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OLIVER GYARFAS, SR., Q; Q1;
92 v.
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, gg al.
£1aintitfs' Eirst Request For Production
and Inspection of Documents
Responsive Documents from
San Antonio file 89B-SA38851
Sub us QM gm D03 em
excised copy
*-
l_ ~_l;7j°
~~n£ -_0 .
QELQIION COQQS
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pi.~.,_
0 0
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
I
TAPE #225
4/14/93 - 4/15/93
9=41 P.M. - 1:20 A.M.
v.4-nQ FA
Tape 225!- 2
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You've gone through the
school system. How did you do it when you've been up
so many hours and then yet you've got to put together a
halfway decent contract --
DUANE: When I was going through college?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- or papers or -- I tell
you what. I mean I'm, I'm burned out and whatever I'm
saying I'm going to wake up tomorrow morning and I'm
going to -- did I talk to Duane? Oh, I guess I
DUANE: It may just seem like a dreamdid.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And what was the guy trying
to fish out of me or what -- how was he getting
intimidate - incriminate myself or what was he
DUANE: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, I'm aware
you know, a lot of times when -- I mean, you'reme to
up to?
that,
you've got a device there, you're clicking it off and
on it seems like when you either want someone to hear
if they're not hearing now or you're recording or if
you're not -- I mean you're recording the whole
conversation I'm sure. Maybe you can explain to me
sometime how the legalities of all this work. Is it
all admissible from yourself? Can you chop it up or
what?
DUANE: Is what admissible?
vi__ /..
IQ x
3
STEVE SCHNEIDER: There it goes -- what, what
were you doing just there?
DUANE: Well, that, that was Dick moving the
chair. Yeah, he's, he's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You might let him know it's
real obvious, though, it is. I don't know if in the
future if you listen or whatever, how you
set up, but it's, it's obvious, you know,
certain times of the conversation you ask
questions, you want certain an -- certain
information, you know. There's obviouslyguys have it
that at
certain
bits of
-~ you're
doing something there. What are you doing? Can you
tell me? R
DUANE: I will tell -- I will answer any, any
question to you as honestly and straightforward as I
can.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Tell me about it then.
DUANE: All right. It should be no secret to
you that there, there are usually two or three people
here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
DUANE: We have two or three agents and, and
some other people. You've met almost every one of
them. It's, it's the way we operate in any
situation --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But all the phone
§ -if~~' ;
4
conversations are recorded, aren't they?
DUANE: I can't answer that question.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, then that - well,
they are then. That's your way of saying yes.
DUANE: You realize I'll go back to, to, to
the first thing I said is that that back on February
28th the only person that had been charged with a crime
was Vernon Howell and it's just -- to me, when, when I
go back to the basics, he was charged with a crime.
Either, either by a complaint or an indictment, but
that's just a charge. And he would have gone in the
court system and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But he never knew though,
Duane. Honestly. The guy never
DUANE: But I guess in
happened since then and, and the
you've said, you know, what I've
had nothing to do with obviouslyknew.
looking at what
fact is that from what
heard you say is you
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you'll find that to
be true. I mean, you know, I really believe that.
DUANE: I just hope that nothing happens
between now and whenever David finally decides to come
out -- happens that will make things worse for you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I don't see that --
DUANE: And, and circling back --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't see how or why it
s~'IQ5
would.
DUANE: And I'm circling back to what I
clearly have said -- in my opinion, what you've done is
you've hitched your wagon to David Koresh -- or to
Vernon Howell, whichever you prefer. That's why I, I,
I gave you my, my, my fundamental belief that each of
us individually is responsible for our own behavior and
we cannot give responsibility for our own decisions to
someone else. I've seen many people try that in, in,
in what is almost like a previous life.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Would you give me an
example of what you're trying to say. I, I know you're
trying to say something to me, but for the life of me
I'm missing it.
DUANE: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Maybe I'm slow these days.
DUANE: Well, sometimes the word
pusillanimous comes to mind in listening to you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Say what? What kind of an
animal was that you were describing?
DUANE: No, it's, it's an adjective,
pusillanimous. I'm sure you have a dictionary there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, it's, it's definitely
a new one to me.
DUANE: Yeah, okay. Well, you've got a
college degree, don't you?
s-If,-92 92
Q Q
6
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think so.
DUANE: In Theology? '
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In Religion.
DUANE: In Religion. I think it would have
been in there somewhere. I guess I'm concerned that
you do seem to be an intelligent person, yet as I've
seen many other people do in my, in my previous life,
you seem to be trying to give responsibility -- to
abdicate, to give up responsibility for your own
decisions and your own behavior. It's, it's kind of a
truism. You can't do it. I see it happen in, in, in
marriages, I see it happen --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't see that I'm doing
that, Duane. I, I really don't, that I'm trying to do
such a thing.
DUANE: Okay. You see, I'm not going to, I'm
not going to -¥ I don't want to argue with you or tell
you what you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. In fact, if you could
explain -- I mean I really don't see what you're saying
to be true.
DUANE: I'm kind of using, I'm trying to use
the Socratic method here that simply asks some
questions and, and presents some, some possibilities
and hypotheses and let you see if you think it applies
to your life. It's kind of like in marriage therapy.
~.-4You can't tell people what to do. You can help them7
decide what's, what's been effective for them.
You know, because you seem to be doing
something that may be self-destructive. That has put
you in a much worse situation. If, in fact, you had
nothing to do with any of the gunfire, Vernon Howell
was the only one who had an arrest warrant, you have
now been under siege for seven weeks, have had the
burden of, of managing this whole operation thrust upon
you, and it seems to me - this is my perspective --
that, that what has put you in that position is your
decision to let David Koresh's decisions run your life.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's true for every
individual here and I -- you know what? In a court of
law I won't -- there's a lot of things I -- truth for
me is something I've always pursued, always. And
number one, I've always been concerned about how I got
here, where I'm going. *
DUANE: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And that's been the bottom
line since the early '70s. So I mean I'm here not
because of any other reason but to understand what I
can do best for humanity.
DUANE: All right. Let me - I, I know
you're tired and I, I don't want to drag this on, but
let me leave you with two thoughts. After what you
v-~lIIC" Q
8
said, you know, you're wondering how you got here and,
and where you're going. Let me leave you with the
thought that it is a truism that we're each responsible
for our own behavior and we cannot give that away.
Many people try to, you know, my husband, my
wife, my, my, my boss. That, that, I think, is a
truism. And a second thing, let me ask you what people
were asking when George Bush was still president. To,
to assess what you, what you want to do now. Are you
better off now than you were seven years ago? Before
you came in with David Koresh? I mean, look at what's
happening. Just ask yourself those questions. And
maybe we'll have a chance to, to talk tomorrow or the
next day.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DUANE: All right. You're going, you're
going to have that ready to go - come out no later
than 8:45. K
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm going to try to make
some kind of an -- a feeble attempt to I would imagine.
DUANE: All right. If it is prepared before
then, don't wait till then. Let's get this done as
soon as possible so it doesn't interfere with the
dailies and drag on and, and we don't -- because we
don't want DeGuerin to have to leave and leave this
sitting -- you know, not being picked up. Okay?92
1
viSTEVE
DUANE :
STEVE
DUANE:
STEVE
Conne
SCOTT:
CLINT:
Clint. Is David
SCOTT:
CLINT:
SCOTT:
CLINT:
about Steven?
SCOTT:
in regards to Mr
CLINT:
that question?
SCOTT:
CLINT:O
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
Okay. Hasta maana.
SCHNEIDER: Okay. Talk to you later.
Bye.
SCHNEIDER: Good-bye.
ction broken.!
t i i t i-
It's Scott, who's this?
Hello, Scott. This is - my name's
around?
No, he's not.
Did he leave or what?
Not yet.
Oh, he hasn't left yet. Okay. How
Well, he wanted me to ask you if it's
. Zimmerman.
Steven wanted you to answer and ask
Yes.
That's, that's one of the questions,
yeah. But I had some other questions I wanted to
address to David or if not David, to Steven.
SCOTT:
he can come to t
right now.Uh-huh. Okay. Hold on, I'll see if
he phone. He's -- he was kind of busy
~.-4 , .9 10
CLINT: Yeah. It won't, won't take long, but
it's just some things that, you know, he and David have
brought up that
my own mind.
SCOTT
CLINT
Long
SCOTT
CLINT
SCOTT
CLINT
SCOTTI'm just trying to get an answer to in
Okay. Hold on.
Okay. Good enough.
pause.!
Hello, Clint?
Yes.
This is Scott again.
Yeah, Scott.
I tried to wake him up. He had
mentioned that he didn't want to be bothered unless it
was extremely important.
CLINT: who was this now?
SCOTT
CLINT
SCOTT
with you before
CLINT
know. There is
point out to us
the seven seals
SCOTT-Steve.
. This was Steve?
And he said he would get in touch
quarter to nine tomorrow morning.
Well, okay. We can do that, you
a number of things they have tried to-
in the past and -- you know, concerning
and --
Yeah --
CLINT: -- and I've kind of been doing some
research on it and I was hoping maybe he could clarify
~.~¢
, 17O O
ll
some of these points for me. You know, they, they've
always indicated a willingness if we had questions in
these areas to clarify it. And --
SCOTT: Right --
CLINT: -- that's, that's what I'd like to
do.
SCOTT: Can you give me a moment. I can take
some -- give a - you know, write some stuff down and
give it to them later. Give him a message, because,
you know, he doesn't really get much sleep, you know.
CLINT: Yeah. What's, what's David doing
now?
SCOTT; I don't know. He's probably sleeping
too.
CLINT: Is that right? You know, you know,
before they've been pretty willing to talk at night and
I, I guess, guess I assumed this is the time they were
more comfortable talking td us than during the day.
SCOTT: Yeah --
CLINT: Now, have you found that to be the
case? It, it seems like it to me?
SCOTT: Yeah. Well, see, he, he stays up
pretty much.
CLINT: Yeah.
SCOTT: And then like you said before --
CLINT: That's got to be tough staying up all
v ~_-§O C
the time, huh?
SCOTT:12
-- it's tough -- yeah, it is.
There's times when he just shuts off.
CLINT:
SCOTT:
into like -- it's
CLINT:Yeah.
You know, and it's like he just goes
almost like, like a coma, you know?
well, let, let me do this. I, I've
got -- what I'd like you --
SCOTT:
then --
CLINT:I could write down your questions and
What, what I'd like you to do is go
back and run a couple of things, you know. I know
you've probably got other things to do, but what I'd
like you to do is
by Steve and justgo back and run a couple of questions
leave the phone off the hook or
whatever andjust, you know, see if he has an interest
in talking in these areas or if he has a - if he would
like to get Dave that help»- that could help clarify
some of these. Okay?
SCOTT: Okay. Wait a second. I've got to --
he's sleeping right now, but I'll take, I'll take a
list down --
CLINT:
SCOTT:
CLINT:
SCOTT:Now this is David or Steve again?
Steve.
Okay.
I, I -- well, I don't know -- youI
Q-miJ.9 92
U O 1.
know --
CLINT: Yeah. Well, all I want you to do is
just, you know, take a short list --
SCOTT:
CLINTYeah, okay.
-- and, and
that I'm going to be here for
SCOTT
- CLINT
right now about
SCOTT
CLINTOkay.
-- and I'll
some of these
Okay. Whengo and just tell Steve
a while, you know --
be glad to talk to him
issues.
are you going to be off?
Well, you know, if, if he's going to
be up in, you know, within the next say 15 or 30
minutes, I'll hang around and talk to him. I've been
trying to get a chance to run some of these things by
him, preferably David, but you know if Steve feels he's
comfortable in talking about the seals and about the
angels --
SCOTT: Uhhuh.7,
CLINT: -- I'd be glad to run it past him
too. Now, who, who do you find most conversant most of
the time, Scott? Do you find it's David or Steve who's
more willing to talk on these issues?
SCOTT: It depends on what you want to talk
about.
CLINT: Yeah. Well, I mean, let's, let's,
let's say I'm trying to clarify --
v--'1Ii,
SCOTT
seals --
CLINT
SCOTT
CLINT
SCOTT
either David or
CLINT
is clarify, youi 14
If you want to talk about the seven
Yeah. I'm trying to clarify --
-- either one will talk to you.
Who, who, who will?
Either one. Either David or --
Steve.
Great, because what I'm trying to do
know. They, they've gone out of their
way to make points to us and I'm sure inside, you know,
you've, you've heard it, you know, and maybe you'd be
very comfortable answering questions too, but I'd kind
of like to hear it from the horse's mouth, you know?
SCOTT: Right, right. I understand.
CLINT: And, and just like --
SCOTT: I can't really give it to you,
because, you know --
CLINT
yourself?
SCOTT
learning.
CLINT
life, isn't it?
SCOTT'You're still kind of learning
Well, I've, I've never stopped
Yeah? Well, that's, that's part of
Yeah, I've been in it -- I've been
with him for seven years now.
CLINT: Is that right?
xiY C
15
SCOTT: Yeah. And I've never stopped
learning. That's why I'm still here. N A
CLINT: Yeah. Well, like, what, what seal do
you feel you're in?
SCOTT: Huh?
CLINT: What -- where do you feel you're at
in the seven seals and what's, what's, what is the last
seal that you feel has been opened?
SCOTT: I can't really answer that.
CLINT: See, that's, that's the type of
question I'd like to know. V
SCOTT: Yeah, 'cause see --
CLINT: You know? I mean, you know, Dave --
David and Steve have gone out of their way to try to
tell these. Well, I've been going back and looking
over notes we've made and I've got questions in my mind
concerning these issues.
sco'r'r= Right. I.
CLINT: And, and if you feel that Steven or
David is the one who can answer an honest question,
that's who I'd like to ask that of and that's why I'd
like your support to go to Steve or got to David and
say, you know, you've got somebody who's interested and
you've got a chance to make your point, but --
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: You know? And we've got the time to
mi16
do it. I mean, there's nothing going on but that sound
outside now -- right now.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: So, I'd like to get a chance to run
these things by him.
SCOTT: Um-hum.
CLINT: So, you know,
that they're the ones that want
issues and what I'd like you to
them and just, you know, if youI believe what you say
to talk about these
do is go take a run at
feel I'm being
legitimate, and I am, to ask these questions, I'd like
you to make that same point to them and bring one of
them to the phone to answer these things for me.
SCOTT: Okay. Yeah. If you're going to talk
about that, they're, they're more than willing to do
that, but you know, like before, it's been like when
you tried to talk about that kind of stuff then you
guys cut him off, you know.
CLINT: Well, I mean, you know --
SCOTT: So, I can understand your point
though, you know what I mean, you got to do your job, '
but --
CLINT: Well, no, but what I'm saying, I'm
not looking for a £ivehour sermon, but I'm looking to
ask some specific questions based upon what he's told
us in the past and try to get some specific answers to
~45- 17
these questions, you know.
sco'r"r= Right .
CLINT: He's brought -- these questions have
come up because of our discussions with him --
SCOTT: Uh-huh. Okay.
CLINT: - so I'd like to get a
clarification.
SCOTT: Hold on and I'll get a - I'll get
some paper and then I'll make a list and then I'll go
see what I can do.
CLINT: Okay. Okay. Let's do that.
SCOTT: Okay. Hold on.
Long pause.!
SCOTT: Hello.
CLINT: You there?
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: Okay.
y SCOTT: Can you go slow, because I can't see
too good here.
CLINT: Oh, okay. Well, just flip on a light
switch or something. That doesn't work?
. SCOTT: N0.
CLINT: Or a flashlight or a candle or --
nothing like that, huh?
SCOTT: Let's see here. I'll work something
out.
=4-4CLINT:|, , l8
You've got to rub two boy scouts
together. See if that'1l work.
SCOTT:
question?
CLINT:Yeah. Okay. What's the first
Okay. Questions have come up before
concerning the angels that they've talked about and the
prior messages of the angels and how these messages
have been rejected.
SCOTT:
CLINT:
SCOTT:
CLINT:You want to know about --
Well, I --
Do you have a specific question or --
Yeah, yeah, like about the seventh
angel message, you know. Is that basically in
Revelations 10:7? You know, it's my understanding that
the sixth angel's message was rejected in 1977. Do you
remember that from your teachings?
SCOTT:
mess--
CLINT:
rejected in 1977
message? Okay?
SCOTT:
CLINT:
SCOTT:
CLINT:Revelation 10:7 -- seventh angel's
If the sixth angel's message was
where are we with the seventh angel's
Okay.
You with me there?
If sixth --
Angel's message was rejected in '77
-- if the sixth was rejected in '77, where, where are
1..-Q' 19
we with the seventh angel's message. _I, I - somehow I
don't understand that from what David's told us.
SCOTT: Okay. Like if sixth angel's message
rejected -- where are we now?
CLINT: Yeah. Where, where's the seventh --
yeah, can, can you explain where the seventh message
is? And what the status of that seventh message is?
SCOTT: Okay. Okay.
CLINT: Okay. You ready for the next one?
SCOTT: Okay. Go ahead.
CLINT: Okay. This is a question about how
David and Steve interpret Revelations. Okay? The
interpretation of Revelations. .
sco'r'r= Okay. Is that it? '
CLINT: Well --
SCOTT: I mean for that question?
CLINT: Yeah. But I mean, do they, do they
interpret it historically or in an idealistic way or in
a futuristic way? Which, which way do they interpret
Revelations? Of the three views that Biblical scholars
have. Historical, idilistic -- idealistic, or
futuristic? You got those three? '
SCOTT: Okay. Okay. Or presently? Okay.
CLINT: Okay?
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: And in Revelations, when we look in
<_.-an20
Chapter 20 and it talks about the 1,000 years -- are
you familiar with that?
SCOTT: Umhum.
CLINT: Okay. There's, you know, there's
also three, three different ways
SCOTT: Revelation 20
years?
CLINT: It talks about
is, is -- does David feel that's
or is that just something that's
You know, there's, there's three
looking at the 1,000 years and I
way he looks at that.
SCOTT: As far as what
previous question?Ito look at that.
- what about 1,000
1,000 years, you know,
kind of a real figure
kind of thrown out.
different ways of
m interested in which
you said in the
CLINT: Well, yeah, you know. Scholars,
again, will talk about the 1,000 years being looked at
three different ways, you khow. Part of it may be, is
that just a figurative something that's thrown out-or
do we take that literally? Is there, is there an
actual 1,000 years or is that just a number that's
thrown out?
SCOTT: Okay. Is it literal?
CLINT: Or figurative?
SCOTT: Figurative. Okay.
CLINT: And when we've talked about the seals
~.¢i0 e O
21
before --
SCOTT: Is this number four or --
CLINT: Yeah. Yeah, this is the next
question.
SCOTT: Okay.
CLINT: And, you know, I've got a lot of
questions concerning David and Steve's interpretation
of the seals.
SCOTT: Okay.
CLINT: But I guess what, what I'm wondering
again is, does David see us in the fourth seal? Or the
fifth seal? And -- are we between the fourth and the
fifth or has the fifth seal already been opened?
SCOTT: Okay.
CLINT: And, you know, I'd, I'd like to get
-- like him to kind of show me how he interprets that.
SCOTT: Okay.
CLINT: Okay? Add that's, that's just one
question about the seals, but you know I think that
kind of lets him know where I'm coming from in that
area and, you know, I've -- we, we've heard him talk --
or others have had a chance to talk with him for 45
days, but I've never had a chance to ask these specific
questions and, you know, to develop in some of these
areas. And, you know, just like you've had the chance
to, to hear it and to kind of research it yourself,
~..¢nO
22
I've been doing the same thing. And I'd like to get
some similar answers.
SCOTT: Okay. Okay. I just wrote a note
about what you just said now. About you wanting to
know because other people -- you know.
CLINT: Yeah, you know, I, you know, to, to
me, you know, I feel certain that Steve or Dave would
want to answer these questions because this is an area
they're both interested in so much.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: And, you know, that's why I posed
them to you and ask you to pose them to them.
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
CLINT: Okay? And that, you know - these --
a type of an area that - you know -- I know, we get on
the phone all the time. When are you coming out? When
are you coming out? And --
SCOTT: Right. '
CLINT: -- I know you've heard that till
you're tired of hearing it and I'm not going to say it,
you know? You know. Whenever you want to tell us
that, you tell us that. But what I want to say is
notwithstanding while -- that, you know, David's
waiting to number one, finish his writings on the seven
seals and they can be, you know, distributed.
SCOTT: Right.
Q...Q L C
23
CLINT: Whatever period of time that takes.
SCOTT: Uh-huh. '
CLINT: And number two, in the meantime I'd
-- since we've got time, I'd like, I'd like to get some
answers to some of these questions that, that he's
brought up that, when I look back, I don't have the
answer myself.
SCOTT: Right. I, I have, I have to warn you
though that these are not five- or ten-minute-answer
questions.
CLINT: Yeah. Well --
SCOTT: ~I mean, you know, he will give you a
comprehensive answer from - not just, not just, you
know, like here and there verses.
CLINT: Yeah. Well, let me ask you this.
when you've posed questions like this are you able to
say when he, when he starts off and he's, you know,
going as you say a very comprehensive, long answer, are
you able to say, wait, wait a minute, Dave, let me ask
you a specific about that? You know? Or, or does --
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: he want to just go ahead and give
you a dialogue without giving you the chance to ask a
question?
SCOTT: Oh, no, no. It's -- we always have a
chance to ask a question --
_,.-1O O
24
CLINT:
SCOTT:
times, he has to
say it -- to get
what he's trying
CLINT:
SCOTT:Yeah.
But, see, he, he can't ~ a lot of
give you an overview of, how do you
a complete picture of what you're --
to answer you.
Yeah.
See? Because if he just gives you a
- just a straightforward answer, it's not going to be,
how would you say, clear?
CLINT:
SCOTT:Yeah.
Like, you know what I mean? I can
give you a nutshell answer, but that's not really the
answer to the question.
CLINT: Yeah. That's, that's fair. It's,
it's, it's a balance of, you know, if, if you or I are
somewhat conversant in the Scriptures already --
SCOTT:
CLINT:
amount.
SCOTT:
CLINT:
knowledge base I
feelings, my own
like that.
SCOTT:
CLINT:Right.
Okay? I mean, you know, we know X
All right.
So, okay, and, and based upon my
know, you know, I have my own
comprehension of the scripture, things
All right.
What I'm saying is, I'd like to hear
Qsanon ~ v
25
what he has to say to compare it against some of the
feelings that I have and some of the beliefs that I
have.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: You know, I mean, I'm not raising my
hand and say I want to be a student. Okay? I mean --
SCOTT: Right, right. I understand.
CLINT: You know? We're here, you know, our
principle reason here is to resolve this safely.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: But also I'd like to hear some of
these answers. You know, number one, when, when the
final paperwork comes out that he's doing, that's fine,
that'll give us a chance to review it, but there's also
some questions I think I'd like to ask him.
SCOTT: It's good, because I'll tell you
right now, you guys salvation depends on knowing these
things. Whether you believe me or not. Or him.
CLINT: No, you know, we, we each have our
own personal religious belief system.
SCOTT: Right. Uh-huh.
CLINT: And, you know, mine is -- mine's
centered around Christianity and I've got no problem
with that.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: And, you know --
man
C26
SCOTT: we're just concerned for you because
we know what we're doing, but you know, you have a job
and that's not necessarily in light of what, what the
Scriptures - you know, you know what I mean? You know
what I'm saying?
CLINT: Yeah. But -- yeah,~but you know, let
me ask you this then. You know, let, let's say for
your, for yourself, do you feel that, you know, that
what's being taught -- I mean, do you look upon the FBI
as representing Babylon? Do you feel that that's who
we represent or is that being taught to you?
SCOTT: As you representing Babylon? Well,
wherever the government of this country's laws conflict
with the freedom of believe -- upholding God's laws
according to your own conscience, that's where I
personally find a rift there.
CLINT: Well, I mean, you know, we're -- how,
how do you deal with, you know, something that says
render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what H
is God's? And, you know -- and, and when you have,
when you have Jesus placing himself in the hands of the
authorities, willingly. You know, standing up and
saying, you know, here I am.
sco'r'r: Right .
CLINT: And, and when one of his people take
a sword and cut the ear off of one of the Roman
eaO O
' 27
soldiers and the Lord puts it back on his head again,
you know? A
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
CLINT: And you have this miracle healing and
he says, no, wait, no. Here I am. Let's resolve this
right now. Let's, you know --
SCOTT: Yeah, well, what he said --
CLINT: -- deal with me --
SCOTT: -- then, see, he said that -- he
goes, if my kingdom were of this world, then would my
servants fight. But now my kingdom is not from hence
-- from here, from here.
CLINT: Okay. And do you find that
different --
SCOTT: And that was then --
CLINT: Do you find that different now?
SCOTT: Huh?
CLINT: Do you find that different now?
SCOTT: Hold on just a second.
CLINT: Yeah.
SCOTT TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: What? Yeah.
SCOTT: Well, let me see. Let me just say
this much.
CLINT: Yeah.
SCOTT: That I'll give them the questions --
CLINT: I mean, is somebody telling you you
5'1. Ax 28
shouldn't be talking to us? '
SCOTT: No, no, no, no, no. Not that.
CLINT: Oh. I, I thought that --
SCOTT: It's just that I have to do something
-- he just reminded me I have to go do something. But
it's not, you know, not that I can't talk - I can talk
to you whenever I feel_like it, Clint.
CLINT: Well, I mean, it, it just sounded to
me like somebody was just cutting you off --
SCOTT: No, no, no. He's not cutting me off.
CLINT: I mean, you know, it, it -- are more
people than just David and Steve allowed to discuss the
Scriptures or is that pretty much limited to them?
SCOTT: Well, see, I could discuss the
Scriptures with you --
CLINT: Yeah.
SCOTT: -- but my, my ability to replay what
I know is not -- in other words, I'm not a scholar,
see? I'm --
CLINT: Oh, no. And, and neither am I. And
my position is not to duel with somebody, you know.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: I mean, I don't want to take Biblical
swords and have a fight.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: You know? What I'm saying is, I just
nanwant -- I, I'm interested in if David's beliefs and the29
way he shares the Scriptures represents the beliefs of
everybody inside of there, then I would be interested
in seeing how the things that he advocate go along with
my understanding
SCOTT
CLINT
SCOTT
case because we
CLINT:
SCOTT:
say.
CLINT:
SCOTTRight.
Okay?
It -- that's, that's basically the
wouldn't be here unless we, you know --
Yeah.
-- we could see what he was trying to
Okay.
So, you know, it's like -- I, I do
not feel -- I, I know what I know. Like I say, I know
what I believe to my satisfaction, but to try to convey
that to you is like -- I don't know how to do that.
CLINT: Okay. And that, that's fair. And.
you know, in my position and not to say ha, ha, I know
more than you or you know more than me. If you've been
there seven years --
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: -- you've had an opportunity to study
the Scriptures a lot more than we have out here.
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
CLINT: And, you know, and our concern out
92.-anon ia»
30
here is, is your concern with our salvation and I
appreciate that and us with you, but we also have a
professional concern with everybody's safety. You
know? Everybody in there and everybody outside. You
know? So, we've got kind of a dual concern.
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
CLINT: You know? Yours, you know, you may
well feel yours is the greater because you're dealing
with men's souls --
scorr= Right.
CLINT: -- but our's is what we get paid to
do, which is deal with men's lives.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: You know? So we can have the
professional and the spiritual balance and I think
that's, that's -- you know, what, what we'd like to
strive for.
SCOTT
CLINT
SCOTT
CLINT:
SCOTT:
CLINTRight.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I can, I can dig that. Okay.
Why don't you -- let me say, you
know, I can hang around for a while if they want to '
talk or I can go crash and go to bed and figure that
this is something that, you know, you know -- we've
92. .-anO 31
been told they want to talk about this but if the
answer is they want to talk about it but only when the
time's appropriate to them, then, you know, we have --
I'll have to do it some other time.
SCOTT: All right.
CLINT: So, what, what you're suggesting --
want me to hang around for a few minutes? You want to
bounce this off Steve or David or should I just forget
about it?
SCOTT: No, don't forget about it. I
wouldn't say that, but --
CLINT: Okay. Well, you know, you tell me
what you think is best.
SCOTT: Why don't -- if I can, if I can get
them up or something, you know, I'll have them call you
or whatever.
CLINT: Okay. Okay. Let me say this. I'll
be around for another 30 minutes.
SCOTT: Okay.
CLINT: Okay? And if you've got somebody
and, you know, you can express to them, you know, I'm
truly interested in resolving some of these things.
SCOTT: Okay.
CLINT: And not just stroking them. That's
fine. But if they say nah, you know, we, we want to
sleep and we're not too concerned with answering those
xiI 32
questions, that's fine too.
SCOTT: Yeah. Well, it's not so much - it's
not -- wouldn't be the case -- not concerned would be
-- never be the case.
CLINT: Yeah.
SCOTT: It's not that they're not, they're
not concerned.
CLINT:' No, you know, you know, you think
about it, you know, that the disciples in, in, in the
garden and they all fall asleep on him.
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: And, you know, I kind of feel this
is, this is reversed a little bit, you know?
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: I've got David falling asleep on me.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: I'm saying, hey, I want to hear, I
want to hear and he says no, no, I've got to get some
sleep. That's just kind of role reversal, isn't it?
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: Yeah. Okay. So, you know, I'll hang
around for 30 minutes and, you know, if, if, if you
really feel this is legitimate, why don't you go ahead
and bounce it off one of the two of them and see if
they've got some time to resolve some of these issues,
okay?
Q.-Ih 33
sco'r'r= All right.
CLINT: But, you know, why don't you give me
a call back either way after 30 minutes.
SCOTT: Okay.
CLINT: Or as soon as you find out -- if the
answer to both of them is why don't you tell the guy
no. We -- all we want to do is sleep, then just call
me and tell me all they want to do is sleep and I'll
go, you know, I'll head back to my motel and go to
sleep too.
SCOTT
CLINT
SCOTT
CLINTOkay.
Okay?
All right.
Okay. So let's see. I've got about
twenty till one, so I'll hang around here till about
ten after one and I'll expect to hear back from you one
way or the other by ten after one. Okay?
SCOTT
CLINT
appreciate your
SCOTT
CLINT:Okay.
Okay. That's great. Hey, I
help this late.
Hey. No problem.
And it'll make -- you know, at least
answer some issues that I've got. '
SCOTT: Okay.
CLINT: Okay. Thanks.
SCOTT: All right. You're welcome. Bye.
v.-Ii _ 34
Connection broken.!
i I i I 1'
CLINT: Hello.
SCOTT: Hello. Is Clint there?
CLINT: Speaking.
SCOTT: Clint, this is Scott again.
CLINT: Yeah, Scott.
SCOTT: Yeah. I tried to get Steve up. I
couldn't get David up.
CLINT: Uh-huh.
SCOTT: Dave - David must be really
exhausted. Steve -- Steve's really tired too and he
asked if you'd give him a little mercy and let him talk
to you like maybe tomorrow or something like --
CLINT: Well, you know, just -- tell, tell
Steve that I've got my note pad here and I've got my
Bible opened --
SCOTT : Uh - huh .
CLINT: -- and I was ready to hear what they
had to say, but if, you know, if their position is
they're not ready to say it, then so be it.
SCOTT: Well, yeah -- well, we're not going
anywhere so --
CLINT: Yeah. I know. No, it's just, you
know, I thought you finally had the format to share the
things you're talking about and somebody who's
~11C I O
35
interested in hearing that and, and I'm told --
SCOTT: Well, you're not going to quit
tomorrow are you?
CLINT: Am I going to quit?
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: No, but, you know, I, I, I think
we're going to wind up in different sleeping bouts
then.
SCOTT: Oh, I see what you're saying.
CLINT: See what I'm saying?
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: I mean -- what, what do you get from
Steve? I mean, you know, let's, let's put cards on the
table. Is Steve saying I don't believe they're even
interested in what we have to say?
SCOTT: No, no.
CLINT: I mean if that's the case there's no
use me even asking. ~
SCOTT: Right. No, that's not the case.
CLINT: If he's going to come to the table
feeling like that.
SCOTT: No, he, he's real tired and --
CLINT: Well, you know, I --
SCOTT: -- and he's real cold and he
doesn't --
CLINT: I've been up since five o'clock this
Q-II T o>
36
morning but, you know, I was interested enough to stay
awake and ask.
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: You know?
SCOTT: He's, he's real cold and he's, he's
real tired because he only had like an hour and a half
of sleep today, so.
CLINT: Yeah. So, so, what's, what's his
suggestion. Does he have a willingness to even talk
about any of these issues or is it --
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: -- really not necessary?
SCOTT: I've got the list and --
CLINT: Yeah.
SCOTT: -- and he's going to look at it as
soon as he gets up and he'll have an answer for you.
CLINT: Okay. Well, why don't you do this
then, you know? Why don't you have him just kind of
look it over --
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: -- and I'd be interested then
tomorrow -- some time, some time in the mid-morning to
get a chance to talk to him or talk to David about
these issues.
SCOTT: Okay.
CLINT: Okay? And, you know, put in a way
4-miQ»
37
that I'm not looking at anybody to pound us, you know,
pound on these answers, but, you know, he's got some
things he's trying -- Steve's trying to resolve with
his attorney.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: You know, and those issues need to be
addressed. In fact, you said something about that to
me, didn't you?
SCOTT: Yeah. He, he left me a message in
case you guys call him, because you usually call him
around, around now or --
CLINT: What was that message?
SCOTT: You know, basically, that if it was
-- it had something to do with the attorney that he'd
talk to him in the morning or something.
CLINT: Yeah.
SCOTT: You know, unless it was real urgent.
CLINT: Yeah. Okay.
SCOTT: And, you know, he's, he's really
tired. That's why --
CLINT: Okay. Well --
SCOTT: It is kind of cold. I'm freezing
right now.
CLINT: Is, is it cold in -- is it cold just
because, what, concrete floors or what? I mean, you
know, I, I've obviously never been inside your complex.
viSCOTT
CLINT:
or --
SCOTT
CLINT
SCOTT
CLINT
everything like
SCOTTA I 2 8
Well, it's --
Do you have, have rugs on the floor
Yeah.
-- sleeping bags or --
Yeah.
I mean, you've still got bedrooms and
that.
Right. It's no problem when I'm
sleeping in my sleeping bag, you know, when we're up.
The problem is is we don't have any windows now.
CLINT
SCOTT
CLINT
comes through.
SCOTT
conditioning.
CLINT
SCOTT
CLINT
helps you catchOh, is that right?
Yeah.
So, so you've got air that kind of
Yeah, it's kind of like air
Well, does it rain in or what?
Some places.
_Yeah? Well, that, that probably
water though, doesn't it? I mean you
don't have to be hanging out the windows with buckets
then, right?
SCOTT: There's a couple of places, you know
-- well, yeah, we, we do put buckets out the window --
CLINT: Yeah?
~-1I 39
SCOTT: -- because most of the water comes
off the roof. H
CLINT: You mean you use that for drinking
water or bathing water or what? Or anything?
SCOTT: Yeah, anything.
CLINT: Anything?
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: I mean, can -- you, you can drink
water as it comes off the roof? You don't get, you
know, shingles in the water or something like that?
You, you know, those little parts of the roof that come
off -- _
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: -- when the water -- that doesn't
bother you?
SCOTT: Well, I guess you pour it through a
paper towel or something like that.
CLINT: Oh, is that what you do? Pour it
through a paper towel. I don't know. I'm trying to
picture that in my mind. A
SCOTT: Yeah, you know.
CLINT: Well, I mean, you know, does that,
that -- does that kind of limit your ability to bathe
then or --
SCOTT: Basically.
CLINT: Yeah. I mean, you probably do like I
~-I.
40
do, you know, when, when you're in the military and you
don't have a whole shower there, you kind of take a
sponge bath or something like that, huh?
SCOTT:
CLINT:
and --
SCOTT¢
CLINT:
keep your hair --Yeah.
You just kind of rinse yourself down
Yeah.
-- pour a little bit on your hair and
you know, as long as my hair was
clean I always felt pretty good.
SCOTT: Yeah. You know, you wash your face
in the morning and --
CLINT: Yeah. Do you, do you get a chance to
shave though or do you pretty much just go with a beard
or what, what, what are the men like now?
SCOTT: Right now, the -- some of us shave
and some -- you know, like I, I'm lazy so I don't
shave.
CLINT: You know, I always do that on
vacation. Whenever I'm on vacation for a couple of
weeks I don't shave at all. You know? It's, it's nice
to get up in the
SCOTT:
know, to where I
CLINT:morning and not have to do that.
Plus I'm not going anywhere, you
have to look presentable.
Don't have to dress -- well, I mean,
you still want to look good for everybody inside, you
v.~¢QQ "O
41
know.
SCOTT:
CLINT:
dating though, right?
SCOTT:
CLINT:
the --
SCOTT:
CLINT:
and there are no
SCOTT:
CLINT:Oh, they, they know what I look like.
well, you don't have to worry about
Yeah.
That's, that's not, that's not one of
I'm not going to go --
You don't have to worry about dating
dances that you have to go to, right?
Yeah.
Now, how, how, how do, how do you
guys -- what do you feel about dancing? Is that
prohibited?
SCOTT:
CLINT:No.
To, to be a Davidian? Is that -- do
you dance? Do you not dance?
SCOTT:
CLINT:
SCOTT:
CLINT:
SCOTT:
CLINT:Yeah, we dance.
You do?
Yeah.
Okay. No, I didn't know, you know.
Yeah.
No, I guess, you know, I know there
are some denominations -- you get like Baptists or
something like that and they don't.
SCOTT: Yeah.
5.16
CLINT
SCOTT
you know.
CLINT
SCOTTO ,2
Yeah.
Yeah. We drink once in a while too,
Yeah? A
In moderation. We don't, we don't
drink to get wasted, you know, like, like you do out in
the world most of the time on weekends and stuff.
CLINT: You know, that, that -- you know, you
can do anything -- you know, you, you can eat too much
chocolate cake.
SCOTT
CLINT
SCOTTYeah.
You can O.D. on bacon, you know?
You know, the Bible says tithe your
liquors and your strong drinks and stuff like that, you
know.
CLINT: Yeah. So, so what? So, so you've
got a liquor cabinet and you kind of dispense it
slowly, huh? You know, it, it's -- I was thinking it's
kind of hard though. Once you crack a, crack a bottle
of beer open it's
SCOTT
CLINT:
SCOTT
CLINTkind of hard to make that last.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
And the same way with a wine bottle
or something like that. Now, you know, if you've got a
bottle of Jack Daniels or something, you could kind of
~-4_/1.
Q 43
pour that or, you know, if you've got -- you know, the
old Southern sipping whiskey?
SCOTT:
CLINT
longer.
SCOTT
CLINT
SCOTT
CLINT
missing.
SCOTT
nights, I mean,
that.Yeah.
You can make that last a little
Yeah.
You need ice though. You got ice?
No.
No? That's the one thing you're
well, well, like, like, like on cold
you don't have to worry too much about
CLINT: You don't have to worry. You just,
you just sit the bottle out at night, sit it out at
night and let it get cold.
SCOTT
CLINT
SCOTT
CLINTYeah.
Then it's cold again the next day.
Yeah.
Yeah. That sounds reasonable. Okay.
Well, you, you sound like you're on the night shift or
you're one of the night owls or?
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: Yeah. You're awake at night and
sleep during the day, huh.
SCOTT: Yeah.
~4444
CLINT: Well, everybody has day shifts and
night shifts. .
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: Whether you're on 8-hour or 12 --
SCOTT: You sound like a, you sound like a
pretty decent guy.
CLINT: Well, I think I am, you know? I
mean, you can sit -- you, you know, you can't see me.
It'd be nice if we had a speaker phone --
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: -- you know, but, you know, you, you
kind of weigh a person by his voice and I think you and
I, both, we measure a person by the sincerity in his
voice.
SCOTT: Um-hum.
CLINT: And we say, you know, is this guy
putting his hand over the phone and saying oh, boy, am
I lying to those people or is he being honest, you
know? And I guess I, you know, I kind of wonder the
same thing about you. You know, are you sitting there
saying oh, we'll lie to this guy or something else like
that or, he sounds like he's interested. Let's tell
him the truth. I don't know. You know? I, I don't
know which it is.
SCOTT: Well, when it comes to, you know,
when it comes to wanting to know, know, know the
w.-1A 45
Scriptures and stuff like that, you know, we have no,
no problem with that at all.
CLINT
SCOTT
understand us.
CLINT
realize too thatYeah? Well, you know, you --
Otherwise you're not going to
Well, you know, you, you've got to
you're not really -- you know, whether
you feel everybody out here, you and everybody else,
whether you feel we represent Babylon or whether we
represent the beast or whatever it is, I mean you've
got a lot of God-fearing people out here.
SCOTT
CLINT
SCOTT
CLINT
belief system -
SCOTT
CLINTYeah.
You know? That, that --
Oh, I realize that --
That, that have their own strong
Yeah.
-- that, you know, in, in some ways
as far as Christianity goes or as far as Biblical
belief have the same or have similar beliefs than you
do.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: You know? There's, there's probably
not a lot of conflict in a number of belief areas. I
think where it comes to interpretation and
understanding.
uniSCOTT: Um-hum.46
CLINT: You know? And the way David may
interpret the Scriptures to you, it may be different
than the way the pastor in the church that I attend
shares it with me. i
A SCOTT: Um-hum.
CLINT: So, you know, we may have those
differences but I'd like to think we have the same
basic belief system.
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: You're - I mean, you're, you're not
dealing with a bunch of atheists, you know. You're not
surrounded by a bunch of FBI agents with their fangs
dripping and all we want to do is bite holes in the
kids and suck the blood out of them and beat you over
the head with our atheistic literature.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: Now, thatas not the case.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: It's absolutely not the case.
SCOTT: Well, I, I know - see, the way I
look at, at you guys is there's, there's very --
there's a very thin line between you being in here and
me being out there.
CLINT: Yeah.
SCOTT: You know, and like I see the guys out
Junw, Q .
47
there, you know, and, and I know that they're basically
decent guys, you know, because like, you know, we look
out, you know, we look at them with the binoculars and,
you know, they wave at us and we wave at them, you
know, so --
CLINT: Yeah .
SCOTT: -- you know, like one of the guys
wrote this guy a note outside and held it up to the
window. It said, hey, you know, my name's Neil or, you
know, so-and-so and maybe we could have a beer after
this is all over or something and the guy waves at
him --
End of Tape #225!
Wlm
U.S- DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE I226
4/15/93
1:20 A.M. - 3:23 P.M.
xi Tape 226!2
CLINT: -- nice bar/restaurant downtown with
a funny name. Not Rooster something but -- oh, gee --
oh, Buzzard Billy's. You, you ever been in Buzzard
Billy's?
SCOTT: No, not yet.
CLINT: No, you know, it's, it's, it's a nice
place. Again, what you're talking about, you know,
there's not a
know, whether
city folks or
little bit Ofbunch of, you know, whether you, you
you consider people crazy or rednecks or
country folks. Kind of a cross -- a
everything. You, you know, it's one of
these places you go in, you get a bucket of peanuts,
you crack the
and --peanuts, you throw them on the floor,
SCOTT: Um-hum.
CLINT: - that's the same type of
environment, you know, that you and some of the people
inside -- we could sit across the same table --
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: -- share a bucket of peanuts and, you
know, split a pitcher of beer and you wouldn't know
there's a difference.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: And I guess, you know, my, my
position, and, and I, I haven't -- I've been her quite
o..pla while, but I haven't had a chance to talk to you3
QQYS "
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
CLINT: is that I, I hope there's no
feeling inside that all these people want to do is, is
do something to us, they want to put us in jail, they
want to put us away, they want to destroy our message,
you know.
SCOTT: Umhum.
CLINT: We're, we're not the Antichrist.
we're really not. And --
sco'r'r= Right.
CLINT: -- I don't really feel that we're
pawns in something like this. We've just got certain
things that we're responsible for unto Caesar to deal
with.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: And thaths, that's the only thing.
There's no animosity. There's no revenge motive or
anything else. And to me, again, you know, you said
you could be outside and I would be in and I've really
tried, you know, to put myself in your position.
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
CLINT: Thinking what you're, you know, I've,
I've got a lot of time to, to look at and find the
similarities between your beliefs and our beliefs --
v-~~IQ C O
4
SCOTT: Uhhuh. _
CLINT: -- and my personal beliefs.
sco'r'r= Right.
CLINT: And I thought, if I was inside and if
I had been, you know, involved in this situation so
far --
sco'r'r: Right.
CLINT: -- and if I felt I was justified in
any action that I had taken, I would be spoiling to
take that before the American public and, and before
the court.
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
CLINT: To, you know, to really have the
opportunity to say, people, listen. Listen to what
took place, listen to our side of it, and listen to how
the Lord supported us through all of this. And I guess
that's where in, in all honesty, this, this is no pitch
to get you to come out. You come out whenever that --
the time is you come out.
sco'r'r: Right.
CLINT: I, I just have -- personally have a
hard time understanding why there's not a universal
feeling of let's get this message out, let's stand
before the court of the world, and if we feel we're
justified, let's tell people we're justified. Get that
message out. I would personally want to do that, you
w-1Q u o
know? I mean, I don't like confrontation per se all5
the time, but when I think I'm right and when I think
I'm scripturally justified in what I was doing, I look
for a ladder to get on to tell somebody that, you know?
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: I think they need to hear it.
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
CLINT: And that's where - I don't care what
the agencies say out here. That's where I feel kind of
a personal challenge as to why there's not a universal
feeling with you and your colleagues inside there to do
that same thing. You know, to take that message out
again.
SCOTT: Um-hum.
CLINT: You know, I mean, you know, you may
say, well, you know, some of us were shooters and some
of us were not shooters and, you know, you know, you
could very well say, yeah, you know, I, I was a shooter
or I was defending myself or I got under the bed when
bullets were flying or something like that. Whatever
your position is is your position.
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
CLINT: But, you know, there's going to come
a time when this is resolved when you and everyone else
inside feels it's time to come out and you come out and
life is going to go on, you know? Each of you is going
v~»%to have a chance to be a missionary and each of you in
your own way is going to have a chance to go out and
share your message and you'll do it in groups of twos,
threes, fours, fives. You'll do it as singles.
Whatever it's going to be. You're going to have that
option. And to me I would think you'd kind of be
clambering for that option. Am, am I wrong? Am I just
-- am I, am I missing something that - what am I
missing? _
SCOTT: Well, yeah, it's basically right, you
know. I mean, you know --
CLINT: But, but, you know what I mean, but
there -- you, you don't feel any personal urgency, is
that it? Or -- you know, I don't, I don't want to put
words in your mouth. I, I just want to understand and
I, and I don't understand.
SCOTT: Well --
CLINT: You know! I'm not trying to make you
do anything. I'm trying to understand.
SCOTT: Yeah, right. Well, all I can say is
I believe in God and God has his own time and you
know --
CLINT: And, and that David's the only one
that will know when that time is? I mean, I mean, do,
do you have the opportunity if, through prayer and
through time in your own prayer closet, whatever it is,6
92. ~01O ~ QW 7
the Lord moved upon you and said, I want you to go out
and be my missionary and go out and give that word, you
know. Can you do that yourself or does it have --
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: - to be an entire group that has to
get that message simultaneous or do you simply say,
well, when David gets it then we'll all just follow it?
SCOTT: Yeah, I want to, you know, I'm free
to make my own decision. If I wanted to go out I can
go out. Like I can go out right now.
CLINT: Yeah.
SCOTT: But --
CLINT: Is, is, is --
SCOTT: -- I prefer to, you know, to wait and
see what happens.
CLINT: Let, let me ask you this, okay? Just
between me and you and the wall, is part of it because
you just don't know what awaits you on the other side?
' SCOTT: No, that does - that has nothing to
do with it.
CLINT: Yeah. You know, I mean, there, there
is not people clambering to put everybody in jail for
99 years, you know, there's really not.
SCOTT: Yeah, I realize that.
CLINT: I mean, you know, there's not. And,
you know, there's situations that have to be resolved,
-.-1
you know?
I SCOTT: Oh, right.8
CLINT: You and everybody in there is going
to have, is going to have the opportunity to say, yes
we did, we did take an action, but this
we took it. I mean, that's, that's why
You know, that's why we just don't have
punishment. You get in some countries,
you know? You're accused of an offense
it takes.
sco'r'r= Right .is the reason
we have courts.
summary
and that's it,
and that's all
CLINT: And we are so different here. And
especially, you know, you're in a part of the country
and in a part of Texas where, you know, people are, are
supportive of different types of religious views and
philosophies and they kind of give you an opportunity
to be yourself.
SCOTT: Right. 2
CLINT: But, you know, the point I get back
to again is that, you know, to, to have that
opportunity to come out and do that, you know, is, is
to me I would think something you're going to look
forward to.
SCOTT: Yeah. I mean, I'm not, you know, I'm
not afraid to go out there, you know. That's, you know
- I hate to cut you off, but I got to go use the
.44I
bathroom. .
CLINT: You got to go to the bathroom? You
should have done that in the last 30 minutes. You had
30 minutes to do things. Well, just be careful and
don't hang out the window, okay --
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: -- to do something like that.
SCOTT: No, no.
CLINT: All right. Hey, have you go any time
frame when David or Steve are going to be willing to
talk tomorrow?
SCOTT: Probably in the morning.
CLINT: I mean, what does that mean? Did,
did they give you a time?
SCOTT: Yeah, like, before nine.
CLINT: Yeah. Is, is, is Steve going to have
whatever paperwork he want's finished for Zimmerman
too? .
SCOTT: I would suppose so.
CLINT: Yeah.
SCOTT: I, again, I can't, I can't really
say. I would, I would imagine he, you know --
CLINT: Okay. Well, you know --
SCOTT: -- he's taken care of that already.
CLINT: -- you and I talked on some side
issues, but my main issue, again, is still the9
Q.-46 1.
questions that I asked you.
SCOTT: Right.
CLINT: And the only reason I didn't pursue
those is that you told me you're not comfortable with
them.
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: And I, and I respect that.
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: Okay?
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT: So --
SCOTT: Because, you know, I mean, I'm not,
I'm not a, I not a what you call a - eloquent orator.
CLINT: Well, I don't know - you, you,
you've made yourself very understood to me.
SCOTT: Oh, that's good.
CLINT: So I'm comfortable with that, you
know. .
SCOTT: That's good.
CLINT: You know? So, all I'm saying is just
if you believe I'm telling the truth, and I hope you
do, I want you to --
SCOTT: Well, I got no problem with you, you
know.
CLINT: You know, I, I just want you to be an
advocate as far as, you know, whether you believe what
=4-1.l' _ !
I say or not.
SCOTT: Oh, yeah.
c1.m'r= All right?
SCOTT: Okay.
CLINT: All right.
SCOTT: I have no problem with that, you
know. I have no reason not to believe what you, you
know --
CLINT: No, you don't. You don't at all.
Nell, I'll let you go to the bathroom.
SCOTT: Okay. Thanks a lot. I'm like, you
know, starting to, starting to tread water here.
CLINT: Starting to tread water, huh?
SCOTT: Yeah.
CLINT:' Okay. Well, go fill your bucket.
SCOTT: Okay.
CLINT: Okay?
SCOTT: Yeah. Thanks.
CLINT: Good to talk to you.
SCOTT: Okay. Bye-bye.
Connection broken.!
* a a n t
Telephone being dialed.!
Telephone ringing - 2 rings.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello.
JIM: Good morning.
Q.-atO 5
12
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Good morning.
JIM: Morning, Steve. I
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How are you doing?
JIM: I'm doing all right. How are you doing
today?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'm not too bad.
JIM: How's things going there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I guess - so what's
happening with our dropping off the letters for the
attorneys or the agreements --
JIM: Every -- everything should, should have
been delivered already. Mr. DeGuerin and Zimmerman
have the - all the information that was sent out last
night.
srsvn SCHNEIDER: No, they worked it out last
night that - see, DeGuerin stayed overnight only for
one reason, because my con - I
JIM: Yeah, to pick everything up.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, my contract wasn't
ready so -- and Judy, she has -- they hired Levine for
her - apparently my sister did.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And so that's part of the
same law office, and I think DeGuerin's got it worked
out for his brother to take Wayne's.
JIM: Okay. That's fine.
Q' I4 ' 13
STEVE
something aboutSCHNEIDER: So okay. And they said
picking it up at quarter to nine. I
see it's about ten to nine, huh, so I'm not -- what is
the procedure then?
JIM:
with you.
STEVEHold on just a minute. Let me get back
SCHNEIDER: All right.
Pause.!
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:Steven?
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
What happened is the attorneys have
gone right now and what we're going to have to do is
recontact those
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
taken care of.
STEVE
before I had an
JIM:
STEVEfolks and --
SCHNEIDER: Okay. And contact me back?
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: Okay. That's fine.
And get back with you and get the stuff
1
SCHNEIDER: -- yesterday and the day
hour, hour and a half sleep.
Right.
SCHNEIDER: And last night here I took
a look at this contract, started working on it just so
it would he done this morning -- I, I could have used
an extra hour
JIM:I hear you.
vi" ~ >I 14
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - you know, working on
it -- '
JIM: I hear you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But it's all right. So
one's always, you know, hesitant in signing your life
away so --
JIM: Yeah. I understand that. I understand
that. Let me ask you something, Steven.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure.
JIM: How many of the seals are done now?
How many have been completed?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know that he was -- he
had done, I believe, the first one. See, he's, he's
kind of more or less locked up, right? He's got the
door closed, doesn't want to be bothered. So, until he
opens the door or I go knock at the door again, I'm not
sure, you know, how far he is.
JIM: Okay. H
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I know every time I've
gone in there, he's got papers strewn all over.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And he's definitely working
on it constantly.
JIM: Does it look like he's organizing this
thing or is he --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah, yeah. Once --
---IIQ 0
15
see, that's the way he's always been is once, you know,
he's got a direction. I mean, that's -- I mean, I know
you people probably don't believe it but, you know,
long before the incident, that's the way he's always
been.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Like I've said many times,
like even when I met him, I asked him to come with me
one time and I'd pay his way and all that and he said
he wouldn't do anything unless God directed him to do
that. And then the next morning we took off.
JIM: Okay. Let me ask you something.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure.
JIM: Who's writing this stuff down for him.
Who's, who's actually --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So far he's doing the
actual writing. He hasn't handed it to me yet, but
I'll probably be the one to go over through the
punctuation and all that and when it comes to writing
we do have a typewriter here. We're trying to make
sure that it works. I think we'll try to get it into'
that format and so it's easily read. Very readable.
JIM: Okay. So, have you edited what he's
already produced, the first seal?
srzvs scrmmnsm Not yet. Not yet.
JIM: Okay.
92.~-QO 0 1,
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I was waiting for him to
hand that to me, in fact, and he - I'-- that will take
me no time, of course.
JIM: Okay. Why don't you check with him and
then get back with us on that and see how far he's gone
and what he's produced so far.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, see, what -- I will,
but I'm not -- I can't tell you just when and I mean I
can't say the next hour, because I'll tell you why, you
know. I don't know if he was up the whole night still
writing and once in a while what he'll do is just fall
asleep for an hour or so and then he gets, you know,
he'll wake up and go right at it again.
JIM: when do you think he's going to be
finished with this?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If he's going at the speed
he is, you know, it's hard to say, but I know that he's
plugging away at it and it» it's coming right along.
JIM: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, I, I really don't know,
you know. I don't want to give a false hope, you know.
I have my hope too, you know, that --
JIM: I hear you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- that's going to be done
and that we're just going to get this thing over once
and for all. So -- and I don't even know what he's act
~11Q 0
l7
-- the truth is, I don't even know what he's got in
there yet. I'm extremely curious. a
JIM: What are we looking at? Maybe one to
two days on this first seal or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I have no idea. I have
no idea. I don't even know how, how -- see, I've never
understood really how God has worked with him. To some
degree he's explained at times about what he hears, how
it works, and -- but it's -- to me it's always unique.
You know, it's not something you can ever gauge
anything by because I've never had an experience like
it, nor have I ever trusted or believed anyone else has
had.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, you know, it's unique
for sure to say the least.
JIM: One, one of the things that we need to
look into is he's, he's supposedly in there writing all
this stuff down and getting it put together for us so
that we can get this stuff sent out. Why are we, why
are we to believe that he's going to be able to
complete all of this? .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, because, you know --
JIM: What, what, what is there to make us
believe that this --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I don't know how --
~~-1O 0 18
what, what to give you for an assurance other than, you
know, from the beginning, long before this incident --
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean the way he works, I
mean he - see, he's not afraid to, like, come out and
do this or do that. Seriously, all --
JIM: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In fact, the guy is not
afraid of death.
I JIM: I hear you. I hear you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And, you know, I could give
you a lot of instances and all that, but he's -- that's
never has been a consideration. It's always been that
ever since he was shown something in '85 and, you know,
if you've got people, you know, say you didn't believe
in religion at all, God, whatever. If you heard his
account of those days in detail and everything, you'd
understand exactly why he is the way he is.
JIM: Okay. Let me ask you to do something.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JIM: As he's completing these seals and, and
getting each one of them done, why don't you try to get
those things sent out to us so that we can get the work
started on these things. As far as being --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, I will do
whatever, you know, what I can, of course, you know.
Q-anO~ 0»
19
I'll try to do whatever, but I think, from what I
understand, he's got it worked out that they go
directly - hello?
JIM: I'm here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JIM: Talk to me
STEVE SCHNEIDER:I'm here.
Okay.
Yeah. I, I hear - I'm not
sure. I think he's got that worked out just how it's
to be done and I think it's between him and his
attorney, so I -- hello?
JIM: I'm here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
I-Oh, I heard a click and
JIM: Well, I think it's your phone.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JIM: It is?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
worked out with him and I,It's yours, but anyway.
Anyway, he's got that
~you know, I'm not sure about
their procedure, but I know it goes to, I believe, I
know, I believe it goes to him first and then to all of
you or anyway he wants it and then the hands of his
attorney, I believe, right off.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But see, he doesn't want it
to be -- money to be made off of it or anything of that
nature so, you know, there's kind of --
~--1Q»
20
JIM: Okay. .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- legal issues involved in
that.
JIM: So after this thing is completed and
this manuscript's put together, you're definitely
coming out?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah, positively.
JIM: walking out the door?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In fact, when he --
yesterday I - actually he gave me something to look at
and it was incomplete yet, so he worked it out with his
attorney, but I at least got to see the first part of
which I was mentioning, I believe, it was Duane last
night.
JIM: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And, yeah, that was stated
very to the point and clear on there. No matter what
happens to him or whatever else, he is coming out. You
know, he's been at least waiting for God to show what
he's waiting for [buzz] hello?
JIM: I can hear you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah, there was some
kind of an interruption on the phone but anyway, yeah,
he, he's been waiting right along for some direction or
something and then [buzz] did you hear that?
JIM: Yeah. It's my phone.
~.-anQ 0 21
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Well, anyway, then
it came and, and that's what he showed to me yesterday
morning and then when the attorney called that's what
he wanted to be made known to you.
JIM: This is, this is not going to be one of
these deals like on the second, is it?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, no, not at all, not at
all. In fact, I'm sure of that, just by, you know,
what he has said and when he has said it, how he has
said it and I've always known -- I mean, you people
don't know that, but I've always known that he's
actually been literally waiting to know what --
JIM: What, what do you think the difference
is between the situation that we have now and the
second?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I really don't know
because, you know, it - I'm not, you know, he never
made clear to me what he had in mind at that second in
the first place. He just made a decision. He said he
was coming out. Well, there's no sense in me sitting
here. The only reason I came here was to hear what he
had to present in the first place, so when he said what
he did I just, yeah, I thought that was it. You know,
it was only two days after the incident and it just
seemed like that that's the thing, but I, I was, I did
observe and watch him when he was told to wait. I saw
eqpe I ' ' g 22
him in prayer and all that and, man, the anguish he
went through and -- I
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and --
JIM: Well, you know --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You see, he's got a
mission. That's what you people don't -- he's got, you
know, he believes --
JIM: Yeah, he's got this mission, Steve, but
he gave us his word on the second and what is it about
this time just to make us believe --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I understand. No, and I
understand it puts - it's even strange to me. It's
even strange to me. It really is, but I mean, I
believe what he's saying. I know his god has told him
before to wait and it's, you know, it's a thing a
person definitely would stumble over. I know, I do.
JIM: You know, he's sitting there under
these conditions right now trying to get this stuff put
together for --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right, right.
JIM: why couldn't he do that in jail?
What's the difference between doing that inside and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know. I don't
know.
JIM: He'd have plenty of time to do it.
wdO 0
23
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I thought the same thing.
I mean, seriously, I'm no different than you. I don't
know. In fact, you know, I suppose I can get an answer
from him. I can ask him about it. I know he's working
at it now and with the papers all over. Maybe it's the
access he has to having it typed out or -- I don't
know. What would he have -- would he have a typewriter
in jail or someone to type it for him or to
grammatically check it or -- can you tell me? I don't
know.
JIM: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me explain
something to you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JIM: What it really appears is that you're
just kind of using a lame excuse for the daily on not
getting this thing put together. So, why don't you
call us back --
u
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What excuse --
JIM: -- after you find out what sort of
progress is being made as far as pub1icat-- you know,
getting this stuff put together and getting it written
down. It would probably be much easier for him and him
to have more access to typewriters and publishing
equipment to get this stuff done in jail.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: well, you know, maybe
that's -- it - that could be a possibility. I mean if
map92 0»
you had some kind of --
JIM:Well, come on out then.24
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If you had some kind of a
guarantee or something I could at least take that to
him --
JIM: Absolutely. We can guarantee he can
sit down and write just as long as he wants to in
there.
STEVE
sit down there,
but I'm talking
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
and type the stuff up for him, you know, as he
dictating it.SCHNEIDER: Well, I know that
there and write as long as he
about having --
It'll, it'll get out.
SCHNEIDER: I'm talking about
We'll even have stenographershe can
wants to,
sit there
's
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I'll, I'll mention
that to him.
JIM:All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. What time - it must
be about nine then.
JIM: Yeah. Why don't you call me back at
about 10:30 and let me know what kind of progress is
being made on this.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How about 11:00, because
there's the press conference.
i
r~¢¢iO 0
good.
sorry.
I--25
JIM: That's fine. That's fine, 11:00 is
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is this -- who's this? I'm
JIM: This is Jim from Austin.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Jim from Austin, okay.
JIM: I'm with the Austin Police Department.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I thought I
recognized the voice, but I didn't place you at first.
You goingJIM:
STEVE
to be
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVERight.
SCHNEIDER:
around?
I'm going
SCHNEIDER
All right
SCHNEIDER
Okay.
SCHNEIDER:I'll get back to you, Jim.
to be here all day.
Okay.
Talk to you a little later
Bye.
connection broken.!
Q i Q Q *
Telephone being dialed.!
Telephone ringing - 4 rings.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: H8110.
HENRY: Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
92|921Ir- i, 26
HENRY: Henry.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Henry, 1...; is it?
HENRY: Just fine. How are things going?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. What happened with
the attorney? I thought there was going to be a pickup
for him or something.
HENRY: Oh, do you have the legal papers
ready?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
HENRY: Do you have the legal papers ready?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, at quarter to nine
they were.
HENRY: Oh. I'm sorry. I thought you were
supposed to call us.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, real - well, last
night before I got off the phone, I think I was talking
with - it was Duane and I was, I was so tired. I was
telling him that I'd have to still sit up and look over
the contract, which I did.
HENRY: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: This morning I had it
ready. They asked if I couldn't have it done by
quarter to nine because apparently what I was told is
DeGuerin wanted to leave about nine o'clock or
something.
HENRY: Yes. Yes. Do you have them ready
~--pt27
now?
s'rzv1: SCHNEIDER: on, they have been ever
since quarter to nine.
HENRY: Okay. Both yours and, and David's.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He -- his was sent out, but
nine wasn't. However -- K
HENRY: Oh, I see.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- there was a few things
to do with the financial aspects I didn't want to get
myself entrapped or caught in, so I tried to look over
it and change the language a little bit.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And --
HENRY: We'll, we'll initiate --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Last night, apparently, I
went to bed and one of the guys came to me and said the
phone rang and Clint was on the phone. Is that one of
the guys that are there at night or something?
HENRY: Well, he's in and out at, at various
hours.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: He has a, a particular interest in
the, in the scriptures and interpretation thereof.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see. Yeah, because he
came to me, one of the guys, and he said he had a
couple of questions, but I mean it was so cold -- you
~.-4..Q9292_ 92U: 0»
know, it was a cold night.28
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So once getting in, it was
already late, I had had only an hour, hour and a half
of sleep the night before, so --
HENRY: Is everybody okay in there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: What about the women that are
pregnant? How many women are pregnant in there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I believe two.
HENRY: Who are they?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I gave the names. You
already have them.
HENRY: I don't, I don't have them.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I know they gave them
out in the press. I heard them on the press conference
-- Bob Ricks.
HENRY: Who are they?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You, I mean, you guys are
efficient. Just ask them.
HENRY: Is it a problem for you to answer me?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No --
HENRY: Steve, I'm asking
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - still talk to you about
what we were just talking about. I was going to ask
you something else before I forgot about it.
andQ.-
HENRY: Well, you know, when you mentioned29
that cold and whatnot, I, you know, I had a concern.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah. Oh, Clint now,
well so, is he an FBI agent?
HENRY: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, he is, okay. Is he
going to be on again?
HENRY: Probably.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, tonight, I mean I
notice that sometimes you all have different hours.
There's been John-4 --
HENRY: But my guess is, my guess is he'll
probably be this -- in here this evening and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: -- you know, we'll, we'll look
forward to talking to you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: See, what I did, I didn't
know, you know, what angle he was interested or what,
so I had -- I told Scott, who took that phone call, I
says well, you know, write the questions down and in
the morning we'll -- I'll give them over to David and
he can answer them and that's -- I think he'll do it by
a tape.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He'll just take a moment
off and just answer that by a tape and so what -- now,
v--IQI30
what's happening with DeGuerin? Does he -- is he still
hanging around here or what's he doing?
HENRY: Well, look, let me just -- before I
forget this.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: I asked you a question. Can you
please answer this question for me?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What? In regards to the
women?
HENRY: Yeah. which are the women that are
pregnant?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I know for a fact I
already gave the name of, I think it's Ayesha.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I believe - see, now,
I don't - I'm not always into that kind of thing, but
I think who was the other girl. I, I'm sure they
gave it on the - in the press conference. Oh, what's
her name? Oh, boy, I can see her face, but I'm not
thinking of the name. Let's see, what's the name,
what's the name? Just a minute. Let me ask somebody
here --
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - see if I can get
somebody -- I just a minute.
STEVE SCHNEIDER TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
~...qnW 0»
Somebody here, what, what's -- who knows who's pregnant
here? I mean there's Ayesha - press conference --31
it's Nicki? Oh, okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They said that it's, it's
Nicki.
HENRY: Nicki?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: NiCOle Gent.
HENRY: Oh. Are they pretty far along?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Nicole Gent Little in fact
is her whole name.
HENRY: Are they pretty far along?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: With, I think, I think
Ayesha, I think she's due, from what I remember someone
saying before, I think I told someone on the phone days
ago, I don't remember when it was. As usual I'm tired,
but it - I think it was May, if I'm not mistaken.
HENRY: Okay.
srnvn SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: And Nicole --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And the other one, Nicole,
apparently - I don't know how far she is, you know.
To me it wasn't noticeable, I guess. _
HENRY: Oh, okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I get busy here with so
many things that, you know, some of those things, the
women and their children and all that kind of thing I'm
Q.-1O Qt
32
not usually involved with all that.
HENRY: She's not as far along as, as Ayesha.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know. I don't
believe she is.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't believe she is.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But how far I don't know.
I would guess - I would think, from what I'm hearing,
I think maybe, but it's a guess, but I think maybe five
months along.
HENRY: Okay. Now, what's old David up to?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's working on the -- I
know he's been working on the seals, you know, writing
them out and all that. He started, I think it was I
think yesterday morning, because I didn't even know
about it until all of a sudden he handed me a paper
with the statements that, I think that even Swensen
read in the press conference.
HENRY: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: At least portions of it and
that's basically what he showed me and he didn't even
say a word to me. Just handed me the paper and he says
go read it --
HENRY: Oh really?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. So I wasn't, you
1.»-0 92
C I Q
know, I was kind of surprised when I looked at it and33
he's been on that ever since.
HENRY: Has he got --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: See, once he gets some kind
of direction or something like that it's -- I mean
that's what --
HENRY: He gets focused?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Huh?
HENRY: He gets focused on that?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean --
HENRY: How many -- does he have --
' s'rr:v2 SCHNEIDER: -- himself. That's why 1
know you people don't believe it, but when he says
daily he asks for God and he gets this wait, wait,
wait. All of a sudden, the next thing he's been told
and he does -- he's not a writer. He doesn't write an
-- absolutely anything at all.
HENRY: well, now, does he have several
people working with him?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. Right now -- what he's
going to do as soon as he has the first pages, I
suppose what he'll do is hand that to me for editing.
HENRY: Oh, to you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, just to make sure
there -- it's grammatically correct.
HENRY: And are you actually doing the, the
s--1a " 34
writing or are you delegating that to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I probably ultimately we're
trying to get a,ia typewriter working here.
HENRY: Oh, okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They do have a manual
and -- »
HENRY: Good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- we have another one that
runs on batteries, but I think because of the humidity,
I think it takes like six D batteries, but I think
because of the humidity it's not responding too well.
HENRY: Oh, okay. And who, who, who --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't, I don't know.
It's a new one. I don't know what's wrong with it,
but --
HENRY: And are you the typist?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, sir; There's a lot of
women here that are -- like Judy, herself, can type 120
words a minute. i
HENRY: Well, now, she can't do that now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Not right now. She's
probably slowed down a little bit. In fact, she
actually can type, but you know that finger sticks
straight out. She just -- I don't know how she does
it, but she does. There's other women here though that
are very fast also --
92.-an. ' as
HENRY: Well --
srsva SCHNEIDER: -- secretarial skills.
HENRY: Good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So I think probably just to
make it very readable, I probably will do the editing,
give it to them, and that, that will take me -- that's
no time whatsoever.
HENRY: For you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, for me or for the,
the girls typing it out.
HENRY: It will just be longer for him?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. It's - right now --
he's writing and I tell you I'm quite amazed as how
much as he's been writing lately. I'm quite surprised
and he writes more or less phonetically. His
spelling's not always the greatest but, you know, it's
always - you always understand exactly what word it
is. ~
HENRY: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So -- but yeah he's been at
that now. He just took a moment, I think, to answer
Clint's questions. Haybe for you too, to help you
maybe understand how he views things. I don't know.
What, what's - I'm curious, because, you know, you
know, Henry, already I'm always interested in anything
to do with religious things. I don't care if it's
~40.9292-v
Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, whatever. But Clint,
does he, does he have a background in Comparative
Religion or is it an interest for himself or just --
HENRY: I think, I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- trying to figure this
guy out or what? i
HENRY: I think it's a combination -- I think
- he has a, an interest himself and he's, you know,
he's trying to see what, what makes David tick.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Tick, yeah. I don't --
well, I -- that's a -- I mean, I think that's, you
know, healthy for sure.
HENRY: Yeah, I think.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean even myself. I'm
always an observer still and, of course, you know, like
I've always explained. Like me running into him years
ago, it took months and months and even years and you
always have the questions in your mind. Always do. I
mean, they're never, you know, they never go away. And
you always wonder for sure about facts and, and truth
and absolute truth -- V
HENRY: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - and, so I mean I was --
that's why, like, I can't remember which one of the
John's were talking to me the other night, but I like
it when they raise good, healthy questions and Clint,
@411gs,» IF 37
him raising the question, you know. I don't care what
kind of question it is, you know. I think it's worth
asking.
HENRY: Um-hum. Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, you know, I just --
yeah, when they gave me the paper I wasn't sure, you
know, if this - if Scott got it down right or - so
that's why I was just asking. To make sure that, you
know, he got all his questions down and so I thought
I'd pass it on to him, being that, you know, that's the
main reason why we're here yet, so let him give an
answer and see what happens.
HENRY: Okay. Okay, well, if, if you have
the, the - were the papers in a --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They're in an envelope,
manila envelope.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And it's addressed to
DeGuerin.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then I - inside there,
there's three, three envelopes. One is to Jack
Zimmerman, one's to Levine. The other one's to
DeGuerin.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCRNEIDER: Yeah.
s~qiHi? Q Ii: 38
HENRY: Okay. Why don't you --
STEVE scam-:1m=:a= And -- pardon?
HENRY: Why don't you kind of have all of
that prepared and what I'll do I'll, I'll coordinate
this with --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: - with the people that drive the
Bradleys.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Listen, Henry, let me call
you right back quick to see if he's got - if he has a,
you know, a cassette with an answer to those questions
that Clint asked, I'll just send that along too.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So hang on let me call
you right back.
HENRY: Okay. Sounds fine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Talk to you in a few
minutes.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Bye.
HENRY: Bye.
Connection broken.!
I i Q Q *
RICK: Hello?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello, Henry?
RICK: No, this is Rick.
v.~~'Q ' 39
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Rick, how's it going?
RICK: Fine, fine, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
talking with Henry. I just
was. I got a cassette here
wants to listen to it. He,
that were asked last night.Good. You know, I was just
got back from where David
for Clint and whoever else
he answered some questions
I think there's about four
basic questions or more by Clint.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I've got that, along
with the contracts for the attorneys and I've even got
two little bitty pictures here by David's son, Cyrus,
for you guys.
RICK: Okay. Well, while Henry was on the
phone I ran up to the front
STEVE SCHNEIDER:office here.
Okay.
RICK: To try to clarify this thing about
the, about the paperwork, because remember -- I was, I
was also here this morning when you were talking to
J.D. about --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
RICK: - working on the thing and not being
quite ready. So we talked to the boss about that and
said, you know, what -- asked him what, you know, what
the story was on that and he said apparently the
arrangement was last night that they were to pick up
~ ateverything last night? Right?
srzvz scannxnsnz Well, no, see what -- when
I was talking with -- let me think. Who was it?
Duane, I believe.
RICK: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I told him -- first of all,
we didn't -- I wasn't ready myself and I told him I'd
need some time and that's when they said work on it --
well, do you think you can get it done by
if you --
RICK: Right. By eight - 8:45the morning
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. And I -- we had it
done then.
RICK: At 8:45?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. It was
happened is -- I don't know what happened
In fact, then hours and hours went by and-- what
at that end.
I expected to
hear a phone call anytime and it wasn't until Henry
called me not too long ago --
RICK: Yeah, I know, because we
here and we were expecting a call back by
said you'd call back at 11:00 and when we
hear - -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Did I really?
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I -- maybe --were sitting
11:00. You
didn't
okay.
92-it
41
RICK: And that -- and see, that was what
created the problem, because --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see. I'm sorry about
that. Usually, you know, I mean -- I -- oh, there's so
much -- people are always after you about 100 things so
I got carried away --
RICK: Yeah. See, it gets kind of messed up
because they don't, you know, they don't understand why
you're not calling back.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
RICK: It's like, well, maybe you changed
your mind.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, what's
strange is -- but it was ready at 8:45 -- "
I max: Yeah. '
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and, and I don't know
what happened even thereafter.
RICK: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It doesn't make sense to
me, but --
RICK: Well, you know, their, their position
is -- because we just -- I just got done talking to
them --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
RICK: -- just a few minutes ago and their
position is that, that, you know, they were expecting
s -i- QX 42
it last night because the attorney was here and then
this morning when we talked about it we told him that
you were to call back and when you didn't call back,
the attorney's already left. And so, their position is
now is if the attorneys aren't even here, then there's
really not any point in picking it up and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, that's true. I agree
with them on that.
RICK: And so, you know, that's kind of the
way it stands. I mean, the alte--
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
RICK: The, the, the alternative that he
suggested is hey, just have Steven come out and deliver
it to, to Zimmerman and let's, let's get the darn thing
rolling.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, that, you know, I
don't have -- I don't know, you know, how adamant they
were or how anxious they were to have it, so I
didn't --
RICK: Well, to be honest with you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: To tell you the truth, I'm
kind of glad because if I've got another day or two to
look at that contract I'd rather anyway.
RICK: Well, to be honest with you, they're
not anxious about it at all. The command here, because
it's a thing between you and Zimmerman --
uqSTEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.43
RICK: -- and it's one of those where if
Zimmerman says, well, the only thing standing between
Steve being out here and you all going home is this
paperwork, okay, fine, we'll deliver the paperwork for
you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
RICK: And --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it's not -- no, it's
not a big -- well, in that case --
RICK: -- it's not, you know, it doesn't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm like, I'm like the
commanders. It's not to me a big deal either.
RICK: well, exact -- I mean, if that's the
only thing left standing between us finishing this
thing up and everything being resolved, then --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
RICK: -- then okay, fine, we'll send a
Bradley up and we'll get it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- all the better, because
I can go through this thing with a little better fine
tooth comb because, I mean, you know, whatever happens
to me, I still -- if, if I'm released or I do get out
in some, some period of time --
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- or whatever happens, I
--an<
w_i ,
44
don't know but one thing is for sure. I don't want to
sign my life away and when I don't even have the
ability to make the kind of money that's being asked
for --
RICK: Right. Well, I -- and I think that's
a good way of thinking about it. Thinking about when
you get to come out and when you get released and all
of those issues.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure --
RICK: I think that's the proper, proper way
to think of this --
92 STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think they were more
anxious obviously, you know, about that than we would
be for obvious reasons, you know, I mean, the financial
part of that, so.
RICK: But they've already DeGuerin and --
they've already blown town, so, so, you know, we're
kind of out of luck on that»
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- didn't Zimmerman take
off last night or --
RICK: Yeah, I believe he did. Yeah. And
Desuerin hung around for a few, few minutes this
morning and then he hit the road too.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see.
" RICK: Because he's got, he's got other,
other obligations going.
a.-an" I
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wow, and here they were
ready. I don't under -- I don't know what happened.
It's strange because they were ready exactly as --
RICK: Well, yeah --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It got to be like ten to
and I thought, well, that's strange, because I knew
that you guys would call when you were ready.
RICK: Yeah. Well, I need to share something
with you and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
RICK: -- and we need to be real clear on
this communication-wise -- y
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
RICK: -- is that when you say you're going
to call --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
RICK: -- that's kind of a credibility thing
for the folks up front -- =
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. L
RICK: -- and if you miss a phone call, then
they're going to think you've changed your mind --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, what usually happens --
RICK: -- or you're off track or something
like that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What usually happens, Rick,
is like, for instance, I went up, I told Henry I was
§~ hoping I'd be back in a few -- I says let me call you
back.
RICK: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And he
listening to the tape he was going
least a portion --
RICK: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- but
turned out okay because he used a,
wasn't in the best of condition.
RICK: Yeah.46
wanted -- he was
to send out, at
to make sure it
a recorder that
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So I sat and waited --
RICK: Well, I think --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- until just - I just
brought the tape back in my hand, so --
RICK: Yeah. I think probably to forestall
any future problems, we need to be
kinds of obligations. *
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
make an effort to --real clear on those
I'll, I'll really
RICK: Because usually -- because that's one
of the indicators, you know, a thermometer if you will,
of, of where your head is at. If -- whether or not,
you know, a simple agreement like that follows through
or not, so --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
~ i47
RICK: It's kind of like putting the
responsibility on you. A
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you -- normally, you
know, if a person, when you're, when you're getting
your eight hours, even six hours sleep a night and --
RICK: Yeah. Oh, I know it's tough --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, I tell you.
RICK: This is kind of important, because
this is our communication.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I realize it is. I realize
it is, but in any one given five-minute period there
are so many questions here that need to be answered in
regards to life and living and --
RICK: I understand.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - eating and sleeping and
moving and, you know, all of it.
RICK: Yeah. I understand you have a
responsibility there and, and maybe we can do it this
way and let's, if we can, then maybe we can make a
commitment this way is that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
RICK: -- the 8:45 phone check, you have the
responsibility of calling us and then the evening phone
check, we have the responsibility of calling you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that will make it
easy because you said it --
miQ»
RICK: Is that, is that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Usually it was that48
I was calling in both times or would try to --
RICK: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- unless I was --
sometimes you're involved in something and, you know,
but, you know, by all means, I'll try to be -- a couple
of times I have forgotten or didn't notice the time
when I called --
RICK: Okay. well, we really need to do that
because that's what, that's what keeps our
miscommunication from happening and miscommunications _
can be misinterpreted as a lack of resolve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, I know that. I know
from your perspective there are so many people involved
there. I know it's, it's helpful and, you know, I'll
try to do that.
RICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I realize the position
you're in. »
RICK: Well, you make the 8:45s and we'll
make the evening ones and then if either side agrees to
make a call at a specific time during the day, let's
try to stick to that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Rick, but feel free though
-- tell them, feel free if I don't -- if I'm not --
a.~-1!,1?
in 49
don't call in a few minutes after 8:45 call me and I'll
-- you know, I mean, it helps. 1
RICK: Well, you know the problem with that?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What's that?
RICK: The problem is that -- with that is
that's interpreted by our people as, as you not really
caring about, about keeping this conversation going.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Not at all. It's just --
in fact, it helps me because when the phone's ringing I
can pull away from what I'm doing for the very reason I
need to be to the phone, where sometimes you get into a
conversation or you're working with someone and --
RICK: well, maybe you can explain to those
people that this is an obligation too for you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah, I mean I can do
that and have somebody remind me too --
RICK: Yeah, because I'd like to think that
this - I'd like to think that talking to us is
important to you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, it's
something that -- well, let, let me be, you know,
straight with you about this whole thing in the first
place. You know, these attorneys don't even want me
talking to any of you period.
RICK: Yeah, I, I understand that. They
shared some information with us.
' 50
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And so and then me even
saying when - after days have gone by when we really
weren't communicating --
RICK: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - I know the - here you
people are expending all this time and so forth and I
know you want to get this thing settled and done and I
appreciate that. I really do, so that's why I, I told
these guys - they, they told me the same thing again
about not communicating, but I am who I am and if I'm
to be judged by what I say at anytime or whatever else,
I mean, either one's going to believe me or they're
not. I've lived a life a certain way and, you know,
I'm not concerned or I mean I'm always going to have --
if someone wants to know what I'm all about, I'll let
them know.
RICK: Sure. I appreciate that too.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: =So, being on the phone if
they ask me - I mean I, of course, Duane was - it
seemed like he was wanting me to incriminate myself or
so what -- and if he is trying to do that, that's his
motive or not, I really don't care.
RICK: No, I think it's probably the way
we've all been doing is you've been challenging our
thinking and we challenge your thinking and it's not --
exercise here.
W i51
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, in a way yes, because
I mean I like you people. You know, I really do. This
tape that David did, you're going to see the sincerity
and the deep concern for you as, as individuals to -- I
mean, our views, you know, are for people to live
forever to do all that you ever want to do and never
come to an end, never have sorrow or death. So, I
mean, that's my first priority, that's his, that's
everybody's here.
RICK: Sure. You know one of the responses
you can give to people who kind of caution you about
talking to us is that we've had problems with phone
lines in the past. How many times have we had to, you
know, rerun lines in. Since this is our only
communication it's real important to be able to test
the lines a couple of times a day.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know yourself,
you guys from the beginning have recorded everything
and probably will use any and all of it against me one
day here shortly and I'm not really concerned about
that even.
RICK: Well, you have a choice about what
topics you cover too, I mean, and so do we.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, I know, but I mean,
you're legally speaking though right from the beginning
no one ever told me my rights. You people asked me
92.-Q0very personal questions dealing with what took place52
and everything in between, so without ever making any
statements about -- even Miranda Rights --
zucx: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- whatever that is.
RICK: Well, well, you know, my -- I have two
responses to that. One is, believe it or_not, you're
not in custody and so Miranda doesn't kick in.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see. See, I don't, see,
I don't know anything about it.
n1c1<= Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Obviously, not being in
trouble or anything.
RICK: Exactly, exactly. And, and the other,
the other response is, is that besides there not being
criminally charged. The other response is that as soon
as we could facilitate you talking to an attorney we
did that so that you wouldn't be getting it from us.
You'd be getting it from a fellow --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, the way, you know, if
you listen to the tapes and so forth, you'll hear Duane
and a few others, like John-5 --
RICK: Sure. And you've got, you've got
Wayne there, too, right? I mean Wayne's Harvard
educated and if anybody's conversant in law, Harvard
educated lawyer is.
0.-clSTEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, that's - yeah, he'sS3
not involved on the phone, but see for me I it
doesn't matter to me because I've got one thing on my
mind. I always have since '72 and that's allowing
people to judge information that I believe in and I've
always had a high respect for those that aren't
interested. I leave it be. The only reason why I keep
on going back to that on, in the phone conversations is
because that's what I'm about. So when of course the
subject on your side is come out, come out, I totally
agree, but at the same time I'm here originally and
foremost for the reason of knowing the scriptures and
doing the scriptures, God's will as I see it. So I
mean - I see that poses a real problem, but at the
same time I finally see it coming around now. I mean,
we've been waiting and things are starting to take
place and, of course, I've waited for six and a half
years, so for me a few more days of course to throw it
all down the drain, that's why, you know, I have been
the way I have been, because no one, like I've said
over and over again, is going to come and live in this
area unless there's something really great being
offered.
RICK: Well, I know you, you know, David
hasn't given you a time, but do you really feel in your
heart that it's a few more days?
--4»
.!!w
STEVE
don't even want
mean, I have no
never have been
RICK:
STEVE4
SCHNEIDER: Well, I don't know and I54
to say that, Rick, be -- honestly. I
- I don't, you know, I can never, I
able to second guess the guy.
Okay.
SCHNEIDER: I've been with him a lot.
I've seen him work so extremely different, even with
different personalities and different situations and he
never does the same thing twice the same way. So
that's why I wish I could honestly -- almost anybody
else, you know, you can read people's patterns and
characters and so forth, but with him it's not like
that. It's very difficult.
RICK:
STEVEUm-hum.
SCHNEIDER: And what you think is
normal one day, won't be another day. I mean, I'm
talking about six and a half years, watching him work
with scholars and their - people from the streets and
everything in between and the things he does and I know
that he's always waited upon his direction, always has.
So, you know, to you that's a weird thing that there's,
there's some voice telling him to wait, but no, that's
been a common thing. I've - in the beginning of
meeting him, I was aggravating frequently when I saw
something that should be done very clearly and
opportunities that would seem would afford someone in a
~-4religious aspect of, of doing something and
accomplishing something, but he would say not to do it.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And, of course, that would
be a frustrating thing when you, you reason, you
rationalize and you're looking at all the points and so
forth and disadvantages and, and you -- it's very clear
in weighing it all out what one should be doing, but
many times he has gone contrary to that, but it's
always worked out his way and I've always been quite
surprised. So that's why, you know, for us it wasn't
it's not a strange or out of the ordinary thing when
he said wait or that's what he was told to do. But I
do believe, though, honestly that, you know, what, what
was shown yesterday morning, what he first showed to
me, and now all the time he is spending in there and --
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: =- like I said, he's not a
writer, Rick. Man, Lord - good Lord no.
RICK: I realize it's kind of a - it's a,
it's a real process for him.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, he has - he's going
quicker than I thought because I, I saw him write out a
couple of pages and --
End of Tape #226!
~.~n_ 92
I Q 1
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #227
4/15/93 '
3:23 P.M. 4:10 P.M.
viI I 2
Tape 227!
STEVE: -- I don't know. Because I haven't
been -- he wants usually he's in there on his own. So
I'm not - I would imagine he will be quoting
constantly from the Bible.
RICK: I would think.
STEVE: Because, you know, that's the, that's
the test of all tests. For him it's like in Isaiah
8:20, if they don't speak according to this word it's
because --
RICK: Right.
STEVE: - there's no light in them.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: So I'm sure that's what he'll be
doing. Even on this tape I got to hear the last oh, I
think about 15 minutes worth of this tape for Clint
and whoever else wants to hear it.
RICK: That's stuff he dictated in the, in
the tape?
STEVE: Well, this was done just specifically
when Clint asked four, four to six questions, he
answered his questions on this tape. He took about a
half hour off or so and answered those.
~ _ RICK: On the tape. Why isn't he doing his
manuscript on the tape then?
STEVE: I don't know to be honest. I really
5.1i 92
. Q 3
don't. I -- in fact I was going to just suggest to him
again today to do that, so I'll just take the tape and
write it out myself.
RICK: Yeah, because it would be so fast.
STEVE: Oh, yeah. For sure. I don't, I
don't know. I think ~-
RICK: Because he could just speak and you
could, you could, Judy or whoever does the 120 words a
minute could type it, and you could edit it.
STEVE: Rick, you must, you must know that if
I have any intelligence at all or whatsoever any
education that, you know, of course all through the
years, that's what I'm telling you the frustration has
been seeing the obvious what would work, what one
should be doing.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: And then having him do something
totally opposite.
RICK: So, so you're saying that although you
can suggest things like that --
STEVE: Exactly.
RICK: -- in the past it hasn't worked.
STEVE: Well, meaning that he's directed by
the -- see, wherever he got the information from.
RICK: All right.
STEVE: Let's say in '85 he went to Israel.
~.J_1. '>
I I 4
You and I don't know if he met a rabbi or, or some guru
out in the desert, if God talked to him. I don't know
anything about that. I just know what he says. The
only thing I know is the information he, he gives out,
I go back and spend weeks looking to see if in fact it
is in the place he says and if it means what it says by
comparing the other chapters that --
RICK: Right.
STEVE: -- before that I was not able to do
or see the connection.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: So see that's why I'm here. No other
reason. I mean --
RICK: Right.
STEVE: - it's a daily -- that's what I've
tried to tell the other negotiators. It's not that I'm
adamantly in this place. Any day I could come out.
But for me it's a day-by-day thing of re-looking at the
book. Why am I here? How did I get here? Those basic
kind of questions one has to ask.
RICK: Well, how do you, how do you reconcile
that with the need for us to resolve all this --
STEVE: well, see I -
RICK: -- uncomfortable stuff that's come up,
you know?
STEVE: Yeah, well, you know, like for
~..-,_-Q.6 .92
O I 5
instance like you saying that, you know, I agree that
it is very important even in my own mind as a human
being living in this world right now to come out to get
this thing taken care of.
RICK: Yeah, just to get it over with and
behind us.
STEVE: Yeah, exactly. You know that --
right -- I'll tell you the truth. Those first 3 days I
was ready like the next day, you know, the first night
I, it was a little scary. Because from our
perspective, Rick, they, somebody came to kill us. I
don't -- they -- there was no regard of women and
children. You'll --
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: -- see that one day when you view
this building. You will see it clearly. So I mean I
don't care what Troy and all those people say. Let the
evidence speak for itself. So I was anxious at least
by the next day or Tuesday. By then I thought whew!,
you know, it's like it's off your chest. You're
going --
RICK: Right.
STEVE: -- to get out of this thing. You're
going to go through it. You're going to be done with
it.
RICK: Sure.
~41I
O O 6
STEVE: So in my mind, okay. And, and since
then even, you know, that's always there. It's always
there. But there's a deeper and I -- there is no way
for me to be able to explain without the Bible and even
that I don't think would make even that much sense to
you, because it's an experience gained that you just
can't tell somebody.
But I fear God more than I do the system,
answering the questions and all - I mean I'm going to
appear in two courts. This one on earth and the one in
Revelation 4 and 5 which all the prophets talk about
judgment, judgment, judgment, judgment.
RICK: Right. Right.
STEVE: So see that's why that judgment is
first and foremost to me.
RICK: And all of us are, even ATF, are going
to appear in that court, aren't we?
STEVE: Exactly. But see to me it's a, it is
a positive reality. It's not like oh, yeah, that too.
But no, that's first. You know like in your minds the
first, the first of the first things, the priority here
is, you know, of course us coming out and going through
that which is extremely important. No question.
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: But at the same time there's
something higher than that for me, more important. And
s-110 E 6 ,
I've seen a picture. But I would still need to be
given the time to show you how Nahum relates to
Zephaniah, to Habakkuk and, and back to Revelation.
Things of that nature. And it's very simple. It is
not hard.
And then one could oh, yeah, I see where
you're coming from. It may not be something I agree to
or that is for me. I mean you know, people can say
what they want and choose, and it's between them and
whatever. But for me, you know, I really am convicted
that there's something here, and that's why I've been
slower to move on out here even though, you know, many
things have been offered to me. '
And I appreciate these guys trying everything
in this world. And I, I understand. I really do. I
mean it's - but like I say, I do have a fear for this
God that's going to --
RICK: Right.
STEVE: -- do everything he says he's going
to do. And for some, the punishment, the
responsibility is greater. Because for those that have
heard and seen more, more light has been manifested to,
the greater responsibility is on them. "
RICK: Sure.
STEVE: Like, like let me just say the
statement like in I Peter, 4:17, it says judgment
92--I!' - 1
begins with the house of God. Those that have been
shown the most in this world get judged first. They
get judged the most harshly. So that's how I see
myself in this even though you've heard of many
incredible, bizarre things about everybody here,
especially David, wait until you get to hear from our
own lips and mouth and so forth.
RICK: Yeah, I'm looking forward to that day
too.
STEVE: You know, there's a lot of things I
have not answered purposely on the phone.
RICK: Sure, sure.
STEVE: Because there's -- I wouldn't be able
to unless you gave me enough time to show what it
means. There's some things I'm going to acknowledge
that you're going to be surprised about -
RICK: Sure.
STEVE: -~ that I can give an answer.
RICK: Well, well, I'm looking forward to
that day. I think we both are looking forward to that
day.
s'r1=:vs = Right . A
RICK: How -- are the children doing okay?
STEVE: Yeah, they are. They are doing very
well, in fact.
RICK: Are they?U D 8
viT '?
Q Q 9
STEVE: Yeah, they are.
RICK: You know I, I have not been here since
the beginning. Are they mostly boys or little girls or
what?
STEVE: Well, see now again, I sent out a
couple tapes.
RICK: Yeah, I saw the tapes but --
STEVE: In my -- I've never counted them
up --
RICK: Yeah .
STEVE: -- personally. You know, I'm so busy
with adults, you know --
RICK: Yeah .
STEVE: -- and taking care of problems that
the mother is usually involved, yeah --
RICK: Mothers usually take care of the girl.
STEVE: I mean, of course, I'm around.Mayanah
all the time and, but let's see how -- girl, boys, it's
probably -- I would think that there would be more
little girls than boys.
RICK: Are there?
STEVE: I think so.
RICK: Because I -- it seems to me they
were -- I looked at the tape, and the boys wear their
hair kind long.
STEVE: Cyrus does.
in -.' ,92_O I ' 1.
RICK: Yeah. A
STEVE: He's never had his hair cut.
RICK: Really?
STEVE: He's got -- yeah, his dad, you know,
of course is a musician. You know, David actually had
long hair right up until very, not too long ago. And
he's always -- because when he was younger his,
apparently his stepfather always gave him burrs, he
decided when he'd get older he'd want his boy to have
the opportunity to have it cut or long, whatever. And
being that he's in music his, his son has --
RICK: Umhum.
STEVE: -- he's at an age where he chooses to
have his hair long.
RICK: Sure. Sure I --
STEVE: And I think there's one other little
boy that has long hair.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: Yeah, that's right --
RICK: Are those the only two boys?
STEVE: That have long hair? Yeah.
RICK: Or no, I mean the only two boys
period.
STEVE: No, no. There's -- there would be
Cyrus. There would be, let me think, Isaiah. There
would be Joseph, Dayland, let me think. That's the
Q I»" 11
only ones that are coming to mind right off. That
might, that might be it even.
RICK: Just those four?
STEVE: Pardon?
RICK: What do -- well, what do you consider
a boy, what --
STEVE: Just a minute. Someone -- huh?
That's it? Yeah, they think that's it.
RICK: That's it?
STEVE: Someone was just standing here by me.
RICK: Yeah. It -- what do you consider a
boy? Like one of the, the real youngsters or is it
teenager boy --
STEVE: Probably those that are what -- I
still those under 12 I would imagine.
RICK: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE: Yeah, I mean that's Biblically
speaking, 12 is, is an age where you --
RICK: They were, they're -- those are some
good-looking kids. I saw in --
STEVE: Yeah, they're healthy and --
RICK: -- the video. They were good, they
were --
STEVE: -- yeah, a lot of them are, you know,
they're not ugly by any means.
RICK: No, they look very fresh-scrubbed,
~--id. _ _
- 12
wholesome looking kids.
_ STEVE: Right. Of course, eyeryone is always
proud of their own child. But I, I always like to have
people talk with Mayanah, because she is for a 2-year-
old, just a few months past 2, she is a talker and will
communicate at a level that you'll be shocked over.
RICK: Oh.
STEVE: Seriously.
RICK: Did -- does David still wear his hair
long like, like Cyrus is --
STEVE: No. He had his hair cut a couple
times recently.
RICK: Really.
STEVE: What happened was the -- he got
frustrated over the music. I think it was in '91, the
summer of '91.
' RICK: Uhhuh.
STEVE: And he left Hollywood, came back out
here and started working on his car, getting greasy and
all that. The hair was -- and he got so frustrated and
tired of the whole thing.
RICK: Cut it all off.
STEVE: Exactly.
RICK: Hey, I heard, I heard he has a tattoo
or, or a mark on his chest. Is that true?
STEVE: That he's got a what?
~.-~-II_- '7
his chest?
thought he
that?
on his bod' .J
I D ,3
RICK: A tattoo? David does.
STEVE: No, he has no tattoos. Nothing.
RICK: No, no marks or burns or anything on
STEVE: No. Uh-uh.
RICK: I just read somewhere that they
d been, had a tattoo from somewhere.
STEVE: Really?
RICK: Yeah, like --
STEVE: Oh, you guys will get --
RICK: - like of a cross or something like
STEVE: No, nothing. No -- he has no marks
y that, you know, not that, that's visible
anyway. No. I mean I've only seen him in shorts
and --
RICK: Oh, really?
STEVE: -- swimming but, but no, he has no,
no marks on him at all.
from outsiRICK: Somebody is trying to pass me a note
de the door. Can you hold on one second?
STEVE: Sure. '
RICK: Okay, hold on.
leap]
RICK: Hi. Sorry about that.
STEVE: Yeah.
~.-an92 ' D
' 14
RICK: They were - they had been checking on
the, on the attorney situation. They are in fact gone.
STEVE: Okay. Okay. _
RICK: So we're kind --
STEVE: Yeah, I want to tell you too I'm kind
of glad --
RICK: Anyway, I --
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: -- I, I -- in our break there while I
was waiting I remembered that there was something about
an interview where he had talked about dropping a
burning crucifix or something on his chest. Do you
remember --
STEVE : What ?
RICK: -- reading that? Yeah, yeah. I'm
serious. This was in the, in, in an interview.
STEVE: In an interview indiscernible! --
RICK: Back in, back in '88 after this Roden
thing.
STEVE: In '88?
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: Wow, that's -- seriously, that would
be news to me.
RICK: See I -- that's why I'm asking you.
Because I've read all this stuff and I'm curious.
' STEVE: I don't know anything about it.
,,
-..-415
RICK: No? Something about how, how he --
they asked if he had a cross on his chest. And he said
yeah, I was heating up a crucifix and it dropped on my
chest upside down.
STEVE: You know what? I never knew -- if
that's true --
t RICK: Have you --
STEVE: -- I've never seen and I have been
with him -- I mean, you know, in the summertime it gets
hot here and --
RICK: Have you ever seen him with his shirt
off?
STEVE: Oh, a lot of times. You know, that's
why I'm saying in the summer it gets hot here. And he
takes his shirt off frequently like a lot of the guys
and --
RICK: Nothing on his chest?
STEVE: Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
RICK: Chalk it up to another media thing
then.
STEVE: Yeah, well that's, that's
interesting.
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: Shoot, I never heard anything about
it.
RICK: Yeah. Because somebody just, somebody
/-
92 -Q1 6
overheard me asking that question. They said David
said it in that interview.
STEVE: Well, he --
RICK: Maybe he was pulling their chain?
STEVE: I haven't - and I, I don't know a
thing about it. I really don't.
RICK: That's weird.
STEVE: It, it is.
RICK: Well, look, look next time he's got
his shirt off laughing! --
STEVE: Yeah, I'll look all the more.
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: Sure. y
RICK: I'd be curious. I'd be curious.
STEVE: That is definitely a strange, weird
thing. I
RICK: Are you into tattoos?
STEVE: Not at aIl.
RICK: Oh.
STEVE: Nobody -- I, I don't -- I'm not aware
that there's a person here that has a tattoo.
RICK: Hmm.
STEVE: I've never seen anybody with one.
Let's see. who might have had one? It seems like
someone's been here. I've seen somebody with some on
their arms, but I can't remember who. I don't believe
mi. 17
it's anybody that's been here, you know, like in the
last say maybe 3, 4, S months. Maybe it will come to
me. But I, I don't -- there's -- I'm not aware that
anybody here does have one.
RICK: Oh. Well, tell you what, let's work
on those papers that maybe you can bring them out and
give them to Zimmerman yourself.
STEVE: The seals.
RICK: Your papers.
STEVE: On my papers?
RICK: Yeah. They're all ready, right?
STEVE: For me to bring them out myself.
RICK: Yeah, and meet with Zimmerman.
STEVE: Well, you know, like I said there's
two parts to me. But the part that over, usually
overwhelms me, the part that I've been going with is
that spiritual part.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: So I've been kind of stuck with in
that mode I guess. A
RICK: You think David, you think David would
ever be able to take that suggestion about dictation or
do you think he's --
STEVE: Oh, well I, you know, I will --
RICK: -- he's pretty much closed on that?
STEVE: -- you know I still will and always
~.4-4"92
18
do suggest a lot of things. I do.
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: But you know whether it's heeded or
not is --
RICK: Sure.
STEVE: -- another story. Sometimes he will.
A lot of times not.
RICK: Does he act, does -- or how does he
respond when you make those kind of suggestions?
Sometimes is it like a deaf ear or is he --
STEVE: No, it's usually --
RICK: -- does he listen and nod his head and
go about his own way? Or how does he react?
STEVE: It's always different. It's like you
can usually tell if he's definitely directed it's like
he's more firm like this isn't of me. And I've seen
that since day one. I'm talking about like going back
to '86 when I didn't know who he was from Adam. And
you know, I asked to take him along with me to meet
some scholars and so forth. And that's when he
informed me he doesn't do or go anywhere without an
answer or direction from God.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: But then the next morning that soon
he said do you have some tickets? Let's go. And I, I
kind of looked at him. I thought well -- and he says
.4¢ 0 ..
well, he was told to go.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: So you know, I mean --
RICK: Kind of coincident with you bringing
it up.
STEVE: Pardon? .
RICK: Kind of coincident with you bringing
it up. They happened to --
STEVE: Well, yeah. Well, yeah, a lot of --
RICK: -- they happened to happen together.
STEVE: No, sometimes I guess if there is an
answer I mean meaning that sometimes he himself will
just up and ask God what do I do.
RICK: Right. Yeah.
STEVE: He said the most frequent answers
he's ever had are the two words trust or wait. And a
lot of times --
RICK: Right.
STEVE: -- it's trust, my son.
RICK: Right. _
STEVE: And he says as a human being in the
flesh like anybody else, he says sometimes when you
hear that voice so much it's like you, you get kind of
a, what would you say, a rebellious attitude like
trust, my son. Trust my -- I mean he'll bear every
thought as you can tell by a lot of, some of the
uqdI
9 6 ..
negotiators he's spoken with. He has talked about his
past and, and all sorts of things. He'll, he'll tell
anybody every and any thing about himself.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: Because he'll tell you that his life
is written in the Psalms, 150 Psalms that talk about
his stomach problems, about back troubles, everything.
RICK: Where the, where the Psalms describe
the Lamb?
STEVE: The Psalms are -- yeah, in fact, they
do. The strangest thing - me being a Christian for so
many years believing in Christ of 2,000 years ago but
never having the power or, or living his lifestyle like
the almost two other billion Christians, you know. In
the last days it says we all have a form where we were
into rituals. But none of us are doing what they did
2,000 -- no, who's raising the dead, for instance, huh?
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: You know, so I mean really it's a
dead religion. It's people that have a lot of feelings
and emotions about thoughts about God. And that's what
most people's religion is. Mine is now based on the,
as the facts as I see them from the Bible. So like
with David -- what was the -- I got off here.
RICK: Laughing.! That's okay.
STEVE: What was your question, Rick? You
¢.¢aITIUSC '-
RICK:92
0 21
I was -- aughing!.. No, I was just
sitting here thinking that maybe it will be like the
trip where --
STEVE:
RICK:
and, and then we
STEVE:Yeah.
-- you bring it up, he'll think to ask
can get it dictated.
Okay, yeah, I remember what I was
talking about. Okay.
RICK:
seems like it's,
But --
STEVE:
many --
RICK:
STEVE:
the same thing.
RICK:
of us --
STEVE:
if, if it wasn't
know for sure ifI, I know it seems like, I know it
we're always asking when, when, when.
No, I know it. And you can ask as
But ~-
-- I don't -- I mean I would be doing
But that's extremely important to all
I wish, you know, like I always said,
for -- well, I don't know. I mean I
I'd have been in Hawaii and I'd have
gotten involved in something well, good grief, it would
have been done then.
RICK:
STEVE:Yeah.
But --
92--ifQ 6 ..
RICK: I believe that too. I believe in your
heart you want to come out and -- I
STEVE: Well, I do. I mean --
RICK: -- and resolve --
STEVE: -- you know, I still, I see
responsibilities that have to be, you know, still
answered to and, and taken upon oneself.
RICK: Yeah, and get clarity.
STEVE: Exactly. ~
RICK: You know, because so far like as, as
you said you haven't been able to really talk freely
the way you need to talk and want to talk.
STEVE: Well, I don't even know if I'll have
that opportunity. That remains to be seen. But that's
not even a consideration whether I come out or not.
RICK: Oh, I know. I know.
STEVE: Because I will anyway. So whatever
happens there. I, I like David in that letter or
whatever it is, that statement he gave to DeGuerin
about at least giving him an idea of when he's coming
out in relation to getting those seals out.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: He -- it's like -- I forgot what I
was going to say. Can you believe it?
RICK: The --
STEVE: Second --
miQ Q 2:
RICK: -- we were talking about the when,
when, when and -- '
STEVE: Yeah. Well, even with that, same
with me, he himself has been like wanting to come out
on one side, but it's like he still puts God first.
He's waited for this.
And he actually showed, you know, he was
almost like breathing a sigh of relief yesterday
morning when I went to talk to him and he gave me this
paper. And when I read the paper, it kind of surprised
me. Because it's like well, I had a ~- I was kind
of -- they said like in the press conferenoe someone
said something about me, I guess it was Zimmerman,
being somewhat excited or something of that nature.
And well, I don't know if it was that. But I was
definitely upbeat and glad that, you know, there was
something even for me to look at.
RICK: Right. ~
STEVE: And that -- because I've been waiting
here myself. Well, how long am I going to wait here,
until hell freezes over or just what here?
RICK: Sure. ,
STEVE: Like anybody else. But you know it's
at least -- he's been well, what is - he didn't
himself know what he was waiting for.
RICK: Um-hum.1
<.-up¢ 6 ..
STEVE: He got a one-word answer, and he's
asked a few times since then. And now remember, you
and I, I'm sure you like me do not hear any kind of
voices in your head or otherwise. I mean I never
bought that sort of thing. I'm highly skeptical of
people that say they have supernatural experiences and,
and if anything at all I usually suspect the person's
hitting on maybe seven of eight.
RICK: Um-hum. Well, it sounds like that
from what he's telling you this is kind of like the
last direction he's gotten to, to --
STEVE: Exactly.
RICK: -- to finish.
STEVE: It seems like this is the thing that
all of a sudden I think he's implying it would seem to
me that someitime from God's perspective has been
allowed for people to start hearing something about
seven seals, and now finally it's time for them to go
out. Now that --
RICK: Right.
STEVE: -- it's like primed and ready. And
whatever they want to do with him or the seals well,
that's fine. Like the truth of the matter is he
doesn't think that he will be anything but made some
kind of a spectacle and a bizarre, weird thing. You
know, that there's not going to be really any
. v_.!
Q D 25
opportunity to really get serious into theological or
into truthful statements from the Bible. He doesn't
see that opportunity presenting itself. And that's
what was in the letter.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: I don't either. I think that when I
come out -- he especially, when he comes out he's going
to be looked on as some kind of a freak oddity, and
that's how it's going to be treated. And however he
languishes in jail until whatever they want to do with
him. I -- that's what I see happening. I think that
the press will go away. The story is ended. They'll
go off onto their other things. The world spins around
until either we're exonerated by God if there is a God
or not.
RICK: You know, it's funny we, we did talk
about that before, you and I, and --
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: And you and I, I think agreed to
disagree on that. And because in reality I think when
he gets out and when you come out that there's going to
be tremendous interest on it. I think there's not --
STEVE: Well, there --
RICK: -- we're not able to give people a lot
of answers and the media --
STEVE: Right. There may be a few, Rick.
-..-4i J
I 0 2.
There's, there's always --
RICK: -- and, and there's a tremendous --
STEVE: -- there's always some people that
are honest. Like you know, the --
RICK: I think people are really curious.
STEVE: -- the masses overall though have
always been like sheep. You and I know that.
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: I mean if you look at governments of
the world and, and like communism of old or what's
happened to the Constitution since its inception --
RICK: But look how this is, but look how
this is such a unique situation. I mean you're --
STEVE: I, I truly --
RICK: -- you're, you're college educated.
You're a very bright person and yet deeply committed.
And these people are, are going to be curious as to
what has caused you to be so deeply committed to this
something.
STEVE: Well, yeah. There's always going to
be those people that want to know how they got here,
where they're going. I've always been interested in
three things in life. And two of those things most
people, in fact all three do not like to talk about.
My first interest has been God or religion. Also
health of my, the condition of my body, my mind. And
~.-1~ '1I
i 27
also politics. Those three things I, I've loved to
talk about, because they all affect me day by day.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: So a lot of people do not like to
talk about politics and religion. I'll talk about that
all day long.
RICK: Yeah. I -- yeah. Because it's an
area of study for you.
STEVE: Because of course I'm concerned about
where my money is going. I'm concerned about being
taxed to death. I'm concerned about people, others
taking my freedoms from me. I'm concerned about others
losing their freedoms. I like to hear people totally
express themselves like yourself or have the ability to
create or do what they can do or want to do. So I mean
I've had an interest in politics and, of course,
religion and, and health.
RICK: Steve, did you read the letters that
he sent out?
STEVE: Yeah, I did.
RICK: All of them?
STEVE: Yes, I did.
RICK: It seems to me, and I don't remember
which one it was, but he refers to this beast meaning
himself it seems.
STEVE: You know, I was - I wanted to ask
Q.-ad92
I Q! 28
him about that too. Because I wondered what he meant
too. Because in the Bible in Revelation 13 and Daniel
7 many places the beast, of course, is the whole
system, the man-made system, you and I. We're, we're
basically the Bible calls us beast.
RICK: Right. And also the beast --
STEVE: Because we eat, we sleep, we drink,
we do all that a beast does. The only thing different
about a man is you can make decisions, choices. And
that -- and also you can be called to a higher plane of
understanding existence.
RICK: And the devil has been referred to as
the beast too. And you know, and that's why I'm
really --
STEVE: The devil has been -- is that what
you're telling me or --
RICK: Well, I -- you studied the Bible more
than me have. But it seems like the, you know, the --
STEVE: As a serpent maybe? As a dragon? As
a lion?
RICK: Yeah, yeah. You know, right. It's
also --
STEVE: You know, it is interesting that
everything that Satan has been called in the Bible so
has Christ.
RICK: Yeah. And I'm sure he was not
92.--4I, I! 29
referring to himself as that. And that's why I was
curious as to what he meant by -- '
STEVE: Yeah, you know what?
RICK: -- this beast referring to himself.
STEVE: Yeah, obviously I --
RICK: I was very confused.
STEVE: Me too. I was too. And I, I wanted
to ask him and I, I actually did forget. Because when
I read it I came to that one statement. I know what
you're talking about, because I looked at when he says
this, this beast.
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: Is he talking about that of the world
which I'm familiar with in his studies? Is it a word
error, or is he talking about himself as one? I
wondered myself.
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: And it, it wouldn't make sense to me
that he's talking of himself. But it could be. I mean
I, I read it --
RICK: Yeah, it's not consistent with what,
what he's -- _
STEVE: No, you're right.
RICK: I'm curious --
STEVE: I agree. I agree. I'm glad you
raised that. And I'll definitely be asking him that.
~.~n92 !
|, 30
RICK: when you find out for yourself, let me
know too. Because I think I'd be real curious about
what he meant by that.
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: You know?
STEVE: Right.
RICK: I'd be -- because believe it or not,
everybody here does read everything
STEVE: I, I suppose they
Maybe it's part of their assignment
RICK: No, no. It's part
in --that's put out --
almost have to.
there.
of an interest
STEVE: Trying to figure out this off-the-
wall character personality.
RICK: Laughing.! No. I think, I think
you're putting -- we're, we're --
STEVE: No, no. I'm just
just saying that with a grain --
RICK: I know --
STEVE: -- as they say in
grain of salt.- you know I'm
the Bible with a
RICK: Yeah, exactly. Sometimes a block of
salt, right?
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: Laughing.! But no, actually just
trying to --
~-ml92
31
STEVE: That said it.
RICK: -- trying to understand, believe it or
not, what -- may, may or may not believe that. But
trying to -- I don't think anybody could really
understand without studying and, and working with as
long as you have or, or David has. But what glimpse
one can get by just the limited communications we have
as to trying to understand for whatever reason.
STEVE: I was interested in Swensons remarks
about myself today. It talked about --
RICK: What did, what did he say?
STEVE: -- me being as a docile person on one
hand. And then, of course, flying off on the other.
And --
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: I think if he was stuck in a building
with more than 10 people over a period of a few days
even.
RICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Along with --
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: -- along with just some of the
intimidating statements, the threatening statements
made from your side. I mean you know, there's a point
that a human being who has such a deep love for
freedom.
~--4i!
32
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: You just say hey, wait a minute here,
you know.
RICK: Well, I think the gist of the question
by the media was whether or not when talking to Steve
Schneider all this time whether or not we're talking to
a robot. And clearly you're not. You're a person of
emotion and of passion and of feeling and of thinking.
STEVE: Oh, well, no, I haven't --
RICK: And so --
STEVE: -- I haven't heard that stated on the
air.
RICK: Well, I think that's what they wanted
to know. And I mean he's not going to give a
psychological analysis of you. He doesn't know you
and -- » _
STEVE: ho, of course not. He's --
RICK: -- everything. But he can certainly
represent to them that he's not talking to a machine
either, you know. I think that's all that was meant by
that.
STEVE: Well, you know, that hardly matters
anyway. Because there's been so many untruths from
before this incident that I mean you ultimately live
with until you're exonerated by a God if there is one.
RICK: Well, yeah. And it -- and for
mil
Q Q 33
whatever it's worth in the minds of and eyes of men
when you come out and talk and give your --
STEVE: Well, you know, like --
RICK: -- and give your side.
STEVE: I don't know, Rick, if I told you
that. But I -- like even when I went to England one
year, I went back the following year, and I went into
this church. Because I was raising questions they
could not answer, they started allowing me to give the
answers.
But then when it was over, I had this mob of
people come up to me, and they wanted to know who I
was, where I got all the information. Because you
know, they couldn't controvert the information.
And then in the process -- the first thing
they want to know is something about your past like as
if that's going to change the truth you speak of which
they can't controvert. I'm aware of that. You know,
they -- mankind always judges what he sees, the bearer
of something.
So they said what is your name? I gave them
my first name. They wanted to know my last. I gave
them my last. Oh, we heard about you. You're the guy
that -- and then they went on in this, this long
explanation of this guy that came a year before in a
brown robe. And you wouldn't have believed --
~..-anQ Q: 3.
RICK: Were you wearing a brown robe?
STEVE: Of course not. I mean we don't do
that foolishness.
RICK: Yeah, I wouldn't think so.
STEVE: N0. I --
RICK: It wouldn't, it wouldn't be very
comfortable -- '
STEVE: You asking me that shows that, you
know, with all the things that you're hearing about us
anything is possible. And, and --
RICK: Well, no, I'm just asking.
STEVE: No, no, no. I, I wouldn't wear a
brown robe.
RICK: Laughing.! I don't know.
STEVE: Pair of blue jeans maybe and an
oxford shirt possibly.
RICK: I just don't see how you could wear a
heavy robe in Hawaii.
STEVE: You're right.
RICK: That's why I asked.
STEVE: And in fact, if anything I ran around
in shorts and a T-shirt when I wasn't busy with work.
RICK: There you go. There you go. But --
STEVE: Well, I mean I had all, you know,
right from the beginning and meeting David and then
sharing these things with I hoped very intelligent,
~@4~ Y .~s
O Q a ..
educated people and everything in between with maybe
open minds that they would give me a very good response
to what he had.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: But on the contrary, I learned very
quickly that when they had no response whatsoever, no
answers, I'm talking about scholars, then all of a
sudden I started getting these rumors and slanderous
statements that were floating around all over the place
against me. I'm talking about places like England,
America here. I mean it happened all the time.
RICK: How, how were they able to hear about
you all the way in England?
STEVE: Well, when I was there. It's because
like you deal in one denomination. Let me give you an
example. I was kicked out of the Seventh Day Adventist
Church. They kicked me out because when I first met
this man Mark Breault who introduced me to David, he
was, he's blind in his right eye, has little vision in
his left. He's, he's a young guy that didn't seem to
know a lot about the Bible.
He went away and came back 6 months later to
Hawaii. This was in '86 when I was there. And he
starts opening up all this information. And I says
well, Mark, where did you get this? And he started
telling me, he, I wouldn't believe it if he told me.
~.~4G
And I says well, try me. And
this guy that's in California
So after a while, I
I went around to a lot of the
brought the person, you know,>
then he tells me
started checking
scholars there.
David back. And
the process, of course, went through all the36
about
it out.
I
then in
information and like they analyze it, re-analyze it,
checked it out and --
RICK: Um-hum. Um-hum. Somebody, somebody
asked me about, to ask you something about the kids.
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: Because they're trying to -- because
you said there were four boys. And --
STEVE: I -- that I'm remembering.
RICK: And Isaiah is a boy?
STEVE: I'm trying to picture them in -- yes,
he is.
RICK: Okay. And is, is -- are Isaiah and
Joseph both David's children?
STEVE: Well, really, all of --
RICK: Were they adopted by --
STEVE: -- you know, all of us, you know, we
all, you know, because we, we love people, children
included, of course, especially. You know, everybody
has a real soft spot for children, innocent kids. But
you know, David considers all of them to be his. And
92. *4O 37
he treats them, you know, some children have come here
without a father at all. i V
RICK: Oh, I understand that. I'm --
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: I -- _
STEVE: You know, like there's a lot of these
that aren't that he calls his that are even in the
video so.
RICK: Right. I understand that. And I'm
not trying to be indelicate. But I was wondering if
he, if he conceived them.
STEVE: No, not all of them. No.
RICK: How about Isaiah and Joseph? That
was, that was what I was --
STEVE: Well, I could, you know, it's - I
think it would be very clear to you if he did or
didn't. But let, let him, the next he's time he's on
the phone, make that a question to ask him.
RICK: Okay, I'll tell them --
STEVE: Those, you know, those kind of things
I, you know, when it comes to personal and things, I
don't know what he wants to say about himself or how,
you know, he will get into it and even beyond what
you're asking. So I mean that's why I'd rather leave
that to him. But anything you want to know about me or
my personal life, but be expecting for me to ask you
and92
sit Q! 38
about yours also
RICK: Well, what I'll do is I'll suggest to
them that when they talk to David that they --
STEVE:
RICK:
not asking you.
STEVE:
RICK:
STEVE:
RICK:
STEVE:
RICK:
STEVE:
RICK:You know --
-- that they ask him so that they're
Okay.
Does that, does that sound good? _
Yeah.
Okay. Laughing.!
Sure.
Okay.
Sure.
I think, I think just sometime I'm
trying to get a feel for, for these children. You
know, because you have made it real clear and David has
too that you're concerned about their welfare. It's
been no secret that we're concerned about their
welfare.
STEVE: Well, should I, could I, could I let
you in on something? I'm more concerned about your
welfare than I am of any day of the week of these
children.
RICK:
STEVE:
RICK:In the spiritual sense.
In any and all senses.
Well, I appreciate that.
w--ml! 6 3.
STEVE: Because I mean if what we believe is
true, and I know no one buys it. No one does. And I
don't -- I probably would not either if it wasn't all
the time I've spent looking at the Bible. But I am
extremely concerned for your physical well-being. And
that's just because of course it's natural disaster
that he wrote about and was sent to you.
RICK: And you think something is going to
happen to me out here? With a natural disaster?
STEVE: well, I don't know that anything will
happen to any of you. But I mean definitely, you know,
there's -- it is a warning. And it's in response to
this God that he says talks to him.
RICK: Right. Right.
STEVE: So I mean I'm concerned because I
know these seven seals which hold the wrath of God and
says how he's going to react to men in the final days
which I believe are right oh us. I mean after all, how
long is this earth going to go on like this? Six
thousand years is a lot of time for man to do it his
way and figure out it doesn't work.
RICK: Yeah. What -- is there -- do you
think that this might coincide with his manuscript like
for example he's --
STEVE: Oh, I would have no idea about that,
Rick. I mean, you know --
sad.>_ ii
C O. .0
RICK: If he, if he's explaining say the
sixth seal, seal to us, will that trigger some kind of
event do you think?
STEVE: You, you -- your guess is as good as
mine.
RICK: Because I don't, you know, again I'm
not as familiar --
STEVE: Unless he, unless he makes a
statement, you know, there is no - I mean we don't --
we're never into a guessing game or speculation. Even
the students here that have been here with him a long
time.
Like if you look at II Peter 1:20 it says
know this first. No prophecy of the Scripture is of
any private interpretation. Meaning you can't just
guess at it. So even what he gets in relation always
to the Bible --
RICK: Right. s
STEVE: -- it's not a guessing thing. You
can hit him with any kind, the hardest questions you
have. You can try to pull the carpet out from under
him. When I first met him, I'd ask him the same
question four, five different ways in the course of the
conversation, coming back to the question, rewording
it, trying to catch him. But what he would do is go
deeper and deeper into the subject matter until I was
~..-40' I .1
totally lost for any kind of questions.
RICK: Well, that question was based more on
what you know rather than what you think or what --
STEVE: Right, I understand. No, no. I know
that. But I -- you --
RICK: Because I don't know.
STEVE: -- you saw I took that opportunity to
drop in a statement from the Bible.
RICK: Laughing.!
STEVE: You, you know that.
RICK: And I laughing! --
STEVE: Laughing.! Rick, you're --
RICK: And I've learned, and I've learned it.
That's something you enjoyed doing and that's fine.
s'rsv1:-:= Laughing . !
RICK: No, I have problem with it.
STEVE: I know those guys there, I mean they
tolerate me to say the besti I mean I, I mean I can --
in my mind, I can see them all laughing. And this
stupid jerk, when are we going to get him out of there?
And but at the same time I do have a deep appreciation
for these guys. I like them. I don't care what
happens to me. I hope every one of you make it.
I -- all I can imagine is one day living in
such total harmony and perfection. And I don't see
that too far from now. I really don't.
e.-4RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: And I'd give anything in this world
if people just -- you know, people like to watch TV.
They like to be entertained. The movies --
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: - and this is a movie.
Everything - we've always said -- David has always
stated that Satan, the highest archangel under God that
has such power and himself works with men even now. I
mean he has never been an originator or a creator.
Only perverts and counterfeits realities, truths of God
that exist in this universe.
So this is why I used to ask people have you
ever seen the movie Cocoon? And if they said they
have, well, of course, these beings, these aliens take
off their rubber suits which are really humanity, the
clay. They're beings of light. Well, that's really
found in the Bible all over the place.
I mean you can look at so many of these
movies, like Raiders of the Lost Ark for instance. You
probably saw it I would imagine. Most people have.
You ever 4- have you ever seen that, Rick?
RICK: I sure did. I, I thought it was very
interesting.
STEVE: Well, that actually is taken from,
jot it down, Zechariah 14. And you'll find like
~4uI0 ,3
verses --
RICK: What, the movie is?
STEVE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean the very
subject matter about the ark, about their eyes. Did
you notice how they melted out the tongues, the skin,
the face? That's all Biblical. That's -- look at
Zechariah 14. And you'll find that's where Steven
Spielberg which, of course, he's Jewish. So his
background would have some, he'd have some relationship
to the Scriptures or at least to the old.
RICK: Let me, let me ask you something,
Steve --
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: -- that kind of relates to something
you said a second ago where, where you talking about
asking him five different ways trying to trip him up?
STEVE: Right.
RICK: Without asking you to admit to
something or anything like that have you ever really
thought, though, about what if he's wrong and what kind
of implications that might have?
STEVE: All the time. I must say I did more
in the first say 4 years. And since then, of course,
it's not that you don't. I still do. In fact --
RICK= Yeah. I, I was thinking --
STEVE: -- let's say, let's say as soon as
sun . 44
even I think it was yesterday or yeah, yesterday was a
day that I spent a lot of the day wondering if there
actually even is a God, if this book is true.
RICK: Well, no. I'm not talking about
fundamental about whether or not there's a God. We're
talking about David. And I'm talking --
I STEVE: Oh, yeah. But of - I mean --
RICK: In light of --
STEVE: Listen, Rick. If I, if I question
the Bible and God how much more David.
RICK: And I'm wondering --
STEVE: Do you understand what I'm saying?
RICK: And I'm wondering if in light of
what's happened the last month or so if you've really
thought about it and, and what the risk is involved.
STEVE: Oh, yeah. For sure.
RICK; If you're wrong, what's going to
happen to your soul? a
STEVE: Positively. Positively. I mean
frequently everyone here has. That's why believe me,
it's not an easy thing. Believe me, these are not
robots here. These are not brainwashed Moonies.
RICK: Right. ~
STEVE: Hare Krishnas. These are people
that, you know, you're concerned every minute of every
day about am I doing the right thing. You get -- you
~~nI I ,5
have butterflies, apprehension. You know, all of it.
And I mean no, I don't -- there's nothing I've ever
taken for granted. I don't now. I, I still don't take
for granted this man is factually, positively,
unquestionably right. No way.
You know, I mean more than I even question
like the Bible. It was written by a lot of guys over a
period of time. I don't know if they were burping over
their pizzas and having bad dreams late at night and
writing them down. '
I'll tell you the truth. I think a Christian
is a very gullible, stupid person if they accept the
Bible just traditionally because their parents believed
in it. Because --
RICK: Sure.
STEVE: -- if you open up its pages it's,
it's nuts. I mean it's worse to me than Alice and
Wonderland when you read, for instance, Isaiah 20
through 23. The -- most of Zechariah. A lot of
Daniel. What are these guys on?
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: Seriously. You know, so that's why
through the years when I looked at a lot of so-called
holy books and the philosophies of men even including
bar-room philosophy. And I mean you compare all these
things. You're looking for something solid and always
.44Q ¢ ,6
keeping, knowing that probably you'll never find
anything totally, holistically perfect. But I, that's
why I say I've always gone by weight of evidence.
RICK: You know, if, if all of you are really
soul searching or, or searching your hearts on this
kind of the thing and the doubts, it's real curious to
me, I'm wondering why more people haven't come out
then. Because invariably if, if folks are really --
STEVE: I think --
RICK: -- challenging themselves that some
might --
STEVE: Right.
RICK: -- might think that they need to come
out in --
STEVE: And I have.
RICK: -- in perspective.
STEVE: You know, you'll find out one day,
you know, whether you believe it or not that I really
have done that.
RICK: Have done what?
STEVE: You know challenged the people and
their thinking myself. l
RICK: No, I'm wondering why they haven't
challenged themselves.
STEVE: Well, they have. They have. That's
why I said it's not an easy thing. But I guess those
»--'4O 6 .,
that still remain here yet to this time like me what
probably the best way to express or ekplain it is the
weight of evidence. It seems to be with him or in his
court.
Not that all the answers are there. Because
there's questions I still have that have not yet been
answered. But there have been questions I've had that
I never dreamed you could ever even mention to another
human being and even hope for any kind of an answer.
RICK: Do you think, do you think part of
some of these people motivation might be that as hard
as it is in there, at least that's known, and they
really have an unknown coming out? Do they really have
doubts about how well they'd be treated and everything?
STEVE: No. I really don't. I think, you
know, there's some that are, of course,-afraid. No
question. You know, I mean they don't say that. But
you can tell. You know, you can tell. But that would
not be a reason to keep on staying in here. Because
everyone knows you've got to. And like you say, it's
been implied that the longer you stay, the worse it
gets.
RICK: Because I, you know, I would think
that there's a real mistrust or a real, of coming out.
And that they --
STEVE: No, not really. I --
92. an.~!
. D _ 49
RICK: -- really don't think they'll be taken
care of. H
STEVE: -- I don't think anybody has total,
complete faith in the system just because of their own
experiences through life being from all over America
and knowing that it's men judging men, and me are so
fallible. And you know, there's, there have been
people innocent that have been sent up. And on the
other hand, there's been many that have been bad that
have been let loose. And so, you know, they're aware
of that just like I am.
And you always hope that you'll get the right
kind of a judge that's, that's a man of wisdom, of
years and experience who will really --
RICK: And if they have, and if they have
faith in whatever happens is the way it's supposed to
happen.
STEVE: I must admit, my experience with _
judges, though, have not, it's not been good. I mean I
have been in, in view of some where I've not been had
to be in court but for someone else. And there's been
a few that I've thought did a very good job. But
overall these -- a lot of these guys I, I don't put a
lot into.
RICK: But you would also grant me that if
you have faith what happens is what's supposed to
v -miI i 49
happen.
STEVE: I do. '
RICK: I mean that's the essence of faith,
right?
STEVE: I do.
RICK: And it doesn't matter what a human
judge --
STEVE: That's why overall -- yeah.
RICK: You know. It's not in the human
judge's hands. It's --
STEVE: Truly, oh, that's about -- you're
right about that. I'm glad --
RICK: I mean that's pretty fundamental.
STEVE: -- you brought that up. Because
that's, that's the bottom line.
RICK: Yeah. What happened to those three
folks that you'd been working with that were talking
about coming out?
STEVE: They -- when I started pushing them
the next day or two I started - I'd walk away a little
while, come back. And they said that yes in -- it was
true that I did notice that, you know, they were
thinking about a lot of things.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: And they says -- you know what really
kind of made -- I can't remember what day it was. But
~--.1Q 0 so
then right after that is when I was still talking with
them when that letter came out. And that made a lot of
difference to them.
RICK: Well --
STEVE: They kind of thought if they stayed a
few more days maybe that -- what even they had
themselves waited up and, you know, until now. And
maybe he was going to have something they could just
breathe a sigh of relief and comeout.
So now that he's not started working on these
seals, actually putting them into written form. I've
asked a couple of them. They
me well, you know, you know.
We'll let you know if we want
they, how they've answered me
RICK: I wonder why
instead of just leaving David
his manuscript -- '
STEVE: Well --just, they just look at
Don't you worry about it.
to. That's kind of what
now.
they're waiting for that
to write his, to write
RICK: -- without them?
STEVE: Maybe what I'll end up doing, I'll go
talk to those three and see if they want to get on the
phone with you. And if they want to, you know, I mean
I'm never around unless people want me to be. I
mean --
RICK: Yeah, sure.
1--:19 ' ..
STEVE: -- I don't care who talks, who says
what. But -- Q
RICK: Well, I'm speaking even in a general
sense.
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: Why people would be wanting to stay
there while he's writing as opposed to just coming on
out. If they know that this is going to be finishing
soon as soon as he does his manuscript why they're not
say the mothers --
STEVE: I think it's because --
RICK: -- or something like that coming on
out --
STEVE: Okay --
RICK; -_ and then he can finish --
STEVE: Probably because --
RICK: -- finish his business.
STEVE: Here's the biggest reason, Rick.
Because we still get the most awesome studies. We
really do. And there's still like he said. You know,
like Clint asked a good question in regards to the seal
what seal are we in and so forth.
But even though we know where the seals are
located in the Bible, the seventh seal which it means
complete, the final on all seals, has not really been
opened completely and totally to, to a great
mi. s2
understanding for all involved here. And for that
reason, you know, we're all looking to see the final
bits and pieces. It's like all the bricks are there
and a lot of the mortar.
Just a minute. I -- one second here.
[gap]
STEVE: I'm back.
RICK: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE: So the reason is I think they want
to, you know, well see the last bits and pieces and how
this whole picture is. I think that they don't see
that if they got into the system that they're going to
have that opportunity.
RICK: That, that they're not going to
have --
STEVE: You know, they won't have direct
access to him to hear what it was or that they'll hear
right from his own words, you know --
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: -- how this picture all fits
together.
RICK: Uh-huh. I want you if you would
explain something about the seals to me.
STEVE : Okay .
RICK: Because it's not something that I've
studied. And we were talking about the opening of the
Q-4U O ..
seals versus a manuscript writing about the seals,correct? I
STEVE: Right.
RICK: Okay. And we are, we are in the seals
now. And are we --
STEVE: Well, you aren't. See he -- this
tape that I wanted to get out to you sometime today he
explains that. So all that is answered. And I don't
want to be redundant by --
RICK: Yeah, I know. And I'm, I'm kind of
looking for the table of contents version. Because I
know you don't want to get into a long thing and
neither do I but --
STEVE: Right. Well, like, like he says on
the tape, you and those that are with you are not in
any of the seals.
RICK: Because we haven't been --
STEVE: Well -- H
RICK: -- it hasn't been revealed to us yet.
STEVE: Well, see a seal, if you go into the
book of Ephesians and all over, a seal is, is
information. It's, it's information that's true
information. That's simply what it is. And you don't
have the seal unless you hear the information --
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: -- you evaluate it and judge it and
s-1P ..
say you believe it to be true, then it's in your mind.
You see it. You believe it.
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: It's part of you. You have the seal.
RICK: So it's individualized.
STEVE: Oh, yes. Yes.
RICK: It's individualized.
STEVE: Positively.
RICK: And, and then we work through the
sixth and the seventh seal. But the seventh, opening
of the seventh seal to a person results in the end, end
of the world or life as we know it, correct?
STEVE: I can't - no, I can't even say, you
know, that's, it's too simple. It's not quite -
RICK: Okay, that's over simple.
STEVE: - like that. Yeah, it is.
RICK: So, well what seal are you in then if
you've been working on this?
STEVE: Well, right now we're in the - we've
gone through the fourth. We're in the time of the
fifth.
RICK: In the time of the fifth.
STEVE: Right.
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: But see, it's so in-depth because
like the statement is in Revelation 4, there was no one
~.-anr'92,
El 9
55
even able to look thereon. I mean there's a book.
It's a Bible. It's been around for years. People have
made of all denominations many applications to the
Bible. There's been no one that has come along that
has been able to show the literalness of the book in
relation to every testimony left by all the writers of
that book.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: I mean I could give you some of the
greatest scholars in the world. Because I do know them
personally. They're -- some of them are living
legends. Some are archaeologists. And --
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- like this David Noel Freedman
phonetic sp.! who's at the University of Michigan,
phenomenal. I mean phenomenal. If there was a man
that -- in fact, David has never met him. It's
somebody I've met years ago. And I -- tell you the
truth, I'd like to get him involved in this. I'd like
to have him really nail David.
Because the guy has been in so many
archaeological digs over in the Mideast. He was aware
very early on of the Eblephines phonetic sp.!, these
like 20,000 clay cuneiform tablets that have --
RICK: Right.
STEVE: -- information even dealing with
92-an3» _ 1
-' se
Biblical things like Abraham and the kings he fought
against.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: And --
RICK: I think that would be a very
interesting exchange.
STEVE: Oh, I -- it would be. And if --
RICK: I'm --
STEVE: Early on you guys, you people have
never believed me. But I wasn't kidding when I said if
these people, if you would have had them out in the
first few days after that March 2nd, it would have been
by getting a man like himself to -- even in if --
RICK: You know, you know, Steve, that's been
a continuing offer though is --
STEVE: No, no. I know. But I'm talking
about having -- they would come out by first hearing
somebody that had the ability to blow some of his
statements away. Because I've been able to do that
with everyone else in the world.
RICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I have not been able to do it with
David, Rick. That's true.
RICK: And it would be an --
STEVE: That's, that's why I'm here.
RICK: -- and it be a very interesting
~-45 d I 57 3 9
exchange. Sure.
STEVE: So if David Noel Freedman --
RICK: And that's, and that's why we've
encouraged David to do -- why do you think David hasn't
been willing to do that?
STEVE: Oh, he has been.
RICK: To --
STEVE= But he doesn't --
RICK: -- to come out and confront these
people?
STEVE: No. Well, the thing of it -- now
remember, you're -- we're mixing a couple of things
here. Number one, whatever information David has he
got it not by the way Dave Noel, David Noel Freedman
did. That man studied and studied. He's got the
talent, the ability that was his by birth to, you know,
he's got an awesome memory. He has got I don't know
how many doctor degrees. At least two.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: And the man has been just a, you
know, a sponge of soaking up information all his life.
And he can of course give that information to anyone.
At the same time, David, here's a guy that,
you know, physically had problems, dyslexia and many
other things. A stutter. Could never get his thoughts
together to make them plain to anyone. I mean that's
~..-anI DC ..
common to those that knew him all the way through up
until the age of 24 or whatever. I
RICK: I understand that, yeah.
STEVE: And all of a sudden, you know, he
gets all this information supernaturally or so he says.
RICK: Does he still have seizures?
STEVE: Pardon?
RICK: Does he still have seizures that he
had when he was younger? _
STEVE: I never knew he had seizures. That's
the first I've heard of it. If that's true, I never
knew that.
RICK: No, you've never seen him do that?
STEVE: N0.
RICK: Okay, maybe that's --
STEVE: No, I've never seen him have a
seizure.
RICK: Maybe he's grown out of that then.
STEVE: Well -- yeah, well, I never knew such
a thing. I mean I, his mother --
RICK: I believe his mom, his mom said
something about that.
STEVE: Oh, really?
RICK: Yeah, that's my --
STEVE: His mother used to be here. And I, I
knew her for a number of years. But I never remember
~40id 0
her telling me anything about anything like that.59
RICK: I think that's where I got it.
Because I read, I read an interview of her -- from her
And I believe that's where I got it.
STEVE: Well, that's a new one. That's,
that's strange.
RICK: Yeah, I believe that's where it was.
Answer -- let me -- do you mind if I ask you --
STEVE: Oh, you're, you're --
RICK: - another question about this
manuscript?
End of tape 227.!
92..-1_ i
Q 1
U-S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO &_FIREARMS
TAPE #228
4/15/93
4:10 P-M. - 6:24 P.M.
sand3 Q 2
Tape 228! t
STEVE: -- come out and, and so forth. Well
remember, that's what I was saying. So he got his
information supernaturally, and that same voice that
showed and gave it to him is the one that said to wait
in this building, whatever. See that's why. That's
number one. Everything else -- that's what takes
precedence with him is how he got it, and so he still
is obedient to that same source. There's no other way
to say it.
RICK: Uhhuh.
STEVE: That's simply what it is.
RICK: Well, when he does this manuscript is
this manuscript is this kind of like just a description
of the seals or is actually opening the seals up to
those of us who are reading it?
STEVE: It's opening it up to the entire
world. It will show you where that first seal is.
He'll give you all the text that for you to read it on
your own you will understand it.
RICK: Okay, this --
STEVE: We've never believed -- once truth is
opened up it should be able for you to discern yourself
without having well, my interpretation --
RICK: Sure.
STEVE: -- my opinion is.
~..~4,- J'5 b .
RICK: Exactly.
STEVE: You know, it's for you to go back and
pull those chapters together. Is that what it says or
doesn't it?
RICK: Well, my question is this then.
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: If this manuscript opens the seven
seals for us, and I read the seventh seal part of the
manuscript, isn't that going to mean the end of the
world? O
STEVE: Basically, you're right on top of it.
I mean it is in relation to that. Once the seven seals
go out, the world gets judged. I mean if you judge the
truth, and you judge it faulty and it yet is the truth,
but for some reason because maybe your carnal nature,
you love the world, you want to keep on going like you
are, whatever. I mean ultimately that truth will judge
you. It will destroy you. :This is the very key that
Christ brought up over and over again.
In the days of Noah, those that rejected the
message of Noah, they lived that message by drowning.
They had to learn how to swim. And in every
generation, Moses, all these men and women that were
raised up by God in contrast to the learning men, the
learned men of the day, they were always out of sync
with everyone. And, and God has always done it because
- -upl.,92
92 O_ ' 4 O
he's wanted man to judge truth and not his fellow man
who bears the truth.
RICK: Well, that means now if, if I'm the
one in the Bradley that picks up the manuscript.
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: And I start working on the seals and
work my way through
back where I am and
before anybody else
get to that seventhas I'm driving back and then come
keep studying and working through,
has a look at the manuscript, and I
seal and, and start working that,
then that means things are going to end.
STEVE: No, no. Not at all. Remember, we're
dealing with -- the
truth of God words.seven seals bottom line are the
God is into communication.
Communication, I mean the whole, the whole controversy
from, of man and God revolves on a word called trust.
And Adam and Eve, they broke their trust
relationship with God when God said one thing. God
says if you have all that you want to make you perfect,
whole, happy in this Garden of Eden. Just don't eat of
the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The day you
do, you will die.
Satan comes along using a serpent as a medium
and says you will not die. They believe Satan calling
God a liar, not trusting in God, his word. See, that's
the point. God created the whole universe with his
5-'10 Q s
powerful word, his thoughts made audible.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: And by that same word he tells you
the future. It's called prophecy. And that's what
salvation is. Telling you ahead of time what is going
to happen before it happens. So in every generation
it's usually the religious world as a majority that
goes contrary to the very clear statement of God.
Example, in the days of Noah, God says, only
chooses one man just like say, say like David. And
says I am going to destroy the world with a flood,
because the world is corrupt. And the world says no,
you won't. So they all had to learn how to swim except
for the eight. After the flood, God says I never will
do that again with a flood. And the world says yes,
you will. They build the Tower of Babel to get away
from a flood that would never come. And we find this
is the way the religious world has always responded to
those that God has sent.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: So it's very clear through every
generation what salvation really has been. In one
hand, there's a Ten Commandment law which shows what we
are. We don't live up to this standard. We'd like to
but we don't. So God gives you a way out which is
used, which is through the prophets. It's called the
92
T
92~.¢-0/_A"*~ .'0 6 .
testimony of Christ in Revelation 19:10. It, it says
it's the spirit of prophecy. Telling you something
about the future so you can be prepared.
RICK: Well, let me ask you something. Is
this a generational thing then where each generation on
its own goes through the, through the same --
STEVE: It is. This is why it says like in
II Peter, chapter 1:12, Peter says be established in
the present truth. So the truth for Noah was
definitely not the truth for Peter.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: The truth for Peter is not the one
for you or for me. You and I don't have -- we didn't
have a cloven tongues of fire experience like in Acts
2, and then you could walk away and speak any language
in the world like it shows in Acts 2 like he did. Or
we don't have the ability to raise the dead, someone
that's been dead for days.= we don't have that ability.
It's no longer here. In fact, it does make you wonder,
because such things don't exist if they ever did.
But at the same time, that statement really
shows why God has worked -- but the principles remain
the same in every generation.
RICK: Umhum.
STEVE: God wants you to believe a message
for that time that can be checked and evaluated by
sqQ Q 7
those that preceded before. So if prophet Isaiah came
along, he, you would not know if he was true or false
except for by what he was saying in relation to those
that preceded him, say Moses and Joshua, Jasher, Gad,
all these other men that preceded him.
RICK: Well, is there, is there there will
come a total destruction of, of the world though that
isn't generation --
STEVE: Ultimately, yes. But see the sixth
seal, when you get to the sixth seal, that's where it
talks about the stars will be falling, the sun and moon
will be darkened, the moon will turn to blood, the
world itself, not just a place in the world, will be
shaken. I mean you will find this in Isaiah 2, Micah
4, Isaiah 34, Ecclesiastes 12, Revelation 6, all over
the Bible. Joel chapter 2 and 3. Everywhere you look,
they all talk about this, this earthquake, the sun,
moon and stars being darkened. But no, man still keeps
on living after that.
If you read in Isaiah 3, 4, 5 all the way
through, Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23, all these places
God's mad with the leaders of the religious world more
than any. Because they've led people and kept them
from knowing the truth. They've collected money off
these people. They've charged people for the truth
which is supposed to be free. They themselves have not
m .-4g = 1i v .
learned the truth. A challenge was given to them, it's
Isaiah 41, verses 21 through 29 which actually shows if
you can show in the future then you're worthless.
Don't stand at a pulpit and say love Jesus.
And people live their life the way they want totally in
contrast to what God's will really is. If you don't
give them the information they need to know what's
coming upon the world, the judgments of God and how to
prepare for them, it's a joke. It's vanity.
RICK: Right. Well, is this then a
generational type revealing of the seven seals, or is
this for the next millennium or --
STEVE: No, this is the finally the end of
the world has come. Let's say this were the the
seventh seal brings the all the details how that, the
New Age will be ushered in.
It -- see, there's so many details I could
give you right now. But just real quickly, the sixth
seal takes the leaders of the world out basically.
You'll see that yourself. I could give you chapters.
It's not my words. It's what they're saying. It's
talking about religious leaders and political leaders.
RICK: Right, I understand.
STEVE: And, and that's in a supernatural
way. Because these are the men that have done it their
way. And it's been in contrast to God's will. Anyway,
suiv 9292 .Eb 9
they're taken out so the common man, just like it shows
throughout the Scripture, finally gets an opportunity
to ask his wholehearted question. What's going on
here? How come this? Why that? And they get to have
an answer.
But the world will still be going around.
The masses will still be here. But God is going to do
something to a group of people as an example to all the
world that all might stop and, and wonder what's going
on. And that's all that the prophets do talk about.
But then during the sixth seal, there's going
to be a kingdom set up as it says. I could give you 70
chapters of the Bible that talk about that.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: Where people can come to this
mountain that's going to yet be raised up. It has not
been. And learn the truth. And if they don't, it says
in Zechariah 14 there will be no rain. They're going
to get a plague. What kind of plague? Well, that's
when I was telling you about the Raiders of
Ark, that's found in Zechariah 14. But you
understand that without Zechariah 2, Isaiah
So if this is being recorded, I hope you go
jot it down and look at it yourself.the Lost
can't
2, Micah 4.
back and
I mean you know, even though a lot of you
people might be agnostics, atheists, whatever, I mean
92-IfvJj : 2!% 0 ..
if you look back and see the logical progression of all
this.
There
right
cabin
enjoyRICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: I mean there is something there.
is -- if there's not, believe me, I want to go
back to Hawaii, forget everything, go get my
back in, on the Island of Kaui and just live and
whatever I can.
RICK: And go for it. Enjoy the breeze.
STEVE: Exactly. *
RICK: But I, I need to tell you this. And
that is that I appreciate your expression of concern
for my and our safety and probably spiritual safety too
and --
STEVE: I do.
RICK: -- and whether you believe it or not
we, we share the concern for your well-being --
that.STEVE: 1, I -- "
RICK: -- both physical and spiritual.
STEVE: -- I believe that.
RICK: Otherwise we wouldn't --
STEVE: You know what?
RICK: -- be here. So I --
STEVE: I'll tell you, all of you --
RICK: -- want you to continue to remember
viwily ' 11
STEVE: I, I want to tell all of you as a
fact even though you know, you realize that I've gotten
one way or the other as, as Swenson said, you know,
there's times I've gotten mad or I've been frustrated
or whatever else. And even with all that, I still have
a very deep and great appreciation for every one of the
people that I've ever talked to on the phone. I really
have. And I do, I do believe they've never meant me
any harm. But if anything to alleviate the problems
and, and get on and see me get on with my life and
theirs.
And I know that I do believe you as people
have a trust in the system or at least are trying to
make it work to the best of your human capabilities.
So I mean that's why I, I could and I will not judge
any of you.
RICK: Well --
STEVE: Even though I've been frustrated at
times and one wants to bring up certain issues about
one thing or another, it's like, you know, testing the
waters. It's like throwing, getting a barometer out
there. V
RICK: Well, just, just continue to remember
that that's our goal.
STEVE: I do believe that.
RICK: Okay?
v...-4i» 0 1.
STEVE: Honestly, I do.
RICK: Otherwise --
STEVE: That's why --
RICK: That's why we're still talking after
forty some days. Okay?
STEVE: Right. See that's why I've never
been worried about the actual coming out itself.
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: I think that I'd be treated well.
Now I can't say that about the ATE. Because I mean, I
mean I know you don't want to talk about that. But I
honestly --
RICK: I don't -- yeah, I don't --
STEVE: -- I can't say the same.
RICK: Yeah. And that's, and that's okay.
That's just -- you know. I'm not comfortable talking
about that.
STEVE: I know you aren't. And I know that
you have a different role than them. And
indiscernible! --
RICK: Yeah, that's just what I -- yeah.
STEVE: -- involved in this and I was
involved in it and --
RICK: Exactly. We're kind of like separate
from that whole thing.
STEVE: Right.
~..-192
1? ' 1.
RICK: Our, our involvement ends once
everybody is peacefully out.
W srzvm Right.
RICK: And then we can turn things over to
the Rangers and --
STEVE: I can understand that.
RICK: -- we can, we can move on out.
Because that's what --
STEVE: There was something that I was going
to ask David for you and I can't even -- now what was
it after this long conversation?
RICK: I know you were going to clarify the
beast.
STEVE: Oh, yeah. That's - I'm glad --
RICK: Phrase.
STEVE: Yeah, I definitely want to do that.
RICK: Okay. And --
s'r1:v£= 1 better jot it down.
RICK: Hey, also glance at his chest for me
just for my own curiosity, okay?
STEVE: Do what now?
RICK: Glance at his chest for me for --
STEVE: Oh, yes. Okay. Let me write this
down --
RICK: -- my own -- just as -- because
that's -- well, I don't want you to make a big deal out
1.1449 1.
of it. But I want to know if that --
STEVE: No, no, no. I won't --
RICK: I, I want to know if that interview is
correct.
STEVE: Okay. If he's --
RICK: Or whether or not they were just, you
know, jerking the readers around.
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: Okay?
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: But --
STEVE: Anything else?
RICK: -- the other, the -- let me think for
a second what else we talked about. Two, two other
things if you would.
STEVE: Okay. .
RICK: One is if you haven't already
suggested the dictation maybe if you have suggested the
dictation will work out like Israel trip where he asks
and gets told to do it that way.
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: And the -- the only other thing
ask is that we try to do better on the schedules
the calls so that it's a clear message to the up
that you're kind of on the same wavelength as we
STEVE: All right. I'll definitely -I'd
and
front
are.
ea:i I 1.
RICK: You know, as far as not missing
deadlines. 4
STEVE: - make a real effort to do that.
RICK: Okay. If, if you do that, if you do,
do that for us, I'd really appreciate it.
STEVE: Will do it.
- RICK: Okay. Hey, you take care of yourself.
STEVE: Okay. You too, Rick.
RICK: We'll talk to you later.
STEVE: Okay, bye.
tit
RICK: Hello?
STEVE: Hello, Rick?
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: Hey, I forgot - so what's happening
about the tape then?
RICK: Oh, you mean the tape for Clint?
STEVE: Yeah. =
RICK: Let me check with Clint.
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: And, and we'll give you a holler back,
okay?
STEVE: Okay, I'll just wait to --
RICK: Because to he honest with you, I was
not even aware that you all had had that discussion.
And so I need to go tell him that, that apparently
=.-4§ . 3i 0 1.
David had responded to some of the questions by tape.
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE
then
RICK:
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
already?
JOHN:
already.
STEVE
JOHN:
srnvx-:
JOHN:
the tracks.
STEVE:
wondering --Okay.
Okay?
Just give me a call when you're ready
Okay, bud.
Okay, thanks. Bye.
Bye-bye.
iii
Hello?
Hey, Steve, how are you?
Is this Dec?
No, it's John 5.
John 5. Sorry, John.
That's okay. We, we sound alike.
John 5, what are you doing there
Oh, after all it's 2 hours into it
It is?
Absolutely.
Oh, oh, it is.
Little something on the advent side of
Time is flying by here. I was just
Q...-1~¢92 id ! § O .7
JOHN: Oh, you can't beat it. Go ahead.
STEVE: I was wondering, it was Clint last
night that raised some questions.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: David answered the questions on the
tape, but Rick never got back to me.
JOHN: I see.
STEVE: And I was wondering what's happening?
Did they want to pick it up or what?
JOHN: As far as the tape is concerned?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Well, we'll have to look into it. I
haven't been told and being well, to review what's been
passed on here.
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN"
the --
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
before.
JOHN:
STEVE
and --Why don't I look into it and --
Give me a buzz back?
Yeah. Do you want to talk to Clint?
Is he there?
Not yet, he isn't here. But is that
Yeah, I'll talk to --
-- general idea?
Well, I've never talked to him
I see.
I know he had some good questions
~..~¢I
JOHN: Um-hum. why would you want to talk to
Clint though? I'm just curious about that.
STEVE: Well, here's what happened. Last
night I turned in about, it must have been around about
12 o'clock or somewhere around there and --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- it was a pretty cold night.
JOHN: Yeah, you were working on your legal
papers I recall last night.
STEVE: Yeah, I was.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: So I laid down for a little while.
Then I got up fairly early, and I had them done by
quarter to 9 as was agreed upon. And then no one ever
showed to pick them up. So anyway, but last night I
was woke up by Scott and he said --
JOHN: wait_a minute. wait, let me see. If
I recall correctly, weren't you going to call in when,
in the morning there about 8:45 or so and let us know
what the story was?
STEVE: No. It was actually left that they
were going to pick it up or they were going to call me.
I thought they were going to call me at that time
because we took for, said for positive, for positive I
would have it done then and it would be ready to go.
JOHN: No, I think it might have been, might
mihave been mistaken on this one, Steve. But all right.
Go ahead. t
STEVE: You know, nothing would surprise me.
Because I mean I was so -- even before I started
working on that crazy thing I mean --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- my eyes were looking cross-eyed
but --
JOHN: Yeah, it's rough. What were you using
for light in there?
STEVE: Well, of course, you know, the light
that you provided.
JOHN: Laughing.!
STEVE: Laughing.!
JOHN: Indiscernible! all a part of your tax
statement.
STEVE: I felt like, I felt like Abraham
Lincoln --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- you know, with his candle in his
cabin in his days.
JOHN: Yeah. Well, did you use any
flashlights, or did you use your candles or what?
STEVE: No, I just used that, the light that
was coming through the window.
JOHN: Wow. That makes it pretty rough --
-..-4_92 5
20
STEVE: We've been going through a lot of
candles and - I
JOHN: Do you wear glasses?
STEVE: I'm going to after this experience.
JOHN: I can --
STEVE: I don't but, and I hopefully I won't
be yet.
JOHN: Um-hum. Yeah, I can understand that.
Laughing.! _
STEVE: Laughing.! John, unreal.
JOHN: Yeah, it goes on like that too.
It's -- that's why I always enjoy chatting with you.
STEVE: Nell, I've always been --
JOHN: Give me some --
STEVE: -- simply humored by you.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Anyway, go ahead.
JOHN: It's, it's all part of our tax dollar
here. Okay, so you're concerned about -- now what,
David had answered some question? Did he make a tape,
or what happened there?
STEVE: Well, here's what happened. That's
what I --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- was going to say. Last night so I
finally crawled off to bed. And --
~-492V 92 1 IW 4* ~- 21
JOHN:
STEVE:Um-hum.
-- someone came and woke me up and
said that the phone had been ringing. It was Scott
that told me this. And --
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
s'r1-:'v£ =
in the leg.
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
or QQ
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
is he an Indian?
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:Um-hum.
-- he said a man by the name --
What Scott is that?
Pardon?
Who's Scott? Our Scott?
He's the guy with the, that got shot
Okay.
Anyway, he came and got me --
Is that Scott Shore phonetic sp.!
Scott Sonobe.
Sonobe, okay.
We call him snow flea.
Snow flea. Is he -- what kind of --
He's Japanese. Hundred percent.
Oh, I see. Okay.
But actually born in Berkeley.
Berkeley.
California.
Yeah, I had a little time up there
Q.-492_- _
22
during the Patty --
STEVE: Crazy place, huh?
JOHN: -- during the Patty Hearst thing way
back --
STEVE: Oh, man.
JOHN: - in my last life.
STEVE: You were involved in that, huh?
JOHN: Well, that's when, when my heart was
pure and I had the strength of 10.
STEVE: Laughing.! I like it.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: So no kidding? You were back around
those parts then, huh?
JOHN: Yeah, absolutely. Patty Hearst in
1974 --
STEVE: You bet. Well if you, if you're
bored sitting there some day, tell me about it. I'm
interested. a
JOHN: Oh, you know. My time is coming to an
end here and --
STEVE: Hey, that was a strange thing though
wasn't it back then?
JOHN: Oh, those things are strange. Well --
STEVE: What, what --
JOHN: - of course, like you - I wouldn't
say they had a corner on the market.
xivi .3
STEVE: No, I know. I - right, I know what
you're implying there. Laughing.! H
JOHN: Laughing.! That's what I said. You
pick up on things.
STEVE: Indiscernible! dry sense of humor,
huh?
JOHN: Oh, absolutely. I work on that. And
it's - again, you pick up on things. It makes me feel
good when you talk like that.
STEVE: Well, anyway.
JOHN: Getting back to whatever this is --
STEVE: Oh, let's see. Yeah, I was just
going to say --
JOHN: - Bible business.
STEVE: -- he woke me up, and he said that
someone was on the phone wanting to talk to me. And I
says well --
JOHN: Okay. "
STEVE: - find out what he needs. Because
right now --
JOHN: About what time was this?
STEVE: I don't know. I, I was guessing
somewhere around maybe 1, 1:30.
JOHN: Okay. In other words, you had
finished your legal business before that?
STEVE: I did most - I generally did it.
~.-.1 Q ..
And then I got up this morning fairly early and
that's -- i
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- when I finished it off. Mostly I
did the majority of it this morning.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: But anyway, while I was laying there
he came to me, and I says well, find out what he needs.
And if it's not necessary I'll talk to him tomorrow or
something. But anyway --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- he went back and came back a
second time or a third. I don't even remember. And
he --y
JOHN: Oh, yes.
STEVE: -- had these questions about the Book
of Revelation, the seals, where we are in the seals. I
think, you know, it was more either two things I saw is
he's trying --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- to figure out the time thing maybe
with this along -- I, I can't imagine anybody --
JOHN: Well, Clint's pretty --
STEVE: -- having interest in us.
JOHN: No, Clint's a pretty deep thinker far
as that stuff is concerned.
~--Q~. "X I 25
STEVE: Right. Well, I did talk to -- I hope
that you got it taped where Rick and I were talking
about that. But I answered a little bit. But --
JOHN: which conversation were you having
with Rick?
STEVE: It must have been about I would say 3
to about 4, 4:30, somewhere in there.
JOHN: Was this Rick 1 or Rick 2.
STEVE: Yikes, I don't -- I think it's Rick
2.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: I don't think I've talked to Rick 1
since --
JOHN: Oh --
STEVE: -- that one day, have I?
JOHN: I'm not sure.
STEVE: I mean after a while, believe it or
not I -- at firyt I used to know the voices. Even now
I _-
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- Iim telling you after five Johns
and Dwayne and Dec and I mean --
JOHN: We're a maze indiscernible! --
STEVE: There's got to be about 20 people or
more there. And I, you know, trying to -- I only saw
that video once with the faces so --
~. -@92 v 92
.. , !Q " 26
JOHN: Um-hum. _
STEVE: -- and that's even faded away.
JOHN: Yeah, there's a whole change of cast
members since then.
STEVE: Right. I, I believe that. But
anyway, what happened is he did ask a few questions, so
Scott wrote them down and handed it to me this morning.
So that --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- I said David, here, do you want to
answer this? And so he stopped for a moment, then I
came back a little later. And he had -- here he went
and talked, he spoke on a tape.
JOHN: I see.
STEVE: Just quickly took about a half hour
off, whatever it was and --
JOHN: Yeah, this is what we're very
concerned about. We don't want David to be bothered or
interfered with while he's sitting down here writing
this spiel on the seven seals. We want him --
STEVE: No, I, I realize -- I thought that
my -- I was almost afraid to tell you that. Because
after all, John, come on. Whether you believe in God
or not, agnostic, atheist, what it doesn't -- what
matters to me is I like you. I like people. I like --
JOHN: You're sure you like me?
Mi- 27
STEVE: Hey, I --
JOHN: Do you really because --
STEVE: -- I'd like to party --
JOHN: Oh.
STEVE: -- with you out in space. I'm
telling you.
JOHN: Party with me out in space?
STEVE: I'm talking about doing some real
traveling throughout the universe.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Oh, good God.
STEVE: Sun to sun, star to star.
JOHN: That's only when --
STEVE: If you ever got to meet --
JOHN: You and my new, New Age friends I can
understand that.
STEVE: Well, yeah, I understand New Age --
JOHN: Yeah, they're all locked into this way
on out --
STEVE: Yeah, I know. I know. But that's,
it's a little, a lot different than what I'm into. But
you're looking --
JOHN: Yeah, they're really into channelers.
STEVE: -- from your perspective, of course,
but --
JOHN: Was -- does David consider himself a
channeler? '
~.-4w H 2.
STEVE: Never.
JOHN: Never?
STEVE: Never.
JOHN: No, okay.
STEVE: You know, those kind of terms he
wouldn't even be - I don't know if he'd even be
familiar with that. He's -- his background is very
strongly Judea, Judea-Christian of course.
JOHN: Judo-Christian or something.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Whatever.
STEVE: And when it comes to some eastern
philosophies, well, he understand what they're all
about.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: The basis but, you know, not the
details and the workings of them. So I don't, I don't
know what he would know about channeling and all that.
JOHN: Getting back to the seven seals
manuscript here, whatever.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Have you seen any finished pages of it
so you can start your editing?
STEVE: No. No, I haven't. Yesterday see it
was even news to me when what happened yesterday is
DeGuerin called.
sad' . i
2' 29
JOHN: Umhum. _
STEVE: And I had told David the night
before, I says well, now remember, he's going to be
calling back tomorrow at 10 or thereafter. And it
was --
JOHN: Right.
STEVE: -- I think it was a half hour later,
whatever it was. And I --
JOHN: Umhum.
STEVE: -- I don't, maybe 11 o'clock. But so
I talked to Dick. And I says well, hang on, I'll go
get him now. And he, and he said -- I got up there,
and he didn't want to leave right off.
JOHN: I see.
STEVE: I'm knocking at the door. I says
well, what's going on. Then all of a sudden he opens
up the door, and he hands me a piece of paper. And I'm
well, what's this? He says well, go read this to him
for a minute.
JOHN: Go read this to --
STEVE: Yeah. To, to DeGuerin.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: So I came back down, and I didn't
even read it myself. And I looked at it --
JOHN: Umhum. .
STEVE: and he was concerned I might not
~~-1¬¬z3t.- ilIl> so
be able to read his writing. But it wasn't a problem.
JOHN: I see. i -
STEVE: So I read it over to Dick, and it was
basically what you had, what I think Swenson was
mentioning today to some degree about, you know, the
manuscripts coming out and so forth -- "
JOHN: Right.
STEVE: -- with the seals. But I --
actually --
JOHN: From what I understand is, correct me
if I'm wrong.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Upon completion of the manuscript on
the seven seals, you folks are planning on coming out
forthwith?
STEVE: Yes. Positively.
JOHN: Now you wouldn't break my heart and --
STEVE: Well, you know, I, I believe this.
No, I'm talking about, you know, you know that I was
myself taken back by March 2. I, I honestly --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- I was. Because that's never
happened before, nothing like it.
JOHN: Yeah, the reliability coefficient
starts --
STEVE: Well, I know.
-..-.1' 1
Q Q 31
JOHN: -- breaking down and --
STEVE: Even, even to me, even to me. I mean
that was the --
JOHN: But some people would even consider
that a lie.
STEVE: Pardon?
JOHN: Some people would even consider that a
lie.
STEVE: I realize that. I realize. But you
know --
JOHN: And --
STEVE: -- if you gave him or myself an
opportunity to show you something in the book which I
don't think you really care to do.
JOHN: Oh, well, later on. But not right
now.
STEVE: But now you would see how and why it
works how it is. It gets right --
JOHN: Don't flip into the, the Bible cloud.
Because we're trying to figure --
STEVE: But that's what I'm trying to help
you -- you know, what I'm going to try to do now and
then. You know, I'm not going to give you some kind of
a discourse or Bible study.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: But I'm just going to try to relate a
-.-'1I, I 32
couple thoughts or themes. And I think you would
understand. I do. I mean I'm not going to get into
some lengthy thing where I'm trying to convert you or
anything. Not --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- that I wouldn't want to.
JOHN: You'd have your hands full on
something like that.
STEVE: I know I would. In fact I can --
hell would freeze over first I'm sure.
JOHN: No. No, no, no. I'm open to new
thoughts. That's why I mentioned the New Age business.
STEVE: Your New Age friend. Yeah, okay.
JOHN: Well, that -- I spent oh, many hours,
many days chatting about that.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: And that's why when we ran across this
book, the Teeds book on Koresh the, and his New Age
religion I -- that kind of --
STEVE: Oh, he actually was into that kind of
thinking?
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: New Age or that, those type of
thoughts --
JOHN: That was on the cover of the book
that, the first put out, you know --
¢..-11
Q C .3
STEVE: Oh, really. Oh, that's right. I
think you did mention that. -
JOHN: But then again, their interpretation
of New Age versus what --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- the current version of New Age, the
coin is in the air.
STEVE: That's true.
JOHN: And like everything else we're talking
about here, there are a lot of interpretations to it.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And --
STEVE: I'll tell you though, yesterday
morning I was quite surprised then when I read that
letter to DeGuerin, because as I was reading it my
eyeballs were about popping out.
JOHN: Now what is --
STEVE. But because, you know, he's talking
about coming out upon completion and --
JOHN: Talking about -- who was talking about
this?
STEVE: David.
JOHN: So this is David's letter?
STEVE: And he's saying there that even --
JOHN: I hope he isn't jazzing our bum.
STEVE: Well, it had nothing to even do with
v--01§ _ y i
C Q 34
you people. He didn't even -- it was meant to be given
d
…[truncated]