.
-- that tape that you refer to that
was rolling across the street at the time?
DAVID: Yeah.
BYRON: That's been -- I know that's been
at 0!
4'7
seized as evidence by --
DAVID: Well, see --
BYRON: -- I think by the, by the Rangers.
So that, you know, subject to enhancement should tell a
great deal of the story as to what happened.
DAVID: And they'll be able to focus in.
Because that, that officer's gun that, that went off,
it hit right there on the -- that's.why I jumped back
in. Because I heard the shot, you know, and I, and I
quickly looked to the left. Because you know that's,
that's where I heard the shot come from. And then --
but actually when I heard the shot the door jumped.
BYRON: Uhhuh.
DAVID: You know, it jumped. And of course,
being 9-mm or, you know, if they, if they were all
using hydroshocks, they'll expand in that steel door.
I
Andgwhen I -- when that, when that door -- my left
hand, you know, of course it - I felt it, you know,
because the door jumped. And I, I wasn't going to
stand there any longer and --
BYRDN: Did you get hit right there at the
door?
DAVID: Groaning.! Well, that's something
that, you know, we have to talk about later but --
BYRON: Okay.
DAVID: The thing of it is is that all of
X
K
P
5
,-
9292 Q _,!' 4s
them started firing then.
BYRON: Yeah.
DAVID: And you know, and of course I, I
guess, you know, he fired. I guess everybody else
thought that was time to go for it.
BYRON: Yeah, that's --
DAVID: And --
BYRON: -- the problem. You know, somebody
hears it, all the Indians are ready to go. Listen we,
we've got, we're going to, we're going to try this for
the 15th time here. Let's see if -- I'm going to plug
this in, and we'll see if it, if we've got you hooked
up with your attorney.
DAVID: All right.
BYRON: You there?
' DeGUERIN: I'm here. Hello.
i BYRON: Okay. I can hear you.
DeGUERIN: I'm here.
BYRON: Dick?
DeGUERIN: Yes.
BYRON: David?
DAVID: I'm here.
BYRON: Okay.
DeGUERIN: Okay.
BYRON: I'm going to hang up then.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: AB am I.
13
{i 14
15'. E ',_ ,
49
DeGUERIN: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. We're
going to just to --
lsapl
BYRON: It's 7:02 now.
DeGUERIN: Yeah.
BYRON: I mean we're, we're trying to work
with you here is what I'm saying. If --
DeGUERIN: Yeah, well I --
BYRON: -- if you think that would be a
valuable addition then we'll --
DeGUERIN: Yes, I'd like to have at least 15
more minutes. I think it would be very valuable to
David and me. A
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. At, at
7:15, you know, we're going to go ahead and do, do
this. But at 7:15, we're going to have to break it
off.
DeGUERIN: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay?
DeGUERIN: David, you understand?
DAVID: I hear.
DeGUERIN: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay, so --
BYRON: We're going to go ahead and
disconnect everything and head out of here again.
9 A ' »
50
DeGUERIN: All right.
BYRON: All right.
[gap]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It's about the
time for us to break it down.
DeGUERIN: Right. Well, let me tell you
while, while David's on the line and, and you're on the
line.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay, that's
fine.
DeGUERIN: I'm available for a face-toface
meeting --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Um-hum.
DeGUERIN: - under whatever ground rules you
want to set up. But I think we can make some real
progress °'
4'
j UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay, is, is
that - H
DeGUERIN: -- if we're allowed to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: -- is that
David's wishes too?
DAVID: Yeah, we were talking about it. You
know, seeing how we could work this out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. And if, if
we do something like that, do you see it would be
productive into resolving the situation, moving for
O I
92., 1
S1
everyone to come out?
DAVID: Every, every, every avenue that's
going to give me the legal rights and the protection
and the safety and the security that, that our
opponents are not going to plant something on us and
stuff like that, you know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You know, you
know --
DAVID: It's, it's making moves to a, to a
better end.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Well, David, you
know, these are things that, you know, we've been
trying to facilitate and will continue to.
DAVID: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You know, I, I
know it's hard for you to differentiate between the FBI
and§ATF sometimes as to who did what.
DAVID: AWel1, you're both on the same side.
I mean I --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Well --
DAVID: -- I can see, I can see the property
you destroyed. I
DeGUERIN: Let me, let me break in here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.
DeGUERIN: I, I think it would be productive.
BYRON: Good.
I
92
I
92
P
92-
/
92' §
;-' i;_/52
UNIDENTIFIED MALE spsnxsn: Okay. Okay.
DeGUERIN: And I think we've made some real
progress in, in our discussions. I, I don't want to
violate any kind of attorney-client privilege.
BYRON: Yeah, we don't want you to.
DeGUERIN: But I think that a face-to-face
meeting where David and I can have a private discussion
will be very productive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. What, what
we're going to do in just a second if you both stay on
the line, and we're going to see if we can separate
these lines. So if you'll both stand by, please.
DeGUERIN: All right.
BYRON: Okay, ready? Dave, stay on the line.
DAVID: I'm here.
5 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay, David, you
stili there? ,¢
DAVID: Yeah --
End of Tape #183!.
7/W 5 /Ky
I
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #184
_ 3/28/93
7:17 P.M. 10:24 P.M.
92_
Tape 184!
DAVID:
BYRON:
DAVID:
BYRON
DAVID1
!
2
-- we're still here.
That's good.
You know --
: That's in everybody's best interest.
: Yeah, it's like I, like I was
explaining to him, you know, there's some, you know, I
want to, I want to be able to walk out of here and, and
I don't want, I don't want, you know, them guys to
grab, tie my wrist, because I got a bullet wound in and
it hurts enough as it is and it's healing
BYRON: Well, we can make those
W8 can -*
DAVID: And
BYRON: -- we
<.
like we worked out back
involved in that evd --
DAVID: Those
I mean you know.
BYRON: Well,
matter of perspective.
history, and I know the
don't --and --
arrangements.
can work with you just exactly
on the 2nd of May. And I was
guys are treated pretty rough.
I don't think -- it's all a
If you don't have a criminal
majority of you all in there
DAVID: I don't. Neither did those guys.
BYRON: Right. Well, what I'm saying is this
is going to be a new experience for anyone. But what
-. o
O Q
,
3
hopefully you'll understand. You're going to -- first
of all, you're going to be dealing with FBI agents.
They're going to treat you professionally. They're
going to treat you with courtesy. But they're also
going to ensure everybody's safety. That's not only
the agents safety but, but everyone involved. That's
just Bureau policy to get a person into --
DAVID: Well, understand, Byron, I can't, I
can't lay down on the ground --
BYRON: Right.
DAVID: - on my stomach. I mean --
BYRON: No. David, there's --
DAVID: -- I mean I, I could. But it's going
to be very painful. And, and I --
BYRON: No.
, DAVID: - can't. When, when you, when you
putkthose straps around my wrist where this bullet hit,
I mean, I mean I'm willing to come out in my underwear
if you want so you can make sure I don't, I don't have
nothing planted on me, you know.
BYRON: Okay.
DAVID: I mean I don't need all that -- I'll
probably get enough brutality later on as it is.
BYRON: We'll be able to work all of that
out.
DAVID: We, we try to think that we're
Q I
92_ ,
4
talking to human beings that have a compassion for
human beings. But what we've been seeing is we see
this -- well, we just see something that doesn't,
doesn't seem like what we would treat other people.
BYRON
The point I was
the people have
this, it can be
that the peopleOkay. I -- and I can understand.
trying to make earlier was that if, if
never been through a situation like
very traumatic. But I am assuring you
that have come out and the people that
will come out, including yourself, will be treated
professionally.
I know these guys. They are not, they're not
going to abuse anybody. We can make specific
arrangements for anybody that has a particular injury,
We can accommodate that. And we will accommodate it.
,.
Okay?
? DAVID: Well --
BYRON: We've, we passed
you before. I assume that's still
DAVID
BYRON
DAVID
walk.
BYRON
DAVID
BYRON:Oh, yeah.
Okay. So we can
Well, like I sai
Okay.
I mean you know,
We can get thesea stretcher in to
in there, right?
d. I, I want to
it's --
things worked out.
Q O
5
That's --
DAVID: - a question, please. Can, can you,
you know, we've heard that, that Livingston Pagan, you
know, did something that he wasn't supposed to. Can
you give me any kind of information on that? You know,
through the grapevine or --
BYRON: I, I sure can. Because it's more
than a grapevine. I was on the phone with him up
forward when we had the problems. And those weren't
your problems. The tanks were the -- I think one of
the Bradley armored personnel carriers was the one that
severed the telephone line. That wasn't your problem.
That -- I mean it wasn't your -- it was both our
problems. <But it wasn't your fault, it was ours.
DAVID: Yeah.
BYRON: But as a result of that, we weren't
ablé to put him back on the phone with you as we had
intended to do. So your point.is well taken that you
all expected a phone call back, but it was technically
impossible. There wasn't a direct connection.
DAVID: No, I -- I'm sorry. I, I thought he
had said something rough to one of the guys or --
BYRON: Well, let me explain what happened.
DAVID: -- retaliated or something like that.
BYRON: No, I wasn't, I wasn't there with
the, the guys that took him into custody and
0- . __......__.>_ .t ._.
I O
1
6
transported him and so forth. But I did immediately
seek some information, because I was the one that was
in contact with you guys at the time with Steve.
DAVID: Uhhuh.
BYRON: And my understanding is -- in fact,
it was my suggestion. And, and some of this stuff has
gotten lost in the translation with Steve. Because he
keeps throwing back -- well, we never suggested a tape.
That's true. I suggested it. Because if we couldn't
put him on the phone to you, and he had just left the
place, and if we could provide you with an audiotape,
then you would know that this in fact is him, and he's
representing himself accurately.
so I went in and I said -- I called in, and I
said ask him as soon as you get a chance to talk to him
0.
if ypu can get an audiotape from him, and we'll either
play it over the phone to Steve or to yourself, or
we'll send you in the tape. And the feedback that I
got immediately was that when the agent went in to talk
to him, this guy had a major attitude. Now I don't
know him from Adam. But ~ and you do. But the
information we got was that he refused to make the
tape. In fact, the quote verbatim that I gave to, to
Steve was that his comment to the agent when we came in
and told him what we wanted to do was that I'm not
making any damn tape. That's a quote.
D, O
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DAVID:
BYRON:7
Oh, my.
So he -- his only concern, David, and
this is what, this is what concerned us immediately was
his only concern was who was going to clean his boots
and who was going to clean his trousers, because he had
mud on them. He was not thrown down. He was -- in
fact, he was searched standing up. But he got mud
on -- if you'll recall the, the two ladies that went
out before him.
DAVID:
BYRON:
had some sort of plastic bags
them from getting all muddy.
no problem with that. Nobody
the mud.
V.
DAVID:
? BYRON:
mud too.
DAVID:
BYRON:
to, was the safe
DAVID:
BYRON:Uh-huh.
It appeared from what I saw that they
on their shoes to avoid
That's fine. We've got
likes to tromp around in
Yeah.
But the agents out there were in the
Yeah.
Their concern, believe it or not, was
handling --
Understand well, you know --
Okay. See so that was, that was the
whole point. And, and it just went bad. The problem
is that believe me. And I'm, I'm sure you can
understand this. We wanted to send as positive a
I I
km, ' '
8
message back in to you as we could, because we thought
he was probably going to have a significant influence
on the rest of the UK citizens in there. 'It didn't
serve our best interests that, that he refused not to,
to send a message back in. That's the opposite of
what --
DAVID: He's, he's very - Livingston is very
highly educated and he's, he's very proper. And he's,
you know, he's an Englishman and first class. And
he - I don't know. I guess maybe he, he, you know, I
guess he could have a hot wire there somewhere, you
know. But --
BYRON: Yeah. I think he's a little
headstrong is, is the feedback that I've gotten from
everybody that's had direct contact with him. And you
know, that's just a statement of fact. That's not any
I
kind§of slanderous statement or anything. But that's,
that's the only problem that we had with Mr. Livingston
Pagan.
we were fully prepared to send a message in
hopefully to keep the, the channel of communications
open and convince as many people as he had a direct
influence on because of who he was and the relationship
that he may have had that we are, we have been and we
continue to live up to the promises that we've given
you all as far as treatment, you know, the whole nine
K
C
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9
yards. We could go down it, but I know that you've
heard it. And in fact, I've talked to you over the
loudspeaker several times spelling it out for you.
DAVID: Yeah.
BYRON: We're, we're still ready to do that.
We stand prepared to help you guys out, out of there in
an orderly fashion just as soon as you're ready to
come. Put us to the test. Do you want us to, to see
if we can get those buses there tonight? We'll have
them there.
DAVID: Well, we, we have been, Byron. It's
just, you know, from, from being on the hit, the
hitting end of the stick, you know, -- like I say, you
know, my, my main interest - I don't know. I just, I
just found out that it was -- how many days has it been
since I talked to John Cox?
I
§ BYRON: It's been five. Five days.
DAVID: I thought it was just like yesterday
or so.
BYRON: In fact, he's here right now. We
specifically asked him --
DAVID: I think he's mad at me.
BYRON: -- to make sure that he was
available. I don't think he's mad at all. But I'll
tell you what. I'm going to -- Dave, I'm going to step
out and brief the commanders that we've had a good
0, 0
g I 10
visit, productive. We're moving forward, and I'm --
DAVID :
BYRON :Is --
-- going to put John on the horn with
you right now, okay?
DAVID:
BYRON:
Pause!
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
day.
JOHN:
DAVID:
tunes, you know,
JOHN:
aboét this thing
' DAVID:
JOHN:
the lawyer?
DAVID:
JOHN:Yeah, let me say hello to him.
Okay, buddy. Take care.
Hey.
Hey, John.
We going to be all right?
I'm sorry I got you upset the other
One of those things, huh?
Well, I just wanted to play you a few
give you a little bit of --
Well, you know I wanted to get serious
and, and --
well, it's serious.
We are. Did you have a good talk with
Yeah. He's --
I don't want to know what transpired.
But I just want to make sure that you had a good
conversation with him.
DAVID:
face to face now.Yeah, we're talking about having a
K O ,
ll
JOHN: Well, what we've got to do is --
DAVID: He's very tall.
JOHN: -- we've got to do is put the
arrangements together to, to work this thing out and
work it out tomorrow if we can get everybody out of
there tomorrow.
DAVID: Can, can you send me some Geritol?
JOHN: Geritol?
DAVID: Laughing.!
JOHN: How about a can of prunes?
DAVID: No, no. I don't, I don't need that.
JOHN: You know where we're --
DAVID: I don't know. I'm --
JOHN: -- you know where we're coming from.
I don't know what assurances you need. We've discussed
it many times. You know whether you need somebody
i
waiing for you out here. I know you want to walk out
of there.
DAVID: Like a man.
JOHN: Like a proud person.
DAVID: Yeah. I'm walking.
JOHN: And that's fine.
DAVID: I'm like the last Mohegan.
JOHN: Bring them out there with you. You
know, we -- if you need to send somebody that you trust
out here first, whether it's Steve or someone else to
' .
12
give you some assurances as to how we're going to walk
through this thing, that's fine too. We can hook him
up on the phone and, and talk to you in there and give
you some assurances. But what --
DAVID: You know, John, I --
JOHN: -- what can I answer for you that your
lawyer hasn't already answered for you? ,
DAVID: Well --
JOHN: You know, or that we haven't already
kicked around?
DAVID: One of the aspects that we're, that
I've been looking into and indiscernible! and all
there's a trust fund that I want to set up for my
babies. 1
JOHN: Uh-huh.
i DAVID: And you know, let's, let's be
reaistic. Like, like I told my attorney.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: You know, when I walk out of here,
you know, even though I didn't shoot anybody --
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: -- you know, I am, I am the sole
responsible one considered by the, the established quo
be responsible for the actions of all these people
here.
JOHN: Um-hum.
1
92_ __ ,1
13
DAVID: So you know, I'm, I'm going to, I'm
going to be vacationing for a long time.
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: That's just the way it is. I mean --
JOHN: Look. We want you to come out with
dignity.
DAVID: Well, no, no --
JOHN: You want to come out with dignity,
right?
DAVID: No, no matter about that. I mean I
will always have dignity, you know, in God, in my
faith, in the --
JOHN: But I mean about proudly coming out of
there with dignity. You know what I mean. And, and we
all have to be --
DAVID: Well, like I said. I'm not going to
die§here. I mean if you --
JOHN: Well, nobody is.
DAVID: -- if you, if you come, if you come
busting in here, you know, and, and rapping and
tapping --
JOHN: Well, we've assured you that that's
not going to happen.
DAVID: -- then I'll rap and tap you back.
That's just the way it is, you know.
JOHN: Well, what did I tell you. We're the
O
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people that were knocking on the door, and the door is
open. And that's the way we've been. Remember your
attorney can work out the matters concerning the trust
fund.
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: That's what attorneys are for. And
this is -- you're talking about a very reputable lawyer
here. I mean he's --
DAVID: I never heard of him. But he, he
talks straight. Now I could, I --
JOHN: Well, he's got no reason not to, does
he?
DAVID: I listened to him. And you know, he
told me the things that I basically already know. And
I explained to him that I'm trying to get my blood
level back up. And I reconfirmed to him that look, you
know, if we was going to commit suicide, we'd have been
dead a long time ago.
JOHN: Well, you know that and we know that.
DAVID: And --
JOHN: Plus your conversation with him if you
had any questions about it was a total private
conversation. There was no one even in this room where
we're talking now because --
DAVID: who is crying?
JOHN: -- we respect that. You know?
Z
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'92__,, >.
15
DAVID: Okay. One of the babies is crying.
I just -- anyway. Did they get that battery yet?
JOHN: How do you want to put the -- I'm
sorry.
DAVID: Did they get -- I was --
Unidentified male voice in background not
discernible.! '
JOHN: What did you say?
DAVID: We're -- John, what did you all, what
did you all just drop out, drop off out there?
JOHN: We, we were told that you already had
picked up the batteries that, the recharged batteries,
the milk, and there was a newspaper article that you
wanted to read.
DAVID: Well, they, they just threw something
1.
out of the tank right now. Unidentified male voice in
background not discernible.!
JOHN: I have no idea.
DAVID: What is --
JOHN: The -- we're going to have somebody go
find out though while I'm on the line. Because it -- I
was told that while you were talking to your lawyer --
DAVID: Uh-huh. I
- JOHN: That fresh batteries, milk and the
newspaper article were not only delivered but were
picked up.
L 14
1592
O, 0
Q 16
DAVID: Did they pick up the milk? Did they
pick up the milk?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yes. There was
19 pints --
JOHN: And crackers.
DAVID: Nineteen pints? Unidentified male
voice in background not discernible.!
JOHN: That's the only size we could get at
the time.
DAVID: Oh. Okay.
JOHN: That's an right, isn't it?
Unidentified male voice in background not
discernible.!
DAVID: That, that will work.
JOHN: And there were some crackers.
~ DAVID: Yeah, thanks. The kids will enjoy
thag.
JOHN: But I don't know about anything else
being dropped off.
DAVID: Well, they just -- right now they
just they said they, they just threw something out. I
mean the Bradley is up here and they just --
JOHN: Did, did somebody ask for something to
pick them up?
DAVID: No, not that I know of. But what do
you all want us to do? Just go out there and pick it
L
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92
T<_ .>
1'7
up or what is it?
JOHN: Well, I've -- when you mentioned it
somebody left the room and went to check and find out
what it was. So I'll, I'll let you know as soon as the
person comes back which should only take a couple of
minutes.
DAVID: Groaning.! Now can someone get me
something to drink? My, my mouth is glued together.
Yeah.
JOHN: How do we want to work this thing out
tomorrow? Huh? _
DAVID: Oh, John, come off of it. You know,
let's, let's -- we're getting with my attorney and
stuff. And like I say, you know, John --
JOHN: when did you tell him that you wanted
1.
to talk to him again?
F DAVID: lell, he's supposed to -- Byron is
working that out.
JOHN : Okay .
DAVID: That's up to you all. You know,
John, no offense, okay? No offense, you know. But,
but stop, stop pushing me. Please.
JOHN: Hey, pal. I haven't talked to you in
3-1/2 days.
DAVID: I know. I didn't know that. I
thought it was -- yeah, it's only been 3-1/2 days. I
-92
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18
thought it was what, the night before last. But --
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: And I've been --
JOHN: Wednesday night.
DAVID: I haven't been under the best weather
lately. It's you know one of these
JOHN: You were on a rollthings.
the last time I
talked to you. That's why I couldn't understand what
the problem was.
DAVID: I don't know. It's up and down, up
and down. I get -- maybe, maybe my
has got a, a big long air bubble in
gets right on that air bubble maybe
JOHN: Well, do you thinkblood kind of like
it. And when it
I _-
DAVID: Like a diesel motor or something.
JOHN: Do you think it would be better, andI
I'm;?I'm throwing this out for you,
have someone that you have a lot ofbetter for you to
trust and faith and
confidence in to come out and be with us to communicate
with you?
DAVID: What was that?
JOHN: Pardon me? Unidentified male voice
in background not discernible.!
DAVID: Big old boom.
JOHN: I have no idea.
DAVID: Sounded like -- Idon't know. Well,
K_, 1
19
like I say, we --
JOHN: Do you, do you understand what I mean?
Somebody to give --
look. I don't --DAVID: We'll, we'll -- we're going to -- no,
JOHN: -- you some assurances that, that
things are working out here?
I say you
,.
I
right?
it.DAVID
know.
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:-- I don't need no assurances. Like
Hey, we haven't lied to you yet.
I'm going to -- yeah, okay. Yeah.
Hey.
You're right, John. You're right.
Telling you the way it is, pal.
That's right pal.
And you haven't lied to us either,
Never.
Okay.
Never.
But we want to try and resolve this.
How's my star --
And you're the man that's going to do
My star getting closer.
I'm sure it is.
u 1
2 0
DAVID: All right. Oh, boy.
JOHN: So where we going?
DAVID: You, you ever been a half sleep and
half awake before, John?
JOHN: Yeah, in the last 28 days quite often.
DAVID: Under my Bible studies no doubt.
JOHN: Throughout some of the lengthy ones.
But I was very patient then, wasn't I?
DAVID: Oh groaning!.
JOHN: And everyone else that talked to you
was.
DAVID: I'm, I'm so patient. I just --
JOHN: We got to get, we got to get the
wheels in motion.
DAVID: Yeah, we got to get some things
ironedhout solid, you know, with, with somebody that's
going to be out there that, that knows the ins and the
outs.
JOHN: Well, I hope you --
DAVID: I'm, I'm surprised you all even let
me talk to an attorney.
JOHN: Why?
DAVID: Well, that's something you all
wouldn't let me do for the longest time.
JOHN: Well, we weren't going to let an
attorney just indiscriminately walk up there. We had
ox 0. ' l
X '
to do it in some sort of a safe manner.
i DAVID: Well, I mean this attorney
for me since, goodness, since the second day.
JOHN: Yeah, but what did you tell
told me and you told someone else that this,
attorney was hired by Bonnie. And Bonnie is21
was hired
me? You
this
making
more money than she did when she was a prostitute. And
basically all you did is --
DAVID: That's true.
JOHN:
DAVID:
Now look.
JOHN:
DAVID: Let, let me say something.
JOHN: -- your best interests.
h DAVID:
ILet me say something.
¢ JOHN: What?
DAVID:-- you know, throw it in the face.
That's -- well, now come on, John.
The man wants to represent --
You don't, you don't take a guy and
let him run a marathon race, you know, make him swim,
make him jump, make him row, make him climb,
all of a sudden sit him right down to a gameand then
of chess.
Now before you came on this situation, you
know, you
with your
bmm mm
job. Andyou were watching TV, and you werewere kicking back, you know. You were out
family. You were eating your crawdads, you
doing your
you drove out here, and you probably had an
;92__.
22
air-conditioned car, a car with a heater in it. And
you came in, and all you had to do was just sit down in
front of the phone and start talking wisdom.
But me, I've been shot. I've been rolled
over. I'm tired. Now you know, true judgment takes
all that into consideration. I haven't tried to come
across like some kind of, you know, Arab over in the
Middle East, you know. I ain't asking for no, you
know, some strange, weird, bizarre government land or
something. I'm not trying to have no holy Ijad
phonetic sp.! or nothing, you know.
JOHN: Nobody's been pushing you either.
we've been very patient, haven't we?
DAVID: Well, what you consider to be
patient. But you got all the securities to be patient.
1.
Youiknow me, I'm in a different position. I'm, I'm
the§--
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: -- rabbit, and you're the wolf saying
come on down. We'll indiscernible! --
JOHN: Look at, look at the living conditions
that you have in there. You know, not just your living
conditions but for the children, for your children, for
everyone else.
DAVID:. The children are fine.
JOHN: And you know, everything is going to
Q 1 ___ s __ _ _ .. . . .__...__.__ _ _ __ .
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X 1 be a lot better --
2 1 DAVID: You're going to see a film --
3 JOHN: -- when they all come out here. You
4 know it. I know it.
5 DAVID: You're going to see a film -- what,
6 what did you, what did you throw on me? Unidentified
7 male voice in background not discernible.! Oh. You're
8 going to see a film.
9 JOHN: Uh-huh.
10 DAVID: You're going to see the children.
11 JOHN: Are we going to get that this evening?
12 ; DAVID: We going to get this film finished
13 here, Steve?{E 14 =STEVE: Well, the light is now a problem --
15 DAVID: We'll, we'll get a lantern going
1.16 here. You know, I like, I like showing my babies off.
17 I lbve my babies._
18 V JOHN: Well, I know you do. You, you
19 showed -- you demonstrated that in the other videos
20, we've seen.
21 DAVID: Sighing.! Yeah, my babies. My life
22* is over.
23 JOHN: Let, let me ask this, this --
24 DAVID: Do you know that, John?
: 25 JOHN: -- if we found out what was dropped
.hoff?
92
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f
92
jQ» .
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K...
1 DAVID:
2 JOHN:
3 DAVID:
4 JOHN:
5 so far we don't
5 DAVID:
7 JOHN:
8 DAVID:
9 definitely threw
10 It's laying over
11 STEVE:
12 JOHN:
13 a second, pal.
14 DAVID:
15 JOHN:
15 DAVID:i
Churbh's fried c17
18 JOHN:
19 upset your stoma
20 DAVID:
21 JOHN:
22 would. Bunch of
23 DAVID:
24
25
Burger.. /!
24
Whispering! John.
Oh.
What was it?
They're making a call out there. And
know.
Well, what --
We don't know.
- is it? I mean they, they
something out. It's -- where is it?
where?
I don't know now.
I'm going to get you an answer in just
Hoping you'd send us some ~-
No.
-- Kentucky fried -- I mean some
hicken.
Nah, you wouldn't want that. Probably
ch.
Probably. Laughing.!
I'm, I'm being truthful. It probably
greasy stuff like that.
Give -- make it -- I don't get --
I'll tell you what. Give me some Long John's fish.
JOHN: Well, I'll sell you a chicken What-A-
O I
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25
DAVID: No. No. That's, that's the same as
capital punishment.
JOHN: Well, you know, we got to get the ship
back on course here. You know it, I know it. And I, I
think your dialogue with the attorney I'm sure was very
productive. And I don't know what he had to tell you.
And that's your business and that's his business. You
know, but I, I hope it was productive. And I, and I
hope it will maybe ease some questions, thoughts, other
things you might have, and you've got, expressed an
interest in putting some trust fund together for your
babies. And this is the man that you have to talk to
about doing that.
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: You know.
1 DAVID: Like I said, I'm going to have
sométhing so solid when I come out of here it's not
going to be no bull.
JOHN: Well, I'm sure you are.
DAVID: You know. I'm not --
JOHN: I'm sure you are.
DAVID: - I'm not in a position to do
nothing but try to get somebody out, you know. That's
what your job is. Your job is to say any and
everything you can to indiscernible! --
JOHN: Hey, your job is to take care of those
Q O
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26
1 people in there, isn't it?
2 . DAVID: My job is to do what I have done and
3 Ito take whatever comes to me. And to take it with a
4 straight look on my face, and to warn every man that
5: there's a higher judgment.
6 JOHN: Yeah, but your job is not just --
7 DAVID: Indiscernible.!
8 JOHN: -- to serve David, right? It's to
9 serve all those people.
10 DAVID: Hey, I have never served David, John.
11 JOHN: Well, that's what I said. It's to
12 look out for those children and those people in there.
13 DAVID: Right. And like I say, you know, you
14 take a look and you be the - you let your eyes and
15 your ears judge when you see them. I mean there's one
16 thing that is first and foremost in this helm and
17 that's the babies.
18 JOHN: Well, I'm --
19 DAVID: That is, that is the only --
20. JOHN: -- sincere when I tell you that people
21 will take care of them when they come out.
22 DAVID: - that is the only me for the
23~ future. You know?
24 JOHN: Well, they're going --
25 DAVID: If you have a baby --
JOHN: - to be kept with their mothers when
O O
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27
they come out.
DAVID: No, I do not believe that.
JOHN: Why don't you?
DAVID: Because I know it's not true.
JOHN: Well, others have been. Been reunited
either with mothers --
DAVID: What, what are you -- no, what do you
mean --
JOHN: -- with, with grandparents --
DAVID: What, what are you talking about, S
minutes, 15, 30, an hour, 2 hours?
JOHN: Well, it may be --
DAVID: Come on, John. I know --
JOHN: - for an initial period of time and
then periodically. But we have to determine --
1. .
, DAVID: Look they -- ;
'} JOHN: -- what's the status of the mothers
when they come out.
DAVID: They, they hit Kathy Schroeder with
conspiracy for murder.
JOHN: That's right.
DAVID: Now come on.
JOHN: Well, they did.
DAVID: I know they did.
JOHN: I mean I went through last night the
Grand Jury process with, with Steven and explained it
Q 9 7I92 _
28
as clearly as I could explain it to him. You know, and
if you have any questions about that just ask Steven.
DAVID: But now, you know, so listen to
yourself talk. I mean you know --
JOHN: What?
DAVID: -- what you're saying.
JOHN: The mothers come out -- _
DAVID: Don't -- look, look, tell me this --
JOHN: -- with the children. They'll
certainly have the opportunity --
DAVID: Look. Tell me this.
JOHN: -- to spend time with the children.
DAVID: Tell me this. Say, say David, you
know, when you come out you're going to be -- you're
arrested. You're going to be taken down. You're going
to be fingerprinted. You're going to be thrown in the
I
cooer. You're going to have legal counsel. The
charges are going to be murder, conspiracy for murder.
They're going to be this. You know, whatever.
JOHN: I'll tell you, David, the first thing
that's going to happen to you is you're probably going
to a hospital.
DAVID: No, well let me, let me, let me
finish. Let me finish. And you know, you're going to,
you know, you'll probably more than likely be
convicted. Because the government is bigger than any
i 1Q I
29
other power there is. And you're going to spend your
2 life in jail, or you're going to get lethal injection.
3 And I'll say, I'll say John, you know, that's exactly,
4 that's exactly what I know.
5 And John, I'm a man. And I'm a, I'm a brave
6 man. I've always been a brave man. You know, you got
7 to be pretty brave when you have to deal with some
8 religious leaders like I've dealt with.
9 JOHN: Well --
10
11
12 indiscernible! --
13 JOHN:I
L14 You -- -
15 DAVID: I am very --
16 JOHN: I mean --DAVID: They don't have no sense. I know you
don't want to hear this subject. But I'm just talking
You have got to be very realistic.
17 4 DAVID: -- realistic. That's what I'm
18 telling you --
19 JOHN:
20 predict the judicial system.
21
22 JOHN: Didn't I tell you
23 having a case where the jury found
24 I was convinced he was guilty, but
,-
25 not guilty. And that's the way it92
DAVID: Okay. Okay. So
/'
92But don't think, don't think I can
DAVID: But you don't need, you don't --
I just got done
the man not guilty?
the jury found him
goes. You know.
K
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30
JOHN: That's the way the judicial procedure
works.
DAVID: Don't, don't --
JOHN: I'm not going to lie to you. You're
going to come out --
DAVID: Don't send me, don't send me a
bouquet of flowers that has a water squirter in the
middle --
JOHN: Well, you know better than that, don't
you?
DAVID: Exactly. That's, that's why I'm
telling you. I'm telling you that I'm here. I'm,
I'm -- my, my goal is to recuperate. I want to have a
clear head: I don't know. I -- maybe it was God that
did it. And all of a sudden I, I need some Geritol or
1.
something, you know.
3 JOHN: Well, what I'm telling you about the
women and the children is if women --
DAVID: Indiscernible.!
JOHN: -- have not violated the law, they
will be reunited with their children. The children
will be --
DAVID: They didn't violate no law.
JOHN: -- the children will be cared for.
They'll be reunited either with family members,
grandparents, whatever.
. . .6» .-. . .. _ ._._- ___... _ ... ---_.
Q, 9,X _,
31
DAVID: The women and children hit the deck.
The women and children were flat out on the floor.
JOHN: Well, then this will --
DAVID: You know.
JOHN: -- all come out then, won't it?
DAVID: Yeah, it will come -- so was Kathy
Schroeder on the floor. And then all of a sudden
she's, she's up for attempted murder? I mean goodness.
JOHN: Well, then I guess some people are
going to have to come out and, and give some testimony
in her behalf, aren't they? As to what they saw, what
they accurately saw happen.
DAVID: What was, what was -- what room --
never mind. Never mind.
JOHN: You know, we're, we --
I DAVID: Never mind, John.
i JOHN: -- we're not going to kick that all
back around. But --
DAVID: Come on.
JOHN: We can't, can we?
DAVID: Every one of these girls is, is going
to be just because they were here, you know.
JOHN: Some have been released already.
DAVID: Who?
JOHN: Two women have been released already.
DAVID: Yeah, 70, 73, 74-year-olds and --
i
32
JOHN: But they were in there, weren't they?
DAVID: Sure they were.
JOHN: Well, that's what I'm saying.
DAVID: You know. James Lawter phonetic
sp.!. Man the guy can't, don't even like killing
flies, you know. He -- laughing! - these people
believe in God. They believe in truth. And that's,
that's why they, that's why they were here.
JOHN: Hey, I just got a note that -- excuse
me.
DAVID: Go ahead.
JOHN: It said that nothing was dropped off.
That some vehicles were being moved away. That's --
DAVID: No, that's not true.
JOHN: Well, that - the note I've got --
DAVID: Well, they're lying to you, John.'.
§ JOHN: -- did not drop anything off. Merely
moving vehicles away. That's all -- that's the note
that's in front of me.
DAVID: I know. But that's not the truth.
JOHN: Okay. So where, where was the drop
off made? Do you know?
DAVID: Where's the Bradley at over there?
Where did it throw that thing out at? Unidentified
voice in background not discernible.!
JOHN: What does it look like that was
k_-
dropped off?
DAVID:!
33
By the - go, go get what's-his-name
who was, who watched them, yeah. Unidentified male
voice in background not discernible.!
JOIN:
DAVID:Steve didn't see it?
No, we were -- some other people
were -- they came and told us.
JOIN:
note I had.
DAVID:
JOI-N:Okay. Well, that's, that's the only
Well, you know --
You been getting some good rest? You
been getting some liquid in you?
DAVID:
that. Yeah, I've been trying to
you know, the water is rationed,
1.
y JOIN:
'? DAVID:
JOIN:
in there.
DAVID:
I'm not going to
know. Besides I
JOIN:
in you.
DAVID:
JOIN:Now, you know, you know better than
get liquid in me. But
you know.
Well --
And --
-- I'm sure you must have some liquid
Well, sure. But I'm not going to,
go over anybody else. I mean you
got a hole in me. It might leak out.
Yeah, I've seen it. Got two of them
Three.
Well, two in your side anyhow.
DAVID: Yeah, little Dayland says Daddy, did,34
did you get shot? You know, and he keeps telling me,
and I said yes, Dayland. Then he turns, says did you
get shot in your, in your side? Yes. Did you get shot
in your front and in your back? Yes. Laughing.! And
did it hurt? Inquisitive. You want to say hello to
John, Dayland? Huh? He wants to say hello to you.
DAYLAND: Hi, John.
JOHN: Hi. How you doing, Dayland?
DAYLAND: Hi.
JOHN: How are you? How old are you? Hi.
DAYLAND: I'm 3.
JOHN: You're 3? Well, that's good.
DAYLAND: I'm 3 old.
JOHN: You're 3 years old? Huh?
DAYLAND: I'm 3 old.
I
j JOHN: Laughing.! You're 3 years old? Is
that right? H
DAYLAND: Um-hum.
JOHN: well, that's good.
DAYLAND: I love God.
JOHN: You love God? I do too, pal. Are you
being a good boy? Huh? - I
DAYLAND: Yes.
JOHN: Well, that's good. That's good. Are
you, you taking care of your Daddy? Huh?
Q O- I
35
DAVID: Say yes.
DAYLAND: Yes.
JOHN: Well, that's, that's doing the right
thing. You be a good boy. Put Daddy back on the
phone.
DAYLAND: Okay.
JOHN: Okay, pal. Bye-bye.
- DAYLAND: Bye.
JOHN: Love you.
DAYLAND: Bye.
JOHN: Bye-bye.
DAVID: I saw him - he was shaking his head
yes. So I --
JOHN: Laughing.!
DAVID: -- I had to tell him to say it. You
know how kids are. They just, they shake their
heads -- I guess they think that you see them or
something.
JOHN: I just was told that they did not drop
anything off, and they're moving I guess some pick-up
trucks that were hauling the trailers or something.
DAVID: Uh-huh.
JOHN: But that they didn't drop anything
off.
DAVID: Well, isn't that, isn't that --
JOHN: Unless some mud flew up from a track
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
B
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25_.- . --__-__._,.._...--..__..____. H
92 I
36
or something. But they said they did not drop anything
off.
DAVID: You mean they're moving those, those
trucks out that have the trailers on them?
JOHN:
DAVID:
something?
JOHN:
you, huh?
DAVID:
JOHN:
there.
DAVID:
JOHN:
don't know. But
, DAVID:
Johg says.
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
to them.
DAVID:
JOHN:I guess so.
Isn't that removing evidence or
Hey. Laughing.! What can I tell
John, you, you rascals you.
I'm sure they're hauling them out of
They're moving --
Whether they're pushing, pulling, I
that's apparently the --
They're moving the ATP trucks out,
That's what they said. Trucks that --
They're moving the --
-- trucks that had trailers attached
Huh.
Hey you, you've got a much better view
of what's going on than I do. I'm back here.
DAVID:
effort to get up.I can't -- it takes me a lot of
0, 0!2" J
37
JOHN: Well, somebody over there has got a
better view. I sure don't.
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: I'm a ways off. Dayland's voice in
background not discernible.! Your little helper trying
to help you there?
DAVID: I'm sorry. What did you say, John?
JOHN: Dayland trying to help you? I hear,
hear him chatting away back there, huh?
I DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: Would -- let me ask you. Would you be
more comfortable having somebody out here, somebody
that you trust and have confidence in in there to be
out with us and, you know, to tell you hey, I've been
treated here -- whether it's Steve or anybody else.
I.
You,know, I don't care who. Somebody you trust and,
andftry to help us walk, walk through this, the numbers
with you?
DAVID: I, I don't, I don't -- I'm sorry.
My --
JOHN: I'm just throwing that out as a for
instance to you.
DAVID: You mean like when I talk with the
lawyer?
JOHN: No, after you talk to the - I guess
you, you make -- some arrangements are being made for
Q»
f
S
92
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/'
9292 1
38
you to talk the lawyer again.
DAVID: Yeah, well, when I get, when I get,
when I get everything situated and settled like, like
I'm going to have it done.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Then like I say I can, I can walk on
my own two feet, you know.
JOHN: Well, I just didn't know if you'd be
more comfortable having somebody come out first and,
and then communicating back in with you.
DAVID: You know, I used to walk the streets
of LA by myself, John, you know. I used to --
JOHN: Hey, I used to walk the streets of DC
by myself and I still do.
DAVID: Well, now DC's not that bad. I mean
1.
every other person -
I JOHN: How much time have you spent there?
DAVID: I've been there quite a bit. On the
every other, every street corner there's a federal
agent. Come on.
JOHN: You were on the wrong side of town.
DAVID: Laughing.!
JOHN: Believe me.
DAVID: You ever been up toward Tacoma Park?
JOHN: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Laughing.!
DAVID: Laughing.! You see the Adventist
K
i
C
C, I >
39
out there?
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID: The Seventh Day Adventist?
JOHN: I know exactly where it is. Sure.
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: Yeah. I've --
DAVID: Well, we used to always --
JOHN: - I've eaten in, in, they have a
hospital there.
DAVID: Yeah, do you get that vegetarian
crawdad food?
JOHN: Well, this was back in 1948.
DAVID: Oh, '48? Oh, my.
JOHN: '48. Following an automobile
accident.
1.
, DAVID: Oh, you were in a accident?
*3 JOHN: Yeah. Yeah.
DAVID: Adventists are pretty good people
though when it comes to that stuff.
JOHN: Hey, took good care of me.
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: Took good care.
DAVID: Kind of expensive but
. indiscernib1e! --
JOHN: Well, that was the least of my concern
I'm, I'm sure back then.
I
402- 1 DAVID: Yeah.
2 JOHN: Just a kid.
3 DAVID: Did you get banged up pretty bad
4 or --
5 JOHN: No. Uh-uh. Wasn't in there too long.
6 i DAVID: Oh.
7 JOHN: Just a kid.
8 DAVID: Well, look, John, could you do me a
9 favor? _
10 JOHN: Kids, kids rehabilitate themselves
11 sometimes a lot quicker than adults do.
12 DAVID: Oh, tell me. I'm 33, and I know
13 that. I used to, I used to work out when I was like,
fL 14 you know, up to like 24 I used to work out. And you
r"
92.
f
9215 know, no problem. And you get 33 and you keep working
/.
16 out and you -- the pain seems to last longer for some
17 readbn.
18 JOHN: Tough to get old, isn't it?
19 DAVID: Yeah. I'm Old.
20 JOHN: Is Steve going to be working on that,
21 on that video for you?
22 DAVID: Yeah. Here.
23 JOHN: A Good.
24 DAVID: He wants to talk to you a bit.
25 JOHN: Well, I'll be back in touch with you
this evening I guess when I find out what arrangements
r
92
* r
92O I
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41
are being made for you to talk to the lawyer.
DAVID: Yeah, we're going to, we're going to
go ahead and, you know, while this jukebox isn't
playing outside.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: I want to see if I can't get a wink
before they - and don't tell them to crank it up yet,
all right? I mean you know, I've had some of the most
weirdest dreams of my life.
JOHN: Well, you and I --
DAVID: Rah, rah mimicking noises.!
JOHN: -- you and I, you and I, I -- Steve
said that wasn't bothering you people one bit.
DAVID: I think that's his propaganda
statement.
I.
. JOHN: You do? Laughing.!
=2DAVID: Laughing.!
JOHN: You think he was being less than
candid with me?
DAVID: I -- you know.
JOHN: I find that hard to believe.
DAVID: If I was just to take the phone off
the hook and make you guys listen to what you're
dishing out, you'd all be on your hands over there.
You'd be all walking around on your ears.
JOHN: You mean you find it hard to, to dance
O O
<_
42
to?
DAVID: I can't even play along with it,
John.
JOHN: God, that's terrible. That's
terrible. Listen, after, after --
DAVID: But I tell you the worst, the worst
one of all --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: - if you really want to drive us
crazy --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- is that Kathy Schroeder one.
Laughing.!
JOHN: What -- oh, I -- I don't, I don't even
know if I've heard that.
;.
, DAVID: Hello, Steve. Hello, Steve.
'1 JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: How are you doing? I mean it's been
such a long day. I mean if, if she didn't have that
rehearsed I mean --
JOHN: Well, we could bring -- we could play
"Bringing in the Sheaves" or something, huh? How would
that be?
DAVID: I'm sorry. What did you say?
JOHN: We could play The Old Rugged Cross"
or rock, "Rock of Ages" or something like that.
' .O_92 .
Q
92. .>
DAVID: That will work. That will -- that's,
that's better.
JOHN: "Amazing Grace."
DAVID: That Alice Cooper one, though, that,
that was pretty raunchy.
JOHN: What?
DAVID: You know.
JOHN: What?
DAVID: You know. They, they played the half
of the album of the old Alice Cooper 1972.
JOHN: They played that?
DAVID: Yeah. That was pretty bad. He never
was a singer, you know. You know --
JOHN: Listen.
DAVID: They, they played that one about, you
4.
know, I'm going to pull the trigger on my gun, and
youill be dead and blah, blah, blah. And you know --
JOHN: I don't know anything about that.
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: The only thing I knew about was there
was, there's supposed to be some spoken dialogue and,
and some sounds and that's about it.
DAVID: Boy, it's weird. I'll tell you.
JOHN: Do - when you -- '
DAVID: I had this dream --
JOHN: -- when you were concluding your
K
0
K
4-
92
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44
conversation with your lawyer, did he indicate that he
was going to try and get back with you this evening,
tomorrow, whatever? Do you know?
DAVID: I -- no. He just said he was going
to work it out.
JOHN: Okay. Okay.
DAVID: I had this dream -- you got this one
sound here that goes mimicking noises!. You know,
real weird, right? And the dream --
JOHN: What's it sound like a chain saw or
something?
DAVID: No. It goes mimicking noises!. You
know. And, and I was - I dozed off, you know. And I
was asleep, and I dreamed I was sitting in a church.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
" DAVID: And the preacher is up there with
thisilike this horn in his hand. He was telling
everybody, you know, I'm going to pass this plate
around one more time. And I -- and if it's not full,
I'm going to keep doing this, you know. Laughing.!
JOHN: Laughing.!
DAVID: It was, it -- and I, I woke up out of
it. And it was that thing outside going mimicking
noises!. So anyway.
. JOHN: Hey, bud.
DAVID: Hey, look. Let me, let me doze a
Q O
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45
little bit here. And I'll give you a call a little bit
later sO.
evening.JOHN: We're going to talk again this
DAVID: Yeah, I'll give you some more studies
or something.
studies
in that
studies
1.
wonder
§JOHN: Or something.
DAVID: I'll give you some more something.
JOHN: I don't know if I'm ready for anymore
We're --
DAVID: Don't -- make sure you don't end up
hot seat.
E0JOHN: We're talking nuts and bolts now, not
You know that and I know that.
DAVID: That's all I am is a study. I'm a
many. Sojourner.
JOHN: Hey. Steven there, or is he going to
work on the video?
CO.DAVID: He's going to be working on videos.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: Here, you can say hello if you want
JOHN: Sure. Sure.
Pause!
STEVE: Hello, John?
JOHN: Well, you sound refreshed. You
92>- !
46
must --
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: -- have had a good night's sleep
last --
STEVE: -- got in about 4 hours last night.
JOHN: That's great. That's great.
STEVE: So you're going to be around through
the evening then?
JOHN: You bet. You bet.
STEVE: I need to -- I was going to just talk
with him a little bit.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: So you're going to be around? I'll,
I'll give you a call back.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Okay?4
3 JOHN: About how long?
STEVE: Probably not too long.
JOHN: A half hour? An hour?
STEVE: A half hour to an hour.
JOHN: All right.
STEVE: Because I was thinking about maybe
grabbing something to eat here. It's getting kind of
late.
JOHN: Well, try and get that video out of
the way so we --
O
L
to try to
kids.STEVE:
JOIN:
STEVE:
JOI-N:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
get it
JOIN:
STEVE:
JOHN:Q
J
47
That's right.
-- can take a look at it this evening.
That's what I want to do.
Okay.
I'm going to get on that right away.
Okay.
I need a lantern here. So I'm going
worked out.
Work it out and get the milk to the
All right. b
And there should have been some
crackers in there too, huh?
I
#2
or what?STEVE:
JOIN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOIN:
STEVE:
JOIN:
STEVE:
JOIN:
STEVE:Yeah, there are.
Okay.
Thanks a lot, John.
You bet.
Okay, talk to you a little later.
Bye.
iii
Hello?
Steve?
Yes.
Is David there? Or is he sacked out
He's, he's got his eyes closed.
Q O Y
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48
JOHN: Can you see him?
STEVE: Yeah, I can.
JOHN: Let me talk to him for just a second.
Put the phone over next to him, will you?
STEVE: Just a minute. John would like to
talk to you for just a second.
DAVID: What, John?
JOHN: Just want to tell you that the
speakers are going to stay on until a decision is made
by you to come out. Okay?
DAVID: Go ahead.
JOHN: Just want to let you know.
DAVID: No problem. Thanks.
JOHN: Talk to you in a little while.
DAVID: All right. I
W JOHN: Bye.
.} iii
SHERRY: Hello?
JOHN: Hi. This is John.
SHERRY: Okay.
JOHN: Who's this?
SHERRY: This is Sherry.
JOHN: Sherry.
SHERRY: Yes.
JOHN: How are you?
SHERRY: Hi.
/
6, 5
' 4 9
JO"N: Haven't talked to you in a while.
SHERRY: No .
JOHN: Is Steve around there?
SHERRY : Yeah .
JOHN: Can I - -
SHERRY: Just a minute.
JOHN: -- can I talk to him for a minute?
SHERRY: Yeah, just a minute.
Pause!
STEVE: Hi, JOhn.
JOHN: Steve. I didn't want --
STEVE : Yeah .
JOHN: -- to take you away from working with
that video. But something came up --
STEVE: Yeah. Okay.
" JOHN: -- and I wanted to pass it by you.
swam = All right .
JOHN: Because we had a great dialogue with,
with David and with you.
STEVE: Good, good.
JOHN: And we want to keep things upbeat.
STEVE: Right .
JOHN: We have just been told that there's
some movement in the tree line out near you someplace.
And --
STEVE: In the tree line?
9 Q
;__ _ s so
JOHN: Well, let me just tell you --
srsva: Okay.
JOHN: -- all I know.
srsvs: Okay.
JOHN: We were told that there's some
movement in the tree line out by there. And at this
point, I can't tell you if they're people or they're
cattle. I can't tell you.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: But we don't need any problems this
evening. I mean things are smooth. Things are going
well.
STEVE: Well, in honesty there's everybody
that's here, I'll be --
JOHN: The only thing I'm asking you --
' STEVE: Okay.
I
~ ;} JOHN: -- we do not think -- no, I don't
think it's anybody in there. I think it's a couple,
you know, some more like we had the other night.
STEVE: Oh, I see.
JOHN: People trying to get in.
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN: It may be. It may be is all I'm
saying.
STEVE: Well, like you say it could be -- I
know that there have been cattle in --
5 92
51
JOHN: God knows.
STEVE: -- in -- yeah.
JOHN:- But if they're people and we see them
coming up
them, and
Bradleys.to the front, we are going to put a light on
we're going to instruct them to walk to the
STEVE: Okay. So just, you know --
JOHN: And don't open the door. Don't open
the door for them. Let's keep this thing positive the
way it's been going. We had a good evening. Let's
keep it going, huh?
STEVE: Okay
this video.
JOHN: Well,
do. But I just wanted
~ STEVE: What
I
;3 JOHN: Or we
STEVE: Okay.I'll be downstairs working on
yeah. You do what you got to
to tell you what we just saw.
you saw.
think we saw.'
JOHN: And things sound very positive in
there. Things are sounding upbeat. Get back on the
video, but we're going to instruct people if we see
them coming around there - we're going to put --
STEVE: I see.
JOHN: -- we're going to put a light on them
and instruct them to walk towards the light, towards
the Bradley. Just don't open the door. We don't need
. "V'H "
"J "'! s2
anymore problems, huh?
STEVE: I'm hitting on the video right now.
JOHN: Okay. Okay. Thank --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Thank you.
STEVE: Sure. Bye.
JOHN: Bye.
O '1' Q
DAVID JONES: Hello?
JOHN: David?
DAVID JONES: Yes.
JOHN: John.
DAVID JONES: Yes. This is David Jones.
JOHN: Yeah, David. Listen. Can, can you
get a message to Steven? I don't want to interrupt
David right now. But can you get a message to Steven?
Because he said he was going downstairs, and he's going
to be doing some videoing sic! and --
DAVID JONES: Yeah.
JOHN: -- and I just wanted to let him know
about something that's going on outside, okay?
DAVID JONES: Okay. Who wants to --
JOHN: This is John. Cox.
DAVID JONES: Yeah. I was, I was going to
see if somebody else wanted to --
JOHN: Talk to me?
0 0!
53
DAVID JONES: -- listen to the message and
then go tell him.
JOHN: Okay. That's fine if you got somebody
else there.
DAVID JONES: Here. Listen to the message.
Pause!
MARGUERITA: Hello?
JOHN: Hi. Who's this?
MARGUERITA: Marguerita. i
JOHN: Marguerita. John Cox.
MARGUERITA: Hi, John.
JOHN: How are you?
MARGUERITA: Fine, thank you.
JOHN: Can you give Steven a message for me?
MARGUERITA: Sure.
'- JOHN: I told him earlier that we were moving
some§pickup trucks and trailers from out in the front
of the --
MARGUERITA: Yeah.
JOHN: -- just -- we're not banging them,
pushing them. We're just moving them out of there, all
right?
MARGUERITA: Um-hum.
JOHN: We either right now or shortly will
have a Bradley coming up. There's a red pick-up truck
with a horse trailer on the back of it --
. '! 54
MARGUERITA: Yeah.
JOHN: -- outside the front door.
MARGUERITA: Right over by the front door,
yeah.
JOHN: Yeah. They'll be coming up to move
that out of there. And I just wanted to let you know
so that there's -- nobody's concerned about anything.
Nobody -- no surprises. And we're going to have A
probably a couple of guys get out of the Bradley, get
in the pick-up truck, see if they can start it up --
MARGUERITA: Okay.
JOHN: -- and drive it off. If they can't
drive it off, they'll probably just put a --
MARGUERITA= Okay. They can drive --
JOHN: -- a chain on it and haul it off.
~ MARGUERITA: -- the first one off too. They
pushed it out.
JOHN: I'm sorry.
MARGUERITA: The -- you know, the first
trailer they --
JOHN: The white one with the trailer?
MARGUERITA: Yeah. Um-hum.
JOHN: They pushed --
MARGUERITA: They pushed it too.
JOHN: Yeah, well I told Steven earlier that
they were doing that. But I just want him, want him to
I
55
be aware that someone will probably be getting out of
the Bradley to get in the cab of the pick-up truck and
will be --
MARGUERITA: Okay.
JOHN: -- driving it off. Okay? So
there's --
MARGUERITA:
JOHN: - nO
MARGUERITA:
JOHN: And I
we'll talk to him when
MARGUERITA:Thank you, John.
surprises, no concern.
Okay.
know he's busy videoing
he's done doing that.
All right.
JOHN: Thank you.
MARGUERITA: Okay. You're welcome.
JOHN: Bye.
. MARGUERITA: Bye-bye.
f t 0 e
4
JOHN: How are you?
STEVE: Not too bad. I had quite a lot of l
troubles with this camera. This battery, the last one
that they sent to me, it was only good for I'm talking
about like I think maybe 5, 10 minutes. Five --
somewhere in there.
JOHN: You're kidding me?
STEVE: No. And then the thing went dead.
And also wasn't the right size for the camera. So I
O 2 O.
S6
had one of the guys, I says well, can't you get this
thing worked out where I stick some wires from the
contact points of the battery, the battery pack to the
camera. He did. And at least I got a number of
minutes on it of Thibodeau. He wanted ---I guess there
was a request to get something from him to his mother
or something --
JOHN: Um-hum. '
STEVE: -- from what I understand. And he
was asking me if I can't do something with him in the
next day or two. And I, I says yeah, we can do that.
AJOHN: Does the -- both batteries that went
in were tested before they went in.
STEVE: Really? They --
EOHN: Yeah.
M STEVE: -- they didn't last long. I don't
know why that is if it's the camera or what. But --
I JOHN: And it's the right battery for the
camera, right?
STEVE: Well, yeah. You know, I sent in a
big battery pack I had that I --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- bought 2 years ago as a special.
And it's supposed to be good for 6 hours.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: And while we still had electricity, I
went and charged that57
thing up for at least 12 to 16
hours. That thing should have been good for six hours.
I hooked it up today thinking it would be okay.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: And
it. So they can look
Maybe it's a dry cell
doesn't make sense to
JOHN: Well
STEVE: But
don't have, I, I --I didn't even get anything out of
it over, see what's up or wrong.
or something. I don't know. It
me.
anyway it's done. I, you know, I
JOHN: We've got another alternative that I'm
just going to throw at you for grabs. If you want to
send the battery
camera --
.. STEVE:
JOHN:
i STEVE:
the one you sent
JOHN:
STEVE:Okay.that you have that came with the
I did by the way.
-- to be charged by us --
I sent, I sent three of them. I sent
earlier.
And then I had one that came with the
camera. I sent that one out also. Then I --
JOHN: Earlier today?
STEVE: Yeah. when they picked it up there
W35 -°
JOHN: And they all came back in to you?
K
cm
Q-
§92
Q/A
Q 58
1 STEVE: No. They haven't --
2 JOHN: No.
3 STEVE: -- they haven't come back yet.
4 Apparently when they --
5 JOHN: Okay.
6 STEVE: -- picked up the one they dropped off
7 this. when they dropped off --
8 JOHN: Okay .
9 STEVE: -- that milk there was a, there was
10 in a package --
11 JOHN: Okay.
12 STEVE: -- one battery here.
13 JOHN: All right.
14 STEVE: A battery --
15 End of Tape #184!
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