Document text
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
4
TAPE #149
3/21/93
6:19 A.M. 11:37 A.M.
Tape 149!
[Telephone dialed, then ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER 1: If disconnect
the phone, it'll still ring.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER 2: Going to let lt
keep ringing.
[Gap.]
[Ringing for a continued period of time.]
[Busy signal]
[Telephone dialed, phone company recording
[Telephone dialed, then ringing for a
continued period of time.]
GRAHAM: Test one, two, three. Hello?
Hello? Why don't you --
JOHN-3
GRAHAM:
speaking?
JOHN-3
GRAHAM
the negotiators?
JOHN-3
GRAHAM:
having a little hit of trouble with the phones for the
moment, so we're -- I just decided to tested it. YouHello?
Hello? This is -- who is this
This John Hylar.
John Hyslan sic!. Are you one of
Yeah. Who's this?
My name is Graham. We're just
want to speak to Steve?
JOHN-3: Yeah, if I could.
3
GRAHAM: All right. Just hang on one moment.
We -- he's been trying to get in contact with someone
too. So, just one moment.
JOHN-3: What's the problem with the phone,
Graham?
GRAHAM: We put two phones here on two
different lines. This is the one which David normally
speaks through and there's one downstairs which Wayne
speaks on and -- we want to get the one downstairs to
going out. I'm just trying to get that one going at
the moment.
JOHN-3: What's going on in there this
morning, Graham?
GRAHAM: Well, Steve was just giving a bit of
a study. Sorry. I'm just a bit out of my breath.
would you -- if you'd like to just hang on a minute
I'll go get Steve for you.
JOHN-3: /Ieah. Did, did you hear a ringing
though, Graham?
GRAHAM: No, I didn't.
JOHN-3: You didn't hear the phone ringing?
GRAHAM: No. Has - have you been trying to
get through for some time?
JOHN-3: Yeah, we have.
GRAHAM: Well, I'm, I'm, I'm terribly sorry
about that. I'm just -- I just spent the last few
0 O
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minutes trying to get the thing going. But at least,
least we've got through -- contact now.
JOHN-3: Well --
GRAHAM= Just, just hold on a minute. I'll
go get Steve for you. Okay?
JOHN-3: All right.
GRAHAM: Okay.
Pause.!
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN-3: Steve.
STEVE: John.
JOHN-3: How are you?
STEVE: Not bad. How are you doing?
JOHN-3: I'm doing okay. We're ready to get
going today, huh?
STEVE: I'm disappointed. This crazy - I
went down-- I was down at the other phone and the thing
was deader than a doornail. We're trying to work on
it. And then this one was dead. I'm amazed you got
through even. lEecause I picked it up and someone else,
and the thing was dead. So, I started --
JOHN3: What -- '
STEVE: -- wondering if it wasn't a line
outside or what.
JOHN-3: What's the matter with the phone,
Steve? Did you --
iI O
STEVE: I, I don't know.
JOHN-3: -- hear it ringing?
V» STEVE: No. In fact, the one that I
use -- I was going to bring a number of people
talk with you today, and I got there with them
the crazy thing wasn't working. So, I - they5
usually
there to
and here
they're working on it and looking at it now. They say
the line is dead. So, they're trying to figure out
what's going on. And then they -- we went up to this,
this phone here and found out that it was dead. So,
I'm kind of surpri-- and that was only minutes ago.
JOHN-3: Steve, what, what's the problem with
it? Do you know?
STEVE: Not yet. He's still working on --
you know, like he - what he's doing, we've got a guy
that's tracing that right from the beginning to see if
it, if it -- the line itself is hot or dead. So, I
told him well, get on it so we can get going with this
thing.
JOHN-3: Steve --
STEVE: I - yeah?
JOHN-3: -- in, in that case, we ought to
keep somebody near each phone, because it's critical
that we keep in contact today.
STEVE: Right .
JOHN-3: Especially today. Okay?
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STEVE: Okay. This is John-3 maybe?
JOHN-3: Yeah, you got it.
STEVE: Okay. Let's see. What happened at
to -- I thought Dolan told me he was going to be on the
phone today?
JOHN~3: He's not around here right now and
they asked me to come in and talk to you. He's
checking some things out with Mr. Jamarin at the
Courthouse.
STEVE: Okay. Yeah, I would like that.
There's a couple things I wanted to ask him still that
we were talking about. So, you know, as soon as he can
let him give me a call, would you?
JOHN-3: Well, I don't know when that's going
to be, Steve, so I think we - you and I will be
talking here for awhile. And --
STEVE: Just, just a minute. Someones
calling me. Just hang on one second.
JOHN-3: All right.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Pardon?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Not
discernible!. '
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Are they --
I'm on the phone. They, they called now. I couldn't
get out because the line's been dead. I went down and
the other phone, it's dead, and even this one was
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picked up five minutes ago and it was dead also. I,
I'm amazed that they got through. I'm talking with
John-3 right now.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Well, what's,
what's happening, you know?
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I don't know.
That's -- they're trying to check it out right now. I
don't have any idea --
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Not
discernible! called in?
STEVE
John?
JOHN-
STEVE
JOHN-
one answered it
somebody --
STEVE
JOHN-
STEVE~0
3
3
3Had you tried to call us before this,
I called a couple times, Steve.
And what happened?
It just rang several times,and no
That's why it's critical that, that
No, I know.
-- be near the phone.
I realize that, John. Just a minute.
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Yeah, he said
he did call a couple times and it just rang, so that
means that there's something up with the lines. I
don't know what
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Not
8
discernible!.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I've got
Graham. He's looking at the other one right now and I
want him to look at this one too, check the line all
the way through to the phone.
STEVE: Yeah, it's strange, because --
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Not
discernible!.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Pardon?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Well, hang up
and try to call -- _
STEVE: All right. Let me - hang up and let
me try to call you, and if I don't call -- if you don't
hear from me in one minute, give me a call back, John.
JOHN-3: All right.
STEVE: Okay. Hang on.
tiiii
JOHN~3:I Hello?
STEVE: Hello. John?
JOHN-3: Yes, Steve.
STEVE: Okay. Well, it's working now. I
don't understand. At least this one is. I don't --
the other one isn't still. And it's in a better
location where I can have more people on the line.
That's why I was hoping to use it. Yeah --
JOHN-3: Steve, when we finish this
O If
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conversation, remind me, I'm going to call you back and
you check it out and see if it comes in. And then if
you don't --
STEVE: Well, why don't -~
JOHN-3: -- get any --
STEVE: -- let's do it right now or -- so I
don't have to worry about at least this phone. Call me
right back and --
JOHN-3: All right.
STEVE: -- and if I don't hear you in, in one
minute, I'm calling you.
JOHN-3: Good enough.
STEVE: Okay. Bye.
JOHN-3: Bye.
iilkii
[Telephone dialed, then ringing.]
JOHN-3: Hello?
STEVE: Hello, John. Steve. Nothing
happened.
JOHN-3: Nothing, huh?
STEVE: Nothing.
JOHN-3: No ring at all?
STEVE: But this - but you called just
minutes ago, right? And they answered the phone,
didn't they?
JOHN-3: Right.
10
STEVE: What is go~- I don't - now, I --
that doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand it.
Okay.
JOHN-3: Well, Steve, why don't we do this.
It's im--
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: -- imperative that we, we keep in
contact with each other. We can either leave the, the
line open today or we can call in every half hour or
every hour.
STEVE: No. dohn, I know -- look, if you
were around last - yesterday and last night and you
heard the dialogue, the rapport, how it's been working,
you know, it's been going great. There's nothing on
either side that, that there's any -- no problems.
we're -- if you would have heard John Cox through the
night and so forth and --
JOHN3: I'm aware of all of that.
STEVE: Okay. Good.
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: GOOd.
JOHN-3: SO - A
STEVE: So, you know, it hasn't changed with
us. So, you know, everythings fine now. You know,
I'm, I'm not going to be jumping on your bandwagon or
anything like that. You know, we're doing the best we
11
can and, and I'm just going to stay right at it. I
went to bed about 4 or S this morning, had a few hours
sleep, and I'm right at it again. So, yQu know, I
mean, like you say it's imperative --
JOHN3: what --
STEVE: -- well, you know, I'm -- we're not
letting up either.
JOHN-3: What's going on in there today,
Steve?
STEVE: Okay. Right today, in fact I think
you're pretty quick, let -- I, I believe there's one or
two coming out right away. So, let me -- I'll even get
their names. I'll, I'll talk --
JOHN-3: Why don't you give them to me right
now so I can tell
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
STEVE:
now, because I --Hang on. I'm leaving
-- these people here
-- the phone. I'm --
remember, now, I just
little bit of sleep here and, and --
JOHN-3:
STEVE:
JOHN3:Okay.
-- all it was --
That's fine.let me check
have -- had a
STEVE: Hang on one -- hang on a second.
JOHN-3:
Pause.!I'll do it.
12
STEVE: Okay. John?
JOHN3: Yes, Steve.
' STEVE: Okay. The ones that are coming out
within minutes will be Rita Riddle and Gladys Ottman.
JOHN3: Gladys Ottman? Can you spell that
for me?
STEVE: I think it's, I think it's OT-T-M-A-
N, I believe. Y
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Isn't it?
STEVE: Yes.
- JOHN3: Okay. Are they - she, she's an
older woman also. Are they U. S. citizens?
STEVE: Rita is and Gladys, I believe, is
from Canada.
JOHN-3: Canada?
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN-3: Okay. 'Is ~- have we had any contact
with her relatives§
STEVE: I don't believe so, from what -- I'm
pretty sure not. I don't think so.
JOHN-3: Okay. y
STEVE: I don't remember -- in fact, I heard
that -- I was told, John, that I was to get back with
you people this morning, which I've been trying to do,
and it was left to us that there were messages left for
individuals here?
C 0
l3
JOHN-3: Yeah. We do have some. I'll try to
get a hold of them, Steve, but --
' STEVE: Okay. Yeah. And, and let me know
who they are, because I'll start getting people
together. I've already got together like Sherry and
Scott. I hear that there were messages for them?
JOHN-3: I, I'm not sure on that, but I'll
get them together and I'll get you an answer here as
soon as I can.
STEVE: So, Dolan, will he be around today
then?
JOHN-3: Steve, John Dolan has expressed to,
to me personally that he would like to be available
when, when all of you come out of there. And --
STEVE: Right. <
JOHN-3: v-- we're going to try to make that
happen, but it has to be soon. Okay?
STEVE: No, no, no. John, you've got --
there's something about you. I -- now, you're okay,
but you're extre-- I don't know if you know it, but you
come across extremely pushy. It doesn't help me. It
honestly doesn't help you._
JOHN-3: Steve, I don't --
STEVE: You -- lis--
JOHN-3: -- mean to be that way.
STEVE: -- listen, you use words like
imperative and, and, and so forth. I -- believe me,14
I'm with you. But, you know, again, if you would have
heard the conversations, if you listen to them, you'll
-- I - we won't have to go through this whole thing
all over again.
JOHN-3: We're going to work this out.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN3: All right?
STEVE: Okay. So, right now --
JOHN3: Me and you.
STEVE: Okay. These two are going to be
coming out and we're talking minutes now.
JOHN3= Okay. You're going to call us and
let us know when they're ready to come out?
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN-3: All right.
STEVE: I'll call --
JOHN3: And you say it's -
STEVE: -- I'll call for sure.
JOHN-3: And I just want to make sure that,
that it's within minutes, Steve.
STEVE: Yes, it is.
JOHN-3: Right?
STEVE: Yes, it is. Because I went and
checked just now and they -- they're getting ready
right now, so that means it won't only take them, you
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know. but just a moment of time here and they'll be
right out the door.
I JOHN-3: Okay. Steve, to help you on your
end --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: -- I've got some names. You got
pen and a piece of paper there?
STEVE: Yes. Let, let me grab -- I do ha
pen.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Would, wou
you give me that pad right there, please? Right by
where the phone was sitting? Thank you.
STEVE: Okay. I got it here. Let's see.
Now to get this pen going. Okay. What do you have
John?a
ve a
ld
JOHN3: And if you have any problems with
the spelling, let me know. Okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: First, let me ask, any of the pe
in there have any health problems right now?
STEVE: Well, you know, Judy, of course.
Scott. I think - well, David.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Is anyone
hereOR have any other kind of health problems that
you're aware of?
STEVE: Did you find out what Vicky'sople
sick
16
condition was, the -- one of the older women that went
out last night? Do you know -- I mean --
JOHN-3: We're, we're going to check on that
and I'll give that for you as soon as I can.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN3: Probably real soon here.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: How about Rita and Gladys? How
about they're health problems?
STEVE: They're both fine. They're both
healthy. They have no problems.
JOHN-3: How old is Gladys?
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: How old is
Gladys? Find out. That's what I'm asking. How old is
Rita? Find out, please.
STEVE: Vou know, a lot of these people I, I
know by first names, so even the last names sometimes
escapes me. I've even -- most of the times I've not
even heard.
JOHNQS: Steve, is she middleaged or --
STEVE: Yeah. Gladys is middle-aged. Rita
is in her 30s. Probably, I, I would guess, anywhere
between 33 to five or six, somewhere in there.
JOHN-3: Okay. And Gladys is middle-aged?
STEVE: Yeah. Yeah. She would be in her
50s, late 50s maybe.
iJOHN-3: Okay. Steve, have you
a piece of paper there?
V STEVE: Yes, I do.17
got a pen and
JOHN-3: Okay. Like -- let's see. How about
cars? Do they have cars?
STEVE: Rita does. She's got a
'84 or '85 Prelude, but I don't know what
is because Friday the tank went into it.
know if it just did cosmetic damage or --
JOHN-3: Okay;-- about an
the condition
So, I don't
it would seem
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: NOt
discernible!.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: They're how
old?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: 35 and not
discernible!.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Oh, really?
STEVE: 35 and 67. So, Rita, of course, is
35 and Gladys is 67.
JOHN-3: Okay. So, Rita's car,
sure whether it's drivable or not?you're not
STEVE: It may, it may be. She --
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: I think she would definitely like to
take it out or use it, if it's possible.
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JOHN-3: Yeah. That's what I was thinking.
We can --
7 STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: -- we can work on that. Okay?
STEVE: Okay. That would be great.
JOHN-3: Okay. Can you tell me where it is
and what color it is?
STEVE: It's a red car and it's -- let's see.
I guess it would be on the south side of the building.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: When you come ar-- when a lot of
times the Bradleys enter the property through that
gate, they come around - it bends around. It's that
corner that's closest to them as they come around the
corner. That --
JOHN-3: Is --
STEVE: -- end of the building. There's --
JOHN3: 'Oh, okay.
STEVE: -- there's a red Prelude right there
by the side of that window, or pretty close.
JOHN-3: All right. All right. When, when
we -- they're ready here. I'll talk to her personally
or you can --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: -- pass the message. Steve, let me
give you these names --
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
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STEVE: All right.
JOHN-3: -- before I forget about it. Okay?
STEVE: Okay. Sure.
JOHN-3: Family members of -- who have called
in, Ursula Gehrmann.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN3: G-E-H-R -
STEVE: Yes. I know who she is even.
JOHN-3: ~ M-ANN.
STEVE: She's from Hawaii.
JOHN-3: Okay.
Oh, butGalenda Ganem, GA~N-E-M.
STEVE: - Belinda?
JOHN3: G-A -- G as in golf.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN3: A, Adam. »
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN-3: L-E-N-D-A. And then the last name
I've got is G-A~N-EM, as in Mike.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: Let's see. The next one is Linda
Campion. _
STEVE: These have ca1l-- I mean,
messages, I, I'm aware, that havesee --
these are come in
already and tapes. Have they brought in more messages?
Is that it or - -
JOHN-3: Some of -- you know, they may be
repeats. I'm not sure, Steve.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3:
personally talked to.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: Is Sue Johnson.
STEVE: That's my sister.
JOHN-3: Right.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN-3:
Steve. q
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: She's concerned about
STEVE: Well, definitely. She
been.
JOHN3: Yeah. And I, I think
yesterday that the attorneys are -- have
reputation. I
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN3: All right? Next one,
YO.
STEVE: Joe Santoya sic!?
JOHN-3: Santoyo.
STEVE: Some-- is that what --
JOHN3: Got it?
STEVE: Yeah.20
The next one is somebody that I've
Right. And she's a very nice woman,
you.
always has
John mentioned
a good
Joe S-A-N-T-O-
I guess so.
JOHN-
STEVE
JOHN-
AN.
STEVE
JOHN-
STEVE
JOHN-
STEVE
they're ~-
JOHN-
check on it --
STEVE
JOHN-
it. All right?
STEVE
JOHN-
STEVE
JOHN-
STEVE
JOHN-
E-G-A?
STEVE
Neil? Okay. H
him.
JOHN-3:
3:
3:
0
I
3,:
3:
3:
3:
1C
3:
3:
is
3:21
Okay. Solomon Malcolm, Junior.
Okay.
Next one, Gloria Hootman, H-O-O-T-M-
Okay. Okay.
Next one, Karen Doyle.
Okay.
The next one, Herman Williams.
Oh, I know who that is now or who
I'm not sure, but we can always
Right.
- Steve, when we have a question on
Okay.
Next one, Denise Johnson.
All right.
Next one, Kim Lambert.
All right.
Okay. Albert Vaega, but it's an A-
Yeah. Neil, your broth-- where's
brother Albert has left a message for
Who is it, Neil Vaega in there?92
1
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STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: Okay. Next one is Ruth Mosher, M-O
SH#E-R.
STEVE: Right. That's Sherri Jewell's
mother.
JOHN-3: Is that Carrie Jewell's mother also?
STEVE: Grandmother.
JOHN-3: Okay. Next one, Michael Sommers.
STEVE: Hmm. Okay.
JOHN-3: Next one is Mary Jones.
STEVE: Just a minute.1
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Could you get
out of the light there? Thank you.
STEVE: Okay. Mary Jones.
JOHN-3: You got that one, Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: Okay. The next one is Samuel Henry.
STEVE: Yeah.
E JOHN-3: Okay. Sharon Clark Kidd, K-1-D~D?
STEVE: K-I-D-D. Okay. Got it.
JOHN~3: All right. And there's another one
here, and I'm not sure if this is a misspell or not,
but it's N-E-S-E is what I've got.
STEVE: N-E-SE. Nese. Oh, yes.
JOHN-3: Vaega.
STEVE: Yep. Okay. Is that it?
J
1~_ ,1
23
JOHN-3: Okay. And then the tapes that have
gone in are your sister's --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN3: Nese's --
STEVE = Right .
JOHN-3: -- Ursula Gehrmann's --
STEVE: Right .
JOHN3: -- Ruth Mosher --
STEVE = Okay. '
JOHN3: -- and Galenda Ganem.
STEVE: Okay. Got it. Okay. So, these --
this other list, this real long list you gave me, are
people that called in? Did they all leave messages?
JOHN-3: Yeah. These are people that - a
list of people who have called or written to date.
STEVE: Okay. Would you know -- I was told
by one - yourself or one of you - I can't remember.
It's so long ago, I mean, in time, the way it passes.
I was told that a, a -- an acquaintance of mine or a
friend of mine from the University of Hawaii called for
me. His name was David Sheidler.
JOHN-3: I remember that call
STEVE: You do?
JOHN-3: -- Steve, but I'm, I'm not sure --
STEVE: Did you take -- or did you take the
call yourself?
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24
JOHN-3: No, I didn't, but I remember it
being discussed.
STEVE: Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah, the reason I
was wondering, I was still trying to figure out, you
know, when I come out if there's a way -- did he leave
a phone number, if I could contact him of, of any way
or -- '
JOHN-3: We can work on it, Steve. You know,
you'll --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN-3: -- be able to call him anyhow.
STEVE: Really?
JOHN-3: You know that and I --
STEVE: Not if I .-
JOHN-3: -- know that.
STEVE: -- not if I don't have a phone
number. I mean, I don't know -- I --
JOHN-3: iWe'll --
STEVE: -- can I --
JOHN-3: -- we'll get it for you.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN-3: All right?
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: Steve, when Rita and Gladys come
out --
STEVE: I'm going to give you a call.
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JOHN-3: Well, no. I just want to explain --
STEVE : Okay.
JOHN-3: -- this to you.
STEVE: All right,
JOHN-3: when they come out, drive to the end
of the driveway.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: Okay? And go straight across that
road out there,
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: And just park right across the road.
STEVE: Like in -- like go across the road
into the, the property that's across the road. Is that
what you're saying?
JOHN3: You got it. .
STEVE: All right.
it JOHN-3: On the left side as they're heading
up that way. N
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: Okay? So, they just --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN-3: -- drive up, go across the road, and
just park on the left. And they'll instruct them the
same way as we have before.
STEVE: Okay. Very good.
JOHN-3: All right. Now, it's got to be
KU Q
26
pretty quick, because we're going to call them in to,
C0--
V STEVE: Right. Yes.
JOHN-3: Hold on one second.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: Hold on one --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN-3: - second, Steve. I'm just getting
a message here.
STEVE: Okay.
Pause.! ,
JOHN-3: Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN-3: What they just told me is have her
drive to the normal pickup spot. Do you know where
that is? I haven't been out there so --
STEVE: I believe --
JOHN-3: '-- I don't know where it is.
STEVE: -- I believe it's by -- I think
they've been dropping things off inside the complex
area -- I mean, inside the gate by a tree on the left,
I think right up th-- in that area. So, they have --
JOHN-3;_ Okay.
STEVE: -- to drive right about there and
stop maybe --
JOHN-3: Yeah. And, and there will be a
vehicle there. Okay?
waiting.
when they're about ready to go out the door and get in
the car th
Steve, you
they're going to - I -- it's almost apparent now that
she's not going to be able to use the car. I guess
there has been transmission damage from the -- youSTEVE: Okay. Their vehicle already will be
JOHN3:
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
STEVE: And I, and I will call you right back
en.
JOHN-3:
've got
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
STEVE:
JOHN3:
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
STEVE:
JOHN3:
STEVE:Right.
Okay.
Okay?
Because of this phone problem,
to --
Yeah.
-- call me right back. Okay?
I, I will.
Okey-doke.
Okay.
Bye.
:98 .
¢¢***
Hello?
Hello. John?
Yes. Steve?
Yeah, they're having -- I think
28
know, it being shoved around and I think that car is
inoperable.
' JOHN-3: Steve, are -- is there any other car
that she could drive out of there?
STEVE: It, it -- you know, they're so shot-
up full of bullet holes. They got flat tires. The one
that they were using in the beginning, say back a
couple weeks ago, that's one out of gas. Even it has,
you know, the window, it, it's actually -- you know,
it's got glass all over the seats. How about if they
-- I guess, that they just walk out wherever that --
you know, would be acceptable?
JOHN-3: They both can walk all right --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: -- Steve?
STEVE: They can. They can.
JOHN- 3 = Okay.
STEVE: Even though the ones 67, she's
healthy and, you know, they take walks. They used to
take walks daily. So, yeah, they're okay.
JOHN-3: Okay. Why don't we have them do the
same thing. Are they ready to go out now?
STEVE: Yeah. They're -- in fact, they're
pretty near the door. I was still up here talking to a
couple more people, so I didn't realize that they were
already apparently at the door. Maybe they were going
1
2
3
4
5 .
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
2529
to get something to drink, but other than that they are
ready to come out and walk up to the gate or whatever
they could do.
JOHN-3: Okay. Can you just check on that?
See if, if they're ready to go out the -~
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: -- door. Leave, leave us on the
hook here together.
STEVE: Okay. Hang on then and I'll -- and
I'm still hoping that we can get the other phone going,
because it's, it's closer to that door. So --A
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: Hang on a minute.
JOHN-3: All right.
Pause.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello?
JOHN-3: Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hi. Steve has
the phone working downstairs now. You can talk to him
on that phone. Okay?
JOHN-3: Okay. Now, is -- could you just ask
him to call me from that phone? -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: To call you?
JOHN-3: Yeah. '
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.
JO!-INF 3 = Okay?
O O
30
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I'll, I'll hang
it up. Okay.
' JOI-IN- 3 = Okeydoke .
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay. Bye.
JOHN-3: Bye.
iiiii
STEVE: John?
JOHN-3: Yes, Steve?
STEVE: Yeah, I've got a new line here
apparently. The other one is - for some unknown
reason, it's totally dead. He tried to check
everything on it, so we can't just pick up the phone
anymore. I just had to dial out. But it's okay. The
two women, they're ready to come out the door now.
JOHN-3: Okay. Same as, same as before,
Steve.
STEVE; Yeah.
JOHN-3: [And --
STEVE: I'll keep -~ are the -- so, the
Bradleys will come about halfway? Is that the idea or
JOHN-3: Yeah, the, the same way that Brad
and Kevin and --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: -- the others were. Okay?
STEVE: Okay. So, they'll come driving up.
,-O I
31
As soon as they do, the two women will come walking
out .
JOHN-3: Yeah. That's --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: - fine.
STEVE: Okay. They're ready.
JOHN-3: Okay. And Steve --
STEVE: Yeah?
JOHN-3: -- what'll -- I'll do is, as soon as
they're, they're in, in the Bradley and as soon as
they're okay - , l
STEVE = Okay.
JOHN-3: -- I'll give you a buzz right back.
STEVE: Thank you.
JOHN-3: And you -- what, what number?
STEVE: I don't know what the number is here.
JOHN-3: But I mean what phone?
STEVE: Oh, I think it's 5979 is what it used
to be. I don't know what it might be now.
JOHN-3: Yeah, but, I mean, whose phone are
you on?
STEVE: Wayne Martin's.
JOHN-3: Wayne's.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: Okay.
,»32
JOHN-3: Good enough.
STEVE: Talk to you when you call.
JOHN-3: Okey-doke.
STEVE: Thank you.
J01-IN~3: Bye.
STEVE: Bye-bye.
iiiii
JOHN-3: Hello?
STEVE: Hello, John?
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: Yeah.~ I just was told that - to
make a correction here. I guess the number was 863-
5252, whatever line that would be now. I'm not sure.
JOHN3: Okay. We'll figure it out, Steve.
STEVE: Okay. Thanks.
JOHN-3: But, but, listen, if you --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: -- stand right by there, I'll, I'll
call you right back --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN-3: - and we'll make sure it's working
STEVE: Verify -
JOHN-3:< Hold on -- hold, hold on one second
STEVE: Sure.
Pause.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: -- out what his
O I
33
number is.
JOHN-3: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah?
JOHN-3: Are you on Wayne's old phone or did
you bring another phone down -- cord down?
STEVE: Well, you mean the phone itself or
the line?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The line.
JOHN-3: The line. -
STEVE: The line, it's - see, there were
always two in here. One was called 5252. The other
was S979.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: And, apparently, one of them for -- I
don't know. It went dead totally. And, so, what he
did is pull the other cord, stuck it into the phone,
and it's now working, but it doesn't dial directly ~-
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: -- when you pick it up anymore, I
guess.
JOHN-3: Okay. Steve, let me just make sure
I can ring you now -- ~
STEVE: Okay. I'll be right ~-
JOHN3: -- so that --
STEVE: -- by the phone right now.
JOHN-3: Stand right by the phone, okay?
minute, I'll call
okay?STEVE:
JOHN~3
STEVE:
JOHN3
STEVE:
JOHN~3
STEVE:
JOHN~3
[Telephone dialed, then ringing ]Okay.
And then --
I'll do so. And if I --
And then --'34
- don't hear from you within a
you back.
Within two minutes call me back,
Okay. Very good.
All right.
iiiii
STEVE: Hello, John.
JOHN~3= Steve. Phone check.
STEVE: It works.
JOHN-3: All right. So, we got a - we got
some communications. I'll call you. Send them out and
I'll call you as
STEVE;
JOHN-3
STEVE:
JOHN3
STEVE:soon as they're, they're up the road.
Okay. Sounds good.
All right.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye-bye
JOHN-3: Hello?
STEVE: Hello. John?iiiii
35
JOHN-3: Yes, Steve?
STEVE: So, what's happening?
JOHN-3: Are they out yet?
STEVE: The women have been waiting, but
there's no vehicle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Oh --
JOHN-3: No. Have them walk out there,
Steve, and then the vehicle is going to come up.
STEVE: Oh, okay. I thought you were --
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: You said like the -- see, what
they've been doing is they've had the vehicle come
halfway and then they go out to them. That's why when
you said just like with Kevin and Brad, but so --
JOHN-3
STEVE:
Brad.
JOHN-3
STEVE:
walk halfway out
JOHN-3
. STEVE:
JOHN-3
STEVE:
JOHN-3
STEVE:I
0
0Yeah.
-- see, that's not like Kevin and
Yeah.
Okay. So, you want them to what,
then, and then the Bradley --
Hold --
-- will meet them?
Hold on one second, Steve.
All right.
I'll get this confirmed and --
All --
36
JOHN-3: -- then we'll start from here.
Okay?
STEVE: All right.
JOHN-3: Hang on.
Pause.!
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: That's the way
I see it also.
Pause.!
JOHN-3: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah?
JOHN3: Just have them walk out there and
the Bradley will meet them. Okay?
STEVE: Okay. So, just keep on walking until
the --
JOHN-3: .Yeah.
STEVE: -- Bradley kind of -- okay. All
right. Yeah.
JOHN-3: Okay?
s'r1:v1=:= Yeah. '
JOHN3: There won't be any problems. And
when I call you back, we'll get working on some others.
STEVE = Okay.
JOHN-3: All right?
STEVE: Talk to you then.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: Bye.
I
92
/
92C I
37
iiiti
[Telephone dialed, then ringing.]
[Gap.]
JOHN-3:. Hello? Hello?
[Telephone dialed, then ringing.]
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN-3: Hello.
STEVE: Hello. Strange connection here.
JOHN-3: I know it, Steve. What went on?
Is, is that at your end?
STEVE: Could, could you hear me, when I was
saying hello, hello, hello?
' JOHN-3: No, I couldn't.
STEVE: Oh, okay.
JOHN-3: _Yeah. I didn't get anyth-1 that's
why I hung up and dialed again, Steve.
STEVE: I see. Okay. So, they're apparently
down there now or --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
srsvs: Okay.
JOHN-3: They just called me. It went
smooth. No problem. -
STEVE: Great.
JOHN-3: All right?
STEVE: That sounds good.
JOHN-3: Okay.
38
STEVE: I just wanted -- I was talking to
David. I don't know if you realize, but he was up all
through the entire night right in through the morning,
and the guy is totally wiped out. And what I'm doing
right now, I'm just going to get a bite to eat. I
haven't eaten yet today, and I only had one meal
yesterday. But, anyway, I'm going to be eating now and
I'm going to continue -- I just started talking with a
number of people, because, you know, they've got
interest now and we're, we're starting to get this
thing going. ~ Q
JOHN-3: That's great --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: -- Steve.
STEVE: And what it -- and if you can, so I
don't have to repeat it, if you can kind of remember if
you got to get briefed by John Cox -- you know, these
people are wanting to be confirmed in what they've
looked at. They've got still some pretty strong
questions. You know, not about the political arena or
anything of that nature. It's, you know, it's their
souls and how -- and looking at the Bible and God's
word and is, rue, you know. We're, we're
repeating foundational beliefs and things of that
nature. So --
JOHN-3: Okay. Steve?
STEVE: Yeah?39
JOHN-3: Listen. I just want to be able --
if they come up with questions
here --
STEVE:
JOHN-3: You know.
STEVE:
what I'll do is
you talk to them.
JOHN-3
STEVE: Okay. ~
JOHN-3
STEVE; All right.
JOHN-3: And I'm not
I just want to --
STEVE: Oh, right.
JOHN-3: -- you know,
STEVE: If you have,
anything like that, you let me
put, I'll put on anybody that,regarding the system out
Okay. I'll --
-- refer them to you. I'll tell --
-- how about me -- that I call and let
Would that help?
: That would be fine.
: I'll talk to any one of them.
going to mislead them.
assure them that --
too, any new messages or
know. You know, I'll
you know, that messages
or anything of that nature comes through for, you know.
Or if they have any questions,
stick them on the phone, whichI'll call you and, and
may be even today, you
know. Different ones are starting to talk to me again
and I'll just make a list and jot down a few things and
I'll tell them they can call you. They don't ev--
5 I
40
well, they always know they don't need me, of course,
but they, they get the feeling that, you know, I have
a, a rapport with you individuals. So.
JOHN-3: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, Steve,
I, I'm of the same opinion as, as John Dolan and John
Cox. They're both good friends of mine and we can work
this out today and it'll be a good day.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: All right? And we'll get some
people out and everybody will be happy. Okay? Are
other ready, ready to go now? '
STEVE: Just one minute. No, there aren't.
In fact, I see David. He's laying down right now and,
and there's a few that want to talk to him still. So,
he has to open up a few things to them to answer some
of their questions. So, I just -- give it a little
rest now for just a few moments. I'm going to eat.
I'm going to be talking to them more so that they can
be prepared, and then he's going to be talking to them.
And it could be more. I don't even know who. I know
that right now he's not sleeping yet, but he himself
is, is talking to individuals even now.
JOHN3: David is?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: Oh, okay.
STEVE: So, he --
O I
41
JOHN-3: That's good.
_ STEVE: -- so he -- so, he hasn't had any --
remember, he hasn't been to sleep now for -- and, and,
you know, in his condition --
JOHN-3: I know you're working on it, Steve,
and --
STEVE: I'll tell you the truth --
JOHN-3: -- and we're going to --
STEVE: -- I'm worn out. I mean, I went to
bed like -- if, if you heard John, he -- the poor guy
was up for quite a long time with us, and I finally
went to bed. It was near 5:00.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: Okay. Just one second, John. I, I
-- someone's asking me a question, so I'll, I'll --
hang on the line just a minute here.
JOHN-3: iAll righty.
Pause.!
STEVE: John?
JOHN-3: Yo.
STEVE: Yeah, there's, there's a major
request here, and that's the men -- see, we're -- as a
body -- as people that believe in the giglg, we're,
we're -- believe it or not, contrary to rumors and all
that, we're extremely modest, even when it comes to
dress and all the rest. And we're concerned because we
O I
42
observed, as when the women Rita and Gladys, because
it's daytime, went out there, that they were frisked
over. -
JOHN-3: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Do you have FB-- female FBI agents
that could --
JOHN-3: That's correct. We do.
STEVE: You do have?
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: Because any -- from -- in the future,
if we send out women, could they --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: -- take care of that?
JOHN-3: Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN-3: They're -- women are searched by a
female agent. Okay?
STEVE: Okay. So, then -- but we saw --
JOHN-3: That -- but - you know what, in
that stuff that they have on, you couldn't tell and I
couldn't tell. I'll tell you that.
STEVE: Right. But, no, we noticed a man,
though, a, a male --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: -- that was going over both of the
females out front, so that's what our concern is. If
you have a --
that?
there.JOHN-3
STEVE:
JOHN-3
STEVE:
JOHN3
STEVE:
JOHN-3
STEVE:
JOHN-3
STEVE:
JOHN3
hour maybe?Yeah.
-- a female F
Yep. There
Okay. Good.
Okay?
Thank you.
All right --
And I'll be -
-- Steve.
-- talking to
Listen, we'l43
BI agent that could do
s, there's one out
you in awhile.
l get going in about an
I
STEVE: Hopefully. But, you know, it -- I
don't know for sure. But, you know, let me - because
I'm going to be talking, you know. I'm, I'm already
tired and
keep --hoarse, but I'm not going to quit.
JOHN-3: All right. You keep working. I'll
STEVE: I have. g
JOHN-3: -- working.
STEVE: I am.
JOHN-3: All right?
STEVE: Okay. I'll --
JOHN-3: We'll get it going.
STEVE: -- talk to you in awhile. Okay
Bye.
JO!-IN3: Bye.
itii
End of Tape #149!44
I Q
TM/5 150
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #150
3/21/93
11:27 A.M. - 3:57 P.M.
Tape 150!
JOHN-3: Hello?
STEVE: Hello. John?
JOHN-3: Yes, Steve?
STEVE: Yeah. Could you do me a favor?
Right now David, he hasn't gone to sleep yet, and he's
trying to talk to a few more people to move them out
yet today. In fact, we're, we're planning on doing
that as soon as possible.
JOHN-3: That's great, Steve.
STEVE: And, well, the problem is, though,
he's, he's trying to talk to them and he, he's being
drowned out by the tape that's being played over the
speaker. Is it possible you could have it turned down
a little bit?
JOHN-3: We'll send somebody to, to see what
they have -- hold on just one second.
STEVE: Okay. Sure.
JOHN3: All right?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: Hang on.
Pause.!
JOHN-3: Steve?
STEVE: Yes?
JOHN-3: That's -- we're going to check on
that, but they just wanted to know what numbers we're2
O O
3
talking, and I --
STEVE: Well, I know right now he's got -- I
just walked in by his - you know, he's in a real small
room. He's always laying in bed, because that one day
that he got up to talk to Byron --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: - he started bleeding again, so he's
not been up since then.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: But he's laying in a, in a small room
and he's got three people in there. So, I know at
least two are coming out, and, and probably three. And
he's trying to get as many as he can there. It's
difficult for him. But that's who he's working with
right now. .
JOHN-3: Yeah. I understand you're working
hard in there, Steve. The boss wanted to know though.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: Okay?
STEVE: Okay. I'll keep I'll try to keep
you posted as much as possible. In fact, let me give
you some even names, and I'll, I'll get back to try and
get more information on them, because I - remember
now, I don't -- I know, you know, the faces --
JOHN3: Okay.
STEVE: -- and a lot of times first names,QR?
_n¬_
CC
2
-»=_v-
.».
~.=
..,
_-~.-
-<.=
~=-*.§
e
id
but --
JOHN-3: Okay. Give us what you think and
then --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: - we'll go on from there.
STEVE: Ophelia, Ophelia.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: what's her
last name?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Santoyo.
STEVE: Santoyo.
JOHN-3: Okay,
STEVE: Ophelia Santoyo. And then there is
James Lawter. James Lawter is --
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: How old would
James be?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Not
discernible!.
STEVE: Mid-60s, anyway. But I'll find out.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: And She,
Ophelia, how old would she be, in her 50s, six
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Not
discernible!. -
STEVE: About mid5Os, I would guess.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: And, and there's a possibility of
another person. I'm not sure, but I saw her sitting
5
and I just haven't talked to her myself, but David must
have -- or she might have come in on her own. Her name
is -P well, what's oh, Sheila Martin.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: But I'm not certain now. You know,
but I'm giving that name anyway, but I'll let you know
for a fact about her. But the other two I'm sure
about.
JOHN-3: Approximate age on Sheila?
STEVE: Ah -- boy, let's see. I would guess,
I would guess about 40 2- late 30s or about 40,
somewhere in there.
V JOHN-3: Okay. How do you spell Lawter's
last name, Steve?
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: How do you
spell Lawter's last name?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Not
discernible!. I
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: L-A-W-T-E~R?
Okay.
STEVE: Lawter, I guess, is the --
JOHN-3: Okay. Because you sounded like L-A-
U-D-E-R.
STEVE: I, I -- tell you the truth, I always
thought it was.
JOHN-3: Okay.
I/>¬%ea
6
STEVE: Just like you, I thought that's what
the spelling was.
JOHN-3: Okey-doke. Anybody else that --
STEVE: At the moment, I know that, you know,
like myself, I'm talking to quite a few people here,
and then I'm trying to encourage them to get over to
David. And, so, you know, it's quite a process.
JOHN3: Yeah.
STEVE: And if the room was larger, if he
could speak a little louder -- but he's, he's tired and
hoarse. But, you know, he's trying to talk to as many
as he can handle here. Because they've got questions
always and, you know, the same old thing there.
JOHN-3: Okay. Hold on one second.
STEVE: Yeah.
Pause.!
JOHN3: Steve?
STEVE: Yes?
JOHN3: I ain't pushing you, you know that.
But I do --
STEVE: Oh, okay. _
JOHN-3: And I appreciate everything you're
doing in there. But what I want to do is, if you could
just tell me, does it look like any more today might --
STEVE: I --
JOHN-3: -- be coming out?
7
STEVE: In honesty, I don't know. I --
because, you know, I'm always concerned -- I wished he
had a lot more energy, because, you know, I mean, I
wish he could handle more people. I -- what I'm doing
is talking to people all over the place. And some are
choosy. You know, they all, a lot of them want to talk
to him, they've got questions about the giblg still,
and, you know, things of --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: -- that nature. You've got to
remember, a lot of those that came here, if not the
majority, came to learn the giglg, and also now that's
been disrupted a number of weeks ago.
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: And all the more so now, they're
concerned because they never have another chance or
whatever. But, you know, so that's, that's what kind
of causing it to be slower than maybe a person -- even
myself. You know, I'd like to see it done and all the
rest.
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: So, I'll just keep right on talking
and talking and talking.
JOHN-3: Okay, Steve. Listen. You know, if,
if --
STEVE: If I know anything, though, I'll, you
know, leave you a note as, as quickly as possible.
JOHN-3: Yeah. Here's the thing, Steve. If
you can give me an approximate time when those people
will be out, and then they said that they would check
on the speakers and --
STEVE: Well, let, let me get
JOHN3: -- and then we'll be
STEVE: Well, let me get back
because I, you know, just myself got --
them, they're going to his room to talk
JOHN-3: Yes.,
STEVE: Then there was a third in there.
See, I didn't know about her.
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: So, that's why I still don't know,
that they're just in there now talking.
have a time yet. But as soon as I know
don't think it will be too long, but as
anything, I'll let you -- I'll come right back to
phone and let you know.
JOHN-3: Yeah. Steve, how, how -- le-
know, the -- they -- if we.can give them some8
back --
all set.
on you on that,
the two of
with him.
So, I, I don't
anything, and I
soon as I know
the
you Y
significant number, you know, that they'll turn the
speakers off and then we'll be able to - 92
STEVE: Oh, no. I mean --
JOHN-3: -- get going --
9
STEVE: -- it's that -- no, it's just -- no.
Understand, this has nothing to do with bargaining,
negotiations. '
JOHN-3: No. I, I realize that.
STEVE: We're, we're doing it anyway.
JOHN-3: I realize that.
STEVE: It's just that -- let me just tell
you this. It'll just -- once -- because the speakers
are so loud, they can't hear him talk. He's competing
against the speaker.
JOHN-3: Yeah,, I got --
STEVE: So, what's going to happen is it'll
just take longer for them to come out --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: -- for him to be heard. That's --
so, it's up to you what you want to do. If you want to
-- I mean, if you want to leave it on loud, it's just
that it'll -- "
JOHN-3: No. Listen. This isn't coming from
me. Don't shoot the messenger.
STEVE: No, no, no.
JOHN-3: Okay? . _
STEVE: I just wanted to -- you know. I
mean, I -- you know, it has nothing to do with my
feelings or --
JOHN3: Yeah.
0 O
10
STEVE: -- you know, I'm just telling you,
you know, is --
l JOHN-3: Because we're going to -- we're,
we're going to keep working with you, Steve.
STEVE: Exactly. Exactly, John.
JOHN-3: You know that. Okay.
STEVE: I'm just trying to let you know what
his problem is. You know, he just said to me let them
know I'm having a real hard time. It's hard to talk
because I'm being drowned out.
JOHN-3: Yeah. '
STEVE: So, I just says okay, I'll let, I'll
let them know, and, and I, I, I was in there myself. I
realized it was a problem. It's real -- it's a very --
you know, it draws the attention away. And we don't --
you know, you can play it -- like we said, we don't
mind what tapes are played anyway. It's --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: -- never bothered us for that.
JOHN-S: Okay. Yeah. That --
STEVE: Other, other --
JOHN-3: -- that's not the issue.
STEVE: -- other than that, John, I wouldn't
even mind hearing your voice on a tape. I mean, if we
didn't have to hear the same one with Byron over and
over. Nothing against Byron --
ll
JOHN-3: We'll --
STEVE: -- but --
JOHN-3: We'll, we'll be talking all day
today, Steve. All right?
STEVE: Okay. Okay.
JOHN-3: Okay. But how, how long do you want
the speakers off so that he can talk to them? That's
what --
STEVE: Well, you don't even --
JOHN-3: -- they're asking me.
STEVE: -- have to have them off, if you
want. Just so they're turn, turned -- I mean, because
people can still hear, hear them, even if they're
turned down. It's just that they're so loud that he
can't really communicate too well.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: That, that's all. If you have the
ability to turn the volume down, that would be fine
even.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: Or, or if you want to turn them off
for just a couple hours. I think what he's going to do
is just continue to talk to people.
JOHN3: Okay.
STEVE: So, the more he talks to people, the
more that are going to be coming out. That's really
12
what's been happening.
JOHN3: And, Steve, again, if anybody has
any questions or anything that - any fears that we can
allay --
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
STEVE:
of things even on
that - you know,Okay.
-- you'll let me know and you'll --
I will.
-- put them on with me? y
Sure.
All right.
I will: Sure. I, I posted a number
the wall already and had told them
gave the message out that those --
those that have contacted, left messages, I put all
those names where
JOHN-3:
STEVE:
that opportunity,
JOHN~3:
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
we'll, we'll keep
STEVE:
Jo:-m-3 :
STEVE:
as soon as I knowthey could see it. So, you know --
Okay.
- I told them that they always have
of course.
Okay. Maybe we can get --
Okay.
- something significant going and
on working on it.
That's what we're working on.
All right.
I'll, I'll be getting back with you
IHOYB .
got --JOHN-3: All right, Steve.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: Bye.
STEVE: Talk to you later. Bye.
JOHN3: Bye.
[Telephone
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER 1:
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER 2:
[Telephone
[Telephone
[Telephone
[Telephone
[Telephoneiiii
dialed, then busy signal.!
Busy?
Busy.
dialed, then busy signal.!
dialed, then busy signal.!
dialed, then busy signal.!
dialed, then busy signal.!
dialed, then busy signal.!13
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: YOU gOt -- hefs
[Telephone
[Telephone
[Telephone
[Telephonedialed, then busy signal.!
dialed, then busy signal.!
dialed, phone company recording.!
dialed, then ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Is it working?
JOHN-3: Hello? Hello?
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN3: Hello.
STEVE: Oh, it's -- what -- it's strange.
I'm - here I'm trying to call out and I - all of a
9 Q
' 14
sudden I hear my name on the loudspeaker.
, JOHN-3: We must be picking the phone up at
the same time or something, Steve.
STEVE: That's what it could be.
JOHN-3: I tried a few times --
STEVE: I can't hear you too well, John,
though. So I don't know why, but it's, it's the
worst connection I've had. E
JOHN-3: Yeah. Same here.
STEVE: Well, you can't hear me either too
well? , H
JOHN-3: No. Hold on one second.
srnvs: All right .
JOHN-3: Is that better?
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: It's a little better. Still not like
we had before, but I, I've got a confirmation of the
three names that I gave you, are so, and they're going
to be coming out in minutes.
JOHN3: Okay. A
STEVE: And let me go through the names
again. There, there was, of course, you've got them,
James Lawter, and he's 70 years old.
JOHN3: Okay.
STEVE: And there's Ophelia Santoy-- San-
15
what, what do we have? Santoyo. And she is 62.
JOHN3: Okay.
STEVE: And then there's Sheila Martin, who
just turned 46.
minutes,
three of
together
ready to
when we
whatever
another
they pla
truth of
radio hiJOHN-3: Okay. And they'll be coming out in
Steve?
STEVE: They'll be coming out in minutes.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: In fact, now David's talking to all
them and they're getting their things
. And I'll call you just about when they're
come to the door or when you - you know,
start getting the Bradley back in this area, or
JOHN-3: Okay. And I just --
STEVE: And, by the way, David had a --
reguest -- or another statement. You know,
yed that Paul Harvey bit about the nebula. The
the matter is David never did hear it on the
mself directly. He had told me before anything
came out in the news, this is the truth, he had told me
about a
what it
me of a
night I
been atstar - and he didn't tell me, though, about
was shaped like or anything, but he told, told
star coming through the Milky Way. And the
brought it up to John Cox, I think it must have
least a week ago Friday, it was John that then
told me about the16
oustog Qhrggiglg, about an article
in there that he had noticed or was aware of. Well,
that -- I was quite surprised, because of what David
already had told me himself. But he had not heard it
on the radio. So, he just wanted to make sure that
Byron or whoever else was mentioning -- giving the
information, that's actually the way it came.
JOHN-3:
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
STEVE:
something?
JOHN-3:Okay. Steve, I--
Huh?
You have a, you have a question or
No. I just, I just wanted to
mention. I just tried to call you a few times --
STEVE:
JOHN-3:Okay.
-- to ask about the speakers, and I
got a busy signal. So, I don't know if it was off hook
or --
STEVE: I think maybe I was on, trying to get
a hold of you, because I've been dialing for about the
last five minutes
JOHN3:
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
STEVE:maybe?
Huh. .
It's the weirdest thing. I picked it
Well --
-- up and it was kind of like dead.
17
I put it back down. It seemed to ring, and then I
heard some clicking. But then it went, it went back to
the --
JOHN3: Yeah.
_ STEVE: ~- dial tone
JOHN-3: Well, like
from me for -- you know, in a0
I say, if you don't hear
-- every few minutes --
STEVE: I think - I've got the other phone
also, John. So, I can always
that one is working too.
JOHN-3: 0kay., Andgo down there, because
-- what, are the speakers
down? I asked them if they would do that.
STEVE: Yes. They, they weren't down until
Byron's voice came back on. Then it was quite loud
again. But, you know, he was
talking with them anyhow.
JOHN3: Okay.
STEVE: Eut, but it
mean, see how much quicker it
you can communicate. It does
JOHN-3: We'll keep
smsvm Okay. .
JOHN-3: All right,
s'r1:vn= Okay. I ' 11
here in just minutes even.
JOKE-3: 0keydoke.actually almost over
did help. You know, I
can go when, you know,
help.
working on it.
Steve.
be calling you right back
O O
18
STEVE: Okay. And I'm, I'm -- but I tell you
what, I'm keeping on talking myself around here. So.
' JOHN-3: Yeah. A
STEVE: Okay. I'll be at it. I'll talk to
you momentarily.
JOHN-3: All right.
STEVE: Okay. Bye.
JOHN-3: Bye.
iiiti
JOHN-3: Hello?
STEVE: Hello. John?
JOHN-3: Yes, Steve?
STEVE: Yeah. They're about -- get --
they're getting ready now. They're going to be coming
out the door. One major request from Sheila Martin.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: She's got three children on the
outside. There's Daniel -- little Daniel. I think
he's my - like six years old. He's - there's Kimmy.
I think she's four. And then there's also Jamie. She
wants to know what happened to him, where he might be.
Jamie's the one that ha-- is handicapped.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: And she wants to have it clear --
she'd like to at least see them when she comes out. Is
there any problems with that?
19
JOHN-3: I'll do everything I can.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: Okay?
STEVE: Can you let, can you let me know
ahead of time?
JOHN-3: It -- hold on just one
STEVE: Okay. Thank you.
JOHN-3: All right?
STEVE: Yeah. Because that --
JOHN-3: Go ahead, Steve.
STEVE: Okay., So, what --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: Are your checking --
JOHN-3: Listen --second.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: - we're going to call Child
Protective Services and we will arrange that. Okay?
STEVE: That will be done then?
JOHN-3: Yep.
STEVE: Okay. And, then, maybe
have her call back after she has seen the
Wayne Martin can speak with you or, or --
JOHN-3: Speak with her?
STEVE: Yeah, just to make sure
and that the children are okay.
JOHN-3: I don't see a problem.you could
children and
I mean her.
she's there
-
20
STEVE: Okay. Real good, John.
JOHN-3: Hey --
STEVE: Yeah?
JOHN-3: -- Steve?
STEVE: Yeah?
JOHN-3: Listen, we got a lot of people here
running around, but I just wanted to mention to you one
thing.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN3: when they come out, -- the Bradley
is there right now. Okay? A
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN3: And when they --
STEVE: You mean they're right in the bend of
our road maybe or -+
JOHN-3: well, just have them do - the word
I'm getting is have them do the same thing that the two
did just awhile ago. Okay?
STEVE: Okay. Just kind of like walk out
there and the Bradley will probably come forward maybe
or ,
JOHN-3: You got it.
STEVE: A11 right.
JOHN-3: You got it. Okay?
STEVE: Okay. Sure.
JOHN-3: And there's, there's a --
I O
21
STEVE: So, they're actually ready their--
themselves.
JOHN-3: One thing, are there any medical
difficulties with these people, any medical problems?
STEVE: James is -- let's see. He's 70.
He's missing one eye. He doesn't have the best
eyesight. He seems -- they all seem to be healthy.
They're all okay. I don't believe there's any medical
problems that --
JOHN-3: But they can all walk --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: -- unassisted --
STEVE: They -- yeah --
JOHN-3: -- and everything?
srnvm Right.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: The bad thing is, you know, is these
Bradleys are, morning, noon, and night, even in the
nighttime, since it's rained they're running around
here. It's so tore up and full of mud --
JOHN-3:. Yeah.
STEVE: -- that the ueople are having
difficulty --
JOHN-3: With the footing?
STEVE: Ye-- exactly.
JOHN-3: Yeah. Okay.
.¢-92__ 4 .__
22
STEVE: It, it's extremely muddy. So, even
with their footwear and all the rest, so these -- the
guys inside the Bradleys are always telling them well,
come on through here and so forth. I mean, they mean
well, but, you know, they, they got to take a little --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: -- time getting out there.v
JOHN-3: Yeah. Okay.
STEVE: It, it is really bad footing.
JOHN-3: Okay, Steve.
STEVE: Okay.~ 1'11, 1'11, 1'11, 1'11 be
sending them out in --
JOHN-3: Let me ask you, will they be --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: -- carrying - they're going to
carry some belongings with them or --
STEVE: I think most --
JOHN-3: -- their gibles?
STEVE: - of them have been told by David --
he's not into -- he says that they'll take care of them
when they get there.
JOHN-3: Yeah. V
STEVE: So, he's trying to encourage a lot of
them --
JOHN-3: Okay. _
STEVE: -- don't take --
r
/O O
23
JOHN-3: And, like I say, if they need any
assurances on, on treatment and things like that, we'll
be all set, and I'll, I'll make those assurances to
them. But if they're ready to go -- let's see. Go to
the Bradley. That's what I got.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: Go right --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: - to the Bradley.
STEVE: Will do that.
JOHN-3: Same as before.
STEVE: But --
JOHN-3: Okay?
STEVE: -- at this time there's going to be a
woman agent to frisk Sheila and Ophelia then, right?
JOHN-3: Hold on --
STEVE: All right .
JOHN-3: '-- one second.
Pause.!
JOHN-3: Women officers will do the search is
what I'm told.
STEVE: Okay. So, just --
JOHN-3: All right?
STEVE: -- so it'll be -- in the past, you
know, like the first step when they get into the
Bradley, it's been men doing that.
24
JOHN-3: Yeah. Okay.
STEVE: SO --
JOHN-3: Well, yeah -- Steve --
STEVE: Yeah?
JOHN-3: That is just a pat-down just to make
sure that they have no weapons.
STEVE: Okay. So, they're not going to --
JOHN-3: It's -- procedure.
STEVE: -- touch - they won't be touch-
JOHN-3: No. No. -
STEVE: Well, see, the whole thing is -- you
know, I mean, it, it -- the -- really, their, --
they're concerned about having men touching the women
anyway in the first place.
JOHN-3: Yeah. I understand that.
STEVE: So, if you -- I mean, after this, you
know, if any more women come out, if you can have an
FBI agent in the tank for even doing that --
JOHN-3: Well, I -- hold on one second.
STEVE: I mean, that, that'll be a major
problem. It will be.
JOHN-3: Yeah. Okay.
STEVE: It will slow things down immensely.
JOHN-3: Hold on one second.
Pause.!
JOHN3: Steve?
,25
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: We'll work on that and we'll --
just, just have them come out, though. Okay?
STEVE: We'll do that.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: Okay. .
JOHN-3: And, and we'll try to arrange that
other thing for -- Sheila?
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: All right?
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN3: Now, listen --
STEVE: 1'5 counting on you. Yes?
JOHN3: -- when, when they're all set there,
I will give you a call back in there. *
STEVE: Thank you.
JOHN-3: All right?
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: Bye-bye.
swsvs: Bye.
ittit
[Telephone dialed, then ringing.]
SHERRY: Hello?
JOHN-3: Hello. who is this?
SHERRY: This is Sherry.
JOHN-3: sherry.
O l
26
SHERRY: Umhum.
JOHN-3: This is John, John Hylar.
SHERRY: Who?
JOHN3: John Hylar.
SHERRY: Oh. John-3?
JOHN-3: Right. How are you?
SHERRY: Yeah. Fine.
JOHN-3: Sherry, is Steve there?
SHERRY: Yeah. He's running right now.
JOHN-3: Okay. -
STEVE: JOhn3?
JOHN-3: Yes.
STEVE: What's up?
JOHN-3: Steve --
STEVE: Yes?
JOHN-3: we've arranged to have a -- we don't
have a lot of women SWAT team members. I want you to
appreciate that. H
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: We've arranged, you know, in
response to your concern --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3:w -- arranged to have one come in the
Bradley. Okay?
STEVE: Great.
JOHN-3: Okay. And she's going to do the,
27
the pat-down.
STEVE: Great.
JOHN-3: All right? And then there --
STEVE: Super.
JOHN-3: And then there are other female
officers that will conduct a search, so there won't be
any men.
STEVE: Super.
JO!-IN3 : Okay?
STEVE: I appreciate -- I mean, that's part
of our whole belief system and I really -- you know, I
appreciate your respect for that. W
JOHN-3: Now, listen, Steve.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: I want you to know that she's got
short hair and she's dressed like those other ones, but
she is --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: -- a woman. Okay? We don't have
any pink --
STEVE: John, that --
JOHN-3: -- helmets for them.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: All right?
STEVE: Right. All right.
JOHN-3: Okay.
28
STEVE: That, that's all right.
JOHN-3: And the second question that --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-3: -- you had about -- is it Sherry's?
STEVE: Sherry?
JOHN-3: Or Sheila's.
STEVE: Sheila, yes.
JOHN-3: Yeah. It's being arranged for the
children to be taken to the sheriff's place to meet
with her.
STEVE: Say, that's - Sheila will appreciate
that immensely.
JOHN-3: And then she can call back. Okay?
STEVE: Okay. Very good.
JOHN-3: All right. So, we're on a roll
here. Let's keep --
STEVE: Good.
JOHN-3: -- it going.
STEVE: They're, they're, they're going to be
coming out the door pretty quick. I think they're all
about finished up here now.
JOHN-3: All right.
STEVE: So, we will be getting them out the
door.
JOHN-3: And, listen --
STEVE: Yeah?
~
,-29
JOHN-3: Get them ready and, you know --
STEVE: Just getting them walking down there
4 JOHN3: Yeah. And then when we've got them
we will call you back. Okay?
STEVE: Super.
JOHN-3: Okay?
STEVE: Okay, John.
JOHN-3: All right.
STEVE: Talk to you a little later.
JOHN3: Right.
STEVE: Bye. ~
JOHN3: Bye.
*¢¢**
[Telephone
[Telephone
[Telephone
[Telephone
[Telephone
[Telephone
[Telephone
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: H5110dialed,
dialed,
dialed,
dialed,
dialed,
dialed,
dialed,
JOHN3: Hello. 4
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hi
JOHN-3: This is Sherry? Sheila?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: N
JOHN-3: Sherry?busy
busy
busy
busy
busy
busy
thensignal.]
signal.]
signal.]
signal.]
signal.]
signal.]
ringing.]
O.
30
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: NO.
JOHN-3: Oh. Is Steve there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Just a minute.
[Dial tone.]
JOHN-3: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: G0t
disconnected there.
JOHN-3: I know. Did you hang up on me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
have a hold button here and I put it on
didn't take, for some reason.
JOHN-3: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
JOHN-3: That's all
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
Pause.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
JOHN3: 'Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
JOHN-3: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER
SPEAKER:
right.
SPEAKER:
SPEAKER:
SPEAKER:
SPEAKER:No, I - we
hold and it
sorry.
Just a minute.
Hello?
Is this John?
He said that
he's talking with people and he's trying to get things
moving. If he comes to the phone, it's just going to
take all that much longer.
JOHN-3: Okay. Can you tell me if Sheila and
James and Ophelia have left yet?
I O
I 31
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I just saw
Sheila standing outside the front of the door. She was
speaking with her husband before she left.
JOHN3: Okay. But they're, they're ready to
leave right now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah. She's at
the door and he's just -- they were just --
JOHN-3: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: -- talking then
for a minute.
JOHN-3: If ~ you know, just for
information, if you can get the word to them before
they walk down the road, the female SWAT member is in
the second Bradley.
uuznsnmxrzzn FEMALE SPEAKER: Uh-huhl
JOHN-3: Okay?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.
JOHN-3: SWAT agent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: So, they're
supposed to go to the second Bradley? Is that what
you're saying? .
JOHN-3: Pardon me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: So, are they
supposed to go to the second Bradley?
JOHN3: Yeah, but they'll be directed --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.
O O
32
JOHN3: Okay. Just walk towards them. But
I just wanted to assure that there was a, a female
agent in the second Bradley.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.
JOHN-3: All right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: All right.
JOHN-3: And do you know off can you find
out for me the nationalities of Sheila, James Lawter,
and Ophelia?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: They're
American. . -
JOHN-3: They're all Americans?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah.
JOHN-3: Okay. You understand, the press
asks and legats and things like that, okay?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah.
JOHN-3: All right. So, would you have Steve
call me in awhile?!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.
JOHN-3: Okay? Q
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: All right.
JOHN-3: All right. And we'll -- just tell
them, the three of those, to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.
JOHN-3: Okay?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.
33
JOHN-3: Bye-bye.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Bye.
iiiit
[Telephone dialed, then ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER 2: Hello?
JOHN-3: Hello. Is Steve there, please?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER 2: Yes. Who's
calling, please?
JOHN-3: This is John.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER 2: John? One
moment, please. H '
Pause.!
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN-3: Steve.
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN-3: This is John.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: Any problems with the way that that
last one went? were they assured about that?
STEVE: It seems like everything went okay,
didn't it? p
JOHN-3: I thought so.
STEVE: Okay. Good. Good.
JOHN-3: That's what I heard from this end.
STEVE: Okay. Well, that's -- we're, we're
trusting you on that.
34
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: Okay. So, has Sheila gotten to where
the kids are still yet or --
JOHN-3: That's being arranged right now.
STEVE: Okay. Well, do you, you -- right now
what I'm doing is talking to some people, so I had to
come quite a distance even to get to the phone right
now. They're all waiting on me still. So, I'll keep
on talking and spending time with them.
JOHN-3: Okay, Steve. Do you have a --
STEVE: And, and David, let me tell you, he
just passed out. You know, he's been up for more than
-- I think it's been about 36 hours.
JOHN-3: Uh-huh.
STEVE: We went all through last night,
through right into the afternoon. He probably went out
about an hour ago. If he's I don't even know if
he's out yet, but he finally closed the door and
there's no candle or anything burning by his bed where
he can see. so, hopefully, he's getting some rest.
But, you know, it's -- he's just -- he wanted to get
more taken care of with these people and -- so, I'm,
I'm deci-- what I'm doing is trying to talk to --
JOHN-3: That's good.
STEVE: -- as many as I can.
JOHN-3: Yeah. Steve --
35
STEVE: Yes?
JOHN-3: Have you got any names on these few
that you're talking to now or are these people --
STEVE: Do I, do I what now?
JOHN-3: Do you have any names on these
people --
STEVE: Not yet, because -- V
JOHN-3: - that you're talking to?
STEVE: -- I'm talking to a pretty large
group. So, you know --
JOHN-3: Okay. -
STEVE:_ I'm trying to encourage them. You
know, like some might choose to come out on their own.
That's what I'm trying to do.
_JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: And saying, you know, now, let's look
at the principles and what's - you know, and, and just
going through all of it.
JOHN-3: Steve, if you can do that, that
would really help us on this end. And, like I say, any
assurances that they need personally, I will talk --
STEVE: Right. A
JOHN-3: -- to them personally. And if you
could get a list and get it back to me, that would be
great.
STEVE: Well, I -- you know, I will try my
36
best, you know. And, and usually what they want to do
is, you know, talk to him, of course. So, I'm going to
keep on working. I'm not going to let anything stop
me. I'll just keep right on going and talking to them
and try to alleviate anything. And what they don't
know, they can, they can - I'll tell them again. They
can call you or talk to you or I'll put them on,
whatever. So, you know, when - Sheila's there, you
know, I, I -- if you want to call on the other line,
it'll be easier for -- Wayne could answer or something
and he can - or any, any one of us can, you know, just
so everything's fine, you know. But I'll -- on my
part, I'll just keep on working.
JOHN3: Okay. Is there anything that I can
do to explain to them that we should continue our good
work together?
STEVE: I guess -- see, they already know,
actually. You know, I told them and I told them they
have access -- they already know they can call you
anytime. I've -- you know, we've written a number on
the board, and right on the wall even, directly to the
wall, which is no big deal when you see the place.
But, anyway, you know, they, they know what the number
is. They can call you anytime. The phones are free.
You know, there's -- no one ever stands nearby. That's
why sometimes it takes awhile for someone to answer.
C 5 _
37
But, yeah, I'll, I'll encourage them and tell them when
- what's open to them. But the only thing I can do
right now is just keep on showing them the principles
and trying to encourage them to, to make a move.
JOHN-3: Okay, Steve. Listen, we'll keep
working on this and I'm going to call you back when
that patch is ready. Okay?
STEVE: Okay. Thanks much.
JOHN3: Sheila's ready, but we've got to get
something squared --
srzvs= Right.
JOHN-3: - away here.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: Okay?
STEVE: Real good, John. Talk to you later.
JOHN-3: All right.
STEVE: Bye.
JOHN-3: 'aye.
iiitt
[Telephone dialed, then ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello?
JOHN-3: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. Hello.
JOHN3: Hello. Is Steve there, please?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: And who's
calling?
O O
A as
JOH-3: This is John.
_ UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay, John.
Hold on a second.
Pause.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: John?
JOHN-3: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He's working
with some people right now. He said he can't get away,
but if I could take a message, he can call you back
when he can.
JOHN-3: I -- did - were you aware that they
wanted a call from Sheila?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah. He said
it might be Sheila.
JOHN3: That's, that's what's -- that's what
it is, and we've got her standing by right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay. Well, he
said if he could tahe a message and call you back
JOHN3: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He said, you
know, if he keeps running back and forth, he's not
going to get anywhere.
JOHN-3:~ Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: S0 --
JOHN-3: All right. So, you want us to wait
awhile then?
C I
39
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah. Can I
have him call you guys back?
JOHN-3: Why - hold on just one second.
Hold on. Hold on one second. How about Wayne? Is
Wayne there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Let me go --
hold on a second.
JOHN-3: Okay.
Pause.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: John?
JQHN-3: Yes. -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Wayne's on his
way. Please hold on.
JOHN3: Oh, okay.
Pause.!
WAYNE: Hello?
JOHN-3: Wayne?
WAYNE: Yes.
JOHN-3: This is John.
WAYNE: Hello, John.
JOHN3: How are you?
WAYNE: Okay.
JOHN3: I've got a call for you here.
WAYNE: Yes, sir.
JOHN3: Okay. Hold on while I patch you
through. We're going to be on the line, Wayne. Go
40
ahead. .
WAYNE: Hello?
DICK: Hello?
WAYNE: Hello. This is Wayne.
DICK: Okay. Now, this is Dick Renn. I'm
here with your, with your wife Sheila and two of your
children. And we're on the speakerphone here. And
she's got a couple things that she wants to say to you
here. Can you hear me all right?
WAYNE: Yes, I can.
DICK: All right. Go ahead. Yeah, could you
just, just -- -
SHEILA: Not discernible!.
DICK: -- just talk into that.
SHEILA: Say hi to dad. Do you want to say
hi to Daddy, Kimmy? Do you want to say hi to Daddy?
DICK: Go ahead. He can hear you.
WAYNE: Hello.
SHEILA: Say hi. It's Kimmy.
WAYNE: Kimmy, can you hear me? Kimmy? It's
Daddy.
SHEILA: Say hi to Daddy.
DICK: Real loud, Kimmy.
xnmy: ai , Daddy.
WAYNE: Is that you, Kimmy?
SHEILA: Say it again. Say it's you.
6 D
41
KIMMY: Guess who, Dad.
WAYNE: Well, Kimmy --
SHEILA: Daddy will be able to guess who.
WAYNE: Daddy certainly has been thinking
about you. I saw you on a videotape and --
SHEILA: Not discernible!.
WAYNE: Well, that's not too important. I
saw her and that's what counts. Is Daniel taking good
care of you?
KIMMY: Yes.
SHEILA: She said yes.
WAYNE: Is he being a big brother for you?
You tell Daniel I want him to be a big brother for you.
KIMMY: I will.
WAYNE: You will?
KIMMY: Yes.
WAYNE: Okay. And I still have your books.
You know those books you like to take a look at?
KIMMY: Yes.
WAYNE: Yeah. They're still here. I'll take
care of them for you.
KIMMY: Okay. A
WAYNE: Okay. And Daddy wants you to pray to
God every day, okay?
KIMMY: Yes.
WAYNE: God's taking care of you. Even when
0 I
. 42
I'm not there, God's looking after you. Okay?
KIMMY: Yes.
WAYNE: And be nice to Daniel. And I want
him to be nice to you.
KIMMY: Okay.
SHEILA: Not discernible! -- can you wake up
Danny not discernible!?
WAYNE: Let me talk to Daniel.
KIMMY: He's in the same room.
SHEILA: That's great.
WAYNE: Hello. Daniel?
DANIEL: Hi.
WAYNE: Hi. Well, you know, I've been
thinking about you every day. Are you doing okay?
DANIEL: Yes.
WAYNE: Tell me something, how long has it
been since you saw Jamie?
DANIEL: Dh. I not discernible!.
WAYNE: They don't let you see Jamie, huh?
SHEILA: Not discernible!.
DANIEL: I saw him once.
WAYNE: Uh-huh. Was he okay?
DANIEL: Yeah.
SHEILA: He's a long way from here not
discernible!. _
DANIEL: He looked --
43
DICK: Yeah. Wayne, this is, this is Dick
once again. We tried to get Jamie down here, but the
child is up in Rosebud, which is about
distance from here, and apparently the
out for a, for an outing today and are
back till approximately 5 or 6 tonight
unfortunately we couldn't, we couldn't
Your wife -- I, I've told her that and
that.an hour's
folks in went
not going to be
SO,
get together.
she understands
WAYNE: All right. I understand. Daniel,
are you still there? »
DANIEL: Yes.
WAYNE: I want you to be a big brother for
your sister Kimmy, okay?
DICK: Do you want to tell dad thatyou're
going to go back then with, with Nancy?
DANIEL: I'm going to go back to the, the
home that we were staying at with Nancy
WAYNE: Okay. Have you seen
your grandma?your grandpa or
DANIEL: Not yet. But all the kids are, you
know, rode up to go to their grandma and grandpa.
WAYNE: okay. Now, give your sister a hug
every day and let her know that you're
brother. Okay?
DANIEL: Okay.going to be her
44
WAYNE: Very good.
SHEILA: She's on the way out the door.
WAYNE: Okay.
SHEILA: Wayne --
WAYNE: Danny?
SHEILA: -- say goodbye.
WAYNE: You be a good boy, okay? _
DANIEL: Okay.
DICK: See you later, buddy. Wayne, Sheila
is here and will speak with you here -- the - while --
as, as the kids leave. nYou still there, Wayne?
WAYNE: Yeah, I'm here.
DICK:- Okay. Can you hear us well?
WAYNE: Yes, I can.
DICK: Okay.
WAYNE: Hello, Sheila?
SHEILA: Hello. Eyebye Kimmy. Good-bye.
WAYNE: fell them to keep praying to God.
SHEILA: They, they seem happy, very happy.
She cried for a little bit, couldn't tell what was
wrong, but she eventually stopped, I guess about after
five minutes.
WAYNE: Yeah.
SHEILA: She didn't need me as much. Out the
door. She's doing okay. They look like they're really
eating well.
45
WAYNE: Okay.
SHEILA: Though he was kind of chubby. Dick?
WAYNE: And are you going to be able to see
Jamie?
SHEILA: I think later on they said they were
going to - another day.
WAYNE: Okay.
DICK: I don't the Child Welfare --
SHEILA: Okay.
DICK: -- the Child Care Services will have
to arrange -- make those arrangements. I'm not sure at
this point what's, what's going to be done there.
SHEILA: We, we didn't have time to let them
know on that, like a short amount of time. Do you hear
me?
WAYNE: Me?
SHEILA: Yes.
WAYNE: I can hear you just fine. I'm just
concerned that, you know, nothing we say is private.
It's another one of those Constitutional rights. I've
seem to have lost it someplace._ I don't know. Like
when, when I get back to my room, I'm going to look all
around and see what happened to my Constitutional right
of privacy.
DICK: Wayne, we explained that to Sheila,
that, that we are here. This is on a speakerphone, a
0' or
46
speakerphone, and that there is an agent on the other
end, and it's being recorded as well. And your wife
knows that and she found that acceptable.
WAYNE: Well, I, I just wanted to raise an
objection to it.
DICK: Noted.
WAYNE: And I hope the disk jockey won't be
playing this tape. Keep your faith strong, Sheila.
SHEILA: Everything went well.
WAYNE: Uh-huh.
SHEILA: The ride was a little bumpy at
first, around the corners, but other than that it was
fine.
WAYNE: It could get bumpy down the road too.
SHEILA: Saw a lot of people, a lot of - you
know, the media was there and the people on the end of
the road, signs and things like that. But -- some were
protesting and - I} I really couldn't understand half
of the things that were there.
WAYNE: I wished I knew more about the seven
seals.
SHEILA: Yes.
WAYNE: And that it's not a lot of garbage
and it's not a false hope. I wish they knew that time
is short, that God is angry, and that God's in total
control of what's going on.
48
well-treated and has had no problems to this point,
doesn't expect any. And Sheriff Hardwell wanted me to
pass on to you that he personally is watching and
making sure that the jail is, is prepared for the folks
properly, and he wanted to pass that on to you. Sheila
and the others are here. We're in the sheriff's office
now. And we're going to go ahead and go on with some
of the things that we have to get accomplished here.
And she will be in touch. She will have a telephone
and -- it's my understanding, and will be in touch with
her children
going to say
for a moment
see you and,and those sorts of things. So, we're
good-bye now. I'll leave Sheila with you
here and we hope that, we hope that we'll
and get together with you soon.
WAYNE: Sheila, are you there?
SHEILA: I, I, I'm here.
WAYNE: Okay. So --
SHEILA: You take care, okay? And --
WAYNE: Yeah. We --
SHEILA: -- I'll see you soon. I don't want
t0 --
WAYNE: We may be out of touch for awhile, I
don't know, but --
End of Tape #150!
7/APE /5/
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #151
3/21/93
3=s'7 P.M. - 6:14 P.M.
7
K
92 Tape 151!2
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Hello. Wayne?
JOHN-3: Hello --
[Dial tone.]
[Telephone dialed, then ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
JOHN-3: Hello. Is
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
JOHN-3: John.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
Pause.! ,
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
JOHN-3: Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALESPEAKER: Hello?
Steve there?
SPEAKER: Who's calling?
SPEAKER: Hold on, John.
SPEAKER: John?
SPEAKER: Hi. He's still
talking to people. Can he call you back?
JOHN3: I, I, I've
I should discuss with him, if
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
just give him an idea of whatgot something that, that
it's all right.
SPEAKER: Okay. Can I
it is?
JOHN-3: Yeah. Just -- yeah, how much longer
will he be? Do you have any idea?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
know.SPEAKER: I really don't
JOHN-3: Okay. Would you ask him to call me
in ten minutes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Ten minutes?
3
Okay. Can I tell him what it's referring?
JOHN-3: Well, it's the same thing we've been
discussing all day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.
JOHN-3: Okay?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: All right.
I'll give him the message.
JOHN-3: Good enough.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.
iiiii
JOHN3: Hello?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello, John?
JOHN-3: Yes, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I heard you called. What's
up? .
JOHN-3: Yeah, I just -- I'm getting asked
here some questions from the boss on how many we should
expect, just for planning purposes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I don't even know yet,
because, you know, I'm talking to a -- one of the
biggest group of people that I've been able to talk to
at one time. And they're asking me questions, because
David's not around. So, you know - dealing with the
Bible. And --
JOHN-3: Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - and when I'm - you1
4
know, when I -- in fact, I need to actually keep on
going with them, because as I go, it, you know, it
speeds up things. But as to right now, you know, I
don't have any names or no one's come forth or
anything, but I'm trying to answer any and all
questions and, and show them how it's worked so far,
what's taken place, and, and all the rest of it.
JOHN-3: Okay. Steve, tell me, how many
people are you talking to, roughly?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I would say probably about
40.
JOHN-3: Okay. And do they - you know, give
me a ballpark figure that you think might be coming
out, just -- you know, I'm -- like I say, I'm
getting --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I have no idea. I couldn't
even -- I wouldn't even have the faint-- right now, in
truth, I really -eJI don't know. I don't even have the
foggiest idea, because right now I'm working again
with, you know, young and old and, and in between, and
I'm just trying to find out who's showing an interest
now. You know, I'm starting to ask some questions.
First, I'm allowing them to ask me questions in regards
to what's been opened and shared and all the rest.
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: SO, YOU know, I -- right9292
92
S
now - that's why I didn't want to keep on running back
and forth. The phone is actually quite a ways from
where they're at. So, it takes a lot of time. I'll
tell you what, I'm -- my mouth is even dry from talking
so much.
JOHN-3: Yeah. Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I'm going to --
JOHN-3: Tell me this, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- but I'm going to keep on
working with them.
JOHN-3: All right. Steve, tell me this.
Has anyone shown any interest in coming out today?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, not yet, because - I
mean, no one's saying anything, because, you know, they
are just asking questions in regard to the Bible right
now and I'm trying to -- when I finish three
here, I'm going to say well -- you know, I'm
get back into that avenue in relation to all
JOHN-3: Okay. Because, you know,
getting some heat here, as you probably well
and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you tell -pages
going to
of this.
I'm
know,
look it,
look it, just like David said last night now, the mo--
one of the most important things I can say right at
this point of time is yesterday when I was talking with
John Dolan, I'm hoping that was taped, along with JohnX
1
Cox --
JOHN-3: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Those two last -- right
from Dolan into Cox, all that was said by myself and
David could -- it couldn't be made any simpler,
plainer, clearer as to how the program's going. We
can't -- he doesn't have -- he can't -- you know, he
can encourage people and show them, and he's trying to
do that. He's almost had to, like, take his hands
almost and push them out. And we're at a place --
JOHN-3: Yeah, Q _
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- where, you know, you
can't force the consciences. You know, it's in
violation to what we believe. So, that's why even now
I'm talking so much and showing what needs to be done,
and I'm not going to lay off it. I keep on working on
it.
JOHN-3: 'Eeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, but --
JOHN-3: And that, and that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN-3: -- appreciated, Steve. I just
wanted to let you know that, you know, they, they want
to make arrangements --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, have, have them
listen to those -- some of those conversations we hadI
O I
7
last night and yesterday with the two Johns there, the
other two.
I JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And -- because that helps.
I mean, I -- they're -- you know, I'm going as fast as
I can. That's why I'm even talking to so many at once.
JOHN-3: Yeah. David had said in the past,
I"m sure, that he ca-- he, you know, had the power to,
to send these people out. He told me that he had --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, see, then it would be
92
in violation according to, you will hear on the tape
yesterday, according to what his whole work has been.
He came with the seven seals. People have come to hear
where they're located in the Bible, what it means to
this word called salvation which people have used for
thousands of years. And it all has to do with that.
Like three weeks ago when our whole life was disrupted,
you know, he was still opening those up, even to Robert
Gonzalez. You know, even though we suspected who he
was, that wasn't to take away from the man, if he has a
choice. who are we to say the guy isn't truly
interested or maybe isn't even convicted to a small
degree even now. -
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, I mean, there
could be shame involved because, you know, we appeared
8 1
to be so bizarre, weird, and, and I don't blame
anybody. If I was on the outside and had no inside
contact, having an opportunity to hear if there's any
logic or sense to all this, I would probably be apt to
judge the same as the rest. But, you know, this is
what we're trying to say. If we only can ha-- you
know, we're trying to open up and answer questions of
these people. Ultimately, we hope --
JOHN-3: Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah?
JOHN-3: Is this connection all right? It
just --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. You know, it ain't
one of the better again. It's just --
JOHN-3: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- that the phone is back
like it should be. I don't know what's happened
before -- M
JOHN-3 = Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- but it -- yeah, it's
working, well, you know, like it had been.
JOHN-3: Okay. Because this is the thing,
Steve. I, I believe David indicated that we'd probably
have a big group today. Okay? And that's what, that's
what we're going on here. And I, and I just have to
mention that a significant movement would go a long
O O
9
way --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I'm --
JOHN-3: -- to keep everybody --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know --
JOHN-3: -- here in --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In my part -- you know, you
know, John, I'm trying to do everything --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - I can.
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, you know, when it
comes down to it, I can suggest and try to talk these
people into it like I have been.
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then some of them,
maybe a couple here or there, might go and talk to him.
That's what -- but_at the same time, you know, I --
there's -- what it comes right down to, they always
want to talk to him and say: well, then hey, I'm
thinking about it, I, I -- can I ask you a question or
two? They always -- so -- they go through that whole
thing, it seems, every time.
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Now, some, some not so much
as others, you know, but almost every one. So, that's
where the difficulty lies.Y
0 O
10
JOHN-3: Yeah, and you understand that we're
a distance from there, Steve, and, and the reason we
need to know this, and if you could keep giving us some
figures, is because we need to arrange transportation
and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. I, I --
JOHN-3: -- and handling by the Sheriff's
Department. You know what I mean?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. I've been aware of
that.
JOHN3: Okay, And that -- it doesn't happen
overnight. I mean, we have to, you know, we have to
have a little bit of time.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
JOHN-3: Okay. Now, we, we, we won't have to
wait for David to wake up for these people that came --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Probably --
JOHN-3: - coming out?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and I'm going to tell
you the truth, probably will have to.
JOHN-3: Well, we, we -- do you know when
that will be? .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. I, I always have
someone trying to keep an eye on him, because, you
know, sometimes he'll sleep only a couple hours and
then will be back awake. The thing is last --
ll
yesterday, he was awake all through the day. I don't
know if he slept the night before, but he was through
the whole day, all through last night, and right into
this afternoon he was still awake. So, because of that
very reason, I, I've got a feeling he might sleep for a
number of hours here. And, as soon as I can start
getting some of these people to go talk to them, I can
get something going here. '
JOHN-3: Okay. Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So -- but, you know, of
course, like I've told you and the others before, I'm
always keeping an eye -- I'll tap at the door or I'll
look in or call his name and see if I can get a
response. I wish - you know, obviously --
JOHN-3: If you could do thi-- Steve, listen.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I do. That's something
I have been doing from day one.
JOHN-3: Oh, I know that. I know you have.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: --.will tell you this. You
know, if it wasn't for his illnesses, being sick, you
know, the wound, you know, he wouldn't -- it wouldn't
-- man, he would be up talking to them, you know, the
whole group, but he can't handle it.
JO!-IN-3: Yeah.
12
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He can't handle it. So,
even his room is so small he gets only -- he only can
fit a couple people in there. And I was trying to hope
that, that he could come out and talk to a larger
group, but he just -- you can't even -- he made a
mistake by coming down to where I was at and talking to
Byron that day. You know, I thought he was kind of
strong, and all of a sudden I looked toward the end of
the conversation. He was trying to tell them he needed
to use the facilities. He actually did. Along with,
man, talk about bleeding. And I'm afraid he opened up
the wound inside again, because then he -- he's, he's
not been up since then.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I, I -- he made a -- I
think he made a mistake by getting up and moving around
like he did. _
JOHN-3: Yeah. Well, Steve, you know, the
thing of it is, if this is a large group, we need to.
to wake him up if it's -- because we want it to be
before dark. You know what I mean?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:" Well, I -- you know, in
honesty, I don't think it's going to happen, if I'm to
be truthful with you. I -- bec-- I mean, he -- they've
got to talk to him. I -- you know, there's nothing I
can do. I can go down there and say hey, why don't you
O O
13
-- let's, let's all get out of here now and, you know
-- I mean, I could do that, but they'd just look at me,
I mean, and say Steve, look, we didn't come here to
hear you and -- they -- I'm telling you, that's what
they'd say to me. I al-- I already know. You know,
I've tried to a small degree and, and the reaction I
got, it was clear enough.
JOHN-3: Yeah. Because, see --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So --
JOHN3: -- you've, you've got to appreciate,
Steve, I don't know what, what these other people in
here have in mind. They don't always tell us. And,
and all they --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN-3: -- told me was that a significant
movement would go a long way to keeping things in
progress. You know what I mean?
right
seems
today
goingSTEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, we're doing real well
now. I think we -- you know, as it goes on, it
like it can and is picking up. You know, like
even from even Friday, and, and I think it's
to get better. I really do. You know, and --
JOHN-3: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and, and, you know,
what's funny is, you know, like the position I'm in
rightnow, is I'm talking to people all the time.
r
7u
' 92
14
Yeah, I've got myself convinced from day one I need to
get out of here myself, but, you know, it's like I need
-- it was kind of like ~- even when I was talking with
-- I can't remember who I talked to that Tuesday when
it seemed like we were all coming out. But I was asked
to stay back, and it wasn't something I wanted to do,
but I guess I -- since that time, I've more or less
accepted, well, until everybody gets out, if I've got
to be the last one or if I can come out with a group,
fine. But, you know, in your mind, you know, you want
to come out and just get it over with and get on, on
with things. But I know I can do better just by
talking to these people and, and just get4- keeping the
process going.
JOHN3: Okay. Steve, I just want to -- you
know, I just want to -- I don't want any
misunderstanding here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN~3: What I, what I've been told, okay,
and, and -- well, what they say, it, it doesn't help
when only a few come out. You know, they were looking
for a big group because that's what they were led to
believe and that's what --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, see, if that's true,
I don't know anything about it, you know. I mean, I'm
al-- I've got my hopes, you know, of course. But if
. 15
you listened to the tapes, you would hear -- I mean, I
would -- if I had the tapes, I'd turn them back on and
hear, and then I'd probably --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- play on that. But I
don't have, so I don't know.
JOHN-3: You know, I'm trying to help, but
the bosses are frustrated. It's been 21 days and they
want to see some real progress today.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN-3: You know?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: See -- yeah, you've got to
remember, though, that these people have been here,
some for 20 --
JOHN-3: Well -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - 30 years. ,And, you
know, 21 days to them, now, they're -- you've got to
remember, you know, there's a fear of God. They're
afraid of salvation and souls, not so much -- you know,
they're going out into this system now, of course, and
they were --
JOHN-3: And you know they've been well-
treated, don't you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon? Well, that --
JOHN-3: You know they've been well~treated
and --92w
16
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN-3: -- and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And we hope, to the very
last person, that that'1l be made -- that'll be so all
the way through, you know. We, we -- one always hopes
that'll remain that way.
JOHN-3: Well, we haven't been inconsistent
yet. I haven't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. No.
JOHN-3: -- promised you anything.
swsvs SCHNEIDER: You guys -- of you 11
negotiators, whatever it's been, I mean, if you were
involved completely during the whole process of how
long it ever takes, I mean, I would trust that. But,
of course, you know, there's other elements involved
here, and so one doesn't always know. But with you
guys, you've proven yourselves and -~ I mean, that's
not been a problem by any means. But if you -- can you
-- I'm still always curious as to what the ATF has to
do with all this. When the Texas Rangers come in to do
an investigation or -- and to look over the building
and so forth, what they needed to do with the search
and all that, are the ATP going to be involved at that
point of time also, or is that just going to be the
unbiasedness of the Texas Rangers?
JOHN3: I ha-~
O O
17
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Or of yourselves even?
JOHN-3: Yeah. Steve, it's my understanding
that the Rangers are going to be doing the
investigation there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN-3: Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are the ATF at all -- are
they going to be involved? Can you give me a word, or
tell me for a fact they will or won't be or --
JOHN-3: To some extent they will, but, like
I say, the evidence is ~- you know, the evidence is
there. Do you know what I mean?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. -Yeah. I know that.
But I still -- I - I'll be honest with you. I --
well, from what I've heard from the spokesperson and
from many things that have been stated since then, it
-- I'll tell you the truth, it bothers me. It bothers
me.
JOHN-3: was that you or me?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'd rather have the
unbiased control of the Texas Rangers or someone like
yourselves or whatever else.
JOHN-3: Yeah. And that's, that's going to
be taken care of, Steve, so --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN-3: I just, I just want you to unders--
18
you know, the bosses, they don't understand, you know,
why they don't come out since you said from the
beginning that they are coming out, and ~
STEVE SCHNEIDEE: Well, remember now,
remember since John Dolan got back on the line that we
started getting this momentum go-- remember how he had
dropped off all those items, in that mor-- what
morning? See, I'm losing track of time. But from that
morning that that -- I told him -- I mean, I tried to
use every kind of language and, and way possible to let
them know if I had something to work with. You see how
it worked? Along with talking with David and all the
rest. But, you know, that's what helps, all those kind
of things. And now that we've got this relationship
building again - _ 1
JOHN-3: Yeah, I know.
STEVE SCENEIDER: -- you know, watch, watch
it come. But, you know, if they start pushing and all
that, and then it, it always goes against these people.
They get a little leery again. So, that's why I don't
like even saying anything to them, that, hey, the
bosses are pushing. They want you'all -- if I do that,
I'm going to go -- it they'll go backwards on what
I'm doing and how I'm working with them now.
JOHN-3 = Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I realize your
19
frustration and I - I mean, I, I -- believe me, I
sympathize, because I'm involved in it myself.
JOHN3: Steve, let me mention ~-
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I'm anxious --
JOHN-3: -- something to you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I'm anxious.
JOHN-3: I am too. But, listen, let me call
you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN~3: The other day you said give me
something to work with, didn't you? »
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's right.
JOHN-3: Huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And you guys did fin--
JOHN-3: Okay.
swsvs SCHNEIDER: Finally come through.
JOHN-3: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I said --
JOHN-3: Now you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- hey, this is what I've
been waiting for.
JOHN-3: You've got to do the same thing for
us. Okay? Because, you know, I'll tell you ~-
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Haven't I been? If you
know how Ive been talking and not getting sleep -- I'm
run down. You guys take switches and you get off the
~
20
phone and get back on and different ones and have
different shifts and all that. That's not so for me,
John. You know, I, I tell you what, you know, the, the
ability of a human being to concentrate, to think,
awareness, you know, you become very dull after awhile,
you know, lacking the sleep and, and with all the
pressures, the circumstances. It, it's so different.
And I realize, you know, you guys have come from all
over America and you need to get back and you want to
get back to your homes. You know, I -- believe me.
JOHN3: Not my home; my family, yes.
Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know --
JOHN-3: -- you know what I mean?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's -- that's what I'm
talking - when I say home, I -- that's what I mean is
family.
JOHN-3: Yeah. I've got a six-yearold that
called me yesterday and he said he didn't remember what
I looked like, but I'm committed to helping you get
through this --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:_ Oh, good.
JOHN-3: -- as is John Dolan, all right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN-3: So, that's what I told my six-year-
old son. But I just wanted to mention to you that we
21
need something to work with because, I'll tell you,
John Dolan and some others, you know, we're getting to
the boint where they're --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: When am I going to be
talking to --
JOHN-3: -- going to start --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - Mr. Dolan again?
JOHN-3: I, I don't know, because he may be
rotating out of here. You know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, before he
leaves, have him give me a call? '
JOHN-3: Yeah. And I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I had a --
JOHN-3: -- he wanted to greet --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I had a --
JOHN3: -- he wanted to greet you and the
others when, when they --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
JOHN-3: -- came out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I had -- I've had - not to
say anybody -- but, you know, there's certain -- I
liked his personality. .
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It goes along with some
more of what I see myself as. I mean, I really -- I
had a real good rapport with the man and --
I
22
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - so, it's - I was hoping
to actually, like you said, meet him. I'd, I'd like to
at least talk to him again, but --
JOHN-3: And he would like the same. I'll
tell you that. But I think he's going to be rotating
tomorrow. So. _
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, have him
call me for sure. If he's around there today, I
wouldn't mind talking to him, but, you know, let - I'm
going to go back down and, and continue to talk with
these people. -
JOHN-3: Steve, we don't want to push, but
the bosses don't want this to keep going on and on with
-- you know, the real progress today is, is going to be
critical. I
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I thought it was pretty
good, to be honest with --
JOHN-3: You know?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you, John.
JOHN-3: But, Steve, it's a good start, but,
I'll tell you, we've got --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, then --
JOHN-3: -- some medical assistance for these
people --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm al-- you know, you --
23
JOHN-3: You know what I mean?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John, I -- you know it, I
apprec-- golly. Isn't this awesome? I mean, it's like
-- what you ought to do is record this and just play it
for me on the outside over and over again, because I,
I'm going to agree with you all the way --
JOHN-3: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- but I still, unless --
should, should I maybe get some kind of a -- I don't
know what I should do. If I should just grab hold of
these people by the neck and try to pull them out or me
come out and just grab one -- I -- what am I to do?
JOHN-3: Steve, just assure them that they
are --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I have been.
JOHN-3: -- going to be treated well and
that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hey, I'll -- I'll tell you
what. I'll get a tape recording of me talking to them
so you can even hear, so you can believe me. But, you
know, I can't force them out. -The one that has -- you
know, that really can tell them something that can
encourage them to move along is David. Now that he's
passed out or he's sleeping, you know, it makes it
difficult for me. But I don't, I don't quit even then.
JOHN-3: I know.
1
2
3
4
s
'6
7
e
9
10
ll
12
13
14
15
16
l724
STEVE SCHNEIDER; I don't quit even then.
JOHN-3: Steve, listen. It's a good start.
I'm not diminishing today's progress. But I'm just
telling you that at, at five or six a day it's going to
take a long time and, and that's unacceptable --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, no. Wait, wait --
JOHN-3: -- to these people.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But don't you -- don't -- I
mean, if you guys can't see that it, it's picked up in
numbers, even little -- but -- you know, I was telling
-- this was -- would have continued on from that Friday
when the electricity was cut off. Do you realize that
over probably two-thirds would have been out already?
JOHN-3: Oh, Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If not, if not all of them?
And that's because we're trying to rebuild on that good
communication, the rapport, all of that, and that's --
O O
25
you're going to find out one of these days when we're
all out -- you can talk to them and ask them. You're
going to find out that is not true. I, I'm telling you
the truth. They - it's -~ it doesn't work that way
with them. They came here to hear this man, not me. I
came to learn from the guy myself. He's got an ability
I don't have. I mean, look, I've spent my life with
theologians and very highly educated human beings and
there's been no one that's had the consistency of
answers when it comes to sciences and religion and
health and all the other subjects that there are. You
know, if you ever have the opportunity, try to nail him
down on any topic. And he'll tell you the anatomy of
the body and what it needs and how by eating certain
foods and staying to a certain program you will keep
free of disease and you can recover. I mean, you know,
he'll get into any aspect. It's, it's quite
phenomenal. The man has only got a ninth-grade
education. But, you know, these people have come to
hear him. That's what I'm telling you. They didn't
come to hear me. I don't have the answers he has. He
doesn't have to go pull a book out or say I learned it
from this doctor, this professor, or this is my own
education. It didn't come like that by him. He says
he's divinely inspired. Pictures are shown to him. I
mean, that can be a bunch of nonsense or maybe it's
26
true. You know -- I mean, the prophets of old, they
either ate pizza late at night and had bad dreams and
wrote them down and people are believing them to this
day or -- and, I mean, everybodys got to decide that.
But that's why these people are here, are, are because
of listening to him and -- you know, I
try to encourage and all the rest, but
do. But, you know, let me get back to
to keep on going. I'll keep on tryingdo my best to
that's all I can
them. I'm going
to work, you
know. I mean -- you know, I'm, I'm worn out from even
talking there and on the phone and, you know, it -- I
mean, I want a lot of things too. I do
JOHN-3: You know, Steve, I -- you know, you
may not realize it right now, but I'm, I'm acting as a
true friend and I'm trying to work with you to get a
solution, and I mean soon. Okay? Do you understand
what I mean?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes, I do.
JOHN-3: Okay. I mean, the, the five or six
a day has been told me that it's unacceptable and, and
I'm trying to work --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, what
now, what does that mean now? It's --
acceptable? Then what --does that --
and -- it's not
JOHN-3: I'm just telling you that they, they
were told - they, they assumed that Sunday was --
27
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, what, what should --
JOHN-3: -- going to be a good day.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Look it. They shouldn't be
assuming anything. I've said that for -- John Dolan
knows that. John Cox knows that. I, I've spoken very
plainly and clearly. So has David. Really, we have --
I mean, especially me. I can't do anything, John. I
mean, look, here I am doing something that normally --
I mean, on my own, if, if I just came out, then I don't
even know how -- what you do about getting the -- it'd
be slower yet. I know it would be already. I know it
would be. If that's not acceptable, what do you guys
want to do? That -- well, let me ask you, what do you
want to do? i
JOHN-3: Steve, don't -- I'm the messenger
here. All right? But I'm just --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no. I'm just saying --
JOHN-3: -4 trying to get --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I don't know what --
JOHN-3: -- my point across and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I -- no, and you are. You
have been for -- I mean, for three weeks now, believe
me, it's been the same -- if you go back and listen to
all the things that have been said by the negotiators.
nothings changed. I, I've heard very well from the
beginning and I don't disagree with you. I really
28
don't. But I'm just saying I don't -- what else can I
do? What else can I do?
I JOHN-3; I just wanted you to know that
several days ago David said that it would all be over
in a few days and everyone would be out of there, and
it keeps going on and on. You know?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I can lay down and
take a good sleep here. I don't know what else to do.
Honestly. I'm
JOHN-3: Keep working on them.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I am.
JOHN-3: All right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I am.
JOHN-3: Call me back with some numbers.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I -- if I have them I will.
If I can, you know, I know that I'm going to need to
try to get them to him, because they all already told
me if they do they want, they want to know some things.
And I says, well, what do you want to know? You know,
I'm even asking that: What do you want to know? Give
me an opportunity, because maybe I've heard it myself.
You know, I mean, I'm tr- no matter what aspect it is,
it's been that way.
JOHN-3: I just wanted to mention that it's
really important, okay? And help me with this, okay?
Just help me keep them, you know, on the, on the right
0 9
track here. I don't want ~- you know, I don
anything to, to goof up this progress.
V srsvs SCHNEIDER: Well, I don't --
that's why I -- you know, like coming to the
right now, it would have been, it would have
your advantage if I'd have been staying even29
t want
hey,
phone
been to
the last
10, 20 minutes with those people talking to them while
he's sleeping, because the minute he wakes up there
could be five going to talk to him or ten or hanging
outside the door. I don't even know. I don't know.
So far, no one's come forward and said anything. So --
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- so that's why I'm down
there still trying to figure it out myself who might --
you know, if it's going to be an older person. Maybe
some young person might want to just get done and go on
out, or whatever. You know, there's so many different
kinds of personalities here. Extreme, you know, from
one to another. So, it's like a guessing game
actually. And I just keep on talking to, you know,
this one and that one. First I was going through the
hall. I'd sit down with them. And then I asked them
if I couldn't talk to as many as possible. And, you
know, about half of them -- less than -- well, close to
half maybe - or I was able to talk to at one time.
But of a lot of them, now that I've been called to the
30
phone, have gone and taken off. So, when I get back to
where they're at, maybe there will be only five, ten of
them. I don't know.
JOHN-3: Steve, will you do what you can for
me?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's why, you know --
JOHN-3: Huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - I told -- that's why I
told the persons to tell you that I was busy with them.
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: For that very reason.
JOHN-3: Okay. But I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But now it's --
JOHN-3: - just wanted to stress how
important it is. Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, they're going to
probably pass me off saying well, we gave you time,
Steve. You know, we came and sat down. And now, when
I get back, I know there's not going to be -- I know
that they -- because they're going to take off to do
what they think they've got to do. And whatever's
left, well, I'll keep on talking with them.
JOHN-3: Okay. Well, keep on plugging.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN-3: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Talk to you later.
get him.JOHN3: Bye
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Bye.
iiii31
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Dialing.
[Telephone dialed, then ringing.]
NICOLE:
JOHN-3: Hello. Is Steve there?Hello?
NICOLE: Who's calling?
JOHN3: This is John again.
NICOLE: Okay. Hang on a moment. I'll go
JOHN-3: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED
now. Byron?
now, buddy
they went
tell youBYRON SAGE:
UNIDENTIFIED
BYRON SAGE:
UNIDENTIFIED
to get him.
BYRON SAGE:
UNIDENTIFIED
when he comes
BYRON SAGE:MALE SPEAKER-
Yes?
MALE SPEAKER
Okay.
MALE SPEAKER
Hello?
MALE SPEAKER
on.Hello?You
You
Not
Not
We asked for Steve
JOHN-3: Steve.should be in
should be in
yet. They,
yet. I'll
or David?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER TO BYRON SAGE:
32
Okay. You, you, you're on with John now, John Hylar,
and then when he comes to the phone you'll be on with
him.
BYRON SAGE: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay?
Pause.!
NICOLE: John? Hello?
JOHN-3: Hello.
BYRON SAGE: Hello.
NICOLE: John, Steven's going to take a
message because he's still trying to talk to people
downstairs.
JOHNf3: Is David there?
BYRON SAGE: Okay. This is Byron Sage. Is
David up?
NICOLE: No, he's not.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. This is, this is real
important. Is there any way that you can go ahead and,
and ask -- or get the phone to Dave if he can't make it
to the phone, just briefly?
NICOLE: Oh -- :
BYRON SAGE: Steve is still talking with the
people downstairs?
NICOLE: Yeah.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. I don't, I don't
necessarily want to interrupt him with that. But if
33
you could get the phone to David, I would appreciate
it.
NICOLE: Oh. Hang on.
BYRON SAGE: Thank you.
Pause.!
NICOLE: Hello?
BYRON SAGE: Hi.
NICOLE: Is this Byron Sage again?
BYRON SAGE: Yes, it is.
NICOLE: Oh, look. I tried to call - wake
him up twice and he is -- I called his name and he's
not responding. He's been up for like 24 or 25 hours.
BYRON SAGE: Yeah. That's, that's two of us.
Is this -- this isn't Rachel, right?
NICOLE: No.
BYRON sAss= Okay. Aisha maybe?I
NICOLE: Sorry?
BYRON SAGE: What, what was your name?
NICOLE: This is Nicole.
BYRON SAGE: Nicole. Okay. I, I thought
maybe it was Ollie's sister. It's very important that
I talk to him. It probably won't take very long. I
understand that, that he's been up at -- frankly, we've
got a, we've got a lot of people, including myself,
that have been up nearly that long as well.
NICOLE: Yeah.
I 34
BYRON SAGE: Is there any way that you could
possibly just --
NICOLE: I tried. I really tried. I mean,
he's wounded and he hasn't slept and he's just totally
out of it. I, I, I'm not going to go in there, you
know. I, I, I called. I knocked on the door. I spoke
very loudly. I, I can't get him up.
BYRON SAGE: Okay.
NICOLE: Okay?
BYRON SAGE: Is there any way that you can
get -- go down and talk'to Steve, let him know that,
that -- I'm not trying to be, you know, overly
insistent, but then I wouldn't ask you to do this if it
wasn't important. I need to talk to him. I think
there's some, some things we need to work through, for
both of our --
NICOLE; Well, Steve ~
BYRON SAGE: - best interests.
NICOLE: -- Steve said that he didn't want to
be interrupted any more because he's trying to get
something important across to the people downstairs,
and a lot of them is down there listening.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. What --
NICOLE: And he's already been ~- John rang,
I think it was fi-- he's just been interrupted so many
times and -~
35
BYRON SAGE: Right.
NICOLE: He doesn't -- you know, he just
doesn't -- he's trying to get something across to --
you know, he's talking to them.
BYRON SAGE: Right.
NICOLE: And they're talking --
BYRON SAGE: Nicole, I --
NICOLE: -- to him and I --
BYRON SAGE: Nicole, I understand. I
understand the predicament we're both in. But I need
to talk to either Steve or David, and I'll just kind of
-- well, would you mind going up and trying to wake up
David again? Tell him that it's Byron Sage, that I
just came back from talking with, with the commanders
and I need to discuss some matters with him that are
important and that, that he needs to address pretty
quick.
NICOLE: Okay. 1'11 try.
BYRON SAGE: Thank you very much. I'm sorry
to run you all over here.
Pause.!
NICOLE: Hello? ,
BYRON SAGE: Yes.
NICOLE: I, I tried. He's not ans-- I've
banged. I, I've ca-- I yelled. He's just not
responding. -
36
BYRON SAGE: Do you have any suggestions as
to how -- Steve's in his meeting.
NICOLE: Yes.
BYRON SAGE: And David is, is --
NICOLE: HE'S --
BYRON SAGE: -- completely out of it.
NICOLE: Yeah, he is. The only thing -- I, I
mean, I'm sorry, you know. I've tried. I've done my
best.
BYRON SAGE: No. And I appreciate it,
Nicole, but -- v l
NICOLE: The only thing I can suggest is if
you call back in, say, half an hour to an hour when
Steve might be done talking.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Did -- the key thing is I
need to talk to David more than I need to talk to
Steven.
NICOLE: Yeah. Well, like I'm saying,
apparently David has been up for a, a long time, you
know. Steve was saying 25, 26, 27 hours --
BYRON SAGE: Um-hum.
NICOLE: -- straight. And he's -- with his
wounds and everything, he's just out.
BYRON SAGE: when do you anticipate he will
- this even-- he's normally up by this time of the day
is why I was, I was wondering why he was still down.
37
NICOLE: Well, Steve said that he didn't go
to sleep until like -- I don't know, until 2:00 or
something in the afternoon, and then the, the things --
messages have been playing here as well.
BYRON SAGE: Right.
NICOLE: Which --
BYRON SAGE: Yeah. That's, that's me
broadcasting them at you and I, I hope, I hope my name
or voice doesn't become an irritant to -- let me ask
you this, Nicole, if you don't mind. Are you still
there? ~ Q
NICOLE: Um-hum.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Do you have any -- hello?
NICOLE: Yes.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Our, our phones are
getting a little messed up or something. Do you have
any indication as to how many people are going to be
coming out this evening?
NICOLE: I really couldn't tell you. I have
no idea.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Well, will you be one of
them, hopefully? E
NICOLE: I don't know.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Well, I, I sure hope you
will be, because we're trying to get this thing, you
know, resolved just as quickly as we can and, and, more
O I
I 38
importantly, to be able to, to get the kind of
treatment that, that you all need. And I'm, I'm sure
this has been a long 22 days for you as well as it has
been for me. Can you get a message to Steve then
and -- »
NICOLE: Yeah, sure. I'll take it. I've got
a pen here.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Tell him, if you would,
that Byron Sage called, S A G E.
NICOLE: S - sorry. What was that?
BYRON SAGE: S A G E --
NICOLE: Right. That's --
BYRON SAGE: -- like sagebrush.
NICOLE: -- I've already written your name
down here.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. That I called and he can
reach me through the, through the negotiation number
that he has.
NICOLE: Okay.
BYRON SAGE: Okay? And -- but it's very
important that I talk primarily to David.
NICOLE: Right. A
BYRON SAGE: Okay?
NICOLE: Yeah.
BYRON SAGE: All right. And please let him
know that I called at this time.
39
NICOLE: What -- let me just check my wa--
I BYRON SAGE: I've got about 5:24. Let me
see.
NICOLE: Well, yeah, my watch says 5:25.
Yours is --
BYRON SAGE: Okay.
NICOLE: Okay. I'll write that down.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. If you would, please, I
would appreciate it. And, and if Steve gets there
first, I need to talk to him too. So, ask either one
of them, but preferably David, if you can wake him up.
NICOLE: okay.
BYRON SAGE: Okay?
NICOLE: Okay.
BYRON SAGE: Nicole, thank you. I hhpe, I
hope we see you soon.
NICOLE: okay.
BYRON SAGE: All right.
NICOLE: Bye.
BYRON SAGE: Bye-bye.
itiii
JOHN3: Hello? '
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello. John?
JOHN-3: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Okay, Steve calling
back. Did you - someone said you called? Did you
Q O
40
call for me or did someone call for me?
JOHN-3: Yes, Steve. Byron wanted to talk
to you. He wanted to talk to David. Is David still
asleep? V
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I just checked there just
now. Yeah, he's still out.
JOHN-3: Hmm. Byron had called for, for
David. He --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, he did.
JOHN-3: -- he wanted to talk to him. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Someone -- I, I
couldn't tell. There was somebody down at the end of
the hall there and they, they motioned, and then I says
what, and they said the note, I guess it's for David or
something, so I didn't know. So, then, finally when I
finished with them, I came up to check on him, and I
see he's out cold. -
JOHN-3: Okay. Steve, how are you doing in
there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I was talking for,
you know - like since I left you I was down there that
whole time talking to them. And they're saying to me.
well, okay, we see a lot of these things now and they
say can we go talk to him. And I says, well, he's
sleeping. I says what can you do? I said he, he
hasn't had any sleep for 24, 36 hours, somewhere in
I I
41
there. And, you know -- I mean, I was amazed how late
he's -- I was kind of -- I wish he wouldn't have stayed
up so late last night, you know. He was with --
talking with John Cox for quite some time-and --
JOHN-3: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, I stayed right there
myself and then listened and -- I really -- the truth
is, from yesterday, even last night, I thought it was
really a good rapport. We were really picking up. I
could tell by how they were both talking and acting and
-- and then, of course, you know, now, I'm, I'm
starting to wonder if it's -- what, what's going on
again. I thought we were really going somewhere.
JOHN-3: Yes, Steve. You've got to
appreciate that, you know, we're, we're under a lot of
pressure here too. You know that, right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN-3: And that's, that's the thing that I
wanted to impart to you anyhow. And I think that is
what Brian sic! wanted to mention -- or Byron wanted
to mention to David.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
JOHN3: You know what I mean?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see. Okay. Well, you
know, I'm going to keep my eyes on him. And when --
so. you guys, you have different shifts then? It's at
42
6 or something?
JOHN-3: Well, it, it varies.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, it does, huh?
JOHN-3: Steve, like I say, you know, we're
all committed to, to trying to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah, I --
JOHN3: -- resolve this.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- understand. No, I just
wondered --
JOHN-3: You know?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - because, you know, one's
talking to one and, you know, you know, it's how it
goes, but --
JOHN-3: So, can you give me some names as --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm exhausted. Huh?
JOHN-3: Can you give me some names of some
people that you've talked to?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: A lot of them you already
have, you know, a good share of them. And, and there
would not be anything new. I've talked to -- well, I
-- you know, like, say, there must have been like 30,
maybe 40 in there. I just asked the -- I -- what I did
was earlier said hey, look, can I get as many people
together as, as possible here? So, I said, it's so
tiring going all over the place talking to two or three
here and there. I said give me an opportunity. And,
43
you know, there's, there's - with that many, you know,
I, I almost have to sit down and try to think of some
of the faces that were in there. But most of them, I
think you have them all, because we, you know, over
time have, have given them to you. Those that were --
I was trying to encourage and saying a few things to
them, were saying to me, well, we'd like to go and talk
with David. And I says, well, you know, that's what I
told them, well, he's sleeping right now. And I says
what do you need to know or what do you -- what do
have? And they asked me a couple questions I had
difficulty with and that's when they mentioned that
again. And, so, I -- about that time, that's when I
came up to the phone here.
JOHN-3: _Steve, can, can you give me an idea
if anybody will be coming out tonight?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know, because what
I need to do, see, is talk with David, because I, I
don't know who else he talked to. I was going to try
to find out if he talked to a few more, if they were
getting ready, or just what was going on. Wouldn't you
know in the process he up and passes -- or, you know,
falls asleep, passes out, you know, from being so
exhausted from going -- I, I wished he wouldn't have
done that, you know, go through the night like he did.
But, you know, he did and, and I don't know what he
I
9244
worked out with somebody or, or what they got going
there. But I, I was trying to find that out just
before I even came to the phone.
JOHN-3: Yeah. Steve, can, can -- you know,
we, we'd like to know, because, you know, it's going to
be getting dark here in another, what, half-hour, 45
minutes?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Probably.
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, I don't, I don't --
what time is it even? I don't -- I've gone so long I
-- the whole day's like disappeared on me so quickly.
JOHN-3: It's about ten of 5, five of 5 --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN-3: -- or ten of 6, five of 6.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, is it really?
JOHN-S: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Let
me keep on working, you know, and going at it.
JOHN-3: Okay. Can you hold on one second?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN-3: Okay.
Pause.!
JOHN-3: Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JOHN-3: I've just been told that,
O I
45
apparently, they're going to be moving some vehicles.
You know as you face the front of the house?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
JOHN-3: Okay. The left side and the right
side, as you face the house.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, are they, are they --
how are they moving them?
JOHN-3: I'm not sure. I'm not out there, so
I don't know, but --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Probably running them over,
huh? H
JOHN-3: Probably a bulldozer, I imagine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN3: But they'll, they'll -- you know,
they don't want to hurt anything. They're going to
move them as gently as possible and they aren't going
to monkey with the motorcycles. Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I -- the on-- I wasn't even
aware there were motorcycles out there. There are --
there's some out in the front, you're saying?
JOHN-3: Go-carts? Are they go-carts or
something? A
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, go-carts. Oh, I see.
Over on the --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- side of the building.
46
JOHN-3: Yeah. Yeah, that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well --
JOHN-3: -- that's where they just --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- over -- against the
building. So, I -- you know.
JOHN-3: It's -- no. They aren't -- you
know, it's not offensive. They're just moving them
out, and that's all I know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN- 3 = Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN-3: All right. Now, are you going to go
w-- talk to David now or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I'm going to keep my
eye open. You know, I'm still trying to see if I can't
get a -- see if I can't get him either woke up or see
if he's not coming around still. You know, I'm going
to see if -- how long it's going to take here.
JOHN-3: Yeah. And if you could continue to
talk to those people, I'll tell you, Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, that's -- well,
that's what I've --
JOHN-3: - it's really important.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- been doing. That's what
I've been --
JOHN-3: All right?
1
!
92~
/'
92 .STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- doing. Yeah.
JOHN-3: And if you can get some people out
of there tonight, it would be great.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, I'm working.
JOHN-3: Yeah. I know you are.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
J01-IN-3: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Bye.
JOHN-3: Bye.
[End of tape 151]
///W /V
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
J
TAPE #152
3/21/93
6:14 p.m. > 11:36 p.m.
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iaround?»
I
I
run off
I phone ringing!
SHERRY:
JOHN COX.
SHERRY:
JOHN COX
SHERRY:
JOHN COX:
SHERRY:
JOHN COX
SHERRY:
JOHN COX:
I've got
your friend.
SHERRY:
JOHN COX
SHERRY:
JOHN COX
SHERRY:
JOHN COX
SHERRY:
JOHN COX: I'm sorry
SHERRY:Hello, hello
Hello. This is John
Hello.
Can you hear me
Vaguely.
Who's this°
This is Sherry
Sherry This is John Is Steve
Well~
Oh. Never mind Sherry Don't
a message for you This is John,
John Cox
How are you°
Hi.
How are you?
Fine.
And I don't know if I passed it on
to you before about contact we had from your mother
I'm just trying to contact a bunch of people in there
an let them know that some folks have called and asked
That's good Did you just get on°
Did you just get on°
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JOHN COX: Well, I've been here for a while.
SHERRY: When did you get there?
JOHN COX: What time is it? 8:20. Around 6.
SHERRY: Well, that's good.
JOHN COX: What I wanted to tell you is she
indicated that she was in Texas for a while. Hoping
you'd come out please. Let me know you're okay. We
have a phone number to call her. She'll be in Texas
until Wednesday. She left a mobile telephone number
and a phone number where we can reach her. An 817
number. where is that, do you know? »
SHERRY: 817?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
SHERRY: That's here.
JOHN COX: Oh. Okay. It's been a Long time.
So, we'll give her a call. We'll have somebody give
her a call and let her know that we talked to you, we
spoke to you, you're doing okay.
SHERRY: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Any message that you want passed on
to her?
SHERRY: Um --
JOHN COX: And I need something else from you
too kid. All this note says is mother. What's her
name?
SHERRY: Ruth Moser.
all mixed
on.
to faceJOHN COX: Okay. Got you.
SHERRY: Yeah. Let's see. Have her read --
up - have her read Mark 13.
JOHN cox= Okay. That's 1:?
SHERRY:
JOHN COX:
SHERRY:
JOHN COX
SHERRY:
JOHN COX
SHERRY:
JOHN COX
SHERRY:
JOHN COX
looking forward to
messages fSHERRY:
JOHN COXLuke 21.
Okay.
Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're back
Me too.
Yeah.
Enjoy it.
Huh?
I enjoy talking to you all.
One of these days I'll meet you fac
You will. You betcha. I'm
it.
Well, I don't know where Steve is.
Any other message for your mom?
SHERRY aside!: This is John Cox.
SHERRY: I think he's coming.
JOHN COX: Okay because I've got a bunch of
or other people and --
SHERRY aside!: I guess he's got a bunch of
messages. Yeah.
SHERRY: Here he is.4
Q
5
STEVE: John. It's a pleasure to hear your
voice. I'm serious. Oh, brother, I'm worn out.
X JOHN cox= Oh, no. I'm going to let you get
a good night's sleep tonight.
STEVE: Yeah. I've been talking since early.
I mean I went to bed and I sat up there -- remember how
you were talking with them and -- '
JOHN COX: No. I was doing a lot of
listening.
STEVE: That's true, John, you were.
JOHN COX: There was one principal talker and
I couldn't believe it that he had you and Rita awake
COO.
STEVE: That's true. I was there until at
least 4, I think it was later, 5 by the time I turned
in. I slept for about 2 hours.
JOHN COX: Just goes to show you. We all
have our cross to bear.
STEVE: Well, this is it. Well anyway, the
whole day Iive been trying to -- well, when I'm not on
the phone with John-3 --
JOHN COX: Listen. It sounds like it was a
very successful day.
STEVE: Not according to your commanders
John-3 and Byron. It sounded like it was a big flop.
David and I, by the time -- he passed out. You know,
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because he, he was already working with more -- he told
me to go work with more people which I was doing.
JOHN COX: Between you and me and John-3 and
David, it was quite an improvement. Now, that doesn't
mean everybody is happy but ~-
STEVE: Yeah, I actually thought that now
that we're getting the momentum, you know, we're
getting going here, I mean, to tell you the truth, I
thought that was really going to be working well
JOHN COX: It is.
STEVE: It would have even been going
today but he up and passed
people. They look past mefurther
out. I talked to these
and say, well, Steve, we'
don't mind talking with you, but you know, you're not
going to be answering a whole lot for us.
JOHN COX: We're not going to keep you awake
tonight at all.
STEVE: I told them I wasn't easily insulted.
I mean. what are you going to do.
JOHN COX: You can't be thin skinned,
you?
STEVE: That's just it, but you know,
saying give me an opportunity to answer some of
things._ I've been around him, I've heard a lot
mean, I talked and talked and talked. I had as
somewhere between 30 and 46 sitting down.can
I'm
these
So, I
many as
JOHN COX; Is that right.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Oh great.7
STEVE: And then they got the idea John is
saying we're supposed to send 30, 40 out. I don't know
where - I says, look --
JOHN COX: That seems like a good idea.
STEVE: Well, yeah. I told them I agreed
with him. I didn't disagree with him atall. I
finally came to the place he was so adamant, I says,
what do you want me to grab one of these
neck and try to pull him out the door or
You know --
JOHN COX: No. they've got to
little Micah and a little Nam first. We
that.guys by the
something.
listen to a
understand
STEVE: Well, that's it. But --
JOHN COX: What I wanted to touch base with
you tonight, and I hope you and David both get a good
night's sleep tonight, is, I mentioned it to David and
I guess I mentioned it to you before, that we've got
several people that have either written letters, have
contacted us, and we wanted to pass the word to folks
in there.
STEVE: Well, that sounds good.
JOHN COX: Do you have something that you can
write with if I give you some names?
STEVE: Yeah, let me get a flashlight --
could someone come and hold a flashlight on over here.
Thanks. -- I'll write this on a piece of paper here.
Grab a pen. Maybe I'll grab this. Okay. Okay. what
do you got?
JOHN COX: Okay. I'll just give you the
names of the people in there and - that you can
contact and if they want to talk to me, I'll pass on
the messages. Okay? C
STEVE: All right.
JOHN COX: Jean Borst, B-0-R-8-T.
STEVE: Got it.
JOHN COX: I presume a female.
STEVE: Correct.
JOHN COX: Sandra Hardial, HA-RD-IA-L.
STEVE: What's the last name?
JOHN COX: H, as in Henry, A-RD, as in
dog --
STEVE: Harding?
JOHN COX: I-A-L.
STEVE: I-AL. Oh, Hardial.
JOHN COX: I believe she is British.
STEVE: Yeah, she would be.
JOHN COX: Sandra, maybe, I don't know.
STEVE: Right, I remember the first name.
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25JOHN COX: And there9
is another Brit, I
presume, Mike Malcolm, Livingston Mike Malcolm.
STEVE: Livingston, okay, Livingston.
JOHN COX: Well, we got something from a
brother that said Livingston Mike Malcolm. Melissa
Morrison. She should be young, I guess. A young girl.
STEVE: What's her name?
JOHN COX: Melissa Morrison.
STEVE: Okay. Melissa. Yeah.
JOHN COX: Got a couple messages for David
Thibodeaux, Marguerita Vega. I'm pronouncing that
right, huh? Scott Senobe. And Jeff Little. And I
gave you one last time, I guess
STEVE: Well, the more the merrier. I don't
mind.I
JOHN COX: Well, I know I told you that your
sister would be out here and aWayne Peterson --
STEVE: Wayne Peterson?
JOHN COX: Who would
STEVE: Brother. He
what? Not quite called but
JOHN COX: He didn't
that's all. He just called tobe Judy's brother.
called or something or
leave a phone number.
say hello, wants to make
sure everything is all right in there. That's all that
was about. But we've had no phone number so I don't
know. I don't know. We would have to try to contact
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him somehow and then Shirley Putterman called. That's
Judy's mom.
STEVE: Right .
JOHN COX: Okay. And, yes, I do have a
number for Wayne, 608 area codes for both of them.
That number for Wayne is on the Shirley Putterman call
and there was an Earl Peterson.
STEVE: He called too?
JOHN COX: Called from Madison, Wisconsin.
STEVE: When did they all call? Is this just
lately or -- "
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: Just lately. Okay.
JOHN COX: Yeah. And some of them just
trickle in. One of them was the 18th. But we have
phone numbers we can call back and give messages and
then -- I don't have it in front of me but I had the
one that we passed on to you the other night about some
student out in, somebody out in Hawaii that was a
student --
STEVE: Yeah. You had a number for him.
JOHN COX: But you said it didn't --
STEVE:_ Scheidelman or Schneidler.
JOHN COX: You said the name didn't mean
anything to you.
STEVE: I think I know who it is now but it
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I'm amazed that he would remember me.
JOHN COX: Well, he may
seen or heard your name in a news conference.
STEVE: What a shame.
to say hey, I don't
JOHN COX:
people that called
that they're supportive.11
is so long ago that
have seen your name,
I'm sure he's calling
believe that you're involved and --
Well, I'm imaging that most of the
are just calling to let folks know
STEVE: Is that it then? You don't have a
number for this 2
Hawaii, do you? V
JOHN COX: I could probably find one.
have it in front of me here. But, you know, if
is some kind of message, I'm sure that we could
back.
STEVE: Okay. Thanks.
JOHN COX: If you can round up any of
folks, I sure won't hassle you during the night
you get a good night's sleep.David Scheidler from the University of
I don't
there
get it
those
and let
STEVE: Okay. Let me do that. I'm going to
pass this around and have them, you know, whoever wants
to come here for the messages or to talk to you, you
know, that would be fine.
JOHN COX: How are things looking? Okay?
STEVE: Yeah, you know, there were until, you
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know he fell asleep and --
JOHN COX: well, maybe he'll get a good
night's sleep.
STEVE: Well, I'm hoping so. You know, I
actually -- he was awake right until, I think it was,
early afternoon. He never got any sleep, so --
JOHN COX: Oh, I know, he'll wake up about 2
o'clock in the morning then.
STEVE: Yeah. How many went out today? Five
it was, huh?
JOHN COX: Yeah, yeah. -
V STEVE: I know they weren't happy but I
thought we were starting to pick up some steam here
and, I mean, tell you the truth, I was quite surprised
about the reaction. Even at that time I'm down there
talking to people like constantly. Never let up.
JOHN COX: Yeah. We know you are. Maybe
we'll have another good day tomorrow.
STEVE: I'm hoping so. I really am.
JOHN COX: He talked to quite a few today or
you just had a chance to talk?
STEVE: You know, he was, like I was telling
John-3, if it wasn't for his wounds, you know, he wears
-- I mean, he was talking to you for so long --
JOHN COX: Well, he sure was on a roll.
STEVE: Oh, he was. He was. I got to hear a
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lot of what he was saying and, I mean --
JOHN COX: It sounded like he had plenty of
energy.
STEVE: Can you imagine the guy going up
against any scholar in the world. I mean, he can go on
for hours and hours without a Bible, in total context
of the chapter and logical progression and I mean, I
was hoping that while he was talking he was going to
get intc some physics or astronomy.
JOHN COX: You were, huh?
STEVE: Oh yeah. Because those are the
things I like to hear myself and it really gets deep
and --
JOHN COX: At 3 o'clock in the morning?
STEVE: That's why I was staying awake. I'm
telling you. I mean, I've had engineers and
psychologists with me to the guy and they walk away
saying where on earth did the guy get this information
and there's been a number that have really tried to hit
him hard and that's what I enjoy. I like to sit back
and observe and watch it. I mean --
JOHN COX: We got some more folks that he's
finally going to talk to tomorrow morning?
STEVE: Oh, yeah. I know he is. Because he
-- just before he passed out he was going to do that.
That's why when I talked to John-3, you know, he wanted
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all these people out. And, I, I'm like stuck, as I
say, I'm going to just keep on talking to him. Then
he'd call me back and forth to the phone all afternoon.
He meant well, I know. They're all anxious. I said,
the only thing I could do really, I suppose, is grab --
I mean I tried to wake him up. He wouldn't wake up for
anything. I said I suppose I could grab somebody and
try to yank them out of here but I wouldn't be able to
get them down the road, certainly, you know --
JOHN COX: Maybe it's best you get a good
night's sleep and let him get a good night's sleep and
maybe he can have, have some prayer sessions with some
folks in the morning and --
STEVE: And right after 9 we'll call or you
can call or --
JOHN COX: Sure. Sure.
STEVE: I'll tell you what though, honestly,
it's a pleasure to talk to you again, it really is.
I've always enjoyed spending some time with you and --
JOHN COX: Whether it's me or anyone else out
here, we're all working towards the same thing.
STEVE: Well, you know, there's different
tactics, different psychologies and what you do helps
me. I mean, you know, I'll tell you, it is hard. It
really is. And I'm just going to keep right on going
anyway but when I'm called back and forth to the phone
O O
15
every so many minutes and all that, it's like I'm
getting absolutely nowhere. And like I had 30 to 40
people together, called to the phone, got back, there
was less than half of them still sitting there. You
know, they didn't wait. So --
JOHN COX: Well, I just wanted to get with
you early this evening so you can get a chance to
contact some of these people and have them call me and
we can talk to them.
STEVE: Okay. I'll go pass this out. I'll
go try to find as many as I can. I'll hand them the
list and ask them if they can't get a hold of the rest
of the people.
JOHN COX: Okay, of there's some problems,
are you going to let me know or going to let one of
them let me know, or something?
STEVE: All right.
JOHN COX: You know.
STEVE: Yeah, for sure, I'll do that.
JOHN COX: And if you need me for something,
give me a call and if I'm not here, one of the other
fellows will be here to talk to you.
I STEVE: I appreciate it. I really -- I'll
tell you the truth, do you know why all those people
came out? Well, you know, he's a -- well, he explained
it'to you on the phone but it's a person like yourself,
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I mean, whether you believe it or not, at least you
have the politeness and the decency, I mean, it's hard
on a person like you. I know it would be. Especially
if you don't buy it. I really - I sympathize with
anybody that would sit for hours. If you --
JOHN COX: Well, we've all been very patient.
STEVE: Maybe you can keep a reserve in the
back of your mind when you start seeing things happen.
I'm not saying they're going to happen immediately, but
I don't know, I see something to these prophesies, so
JOHN COX: Hope so.
STEVE: Oh, yeah, you know that or I'd have
been out of here -- I'd have flow out of here long ago.
But anyway --
JOHN COX: Sure, sure. But give us a call
and see if you can run down some of those folks for us.
STEVE: Okay. We'll do it.
JOHN COX: Okay, thanks a lot.
STEVE: No problem.
JOHN COX: Appreciate it.
STEVE: bye. .
'kii'ki'
JUDY: H8110.
JOHN
JUDY
' JOHN
you hold on?
JUDY:
JOHN
JUDY
me?
JOHN
JUDY
JOHN
know whatCOX :
Hi
COX:
Oh,
COX:
Yeah, I
COX:
Really,
COX:17
Hello.
I got something in my mouth.
I can't hear you too well. Can
you want me to call back?
How is that?
can hear you. Can you hear
Not hardly at all.
oh.
Areyou on the -- shoot -- I don't
the problem is. Who is this?
JUDY: Judy.
JOHN COX: Judy, are you on the regular phone
there at Steven's?
JUDY
Steve, is this
JOHN
JUDY
JOHN
JUDY
JOHN
JUDYIs this the regular phone, Steve?
the regular phone, he wants to know.
COX: I got you.
You got me now?
COX: I got you.
Hear me all right?
COX:Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry.
I'm supposed to call you and get a
message from my mom and brother and dad.
JOHN COX: Okay. What is your name again?
JUDY: Judy.
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18
JOHN COX: Judy. Judy, Judy, Judy -- oh,
that Judy. Let me see. I've got to believe that I'd
already passed that thing on to you.
JUDY: Uh-huh. When did it come in?
JOHN COX: I had an old message that I may
have passed it on to Steve or to you. Okay, let me do
that. I've got several of them here all right.
JUDY: For who? Me?
JOHN COX: Yeah. Shirley Putt-Kerman.
JUDY: Yeah. Put-Kelman.
JOHN COX: Put¢Kelman and both, and Wayne
Peterson. They've called several times.
JUDY: They have?
JOHN COX: Several times to, you know,
express their concern, see how you are doing, and left
their phone numbers.
JUDY: What did they say?
JOHN COX: And, well, all I have is, you
know, express willing to cooperate, and talk to Steve
and you and then got a message from Earl Peterson up in
Madison. Just was calling for information about you.
And, let me see, Shirley, another message - we got a
bunch of them. Advised that she had a message for you.
Said that she loves you. Didn't want to record a
message but just wanted to pass on that she loves you
and she's praying. And then, we had another message
19
also from Wayne, you know, same message. Just Wanted
to pass them on, kiddo. How are you feeling?
' JUDY
JOHN
JUDY-
JOHN
JUDY
JOHN
JUDY
JOHN
number one guy
JUDY
JOHN
JUDY
JOHN
JUDY
I going to say
down or do you
JOHN
message to any
JUDYGreat.
COX: Are you? That's good.
Yeah. Who is this?
COX: JOhn.
You're John-3 or -2 or -1?
COX: One.
You're the number one. Good.
COX: No. I'm just John-1. I'm not the
I'm only kidding.
COX: But you are feeling better?
Yeah.
COX: Oh, super.
So how is this going to work now? Am
something and you're going to write it
want me --
COX: If you want me to pass on a
of them, give me the word and I'll --
Yeah, I do. I have something to say
to my brother and --
JOHN
JUDY: The
be combined and then
JOHNCOX: -- write it down. Go ahead.
message to my mom and brother can
my dad is separate.
COX: Hang on -- on Wayne. Okay.
20
JUDY: Okay, you ready?
JOHN COX: You bet.
JUDY: All right. Dearest Mom and brother
Wayne and family -- you tell me when you're ready --
JOHNCOX: Go ahead.
JUDY: Thanks for calling. Are you ready?
Take shorthand?
JOHNCOX: Okay. Thanks for calling.
JUDY: Please remember what they did to
Christ 2000 years ago. Okay? Got it?
JOHN
JUDY
trust that you
Mayanah -- and
is sounds like
JOHN
JUDY
consonant.
JOHN
JUDY
JOHN
JUDY
She's adorableCOX: Umahum.
I will be detained for a while. So I
will take care of your granddaughter
her name is spelled MA-Y-A-N-A-H. But
Min-
COX: Do it again, will you.
Okay. There is an A after every
COX: M-A-Y-A-N-A-H.
Yeah. Sounds like Mina, M-I-N-A.
COX: Yeah.
Okay. - for me until this is over.
and you will love her -- just don't
spoil her too much. I have that in a note already.
They already know that. Okay. And then --
JOHNCOX: Hang on.
I
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92
I21
JUDY: -- just write comma and then H-A, you
know, ha, something like that, ha.
JOHN
JUDY
have to say ha
JOHN
JUDY
David's, our!
you ready?
JOHN
Go ahead.COX: Got you.
She's going to get spoiled anyway so I
COX: It always happens, doesn't it?
Yeah. Okay. You'll be seeing
side of the story and then quote -- are
COX: Hang on. I don't take shorthand.
JUDY: You'll be seeing David's our! side of
the story, "the truth" -- no offense John --
JOHN
JUDY
JOHN
JUDY
worry. I love
make you write
JOHN
JUDY:
JOHN
JUDY:
JOHN
Wayne. Okay.
JUDYCOX: Okay. Go ahead.
-- soon. <
cox: Okay.
Trust in God. Study the Bible. Don't
you forever. Judy. I don't want to
a whole book here.
COX: Thanks. Okay.
indiscernible! and then my dad.
COX: And then for Wayne?
Well, see that was --
COX: Okay. I've got that. For Mom and
Yeah, and, you know, granddaughter,
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niece, they can figure it out, you know.
JOHN COX: You got it. All right. For your
father.
JUDY: My dad. Dearest Dad -- sort of the
same thing -- Thanks for calling. Remember what they
did to Christ 2000 years ago. Same thing. You will be
seeing David's our! side of the story, "the truth"
soon. Don't worry, trust in God. Can you hear that in
the background?
JOHN COX: I just hear somebody talking. I
can't --
JUDY: That's the speaker.
JOHN COX: I didn't know if it was somebody
in there talking.
JUDY: No. Okay. Don't worry. Trust in
God. You'll be seeing your granddaughter soon -- I
don't know if you know how to spell this word. I really
don't know how to spell it.
JOHN COX: Hang on. Hang on. Okay.
JUDY: You've got, You'll be seeing your
granddaughter soon.
JOHN COX: You bet.
JUDY: _And then, this is funny, put, comma
Poopykins Number 2. You figure it out. I don't know
how to spell it either.
JOHN COX: Say it again.
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25JUDY: Poopy-kins. Like, you know.
JOHN COX: I've got you.
JUDY: Poopykins Number 2.
JOHN
JUDY: That's how I spelled it.
JOHN COX: Number 2. Whatever that
he'll know.23
COX: POO-P-Y-KI-N-S Number 2.
means,
JUDY: He knows. That what he still calls me
and I'm plenty out of that stage.
JOHN COX: Okay.
JUDY: Okay. ¢Then just, I love you, Judy.
JOHN COX: Okay.
JUDY: Can you read to me what you've got?
JOHN
putting something down here. Dearest Mom and
Wayne and family, Thanks for calling. Please
what they did to Christ 2000 years ago. I'll
detained for a while so I trust that you will
Mayanah for her --
JUDY: Oh,
JOHN COX:
this is over. .
JUDY: Wait. For me;
JOHN COX: Yeah.
JUDY: For you, for me.
JOHNCOX: You bet. Hang on, I'm just
brother
remember
be
take of
wait. Your granddaughter Mayanah.
care of Mayanah for you until
COX: Well, I have written down "for
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her" but that's for you, until this is over.
JUDY: Okay.
JOHN COX: She's adorable and you will love
her - just don't spoil her too much. Ha. Ha. You'll
be seeing David's our! side of the story, "the truth"
soon. Trust in God. Study the Bible. Don't worry. I
love you forever. Judy. How's that?
JUDY: Very good.
JOHN COX: How's that. The other one, to
your dad. Dearest Dad, Thanks for calling. Remember
what they did to Christ 200 years ago. You'll be
seeing David's our! side of the story soon. Trust --
JUDY: Don't forget - "the truth."
JOHN COX: -~ Trust in God.
JUDY: Don't worry. Trust in God.
JOHN COX:A Hang on. Hang on. Trust in God.
You'll be seeing your granddaughter soon. Poppykins
Number 2. I love you, Judy
JUDY: Poopykins.
JOHN UOX: Well, P-O-O-PYK-I-N-S Number 2,
JUDY: Okay. Yeah. He'll know it, if you
say 'kins, I guess. _
JOHN cox= Okay?
JUDY: All right. Appreciate it. You got
their phone numbers? Right?
JOHN COX: You betcha. You want to -- do you
25
have them off the top of your head? I've got your
mom's 608/635-4428.
top of myJUDY
head.
JOHN
JUDY
JOHN
JUDY
JOHN
JUDY
JOHN
JUDY
JOHN
JUDY
all worked out
JOHN
JUDY
JOHN
what I can see
JUDYYeah. I don't have my dad's off the
COX: I got it. 608/221-1775.
Exact1y._
COX: How's that?
That's it. Okay.
COX: And you're feeling better?
Yeah.
COX: Sounding pretty good.
I feel fine. Tell them I feel fine.
COX: You sound pretty good.
Yeah, we're just waiting to get this
COX: Hey, aren't we all.
Yeah.
COX; Everything went well today from
and --
You know what though, hey, that guy
was getting pretty obnoxious and aggressive towards the
end.
JOHN COX: Who's that?
JUDY: Byron.
JOHNcox= Why?
JUDY: On the, over the speakers. He was
i
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26
like, I mean, David sent out 7 people, you know, were
apprehensive already to go out and then he is like a
tiger, I want 30 people out. We're going to mow down
the south side of - you ran out indiscernible! your
head up - he didn't say that but that's what he meant.
And he was just screaming. Anyway. It was kind of
wild.
JOHN COX: It will all be over soon, won't
it, and I just wanted to tell you when Vicky came out
she was taken over to the Hillsboro Hospital.
JUDY: Oh, she was. Yeah. She seemed kind
of --
JOHN COX: They wanted to make sure that they
got, I guess, an IV in her and get some -- make sure
they got some liquids in her and take care of her.
JUDY: Oh, yeah. She did not want to go out
at all.
JOHN COX: Well, from what David told me, she
had been pretty ill. You know, really bedridden.
JUDY: Yeah. She had some kind of high or
low blood pressure. -
JOHN COX: She probably needs a pretty
complete physical so that's what she was getting.
JUDY : Okay .
JOHN COX: Better there than someplace else.
X JUDY: Yeah.
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JOHN COX: Yeah. Well, listen, I'm glad to
talk to you.
JUDY: Okay. Well, I've got somebody else
here for you too.
JOHN COX: Great.
JUDY: Okay. Appreciate it. Take care,
'bye.
ROSE: Hello John Number 1.
JOHN COX: WhOS this?
ROSE: This is Rose. Maurice and Melissa's
mother. ,
JOHN COX: Hang on. Let me get the right
message here now.
ROSE: Okay. I'll hold the phone.
JOHN COX: I've got a stack of themf
ROSE: You have?
JOHN COX: Yeah. A bunch of different people
_ _| Q -called in. Okay, I've got a message -- and your name
is Rose?
ROSE: That's right.
JOHN COX: You sound like you're a Brit.
ROSE: Pardon? -
JOHN COX: You sound like you're a Brit.
ROSE: I do. Wow.
JOHN COX: This is from the British Vice-
Consul in Houston and it was a message to Melissa from
28
her grandmother and it's, in quotes, we are longing for
you to come out safely and to see you. I will look
after you. Your cousin, Nicola --
Grandma.
want delivered?ROSE
JOHN
ROSE
JOHN
ROSE
JOHNNicola.
COX: All I have is Nicola.
Yeah.
COX:
Okay
COX:-- is anxious to see you. Love,
Do you have any message that you
ROSE: Well, that she'll see her soon and she
is looking forward to seeing them too.
JOHN COX: who is -- what's this?
ROSE; Melissa is looking forward to seeing
them all soon and she will do it and for them not to
worry. It is all written in the Book.
write this down
written inJOHN COX: Hang on, hang on. I'm trying to
ROSE
JOHN
ROSE
JOHN
ROSE
the
JOHNOkay. --
COX:
Say
COX:
Say
Book.
COX:seeing them soon.
Okay.
she's
What did you say about the BooK?fine, she's great and --
not to worry what's happened, it's
Okay.
29
ROSE: So there's no concern for me there.
There's no concern for me there at all. Is that the
end of message.
JOHN COX: Yeah. And you're Rose's mom?
ROSE: Melissa's mom.
JOHN COX: I'm sorry - you're Melissa's
mother. Okay. Now. Let me just -- I haven't talked
to you before, I have? Do you think I've talked to you
before?
ROSE: I don't think so, no.
JOHN COX: Okay. I'll pass that on and, how
old is Melissa, about 9, 10, something like that?
ROSE: N0, 6.
JOHN COX: 6. Okay. Let me make something
perfectly clear to you, if you didn't already know it,
okay, because I haven't talked to you -- have you
talked to any of our fellows out here before?
ROSE: Well, yes.
JOHN COX: Do you know who you talked to?
ROSE: I think it was the other John.
JOHN COX: Okay. As long as, we just want to
make sure that you're doing well, you're healthy,
Melissa is doing well. She's healthy.
ROSE: ~Yeah.
JOHN COX: You don't have any medical
problems that we should be aware of?
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all, no.
JOHN COX: That you are free to leave, and
it's strictly your decision not to leave.
ROSE: That is true.
JOHN
that, you
ROSE: That I
JOHN COX: --
for. All you got to do
you'll get some medical
attention and take care
ROSE: Yeah.COX: Okay, fine, and you understand
know, if you want to leave --
can do that at any time I want.
you can and you'll be cared
is come down the road and
attention and you'll get other
of you.
JOHN COX: I just wanted to make sure that
you understood that and you can rest assured that we
will make a contact with the British Consulate in
Houston because we've got the phone number and get the
word to them that not only is Melissa healthy but that
you are and we'll pass on what you said.
ROSE: Okay. Thank you very much.
JOHN COX: Okay. You take care of yourself.
ROSE: Sure.
to speak to you.There's someone else who wants
JOHN COX: Fine.
JUDY: Okay, 'bye-bye.
SANDRA: Hello
JOHN COX: Hi
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SANDRA: Hi.
JOHN COX: Who is this?
SANDRA: This is Sandra. Sandra Hardial.
JOHN COX: Sandra. I haven't spoken to you
before.
SANDRA: NO.
JOHN COX: Let me find the message that we
have for you. Boy, sounds like Steven has been out
working. Rounding everybody up. I have a message.
Lloyd Hardial called from Manchester, England -- and
I've got the phone number - to enquire about you. And
he's your brother?
SANDRA: That's right. Yes.
JOHN COX: It doesn't say. That's why I'm
just trying to presume. And he said that your mother,
Una, sends her wishes that everything is all right and
that she loves you. And so, all I want to know is
there a message that you have to be returned, because
we have the phone number, 226-9550, and we'll be happy
to call Lloyd and give him a message if you have one.
SANDRA: All right. when will you be doing
that? -
_ JOHN COX: Probably in the morning.
SANDRA: All right. Okay. --
JOHN COX: And we realize there's a time
difference over there.
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25SANDRA:v
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Yeah, they're 6 hours ahead.
JOHN COX: Yeah, I've been over there before,
SANDRA: Just say that I'm thinking of them
as well and just tell my mom that she's got to keep on
striving on with the weaknesses in her body and I'm
thinking indiscernible! and my father --
JOHN COX: Hang on. Hang on. I can't write
too fast now.
fatherSANDRA:
JOHN COX
SANDRA:
JOHN COX
SANDRA:
JOHN COX
brother and father
SANDRA:
JOHN COX
SANDRA:
JOHN COX
SANDRA:
JOHN COX
SANDRA:
JOHN COX
SANDRA:
JOHN COXOkay.
Tell mom to --
Keep working on her legs. '
Okay.
I'm thinking of my brother and my
And you're thinking of your
Yes, and my auntie.
And who?
My Auntie Joyce.
Hang on. And Auntie Joyce. Okay.
And lots of love.
Pardon me.
Lots of love,
Lots of love.
And that's it.
Let me ask you something. All of
33
the people that we're contacting in there, first of
all, we want to make sure that you don't have any
medical problems that we should be aware of, or if you
do have some that we should be aware of, we would be
prepared to give you some medication, some treatment,
when you come out. »Do you have any problems at all?
SANDRA: No, not whatsoever.
JOHN COX: Not on any medication or anything
like that? Y
SANDRA: No.
JOHN COX: Okay. And that you are in there
on your own free will and that you are aware that you
are free to leave anytime that you want and that we'll
welcome you right down the road.
SANDRA:
JOHN COX
SANDRA:
JOHN COX
SANDRA:
JOHN COX:
SANDRA:
JOHN COX
SANDRA:
JOHN COX
SANDRA:Yeah.
And you're aware of that.
Yeah, I am.
Okay, fine. Anything else?
No, that's it.
Anything I can answer for you?
I'm okay.
Okay.» I enjoyed talked to you.
Thanks very much.
Bye-bye.
Bye.
~I:**i~k
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phone ringing!
JOHN COX: Hello.
STEVE: Hello, John.
JOHN COX: Hey. I thought you were down for
the count.
STEVE: Were you?
JOHN COX: No, I was in the other room.
» STEVE: Oh, you were, okay. Yeah -- no, he
I
said he was in the other room. David's here, sitting
{right by my.
JOHN cox= He'is?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: I thought he was asleep.
STEVE: He probably got a few winks. He
still looks tired. but, I doubt that he probably got
even that much.
JOHN COX: You sound like you just woke up.
92 STEVE: I was just laying down there for just
a few moments.
JOHN COX: Well, I got to talk to Sherry and
Judy and Melissa Morrison's mom, and Sandra Hardial.
So, that was nice.
STEVE: Good.
JOHN COX: Maybe talk to some of the others
tomorrow, I guess.
STEVE: Yeah, there -- apparently some must
O I
35
have turned in already. I passed it out to a couple of
people to get it around so.
A JOHN COX: Well, it was good to talk to some
of them.
STEVE: Yeah, David, he's got a couple of
questions for you, I think.
JOHN cox. Okay.
STEVE: Here he is.
JOHN COX: All right.
DAVID: Did you get a good night's rest?
JOHN COX: Well, a good day's rest.A
DAVID: A good day's rest.
JOHN COX: Yeah. Start losing track of night
and day.
DAVID: Yeah, we tried to sleep a little bit
the day after going all night with these people and, of
course, I kept dreaming about having this radio on all
day long.
JOHN COX: I thought you dreamt about meeting
me down that road.
DAVID: No, not yet. It's coming.
JOHN COX: Good.-
DAVID: Do us a favor.
JOHN COX: Yes, sir.
DAVID: It's very distracting, you know, I'm
fixing to go to another session with some people who
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36
will be out in the morning and, do me a favor, see if
you can get John Dolan and these guys to kind of cut
that radio out. We've heard it. We've heard each one
of those things at least, what eight or nine or ten
times, or. I mean, you know, it's more effective for
these people to get the last of these scriptures down
than it is to hear what they've already heard over and
over again. We haven't yet found the book of John
Dolan in the scriptures yet. So --
JOHN COX: Not yet, huh.
DAVID: John 1- is it John-3?
JOHN COX: Who, me?
DAVID: No, no. -- oh -- this one guy you've
got there. What's his last name, Steve. John-3, I
mean, he's a finger up the gill, you know what I mean.
JOHN COX: What's he do, strike a nerve or
something?
DAVID: I mean --
JOHN COX: I've never heard that one before.
DAVID: This guy seems to -- it's hard to
explain.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh. He's a good o1 boy-
though.
DAVID: I don't know.
JOHN COX: Maybe you're just taking him the
wrong way. You don't know?
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DAVID: Well, that's serious if we take him
the wrong way.
JOHN COX: It is, it is. He's well meaning
though.
DAVID: oh, well.
JOHN COX: You going to be up tonight then?
DAVID: Yeah, all night long. Just like last
night.
JOHN COX: Okay. Okay.
DAVID: See if you can't have him back in the
back getting refreshments for you all. We don't want
to talk to him no more.
JOHN COX: Okay. Let me talk to some folks
and I guess you're going to be talking to some folks.
DAVID: You and Dolan, you know, we'll work
this out. I'll personally put in a statement that I
want y'all guys to get a raise.
JOHN COX: Oh, terrific.
DAVID: But, you know, like I said, we must
have our understanding and if we don't have that, like
I said, it's going to be catastrophe. I can't
understand that, okay, if the President was to send you
overseas on a mission, right, you know, a serious FBI
mission, and you know, you're dealing with another
nation, other laws and all this kind -- it's top
secret, all right. He has to brief you the last few
38
steps before you go, right?
JOHN COX: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay, so the thing of it is that, you
know, that is a very serious matter for you as an FBI
agent considering everything that is involved. So the
same as here. You know, we don't just teach the good
ol' Gospel, you know, the old four square thing you've
heard for years and years. You know, the fields are
more in depth than that. And, you know, we've been
talking about it. I don't want to belabor the issue
here tonight.
JOHN COX: Sure. Yeah. You got me last
night. Didn't you.
DAVID: Well, no. The thing of it is, is
that we're both gotten. Aren't we?
JOHN COX: Sure.
DAVID: I mean. We both stand before the
same Father, don't we?
JOHN COX: Well, I want to give you the
opportunity to do what you want to do this evening, or
this morning, or --
DAVID: What I've got to do so that we can
get more people out to you.
JOHN COX: Sure.
DAVID: How did Rita, how did Rita act when
she came around? Was she nervous?
39
JOHN COX: Well, I didn't see her.
DAVID: Oh, you never got to see her.
JOHN COX: No, I didn't see her when she came
out and as far as I know, everybody came out and there
wasn't any problems and everything worked well.
DAVID: Well, those five people that came out
today, that's on your credit. Don't put the stars next
to John-3's name. He didn't do -- as a matter of fact,
he almost hindered it.
JOHN COX: We all share. We all share.
We're all part of the same big team. A
DAVID: You caught the fish on that one.
Don't tell no fish stories.
JOHN COX: We're all part of the same team.
1.
DAVID: All he brought back home was the bait
on his hook. I mean, that's -- let's be real. I mean,
the guy needs to go back to school.
JOHN COX: Well, we have different
personalities but we have the same purpose in mind, to
get things done and --
DAVID: Well, so do I. So do I. But you
guys can't fight amongst yourselves over there, can
you?
JOHN COX: We try not to.
DAVID: Okay. So we can't -- so if I'm going
to be on your side too, to the degree that you're
O O
4 o
trying to obtain the same purpose, then I can't be
fighting with y'all either.
I JOHN COX: Well, let me talk to some people
and I'll give you a call back.
DAVID: All right. And if you want to call
back and get in on the study, you're more than welcome
tO.
JOHN COX: I hear you.
DAVID: Okay. All right. Thanks, John.
JOHN COX: Sure.
DAVID: Bye. ~
JOHN COX: Bye
i-*'k'k*
JOHN COX:. Hello.
STEVE: Hello, John.
JOHN COX: Hey Steve.
STEVE: I can't even keep a straight face
here. Listen to this. Of course it's -- sounds like a
Catholic monastery or something.
JOHN COX: What is it?
STEVE: Well, your friends are playing some
unique music here; I suppose now it's going to be a
psychology game or something.
JOHN COX: It's over the --
STEVE: They must have borrowed this from
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41
Siberia.
JOHN COX: -- PA system?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Is it music or voices or what?
STEVE: You know what it is, of course. You
were there when they chose it, I'm sure, but, anyway --
JOHN COX: I'm not out there privy to what's
going on out there.
STEVE; Let me just share something with you?
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: After all these years of studying all
these religions, listening to the philosophies of men,
in the Bible, in Isaiah 65, it talks about a hundred-
year period where those that don't do Oods way in the
final days, they take the mercy that's offered by all
the prophets, what they stated. They get to live a
hundred years of no intercession of God, no holy
angels, all the thoughts of men, they will do unto each
other whatever comes into the minds of men. The tides
of evil will not be held back. Chapter 66 gets into
more detail. All the nightmares, all the things that
men have created through their existence on this earth
becomes a reality for them. *This kind of thing that
they're playing for us right now, Halloween will become
a reality for hundred years and men can't die to get
away from it. So you know, what is happening to us
42
now, we accept it. We probably deserve it because of
our lives, but at the same time, I'm telling you the
truth, you know, it'll become a reality for people for
a hundred years.
JOHN COX: Well, the only thing I can do is
pass on what you're telling me. And let --
STEVE: Okay. You know, whatever comes, you
know, it's fine. Really, it's fine. My concern is not
for myself, here now, not in the flesh. My concern is
for people that are involved in this kind of thing
right here. This country of America that I've loved
all my life, like all the prophets talk about. The one
great nation. A merchandizing nation in the final
days. Very powerful. Very strong. Based on freedom
of speech, religion, all that. It's going to repudiate
those values and it's going to be brought down as an
example to all the world. It's not something I chose,
something I like, but it's in the prophesies and it's
all called Assyria, but there was no Assyria in the
days of Ezekiel. It had long passed away in 620 B.C.
and Ezekiel wasn't written until 570 B.C. So a nation
in the final days has an eagle as it's symbol that
overspreads the lands. So we're finally here. It's
the most powerful nation on earth but all the prophets
talk, in the final days, what's going to happen to this
nation, so highly blessed.
/-9292.. .C,O O
43
JOHN COX: Steve, can you tell me something
that would facilitate me convincing some people to
knock off what is going on now. I mean, I can try.
STEVE: What are you suggesting? I don't
mind --
JOHN COX: I'm not suggesting --
STEVE: If they'd like, they can turn it on
louder and leave it on morning, noon and night. I
mean, it won't have any effect other than people --
it's just going to ruin my opportunity --
JOHN COX: I talked to David, you know, and
he said --
STEVE: He just told me now. Just right now.
He said no one is coming out. Nobody.
JOHN COX: Yeah. Well, I talked to him
earlier and he -- about, I guess there were some
recording on then and he said, you know, we've heard
the recordings nine or ten time, or whatever and see if
you can get somebody to turn them off. I was going to
check on that and then you called and said it's not
recordings, it's something else on now, so --
STEVE: Yeah. -
JOHN COX: So all I can do is go talk to
people --
STEVE: There is --
end of tape!