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QELEIIION COQESInformation which is properly classified pursuant toExecutive Order, the disclosure of which could reasonablybe expected to cause damage to the national security or theconduct of the Government's international relations.
Information, the disclosure of which would tend to reveal theidentity of an informant.
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confidentially.
Information protected under the Grand Jury Secrecy provision-Rule 6 e! of the federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.
Information, the disclosure of which would tend to identify asource of information, where confidentiality is expressed or
implied.
Administrative file numbers.
The Law Enforcement Privilege - The disclosure of thisinformation could cause harm to, impede, impair, or hinder aninvestigation and/or an investigative interest of the FBI.
Information, the disclosure of which would tend to compromisethe effectiveness of an investigative method or technique.
Information, the disclosure of which would divulge opinions,recommendations, and advice generated in the decision-makingprocess of the government.
Information, the disclosure of which is prohibited by federalstatute with citation to the appropriate statute!.
Information protected under the attorney-client privilege.
Information or material protected under the attorney workproduct privilege.
Information which is not relevant to the matters at issue inthe litigation.
Information originating with another government agency whichmust be referred to that agency for review. The use of thiscode does not waive any applicable codes which may be appliedby the originating agency.
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Information, the disclosure of which would be an unwarrantedinvasion of the personal privacy of an individual not partyto the litigation.
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #208
4/10/93 4/11/93
11:29 P.M. - 1:34 A.M.
2
Tape 208!
JOHN ONEIL: -- though I -- as far as
hiding, to you -- I -- there's a lot of things that --
you're a lot more deeper than you let on to believe.
There's a lot of things -- that you -- your motives --
but our only thing is, we're right up in front, what we
want to do is resolve this thing peacefully and get you
on out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I realize that. I
mean, everybody here, you know, there's no one here
that, that, stupid or not, that is lacking in
awareness. Seriously, I mean --
JOHN ONEIL: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, if you've dealt
with cults -- I have. I've dealt with people that have
been in the Hare Krishnas or the indiscernible! --
JOHN ONEIL: Well, the Hare Kri-- oh,
assaulted airports down in Laguna Beach --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- Jehovah's Witnesses,
Pentecostals --
JOHN ONEIL: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and Catholics. I
mean - I
JOHN ONEIL: Well, now, it really gets bad
when they get with that crowd.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, I'm talking about
3
all these different groups. You know. What is a cult
actually? You know, Christianity started out with one
guy that claimed to be God's son. I mean --
JOHN O'NEIL: We, we left out the Mormons.
Don't leave them out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, it -- well,
everybodys a cult. I mean, you know, when it really
comes down to it, but at the same time --
JOHN ONEIL: You know, loosely defined.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you can, you can talk to
these people here. You know, some of those that have
left, like, say --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER; -- Brad and Kevin and so
forth, I mean, theirs is more - is a different
experience. They've not really been involved too long.
They've come from a more hardcore lifestyle.
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah. I would think that the
gang from -- I know, your, your -- not, not your
illegal -- your foreigners there, what have you got,
the, the Australians, U.K. -- do you have any Haitians
in there? Have you got --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. Why, do you have some
that want to get in here?
JOHN O'NEIL: No, I don't think that -- I was
just curious. Anyhow, this particular crowd, would --
4
I was -- laughter!. Oh --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, wow. I know. Let's,
let's get on a comedy routine here.
JOHN O'NEIL: No, it -- we'll book you onto
Saturday Night Live --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, no --
JOHN O'NEIL: But the trick would be that
those particular folks would think that they would be
able to skip out and be able to get out of the country
a little bit faster than the other folks that are in
there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, Livingston Pagan, it
doesn't seem like he's getting out anything too quick,
does he?
JOHN O NEIL: Well, I don't know about
Livingston. I don't follow his adventures. But, you
know, the rest of the crowd that you got in there, I
would -- hmm -- I -- if I were, say, over there in --
where was this, England, or what are these other
countries here -- Australia and Israel --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
JOHN O'NEIL: -- I would think, hmm, it
wouldn't be a bad deal. I could probably get out of
this thing, leave it -- David being a U. S. citizen and
so forth and so on and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER; Are you telling me these
Q I
5
people from England, Australia, and Israel can get back
to their home if they leave here?
JOHN O'NEIL: In due time.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In due -- in due time?
JOHN O'NEIL: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: A very good qualifying
statement.
JOHN O'NEIL: I'm sure. That nothing's ever
simple.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What can you tell me about
myself? Am I going to get back to anything --
JOHN O'NEIL: Well, I don't know. You've
got --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- in due time?
JOHN ONEIL; That's what you have your
lawyer for, and it's a good --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hey, yeah, from what he's
told me and what he's opened up to me, what I've heard
from also DeGuerin, it surely doesn't look good. These
guys better be some pretty good attorneys.
JOHN ONEIL: This is what you're paying the
big bucks for.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: With what? I don't know
yet.
JOHN O'NEIL: Your charm, your personality,
and your book rights, I'm sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It sounds real good, not a
stark reality.
JOHN O'NEIL: They - now, it, it'll work
out. Don't worry. You'll see. It -- like the old
story is, that's what's all brought us together here
and it's ain't going to go away.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: A half a million dollars.
JOHN ONEIL: Are you worth it?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Can you imagine that? I
really have my doubts.
JOHN O'NEIL: Ah, you probably are. Now --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: The guy -- someones got
more faith in that than I do, because I sure don't see
it. But anyway, you know, irregardless, you know, I
mean, what's going to happen, I mean, I still know
that, you know, one's got to come out and face it all
and --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- take care of it, do it.
I, I don't - you know, what's got to be has got to be
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah, we talked about this
prob-- I think you probably mentioned it three or four
hundred times, about coming out or some-
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You got that, right?
JOHN O'NEIL: Yes. Absolutely. Oh, we're
sitting here adding them.
7
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it's been the same
questions, the same routine. I, I know. We -- I -- we
should actually cut a record and play it now and then.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah, crack your knuckles to
"Home on the Range," all this good stuff. I mean --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And why, why is it that
I've got to be one of those oddball human beings that
have a conviction that there's something that I've
heard and seen here that's true? I mean, I'm serious.
If it wasn't for that I'd be -- what -- I don't know
what to tell you, John. I mean, am I that weird and
strange that I got caught up in this thing and I
literally, honestly, truly believe it?
JOHN ONEIL: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I, I realize that --
JOHN ONEIL: I won't argue with you, but --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I realize you never could
yourself un- it, it's a thing that most people don't
have too much of, and that's time.
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum. Is this rhetorical
questions or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Nah -- come on, now. You
know, we --
JOHN ONEIL: I know the situa--
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I wish it were too and
you'd understand real clear - I mean, you, you've
8
already, you know, prejudged this guy and so forth, and
I got -- I'm the same way. I've done that with many
groups and different individuals through the years.
But I -- it so happened when I first met the guy --
JOHN ONEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- he did open up something
to me that I always wanted to know something about, and
at least he had an answer.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. I think you're very
fortunate in that area. Tell you what. Let me ask you
if you could do me a favor. I never -- you've done
some of these things --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We'll see. All right?
what are we --
JOHN ONEIL: Okay. It's nothing terribly
involved.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - going to -- what are we
-- asked -- possible here?
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. Why don't you run this
group by Teed -- Teeds group by --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll do that.
JOHN ONEIL: Pardon?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I'll do that for
sure.
JOHN O'NEIL: And the-- yeah, then, say, here
-- this -- we're kind of concerned. He can give us a
9
call back, I need him to talk to John-4, or he can give
us a call back tomorrow night, I know the same -- any
time after 4.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN O'NEIL: And let us know what's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, my eyes are
starting to itch here.
JOHN O'NEIL: Ah, God, lay off the scotch,
you know. That, that happens like that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Scotch? Man, I haven't
seen any of that in a long time. In years.
JOHN O'NEIL: We'll think about you tonight.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN O'NEIL: Okay. Is there anything else?
Are there any of these people that want to come - is
there a possibility --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, I'll, I'll
tell you what, I will really keep you posted on that.
I'm going to keep on talking to them. That's why I
didn't want to give names yet, because, you know --
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- let, let's see what
happens and --
JOHN O'NEIL: You know, remember, you, you've
got to keep con-- if you get some people that are very
unhappy in there --
10
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know that. I
mean, any time --
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- that happens, I
guarantee they'll be out where you are. I guarantee
it.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. It could turn into a
real mutinous mass and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! --
JOHN ONEIL: -- and people start getting
hurt. We don't want to get people hurt.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, no, of course not.
You know, and he's always said that too. If you show
an interest, a sign, anything at all, you know, and,
and, and go ahead, you know.
JOHN ONEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Definitely they're going to
be backed in the best way possible to tell them -- to
encourage them to do it, to --
JOHN O'NEIL: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- to make the move.
JOHN O'NEIL: All right. Work on those
people. Get the -- your disgruntled out. If they want
to come out tonight, John4 is going to be on.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN O'NEIL: Give him a shout. And give
ll
it --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's always possible.
JOHN O'NEIL: Talk to John. We're going to
be back on tomorrow at 4. Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Yeah.
JOHN O'NEIL: Okay. Take it easy.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Take it easy, John.
Bye.
1' i i i 'k
JOHN DENTON: Sort of gave it a chance and --
I don't listen to it full-time.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I know. I, I just
can't -- I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's
the lyrics mixed with --
JOHN DENTON: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the twangy -- I just --
I don't know.
JOHN DENTON: There's about three levels of
it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's true. That's true.
I mean, if Kenny Rogers or maybe Alabama or something
like that, I guess I can handle that sort of thing.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Pickup trucks and
drinking liquor and stuff like that is not real
strengthening.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Ha, ha, ha. That's true.
l2
JOHN DENTON: So, it has some pretty nice
sentiment.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, what - now, you're
going to be up through the night, are you?
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh boy.
JOHN DENTON: I'll be with you, I'll be with
you all night.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You're going to be with me
all night? what, are you --
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - coming over here to
visit or what?
JOHN DENTON: I thought, I thought I would if
it's all right. I'm, I'm just going to bring some eggs
and hide them.
STEVE SCHNEIDER; Oh, yeah. Okay. That
would be fine. I really wouldn't mind. It'll change
the base of things around here.
JOHN DENTON: Hey, do you guys do that for
the kids? A
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. I was raised with all
that sort of thing --
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- but, no, we don't do
that around here.
13
JOHN DENTON: Oh. I was raised that way too.
Yeah. But I haven't done it --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DENTON: -- in years either.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: The traditions of man. I
mean, it's fun, of course.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Yeah. My grandparents
used to do it for us.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, really?
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. But I'm not home enough
hardly anymore to, to get into that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, no, you're over here
in wacko Waco trying to get me out into the system, and
I'm agreeing with you. It's just that I, I fear the
unknown --
JOHN DENTON; Well, heck, that's normal and
natural.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It is, huh?
JOHN DENTON: If you didn't, you wouldn't be
a thinking person. You know?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I'd have a certain --
at times one wonders if they are or not.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Well, even the positive
things are somewhat unsettling.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah.
JOHN DENTON: You know, there's stress and
14
you-stress, and you-stress is a positive thing, and
it's -- like winning the lottery, you know. Cause a
great --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DENTON: -- deal of stress. So, it's
understandable.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Yeah, I'm -- I
don't know about you -- did you get some sleep today or
something or --
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, you did, huh?
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, man. I hate sleeping
in the daytime. I really do.
JOHN DENTON: Well, you never get, you never
get a full complement.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, you don't. For sure
you don't.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Our body clocks just
don't, don't work that way.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Well --
JOHN DENTON: They've been doing some
research on that, you know, that daylight makes some,
some of your cells more active and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DENTON: -- you know, the factories are
15
putting in that sun-type lighting now to keep people
more alert on the job that work night shifts.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's what I'm hearing.
JOHN DENTON: All that sort of thing. So, -
lie --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, John -- you told me,
where, where was home for you again?
JOHN DENTON: Upstate New York.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's right. Over by -~
you're not anywhere near Syracuse, areyou?
JOHN DENTON: I know that area.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You do?
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: One of these days I'll have
to let Greg -- he's, he's sleeping right now, but he
probably would want to talk to you just about that.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's -- it's where he spent
a lot of years and, you know, he still
memories of the area.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum. Yeah,
he likes shovelling snow.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah.
I - those are bad nightmares for me.
JOHN DENTON: Oh, yeah?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I lived inhas real fond
ask him how, how
Well, I mean, I,
Wisconsin for
16
awhile --
JOHN DENTON: Oh, geez, yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and it was terrible.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. You've still got the
accent.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, I, I know I do. I, I
hear that everywhere I go and -- but, then, when I get
to Wisconsin they ask me where I'm from also.
JOHN DENTON: Oh, yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I've heard that all my
life.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Picking up words and
nuances here and there and --
JOHN DENTON: You're, you're a cheesehead.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I am. I, I -- yeah,
especially swiss, with the holes in it, huh?
JOHN DENTON: Laughter.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Has --
JOHN DENTON: You know, that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Especially as it appears to
be to those that are on the outside here, I'm in --
I've got my own little Federal Pen here already.
JOHN DENTON: Are you a Packers fan?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I was for years.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
17
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Judy just came onto the
scene. Just, just a minute.
STEVE TO JUDY: What?
JOHN DENTON: Uh-huh.
STEVE TO JUDY: Yeah, I do.
JUDY TO STEVE: Indiscernible!.
STEVE TO JUDY: Yeah. Just a minute. Let me
give it to you here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just, just a second.
JOHN DENTON: Okay.
JUDY TO STEVE: Greg indiscernible! Greg's
indiscernible!.
STEVE TO JUDY: Here's both of them. Here's,
here's this - here's the latest one. Got the other
one too? Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, John?
JOHN DENTON: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'm back.
JOHN DENTON: Okay. When, when do you sleep?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Actually, I was going to
turn in about 12:00 tonight and then --
JOHN DENTON: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- as I was going down the
hall, I heard David up, and so I peeked in the corner
and there he's got that country music on. And I says
what in the heck are you doing?
18
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And he says well, what do
you think of this music? I says, well, don't ask my
honest opinion because -- I says you, you're not
telling me you really like that stuff. And he was
saying yeah. He says listen to it, it's got a good
rhythm to it.
JOHN DENTON: Some of it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's not happy with his own
guys at -- he's, he's a perfectionist when it comes to
his music. And he really is. I mean, I don't know
what you th-- he plays quite a few styles, ballads to
rock-and-roll to classical rock-and-roll. And he
actually is extremely creative. He's awesome timing.
As a lead guitarist, he's, he's right at the top. He
really is.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Ask him what he thinks
of Chet Atkins.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, he -- I think he does
like him. I mean, there's no question the guy has put
on -- pardon?
JOHN DENTON: Because he's a, he's a
perfectionist, you know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DENTON: Some people don't think he's
that great a guitarist, but he's a purist, you know.
19
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
JOHN DENTON: He won't release anything
unless it's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
JOHN DENTON: -- absolutely perfect. You
know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, David himself, I
don't know -- see, now, I -- being because of my
background, comparative religion, I -- when I became
part of this group I more or less started getting into
the management of music, and right away you're expected
in the business to know everybody. I mean, and here I
am, I don't know anyone.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, I'm out talking -- I'm
in Hollywood talking to a guy by the name of Michael
Anthony. And a lot of people, they know that name. I
mean, I didn't know him from Adam. And I walked away
and a friend said to me do you know who you were
talking to? I says, yeah, a real nice guy. His name
is Mike. He says I don't believe you, Steve. That's
the guy -- the bass player with Van Halen. And I says
well, who is he?
JOHN DENTON: Laughter.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, by then the guy's
so frustrated with me, you know --
20
JOHN DENTON: No, I'm with you on that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, I mean --
JOHN DENTON: It doesn't mean anything to me.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I did s-- I mean, I met
Billie Sheen, who is the base player used to be with
David Lee Roth and with a group called Mr. Big. Now, I
mean, at least I know who they are, but, I mean, it
still doesn't mean anything to me.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, I mean -- and I met
John Entwhistle of the who and, you know, loads of
people like that.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, I don't know, it's --
that, that whole scene, it's, it's not -- the only
reason I ever got involved is I just saw an aspect to
the whole religious thing. The Bible talks about a
word called Shigionith, and it means music to turbulent
lyrics in the final days of -- the highest form of
communication is a song, it's music. And we originally
-- how we were going to effect or reach people was by
music.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And, then, of -- but this,
of course, puts a crimp in our style. It'll be --
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
21
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- interesting to see what
God's got planned now. I mean, to tell you the truth,
I don't think -- well, one can sing like a canary where
we're going, I understand.
JOHN DENTON: Laughter.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: At least if it's not long,
temporarily.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I mean, you know, I
was telling John-S and I was talking with Dek today and
-- I mean, I, I, I keep on telling him -- and, I mean,
it's, it's a broken record, of course, but, I mean, I
appreciate what you guy- I mean, you've got a job to
do and -- I mean, I, I really, in a lot of -- sometimes
I wish that - you know, if -- well, if religion wasn't
involved in this thing, though, I wouldn't have been
here in the first place. I mean, obviously, I would
have been over in Hawaii still living my life.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, I mean, the reason I
came here and put up with wacko Waco is because of
having convictions, asking a lot of hardcore questions
that a lot of theologians, professors through the years
are not able to answer, minister, friends, colleagues,
never able to answer, but -- and not even - with as,
as much as a consistent opinion or a theory.
JOHN DENTON: I, I --22
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's why I'm here though.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Billy
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DENTON: -- the other
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
JOHN DENTON: Billy Graham
just blind faith has something to do
know, that there are gaps -- that he
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
See --
JOHN DENTON: --
nobody can ful-- can --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN DENTON: - fill, you
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DENTON: --
blind faith is part of the
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
John, I honestly tested this
first before I even came and
David. But in the first six
distance. My phone would --
200 up to 3, 4, $500 a month.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.Graham --
day said --
the other day
with it. You
Well, for me it doesn'
See, what --
know --
whole package.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And in the process ofsaid
t.
says there are gaps that
intellectually, and that
You know, I tested th--
so much for six months,
spent anymore time with
months I'd call him long-
phone bill would be like
23
talking to him, I, I think I'd have him - I'd try to
nail him down and say what are you going to do with
this, what are you going to do with that, what about
this, what about that? And I was used to nailing
ministers of all denominations to the wall. I mean,
seriously. I'm not afraid to stand with anybody in
this world. But I finally met my match. The guy
pulled the carpet out from under me. Not only did he
answer my questions, but he went deeper than I even had
actually brought the questions up. And I started
looking at him ~ well, where did you go to school at?
He says well, I dropped out when I was in ninth grade.
You what? I says, well, where did you get the
information? And then I brought in a, a guy, a friend
of mine, his name was Walter Sands, a doctor, a psy-- a
psychoanalyst, a psychologist. And he was intrigued.
He says I've never seen anything like it, the answers
the guy has, how consistent. And I started bringing a
lot of friends. And, so, over time, when I start-- I
decided to start travelling with him and I, I just
observed. I watched and -- you know, I mean, I'm
always skeptical of any and everybody, especially when
they come on to be something and ~- but after time, I
mean, I wasn't able to controvert what he had. So,
little by little I made a commitment, and it's, it's a
day-by-day thing though. There's never a day, in
24
honesty, with any of these people included -~ there
might be some more adamant than others. But like
myself, every day's a new day. You've got to look at
the issues. You've got to look at it from every
perspective. You've got - you know, you're way out.
Well, there's Hawaii on one hand and there's this place
and - the bottom line for me, is it true or not? Is
it true? I mean, for me, I am an idealist. I look for
absolute truth. But where is there absolute truth?
One thing that's absolute, as far as I can see, and
that's death. And then it comes to everybody.
JOHN DENTON: Well, that's a reality, you
know, and when you say --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It is.
JOHN DENTON: -- when you say every day's a
new day, that -- you have to deal with the realities of
every new day.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's true. That's
why I have never shut off -- you know, I mean, I'll sit
and talk and think and look again, look back at what
I've seen, how I got here. And, you know, a lot of
these guys, they're -- you know, they're talking about
sitting down with a pizza and so forth. Well, you
know, I mean, I see that as humor. I see that as a
good gesture. And, I mean, you know, they're going to
deal at every level, of course, and I don't, I don't
I
25
blame them. I mean, it's great. But, then, it's not
like one does not think about it. You know, you think
about all aspects. But life is a deep thing to me.
It's - it really
it's complexitiesis a deep thing and -- it's, it's got
and so forth, but there's a lot of
answers to those things that I -- have always seen as
complexities.
you have
evaluate
them and
It's howJOHN DENTON: And, and some things I think
to answer for yourself, you know. You, you
things as a, as a human being and you look at
you come up with a, with a judgment, you know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Truly.
JOHN DENTON: -- you conduct your life.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's true.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, yeah, I was telling
John earlier, the other - John-S, that I did talk with
a few guys tonight, but I didn't want to give their
names yet. I'm still -- I was talking with them. A
couple of them turned it, but they said they were going
to continue talking to me tomorrow.
JOHN DENTON: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: SO, I dOnt know - I know
it, it came up about their possibly going out even
tomorrow.
26
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER; So, I don't know yet. I
didn't even really want to bring it up at first
because, you know, I -- it's, it's better to know for
sure and then I'd let you know.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But at least they're, at
least they're, they're talking about it. And, so far,
right now it's, it's three, three guys. So, I said
well, a couple of them -
JOHN DENTON: How about, how about the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Huh?
JOHN DENTON: -- how about the, the kids and
the women?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So far, you know, there
hasn't been -- well, you know, like -- it's almost hard
to know where to begin with some people because most of
them are pretty strong. Like they looked at that
letter that was done and they all saw that as, saw that
as a real high thing. You know, that was a pretty big
deal, because it -- David -- I mean, he does -- he's
not a writer and he's not into writing. And the only
things that he's ever written, and you can tell by his
handwriting is poor. His structuring of sentences and
all that is not good, but, I mean, he is a communicator
verbally. But, at the same time, when you look at him
27
with the way he does paperwise, I mean, it's, it's just
never been there. The last time I saw him do anything
was like about the time I met him, and that's -- you're
talking six, seven years ago already.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't looked
at a lot of that stuff. I will when I get a chance.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. So, basi-- you know,
the first letter was his totally. The second letter,
he showed it to me and I put in the punctuation in some
of the places, and I, I didn't even want to cr-- I just
left it as it was, the words and everything. I mean,
there were some things that, you know, I saw as, you
know, grammatically -- would have -- it, it's a little
awkward maybe, but --
JOHN DENTON: So, he's a, he's an auditory
person, not a --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He is. That's, that's for
sure. He is.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, I mean, it's strange
that he's even written those down. when I walked in
yesterday when he did the first letter, he was sitting
there writing, and I, I said, excuse me, what are you
writing? And he said, well, I was shown something.
And I says, well, was it -- were you directed to write
this verbatim, word for word? He says, no, I -- he
28
says, as usual, I was given an overall picture and, you
know, the thoughts are there. He says, I've written it
down. And then he showed it to me and he says, well,
do you want to write it out for me? I says, well, no,
how about Judy? And he says, yeah, fine.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. I guess --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, she wrote it out for
him and that's when we passed it off. But --
JOHN DENTON: He can evidently read pretty
well though, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah. Yeah. No --
yeah, no problems there at all. No problems --
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- reading and
comprehending.
JOHN DENTON: So, so indiscernible! heard of
as far as his writing, but his reading skills are
excellent?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. The reading's - but
he -- the truth is -- you know, there are people here,
like Perry Jones who was killed in that shootout --
Perry knew him since '81. David first came here in '81
and he, he had dyslexia. He was a stutterer. I mean,
it was bad. I, I've never -- they've got tapes here
and I've always wanted to take the time to hear some of
the old tapes of when he first arrived and he started
29
trying to share some of his ideas and thoughts, like
back in about '82 to '84. But all that -- seriously,
you can talk to -- if you ever have the opportunity,
Catherine Madison, from what I understand, is somewhat
-- incarcerated somewhere over there. But talk to her
about her perceptions, what she remembers about David
when he first arrived in '81, right on until like '85
when he went to Israel. All of the sudden -- this is
no joke. I mean, Perry has told me in detail. But he
came back and it was like he was a totally different
person. He was able to articulate, very clear, very
deep. He went into subject matter they had never heard
anything about, but it was directly from the book. So,
something happened, but what?
JOHN DENTON: S-- we, we, we should organize
a tour for dyslexics to Israel.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you've got a point
there. i
JOHN DENTON: Or something.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, if that's what it
did, I tell you what, you, you might have an idea
there. Let's, let's see how we can work this thing
out. Maybe that's how I can pay for this attorney that
wants to take my case for about half a million.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah, I heard that there's a
pretty good, pretty good fee on that.
'
30
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hey, I mean, here's a guy
making maybe 50,000 off of anybody else, and all of a
-- he comes to me -- I don't care if you know or not.
You know, if the guy wants to drop me, I -- it doesn't
really matter. I mean, I like the guy. He's okay.
But, you know, first it's for one sum. He comes back a
couple days later, and, shoot, if it didn't double
instead of go down. It more than doubled, almost
tripled.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, what happened in
two days?
JOHN DENTON: Well, I understand that, you
know, there's some book rights and some movie rights
and stuff like that and, you know, that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think it interested him
all the more, huh?
JOHN DENTON: I think -- you know, I can't
speak for him, but, I mean, that, that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah, everybody --
JOHN DENTON: -- should take --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- wants to jump on the
bandwagon.
JOHN DENTON: Well, that should take some of
the burden off of everybody as far as, you know, having
something --
31
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but the bad thing --
JOHN DENTON: -- to pay them with.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I want to tell you
the truth, though, about that. David, in honesty, is
not inter-- he --
JOHN DENTON= Well, I know he's not.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- he told him. He's not
interested in the --
JOHN DENTON: Yeah, he --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- money. He doesn't like
any -- I mean, he doesn't ~-
JOHN DENTON: He's doesn't have --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- want any reproach or
dis-- I mean, it's going to be a joke to you, of
course, but --
JOHN DENTON: Well, no, no. I'm no- I know
that you say --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: x mean, he wants no
reproach upon the message of the seven --
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - seals of what he
believes and teaches.
JOHN DENTON= But still, you know, in the
market place, you know, you're going to need cash, and
that, that's what that's about. We'll just leave it
where it is.
32
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. No, I understand.
And he, he indiscernible! --
JOHN DENTON: I know that he's not interested
in, in fortune and fame, but, you know, the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DENTON: -- the, the money is a reality
of, of paying attorneys, you know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But all of a sudden, once
they see the possibilities of what can be made. I
mean, their share is anywhere like -- have you ever
heard of two-thirds to three-quarters?
JOHN DENTON: I just did.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, I wouldn't even
really be talking about that, but they left the
information out themselves, because we heard it on a
talk show about a --
JOHN DENTON: Oh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- two-and-a-half million
dollar book. Well, that about blew us away. It's news
to us.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum. Yeah, you're fairly
limited in there.
33
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, of course. But
anyway, you know, I mean, I, I really -- you know, I'm
just interested in just getting into the system, going
through it, wherever the chips may fall, but I -- still
I'm very strongly into the principles of the
Constitution, whatever happens. I mean, this country
is going the, the direction it goes and --
JOHN DENTON: Yeah, you're right, you know.
And, and, you know, that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, I mean --
JOHN DENTON: -- that's reality, and the, and
the Constitution is -- you're going to see it work.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I want to. I mean,
I'm a person that I believe in the, the Bill of Rights,
the first ten stronger than -- I mean, I really am
heavy into your freedoms, your rights, your ability to
choose to believe, not to believe. I've had -- all my
life I've had atheistic friends. I mean, when I was a
young man in the '60s, I had friends that were into
Hinduism, way back then.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll never forget asking a
friend well, what religion are you? He says to me I'm
a free thinker. I says you're what? You know. And, I
mean, the guy -- I real-- I liked that. It intrigued
me. You know, it agitated the thinking. And right off
34
I - here the guy is 12, 13 years old and he's talking
about Buddhism and Hinduism?
JOHN DENTON: Hmm.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, what a mind.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then, here, the guy and
I -- myself, we both, we did a job for my dad. We were
paid $10. I mean, back then that was a lot of money.
He goes out and buys a course in Russian, the Russian
language. I mean, what kid 12 years old is going to --
I mean, what kind of a guy was this? But I really was
happy for the opportunity to meet and associate with a
guy like that because it, it really was intriguing. He
saw himself as an atheist. But, then, at the same time
he was interested in Zen Buddhism. And, I mean, 12
years old in the si-- mid '60s? '63-4?
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Probably had a, a, a
knack for languages. I've got a -- I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, he did to some
degree. I --
JOHN DENTON: Well, I've got a friend whose
daughter is a -- got that kind of ability. And it's,
you know, it's, it's, it's good memory, for one thing.
And she majored -- I think she got a doctorate in
languages. The two of them are very dispersed. You --
I think one is Russian and the other is Swahili or
35
something.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wow.
JOHN DENTON: It was -- you know, one doesn't
build on the other, but she's got the ability to handle
both of them. And he says she's not intelligent, she
just has that synapse --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
JOHN DENTON: -- to retain those sort of
things.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I did meet a man - years
ago I went to school in England. And this guy, he
could speak 16 languages. No, I think it was 21, but
he could write 16. That's what it was. He --
JOHN DENTON: I've got - I've got a
smattering of English myself. That's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean - yeah. Here I've
-- you know, like Pablo here that's from Israel, he
himself speaks four or five languages.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And here I -- here he's
matching me in English.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What is this? This is no
good.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. A lot of that, I think,
you know, it's a blessing and a curse. If you're from
36
a country where you've got close borders, you, you, you
have --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Truly.
JOHN DENTON: -- to be bilingual, or
sometimes trilingual.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We call him a taco Jew
because he's actually originally from Argentina, but
when he was young he moved to Jerusalem. He is Jewish.
JOHN DENTON; Oh. I was wondering about that
Spanish first name.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, exactly. Pablo. I
mean --
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- Pablo, what in the
heck --
PABLO IN BACKGROUND!: Laughter.!
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's, he's right over here
laughing right now.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, everybody runs him
through with that.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Spanish Jew.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. When I heard that I said
well, this -- we've got the wrong name for this guy.
37
This guy can't be, can't be Pablo Cohen. You know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it is.
JOHN DENTON: He is.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: His mother spent some time
there and I guess she named all her - she had three
sons and they were all named with Spanish names.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum. Hmm.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, so, you go right on
through till the morning then, huh?
JOHN DENTON: Yes. Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wowie. So, when do you --
you don't have a break over this weekend at all?
JOHN DENTON: Oh, no. Uhuh. No. No.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wow.
JOHN DENTON: This is -- it's just the way it
is.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, what -- John, what
happens normally? I mean, say this is ended. For you,
what are you -- are you back in the State of New York
working basically or are you sent around America? Is
that a normal thing or what?
JOHN DENTON: Well, we just go back to our
division of assignment.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, then, most of the time
you're in your division then, huh?
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Um-hum. Yeah.
38
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is it - how frequent does
this happen where you end up -- are you called in as a
negotiator like this? I mean, is it something that --
where you're called far away like this or --
JOHN DENTON: On something like this, yeah,
we probably get called. And then, you know, every now
and then you'll have something locally, a guy in a bank
or something, you know, holding someone or, or maybe a
barricaded subject or something like this.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No kidding? I mean, those
are the things that, you know, you don't --
JOHN DENTON: You go around helping people is
what it amounts to.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Right.
JOHN DENTON: Or trying to help people.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DENTON: You know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER; Well, definitely, you know,
it's a good work for sure. I mean, no question about
it. I'd like to help you help me. And, you know,
we're working on it, of course.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Well, that's what we're
here for. All of us --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We're - I'm Still --
JOHN DENTON: -- that are involved in this.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- hoping that any time
39
here -- I mean, you know, there are -- for him there is
not a set thing, because he, like I was telling the
other guys today, he does-- he brings it up to me
frequently about the time and what's God doing, you
know. I know there's virtues of faith and patience.
And he really -- it's like with a little bit of time
here - it's like the issues -- I mean, we believe
heavily, of course, that if you believe in this
so-called Christ of 2,000 years ago, in the final days
is a revelation. The last book is called a Revelation
of that person, whoever -- I mean, if the person ever
existed. And if you know the person, well, then show
me the seven seals. It's that simple. That's the
final test. So, I mean, everything that we do revolves
around that, and that's why I've always been serious.
If there's a scholar that can even give me an opinion
on what he thinks about those seals, I'm out of here.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I've actually -- in the
beginning, I, I looked for excuses, ways to get out of
here and -- but there was a overwhelming conviction
that there's something to it, there's something there.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But that's why -- you know,
from the beginning, like even with the attorneys, we
never -~ honestly, we never told these two guys that --
anything about
know, where it
possibility to
JOHN40
time. We said that right along, you
- it's, it's always open and a
leave at any time, day and night.
DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, you know, and, and it's
still that. It's, it's not changed. And, you know,
every now and then I, I'm always asking David, well,
you know, what
says, well, as
to what we see
in relation to
throughout theabout talking to these guys? And he
long as they want to allow me to open up
and understand from the book, even in,
the time element. Because all
prophecies even Christ himself said you,
you know not the day of your visitation, implying that
the Jews, back
judgments thatin his day, they should have known the
were prophesied upon them, that they'd
eat their own children, would be laid even with the
ground, which historically happened, John.
JOHNDENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Titus, the Roman general,
he finally, in
Jerusalem, and
started eating
JOHNabout 68 A.D., returned back to
they became so hungry they finally
their own children.
DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, they fulfilled Christ's
very words in Luke, Chapter 19. So, I mean, really
what salvation, according to that book, has always
41been, on one side man is pronounced to be corrupt.
JOHN DENTON: Geez, a rugby team did that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You got that right. You
got that right.
JOHN DENTON: Hey --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah?
JOHN DENTON: -- check out Romans 12.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Romans 12. I --
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- don't have it before me.
JOHN DENTON: Thirteen.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I should know it right off.
It's -- okay. I, I've got it pictured in my mind.
JOHN DENTON: In submission to the
authorities, you know. Let me get, let me get in a
commercial there, okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Please do.
JOHN DENTON: That's it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Station identification
there.
JOHN DENTON: Read that section on submission
to the authorities.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DENTON: You know, it sounds like it was
written by someone in the FBI to me.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you're, you're not
42
even close, because if you look at Romans 12 as it
compares to another writing of Paul's, which is First
Corinthians, Chapter 12, you'll find out that the very
organization, the authorities spoken of there and the
dignities spoken of, are -- is the church body, which
is to be a governed body.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Numbers are important in
the Bible and, and the number 12 is a number that
applies to government. I mean, not only were there 12
patriarchs, the 12 sons of Jacob, there's also, as you,
as you realize, 12 apostles, and there's 12 months out
of the year. I mean, this isn't happe-Q happenstance
at all.
JOHN DENTON: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, when you actually start
breaking it down, God himself has a division of angels
in heaven with the number 12. There's seraphims.
There's cherubims, male angels, female angels. Very
high order of beings. But, you know, we find -- look
at movies like Cocoon and so forth and, believe it or
not, those are just perversions, counterfeits of
realities that I really truly believe exist in this
universe.
JOHN DENTON: I, I missed that movie, but I,
I knew a doctor who knew that doctor that wrote that.
43
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No kidding?
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Interesting. I really
found it very ~- you know, there was a lot of things in
there that -- well, if you read the Bible, Joel 2,
Isaiah 13, and a lot of these chapters, you'll find
that that's basically the same thing that the Bible is
saying.
JOHN DENTON: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We're beings of light.
There's no reascn why anybody should die, perish. But
those that see light, that, that have light within,
they can't die. They can't die. And the physics of it
can be explained and shown by the Bible, by an old
archaic book everybody carries under their arm. It's
- all it is is cigarette paper with some black India
ink and a old cow's dead hide wrapped around it. You
know. For me, there's nothing holy about the book
unless there's some real information there.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, I mean, I, I've
always tried to be real with people, even the people
I've gone out and talked to about the Bible. You know,
I get all sorts of people, ministers of all
denominations will come and hit on you and try to make
you look -- show you up. And then when you start
44
hitting them with questions they can't answer, and you
say pardon me, can I serve you and show you some
things, well, of course, you know, that's where the
pride comes in. And the majority of time you can't
deal with those who have doctor degrees, because, you
know, it takes a lot of hard work to gain those
degrees. And there's a lot of pride about what you've
gained and done and I, I found it very hard a lot of
times to communicate with those kind of people. But
I've always told them, hey, if you've got something you
can share and show me, I'm open, I'm listening.
JOHN DENTON: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But these people that have
come here, you know, they're not, they're not off the
wall. I mean, you will be able to -- ultimately, you
will be able to talk with them if you want or whatever,
and you're going to find they've come from all walks of
life, different backgrounds.
JOHN DENTON: Well, I, I, I know that,
Steven, and I know that, you know, a lot of you have
been successful in, you know, what I say is the real
world. But, you know, you'al1 have been in there for I
don't know how many years getting, you know, one side.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, not really years,
because if you notice we come and go. Like even like
I'm in California a lot.
when he's
travelled
They come45
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And David's been Out --
been out here I've been out there. I have
with him. And the same with the others.
and go. Those from England, they usually
come here for a week or two and then they go back.
Some have stayed for six months, some up to a year.
And with that, you know, they -- and they choose ~-
they come and go as they please. And even those around
the States, the same has been true. Most of those that
are in America, a lot of them have come here and chosen
to be here because they wanted to hear and see the
whole thing. I mean, you've got to - if you ask
Gonzalez, if you ever get to talk with him, you know,
the ATP undercover agent that was here, I mean, he
actually sat down himself the last night before the
incident, on a Saturday night. He was here for six
hours.
JOHN DENTON: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, that's a lot of
time to sit. I mean, you know, no, no class in school
do you sit there for usually longer than 50 minutes.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And because he showed an
interest, David just kept on going and kept on going.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
46
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, he opened up a lot to
him and, you know, he allowed for any and all kinds of
questions. And he let him -- he hinted right on
through that he always knew who he was.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He tried to let him know as
best he could and, I mean, I -- we all knew. I mean,
seriously. I mean, I didn't know what agency for sure,
but he was just too much of a - you know, the way he
carried himself and his demeanor. He was too old to be
a __
JOHN DENTON: He could have, he could have
been from the gas company.
Laughter.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Anyway, you know,
it, it was obvious. It was.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER; But I never dreamed --
David just said -- he did say pretty strong to --
Gonzalez, I'm -- we still like the guy a lot too. We,
we don't hold anything against him. And from what
we're hearing now, and the ATP is saying contrary, but
we, we're hearing the news also that, from the Houston
' that he said that it had been compromised,Chronicle,
not to go ahead and go, go with it, and that's true. I
mean, I really wished they would have listened to him.
I'm hoping he did say
JOHN DENTONthat even.
: Um-hum.47
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I really am. I'm hoping he
said that.
JOHN DENTON: Well, what does that mean, "it
was compromised"?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I - that's what I
heard. I, I'm thinking that meaning that we found out
we knew about it to some degree or he perceived that it
was not the thing to do at that time. I'll tell you
what, I sat here that
actually star-- I slept in that morning.
8:00 and someone knocked at my door, and
Steve, Robert's here.
got up and I sat down
door, front door. I sat down, David and
myself. And, and David was sharing the B
and David ended up saying some kind of --Sunday morning with David.
It was
they sa
And I says, oh, really?
in the foyer as you entere
ible wi
I, I thim andI, I
about
id
So, I
d the
th him
hought
it was real strange. Out of the clear blue, David
started sharing a few
what you've got to do
through, and what you
and he, he made a lot
I thought, well, what
JOHN DENTON
to?different things with him
, make sure you've thought
've got to do, make -- you
of statements like that.
in the heck was that --
: Who was he, who was he tlike
it
know,
And I,
alking
people
Robert
antsy,
and --
he had
looked48
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He was talking to Robert.
JOHN DENTON: Oh, I thought he was talking to
inside.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no. He was at --
was sitting right there and Robert was kind of
kind of moving around a lot and looking around
but, finally, I mean, you know, he finally said
to go and have breakfast. And, and when I
out the door, and when he went over to across
the street, he didn't stay there but a couple minutes.
And the whole thing was strange. I mean, then Perry
happened to look out the window and he told me he saw
one of
like that. And
with his truck,
what would thatthe guys down at the water tanks or something
as soon as that, his alarm went off
then that vehicle moved. So, what,
tell you? You know what I mean?
JOHN DENTON: Nothing. I don't really follow
what you said.
what I
-- in bits and pieces. What -- well,
-- well, okay. Let me -- I know I, ISTEVE SCHNEIDER: You didn't really follow
said?
JOHN DENTON: Yeah, I mean, you said --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, no, it is kind of bit
Gonzalez when he
was fragmented.
It's late for me. But, anyway, when he went out the
door --
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JOHN DENTON: Late for both of us.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. We're talking about
our --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You had -- you've slept
some today I was told.
JOHN DENTON; We're, we're talking about our
b-- oh, yeah, a little bit. But, you know, you never
sleep during the day sufficiently.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, that's true.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, but an alarm went
and --
JOHN DENTON: Bums out your --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- it beeped like -- it was
kind of a strange thing. And Perry just happened to
look out the one window and saw a vehicle down at the
other end. And when that happened, it started moving,
when Robert's vehicle -- and he had a different vehicle
that day for the first time. So, I mean -- and there
was a lot of strange things that, you know, we, we
wondered. But we didn't really care, because we like
people and -- and, and the thing that disappointed us
really, more than anything, if they would have ever
knocked at the door, a sheriff or whoever --
JOHN DENTON: Indiscernible! --
SO
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And, and they could have
taken him jogging. He was out running all the time.
We went into town. I mean, that's why right from the
beginning this was not settled so quickly, because we
wondered what the motives are, what is going on. I
honestly was here, John, when, when the walls were
riddled where I was at. And I would have not had a
chance. I had to get down -- I, I should have been
taken out. There's no -- in fact, I'm shocked I
wasn't. And the only thing I was trying to do is talk
on the phone. And, you know, I know you guys don't
want to -- you know, we've gone through this over and
over again, but --
JOHN DENTON: Yeah, itS, it's
counterproductive, really, about --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know. I know.
JOHN DENTON: -- resolution.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I really don't -- I
mean, you know, what David --
JOHN DENTON: But, I mean --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- it has to come out in
the court and whether they --
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- believe me or not,
that's -- and I -- I'll tell them again I -- what I saw
and didn't see, and I didn't see much. I really -- I
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was one of the people that was in a, a location where I
didn't -~ and, plus, I wanted to hang onto the phone
and try to get this, this stupid thing stopped.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And the only thing I got to
hear was Perry's cry, you know, moaning and crying and
all that. I mean, he was hit pretty bad, first in the
leg, then in the stomach. And, man, I mean, the, the
whole thing was bad. I, I'd never been around death
like that before.
JOHN DENTON: Umhum. Well, a lo: of people
haven't. You know? It's not an everyday occurrence.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, with children
being here, women, and I mean, oh, man, what a, what
a nightmare.
JOHN DENTON: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, anyway, you know, I
mean, I know you guys want to get it resolved. We do
too and --
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. I think it's, it's time,
you know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I know it's time. I
believed it was from day one, you know, and, you know,
even from that Tuesday, March 2nd. But the only thing
that, you know, is throwing a wrench into it from your
perspective -- but, you know, from what we've been
52
following for the last number of years is, is the book
and, and the God that opens it up, where, where we have
not been able to controvert the message that's laid out
there, the testimony of dead men called prophets.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, you know, I mean,
we'll -- I'll honestly --
JOHN DENTON: If they're --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- try to keep on being
open with you and frank and not try to play the role
I've played --
JOHN DENTON: Steve, there are, there are no
atheists in the foxholes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I've heard that all
my life too.
JOHN DENTON: I've seen it for real.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You have, huh?
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, I've heard
that all my life. But in -- you know, myself, I have
not experienced or really been with people that have
gone through that before. I've had a lot of close
calls through life, but more through accidents than
anything else. And I guess it never really woke me up
to the realities of life and death so much. I guess I
always thought live today and who cares about tomorrow.
53
You never know if it'll come or not. But then my
attitude changed about that.
JOHN DENTON: No, live today for tomorrow.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What's - that's good.
But, you know, I mean, I, I do value life. I'm not a
person that likes the idea or the prospect of ever
dying. I'd truly like to go from this life right on
into being, as the Bible says, translated into another
existence. And I see the possibilities of that. So, I
mean, I have my hopes. But you never know.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You never know. The only
thing that's sure, like you and I know, is, is death
itself.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But --
JOHN DENTON: That and taxes, they say. You
know?
STEVE SCHNEIDER; Yeah. Death and taxes.
They do say.
JOHN DENTON: Laughter.! You know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, for sure.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER; But -- so, when do you get
to get back to New York?
JOHN DENTON: Well, I have to, you know,
54
check the schedule. It's kind of flexible, I think.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Uhhuh.
JOHN DENTON: You know, it doesn't mean I'm
flexible. It means the schedule --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Because you've, you've
met several of us.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, I heard in the news,
they mentioned something about 17 new agents coming
down from New England or the New England/Boston area?
JOHN DENTON: Oh, really? That's, that's in
the paper?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
JOHN DENTON: Is that -- that was in the
paper?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that -- I -- that --
I think it was -- I can't remember. It could have been
on a -- I don't remember if it was the paper or if it
was the radio. And I think it was about two weeks ago.
JOHN DENTON: I, I dOnt --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Apparently it didn't happen
then, huh?
JOHN DENTON: I have no idea. You know? I
can find out, but I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER; I mean -- no -- in other
words, it's just something to talk about, you know.
It's, it's
we're goin
going to n
talk.
My wife an
England.
know. I'd55
not a, you know, it's not a big deal.
JOHN DENTON; Geez, if they're from Boston,
g to need a translator.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
JOHN DENTON: If they're from Boston, we're
eed a translator, you know?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, that's about it. Yeah
JOHN DENTON: The way those Boston people
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I actually like that area.
d I, we --
JOHN DENTON: I've never been to Boston.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You're kidding.
JOHN DENTON: NO.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I really like New
JOHN DENTON: I've got to get there, you
just like seeing --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I love -- it reminds --
love the rolling hills of Vermont, the trees and --
that's --JOHN DENTON: 'Oh, yeah. Oh, I know,
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, man.
JOHN DENTON: -- that's beautiful country.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It is.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.I 92
56
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In fact, my wife and I,
before we left Hawaii, we actually ~ we were going to
build a home on 20 acres on the Island of Kauai, which
is absolutely beautiful, as far as this world goes.
And we were thinking about in the summertime having
either a place in Idaho right on the western side of
the Tetons --
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- or possibly in Vermont.
So --
JOHN DENTON: Up toward Yellowstone.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
JOHN DENTON: Yeah, going up to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, just-north --
JOHN DENTON: -- Yellowstone.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- of Yellowstone.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Exactly. Oh, the
area is -- it, it's awesome. It is.
JOHN DENTON: Well, I'll tell you, the
wintertime will bury you in snow.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's why you've got
to have a place like Hawaii in the wintertime.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: There's no other way to go.
JOHN DENTON: Unless you're a snow freak, you
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know, like --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Have you ever --
JOHN DENTON: -- snowmobiling and skiing --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- have you ever been --
pardon?
JOHN DENTON; -- and stuff.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, that's true.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I've only skied probably
our times in my life, and one of the times was on
Mauna Kea in Hawaii.
JOHN DENTON; Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It was not the place to
learn.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Especially when it - I
ell you what, it was like 50 mile an hour winds, or,
or stronger, as I recall. And the sun was out and
melting the snow, turning it to glazed ice on top.
JOHN DENTON; Oh, yeah. You've got no
control on a surface like that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. And then, you know,
14,000 feet up there's no oxygen.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum. No.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, it's --
JOHN DENTON: No--
58
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It was, it was --
JOHN DENTON: Not a good way to start.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- absolute --
JOHN DENTON: No.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And those ski lifts, that
was not any fun.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But that -- I think that
was my fourth time skiing.
JOHN DENTON: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Have you ever been to
Hawaii?
JOHN DENTON: Yeah. I passed through there
on my way to Vietnam.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, great.
JOHN DENTON: That's - it was --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: When did they get you for
Vietnam? What years were you in there?
JOHN DENTON: Let's see, '66, '67.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You're a couple years older
than I am then.
JOHN DENTON; Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm a couple
years older than a lot of people.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Half the people in the
world, huh?
JOHN DENTON: I think that's about right.
59
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Ha. Vietnam. Oh, I came
close to going myself. I came very close. I was glad
that finally they came up with the lottery and I -- I
think my number was 256 or something like that. And,
finally, it -- it had a turnaround. I was happy for
that.
JOHN DENTON: Uh-huh. Well, I - you know,
this is -- it's a good and a bad thing. It's - this
is really a trite thing to say, but I don't know how
else to say it. It's a right of passage --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DENTON: -- for a young man.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah.
JOHN DENTON: To go through something --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think --
JOHN DENTON: -- like that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I think there's
something to that.
JOHN DENTON: It, it, it makes you appreciate
other things a great deal more than if you hadn't gone
through it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DENTON: And I don't mean to say that
it's necessary, but it's -- you can look at the
positive side of it. You know?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. So, John, are you
60
going to be around tomorrow night at this time again?
JOHN DENTON: Oh, yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You are?
JOHN DENTON: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I definitely am
going to be. I'll be in touch with you through the day
and I'll, I'll be talking to those guys. You know, I
mean, if, if it's possible, you know, don't have Ricks
go say anything or anything yet, because, you know, if
-- I, I, I think it's cooler right now. Let me talk to
them and see what happens. And --
JOHN DENTON: Well, the - you know, I don't
control --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I know. I know. But
I --
JOHN DENTON: Indiscernible! --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I think it would be
smarter.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Seriously, wait until --
you know, I don't want them having the radio on
listening and thinking that I'm going on and shoving
them off or something like that.
JOHN DENTON: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm talking to them right
now. And, then, there's been about three guys that
61
have shown an interest, just the la- as of today.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In fact, I was actually
laughing a little bit with Dek earlier, because I
really didn't think there would be anybody.
JOHN DENTON: Um-hum. Yeah, that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Because, you know, after a
few days have passed by, I haven't really talked to
anybody seriously about anything like that. And so --
then I went and talked with a couple guys and they
started showing a little bit of an interest. And, so,
I, I don't know yet.
JOHN DENTON: Okay. Well, let us, let us
know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I will. I will. And I'll
try to call you about maybe -- or call in tomorrow
about quarter to nine as we --
JOHN DENTON: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- indiscernible! do --
JOHN DENTON: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- just to let you know the
lines are working and everything.
JOHN DENTON: All right.
End of tape 208.!
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #209
4/11/93
1:34 A.M. - 11:25 A.M.
Tape #209
JOHN: I've got it. Okay. All right.
STEVE: That's pretty good. That's pretty
good. Now, hey, listen, you know, as I told John 5,
you know, I'm not, I'm not offended by, you know,
people can joke about religion and I find humor it
myself, seriously, I do. And to me it's all part of
life. I mean, even though I'm serious about things
ultimately, I'll still stop to look and listen and try
to see it from another vantage point or perspective.
So, you know, I take, I take what you say, you know,
even though there's humor with it, you know, there's a
serious side to it, of course, and I see that.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: So, you know, I appreciate it, I do.
And, hopefully, one of these days I can articulate in
just a few statements of, if it's possible, you know,
what I'm seeing and, and I don't know, maybe you'll
see, maybe remotely, something to it. I don't know.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: But, you know, I guess what I'll do
is -- I may not even do the rest of the night, but I'm
hoping to get at least a few winks here.
JOHN: Okay, Steve.
STEVE: Okay. And, you know, you know, it's
it's great talking to you, and I know, you know, as
soon as it's over at least you can get back to your
life and so forth.
goes.JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
I'll, I'll keep
the hour,
after 10JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
RICK:
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE
which
RICK:
STEVEWell, you can, too.
Yeah. Well, yeah, we'll see how it
Okay.
But anyway, good talking to you and
you posted.
All right. Thanks.
Okay, talk to you later, John.
All right, bye.
* * 1 * *
Hello?
Hello.
Steven?
Yeah. I can hardly hear you.
How's that, any better?
Okay, yeah. Who's this?
This is Rick.
Rick, okay.
Yeah.
Rick, I'll call you back just after
ll be like about maybe a few minutes
A few minutes after 10?
Yeah.
Q
RICK:4
Whatve you got to do?
STEVE: well, I'm just checking in with --
RICK:
STEVE: -- you to let you know that the phoneYou mean dailies?
is -- Yeah, exactly. That's what we're doing right
DOW .
RICK: Hold on one second.
STEVE: Sure.
RICK:
message
10?
STEVE
an hour, Rick?
RICK:
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE:here. So you're going toOh, okay. I was just getting a
call us back at about
Right. Are you going to be there in
Yeah, I'll be --
Okay, I'll --
I'll be around here.
Okay, I'll talk to you then.
Okay. Hey, Happy Easter.
Okay. You too. Bye.
iiiii
Hello?
Hello. Is this Rick?
Yeah.
Steve again.
Hi, Steve. How are you doing?
Not too bad. I just thought I'd call
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back and let you know again that I'm still talking to a
couple people here.
RICK: Have you? Have you been talking to
them?
STEVE: Pardon?
RICK: Have you talking to them?
STEVE: Yeah. I spent a little time last
night talking with some people, and I'll probably be
spending a little more time today. See what happens.
RICK: How many people did you talk to?
STEVE: Well, you know, don't pass it on yet,
but there's about three people that started showing a
little bit of an interest, so -~ last night when I was
talking to them. And then they got kind of tired and
I would said they wanted to go to bed. So I told them
sit down with them today and, you know, it's -- Not all
three of them are right here. I was talking to one.
RICK: who is that?
STEVE: Well, I, I won't say yet, because,
you know, I don't want -- If any, you know -- It's,
it's a little bit soon yet, but I picked on they might
show a little bit of an interest, so I thought I'd just
keep on talking with them. And if they have any kind
of doubts or wondering about being here, if they think
they should go out, I've always told them, you know, go
ahead and pursue it.
6
RICK: And, of course, if they had any
questions for us, they're free to --
STEVE: Right.
RICK: -- get on the, get on the horn and
have them talk --
STEVE: Right. Well, you know, since I've
been here, I've got to share a lot with a lot of the
people about what the attorneys had to say, and I've
always told them, you know, if they have any questions
of any other thing, they could always talk to you, of
course.
RICK: Sure. Does, does David know that they
were -- you were talking to them?
STEVE: Yeah, he does. He knows.
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: I mentioned it to him just before I
turned in. He said that's fine. You know, he said
keep on talking to them if they show any kind of an
interest. Tell them, you know, by all means.
RICK: So he's, he's supportive of that, he's
not -- anything?
STEVE: Always has been. Yeah, always has
been. If anybody even shows, you know, like any kind
of a question or anything like that, he's always told
them, you know, definitely follow through. But,
usually, you know, he's like in his room. He's not --
7
He doesn't run around too much yet, still, so a lot of
times I'll talk to people here and there. And for a
number of days, no one showed any kind of an interest,
and then last night I was talking with a few. I think
they kind of view it the -- I don't know, people a lot
of times will come passing by when I'm sitting on the
phone talking with some of you people and --
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: - you know, and then they ask me
what the conversation was about, and so then if they
start showing an interest, I'll start just pursuing it.
RICK; Well, who knows? Maybe that's a good
sign maybe, you know. Who knows?
STEVE: Yeah. Well, I just told you I would
check back with you because when I did call before, I
was a little late and I didn't really want to talk
then. It was the worship hour that we have.
RICK: Yeah. Now, are you, are you, are you
all doing anything special today?
STEVE: So far -- well, usually, you know,
like over this whole period we spend some time
together, study the Bible, looking at things, raise
questions, if anybody's got anything to share.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: You know, you might sit down together
and have a meal, but, you know, it's a
8
little -- it's unique right now, of course, because of
the circumstances. So that is -- I mean, sitting down
with a pack of MREs and, you know, there --
RICK: It's not particularly festive, is it?
STEVE: It's all right, it's no problem.
RICK: What's in one of those? I've never
had any of mine.
STEVE: You never have?
RICK: No, I never have.
STEVE: -- cause I never had before, either,
but it's like -- They've got like beef stew and chicken
stew and chicken ala king and meatballs and just loads
of things like that.
RICK: what do you do, just add water?
STEVE: No. Actually, just you peel off the
top and you open it up and it's ready to go.
RICK: Oh, really?
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: Is it just that? Is it just the, the
main thing there or there's other stuff in it, too?
STEVE: Like if it says beef stew, it'll have
beef and, of course, the vegetables and its own sauce.
But we've got other food. I mean, food's not a
problem, you know. So it's --
RICK: I just wondered if they have like
crackers or cookies or stuff like that?
9
STEVE: No. In the, in the total --
Apparently, the total MRE's they do.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: And we've got those here, also, but a
lot of times people just take the individual serving
packs.
RICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE: So, you know, you know, the food and
all that kind of thing would never be, ever, an issue
about staying in, going out. I mean, everybody wants
to get on with, you know, what they see to, to do.
And, of course, the only thing that's ever kept anybody
back is their view of the Bible and they just want to
make positively sure they're doing everything right and
correct and -- So, but we've always said right along if
you have any doubts, anything like that, we've always
encouraged people, including myself -~ I have, even
with David and those people that I've ever given
studies to, if you ever have questions, you can always
go back and check with other sources, other scholars,
anybody you want. You know, it's always healthy. So
we've encouraged that from day one.
RICK: Yeah. Yeah, I know we've talked about
that and you've been real open-minded about that.
STEVE: Well, you know, it's -- I mean, if,
if it is or isn't, then these people here, they've
O
10
always, like myself, tried to go by a weight of
evidence. Like we've always said, you know, you don't
have it all. You're never totally sure about
everything, but wherever the evidence lies. If it's
not here, by no means waste your time.
RICK: Yeah, you've got to make your best,
best judgment.
STEVE: Right. But, you know, I mean, we're
-- Like with David, daily I go and see him and spend
time with him. Well, what do you have and, you know,
do you have anything there? Are you ready to go out or
what's -- He said he's -- it's always been viewing in
mind,
[gap]
I'll,
conference then.
RICK: Okay.
minutes?
STEVE: Yeah
RICK: Yeah.
holler then after that
STEVE: Yeah
that.
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: OkayI
?
I
Iso -- Just a second. One minute here.
Okay, I'll - I guess what I'll do, Rick, is
I'll probably talk to you after the press
Yeah, that's what, about 20
I think so.
Are you going to give us a
I'll give you a holler after
All righty.
talk to you later.
RICK: Okay, bye.
Q I
ll
STEVE: Bye.
RICK: Bye-bye.
iiiii
RICK: Hello?
STEVE: Hello, Rick?
RICK: Hi, Steve. How are you doing?
STEVE: Not too bad. So they don't have a
press conference today, huh?
RICK: Well, you know, after we hang up, one
of the guys came in and told me, he said, you know,
cause of Easter they've --
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: -- they postponed it, so --
STEVE: It's no need or anything for me.
RICK: Yeah. Well, not for me, either.
STEVE: Yeah, I'm sure. Hey, the reason I
was calling back, too, is we were just going through
some of the things of Peter Hipsman. He was one of
the guys that got killed --
RICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- that day and we were going through
some things and found a, a cassette that he had made.
He's no awesome singer or player or anything, but he
always put his heart into what he did, and we found
this cassette and we thought probably his parents,
especially his mother, would like it.
12
RICK: Probably so, yeah.
STEVE: He's on there, he's singing, he's
strumming. That's basically what it is. So I just
mentioned it to David. He says yeah, give them a call
and see if we shouldn't send it out to them and if they
couldn't get it to his mother.
RICK: Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure we could, I'm
sure we could arrange that.
STEVE: I mean, if you guys want to make a
copy or whatever you think it need, at least if they
could get that.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: But, yeah, he was one of those that
did die that day and, of course, I gave -- You know,
first they asked me the names. And being that they
asked, I told them, you know, you actually had the very
names that they were and --
RICK: Uh-huh. Oh, you're talking about the
names of the dead people?
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: Those that -- Yeah, those that --
RICK: You know, they've got to be, they've
got to be pretty careful about that, what they give out
and that kind of thing.
STEVE: Well, I can tell you for a fact, you
O
l3
know, I was there and actually when he was shot, laying
on the floor, I heard about it and I went to see him.
And, boy, he was in so much excruciating pain.
RICK:
concerned, too,
frenzy and kind
STEVE
to handle it --
RICK:
doubt, you know,
STEVE
truth. There's
that day and he
RICK:
notification of
STEVE
RICK:
notification of
STEVE
RICK:Yeah. Well, I think probably they're
about, you know, the media feeding
of protecting the family.
I'm sure. I mean, however you want
Yeah, as long as there's some kind of
as long as there's kind of --
I mean, there's -- I'll tell you the
no doubt. I mean, you know, he got it
died that day.
Yeah. Yeah. There's going to be like
next of kin?
Pardon?
For Peter, there's going to be like
next of kin?
Right.
Do you know who that is?
STEVE; Yeah. His parents, they live in --
Oh, man, it's in New York State. It's upstate. Do you
remember the city? You don't? Talking to someone
else.! I'm sure if I, I think about it or look at a
map or something I'll remember.
RICK:Because, to be honest with you, I'm
14
IIOC SUI6 - -
STEVE: It's a unique name, number one.
RICK: -- we know, yeah --
STEVE: It's Hipsman, you know, like H-I-P-S-
M-A-N, Hipsman. And they're in -- Oh, what's the name
of that city? I'll find out from his, his old friend.
A long-time friend was Greg Sommers. So he'll
remember, I'm sure.
RICK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that way we can,
we can let them know, cause I don't think anybody
really knows except for Kent and, and the other name.
What was the other name that came out? Was it
Schroeder?
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: Yeah, those are the only names that
we've, we've mentioned at all.
STEVE: Right, Schroeder, right.
RICK: And those came out pretty early.
STEVE: Right.
RICK: Those came out pretty early.
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: But I'm sure we can work that out.
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: You say, you say you think they're
from New York somewhere?
STEVE: Yeah, I know he is from New York. I
Q O
15
think he -- As I recall, he was from like maybe 30
miles from New York City. And I think, if it was
correct, seem like it was northwest of there.
RICK: What's his dad do, do you know?
STEVE: He's a construction -- He's into
construction, as I remember.
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: He builds homes. He's got about
five, six brothers, and I think one sister, and the
majority of them live in that area. I'll, I'll
recheck, though, to make sure about, you know, as much
information as I can get on that.
RICK: well, we'll do some checking from this
end and maybe with you and with your checking and
between the two of us, we'll, we'll make sure we get
the right folks.
STEVE: Right. But he was -- We were sure
that, you know, they'd probably want that tape.
RICK: Sure.
STEVE: And we just happened to cross and saw
his name on it and stuck it in a, in a cassette
recorder here and listened to it and it's him all the
way through, so --
RICK: What was he doing? Is he a musician?
STEVE: Oh, he's -- Well, he's -- A lot of
time he used to like to take a guitar. He was no -- He
Q O
16
kind of taught himself. He was no, you know, expert or
anything, but he used to like to sit down and make up
his own songs, which he did a lot. He actually was
good at lyrics.
RICK: Oh, really.
STEVE: He was pretty good at coming up with
lyrics, but I don't know, a lot of those that he did he
never - I can't ~- I don't know -- He never recorded
them, the majority. I think this is something from
sometime ago, but he was good as a lyricist,
but --
RICK: Maybe he was working on a song and
laid it down?
STEVE: He must have. Yeah, I think he was
doing it in humor.
RICK: Laughter.!
STEVE: You know, he, he's -- he knew he was
never a singer or anything. He couldn't
really -- He didn't really have the voice, but he
definitely had an ability to have harmonizing, rhyming
lyrics, and that's where his strength was from music.
But he always liked to entertain himself and anybody
that came around.
RICK: Um-hum. Did he always have an
audience?
STEVE: Did he always what?
17
RICK: Did he always have an audience or was
it --
STEVE: Well, yeah. The guy was extremely
funny, extremely funny. He was good at making faces
for the children and he did a voice like Donald Duck
and do many sounds. And so kids always liked to hang
around and hear him. And he was awesome for faces, all
of it.
RICK: Was he, was he hurt early on?
STEVE: Yes, he was, almost immediately,
within the first probably -- See, it was really hard
for me because I was away from it, way down at one end
of the building, Wayne and I were. And once getting on
that phone, it's like that's where we were stuck.
RICK: Right. Right.
STEVE: And when I finally -- I didn't even
know about him right away, until like later on, quite
sometime. I think the wounded already had been picked
up and taken away, you know, the ATP wounded.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: And then, finally, someone said that
Peter Hipsman -- I says what? And so I ran up to where
he was and there he's laying on the floor, just moaning
and groaning. He, he really got it bad.
RICK: Oh, really?
STEVE: First, he got shot in the shoulder,
18
apparently, and then he got it in the mid section.
From one side, it went all the way through to the other
side. I mean, from, from your side going right through
the middle and exited right on the other side.
RICK: Um-hum. Was he in a lot of pain?
STEVE: Oh, yeah, he definitely was. He most
certainly was.
RICK: Where is he now, once he passed away?
STEVE: Well, they, they took him -- I'm not
sure where exactly. I didn't really want to know, to
be honest with you. I've never really asked. And some
of the guys took care of that and, of course, they'd
have to be brought up again.
RICK: Yeah, yeah, cover all the bases.
STEVE: Where exactly, I don't know. And
that's no joke. You know, I mean --
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: -- I didn't even want to see them
when they took any of these people out.
RICK: I just wondered if it was a health
issue.
STEVE: Oh, yeah. No, that part's okay.
They tried, they tried to take care of that right away.
RICK: 'Cause that can be a pretty, you know,
besides --
STEVE: Most definitely.
19
RICK: You know, I'm not talking about just
discomfort for people, but healthy.
STEVE: No, that's true. That's true.
RICK: You know, affecting water supplies
or --
STEVE: Right.
RICK: ~- or anything like that.
STEVE: No, no. That was - They were
careful about that right from the beginning, because,
you know, we're all aware that, you know, that would be
a definite health hazard.
RICK: How's, how's Judy's finger doing?
STEVE: Not so good, because it's -- You
know, the bones -- Apparently, the bone was probably
either crushed or fragmented and a lot of splintered
pieces are actually coming out through the skin now,
and she's actually pulled them through.
RICK: Oh, really?
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: Does she have a splint on it or
anything?
STEVE: Does she have what?
RICK: A splint or anything?
STEVE: Yeah, she does. She has a splint on,
but it, it's a little mangled, the finger is now, or
seems to be -- It's, it's definitely not good, and she,
she has
seem to
grabbed
and her
keeping20
more pain with it now than she has had before.
RICK: Well, I notice her handwriting didn't
suffer. Was it on the other hand?
STEVE: No. She, in fact, she, you know, she
the pencil or the pen, I mean, with her thumb
middle finger and she actually writes by
it steady that way. But the finger sticks out.
It's, it's her index finger that got it.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: So that finger is -- Of course, she's
got a splint on it and it sticks straight out while
she's writing with the pen.
RICK: Does aspirin seem to help or anything?
STEVE: She doesn't -- Well, none of us are
really too much into aspirins, drugs, anything like
that, unless, you know, you're really under a lot of
pain.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: I mean, it's up to the individual,
but most of them try to be -- stay as healthy as they
can and none of us believe in -- too much into things
like aspirin and --
to takeRICK: I share that with you. I don't like
anything.
STEVE: Yeah. Well, that's good.
RICK: Not even an aspirin.
21
STEVE: Hey, that's, that's great.
RICK: Gets me hollered at by my wife,
though.
STEVE: No, you're, you're right. You know,
if you really do a good study on aspirin and how it
affects the bloodstream, the stomach lining, a lot of
the body, it definitely is detrimental to your health.
I mean, it might hide and take care of a pain
temporarily, but it does not heal the body or help the
body heal itself or positively not.
RICK: Well, I know - Let's see, you told me
about Judy and I know David's doing reasonably well.
Anybody else?
STEVE: Yeah, he's doing real well. Scott,
Scott's arm - You know, his - he got it in the leg
and the bullet's still inside.
RICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE: But the leg doesn't seem to be
bothering him 'cause it, it went through a lot of
tissue, apparently, and he seems to be doing okay. But
his left hand, I think that his bones are broke, too.
It's pretty stiff.
RICK: What, did the -- a round pass through
his hand?
STEVE: Yeah. Yeah, it went through the
wrist area, somewhere in there, and then right on
22
through the leg.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: And then it stopped in the leg.
RICK: Um-hum. And does, does there seem to
be any infection or anything?
STEVE: There doesn't seem to be. That way
she seems to be okay. Everybodys wounds that way seem
to be okay. There's not After all this time now --
They've taken a lot of care and, and, and have watched
it and they've been cautious about it. But, of course,
the bone aspects, healing the way it is, both with
Scott and Judy, are not good.
RICK: Well, how many people were hurt,
Steve?
STEVE: I think, I believe only four, other
than the ones -- the five that died. And, of course,
you people knew more about - I never knew about Mike
Schroeder. That was told to me.
RICK: Oh, really?
STEVE: Being on the outside. Apparently,
from what I'm understanding now, he must have tried to
come to the property.
RICK: Boy, I don't - I have no idea what
happened on that.
STEVE: Yeah, I don't - I'm not certain,
either. Not certain.
23
RICK: But so, let's see, I'm just trying to
get an idea, because this is not an area that we've,
you and I, have talked about.
STEVE: No, that's true.
RICK: And so who, who's the fourth person
hurt?
STEVE: Well, there was, oh, Dave Jones.
RICK: Oh, okay.
STEVE: I'm not sure what happened with him.
Apparently, a bullet must have hit something else and
fragmented, and I think a fragmentation of the bullet
must have entered into his buttocks or something.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: I don't know if it's still in. I, I
think they might have taken it out, but it --Actually,
it moved -- it spun him right around.
RICK: Oh, really?
STEVE: Yeah. It doesn't make sense, but he
says it actually moved him. But yet, at the same time,
he's never really had any pain.
RICK: Oh, really?
STEVE: Yeah. And, and there was a hole --
It's funny. He had blue jeans on, but there was a hole
through his pocket, and he looked at it and then --
well, then he realized. But, you know, because there's
so much flesh and material and flesh there, apparently,
Ox
24
or fatty flesh, he didn't even really realize it. You
know, it's quite a while.
RICK: Is he a stocky man?
STEVE: Well, he's, he's probably about six
foot, five eleven. I think he's about six foot and
he's your normal build, average to maybe a little
stocky.
RICK: Did you counsel him about his walk
abouts so he doesn't --
STEVE: Oh, yeah, yeah. In fact, we got --
You people never reported it to us, but we were mad
with him originally, within the first day or two,
because he had gotten out on the roof and we were about
ready to let him have it ourselves.
RICK; Good.
STEVE: I mean, you know, I mean, really
verbally let him have it but good. I mean, which we
did.
RICK: Good.
STEVE: Like what are you doing? I mean, but
you people never even reported that to us, but we were
mad ourselves 'cause, I mean, obviously, we don't want
-- we don't like anything like that.
RICK: And -- Well, it makes, it makes those
folks out there nervous, you know. They're not talking
to you. They don't know anything about demeanor or
25
anything like that.
STEVE: I, I know.
RICK: They just -- They see actions like
that and --
STEVE: I know they're concerned, also.
RICK: Sure.
STEVE: They've read the newspapers, the
articles. I mean, they don't know what -- if we're
hitting on all eight or not. I'm aware of that.
RICK: That's absolutely. You know, there's
limited information flow, that, that kind of thing.
Unless we kind of coordinate with them --
STEVE: No, we've got --
RICK: -- give them the heads up --
STEVE: Yeah, we've got to try to do, you
know, the best we can --
RICK: Right.
STEVE: -- so they're not intimidated by us,
even though, you know, you've got guys out there that
have tried to intimidate us. But, you know, I mean,
these people, they're different, Rick, in that after
you've gone through such experiences as we have by
choice, being in this Waco, Texas, being in this -- as
you people call it, a compound -- And we, we don't just
call -- I don't even have a name for it. But other
than that, I mean, just going to the -- living out here
26
in these kind of conditions and so forth, to choose
that, there's got to be something of greater value to
see somewhere to be able to handle staying here.
RICK: Sure, sure.
STEVE: And, actually, we've developed what
we call ~- like the Bible talks about a fear of God.
And, I mean, if you've just - Honestly, if you look up
the word, the greatest thing that man can ever ask for
is wisdom and really understanding, wisdom. Really
seeing things, having his priorities straight. What's
he doing here? Where is he going? So, and it says
that the fear -- that wisdom and fear are almost
synonymous.
The beginning of wisdom is -- By fearing God,
that's the beginning of wisdom. So, I mean, because it
makes you sober. You, you look at the issues as they
really are, and that's the way the people are here.
They're not foolish and frivolous and so forth. And, I
mean, and they make their decisions every day. No one
here -- I mean, they talk -- Everybody's, you know,
very verbal and, and boisterous as to what they think.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: They really are. I mean, there's
times that people say well, I'm tired of this place,
I'm getting out of here. I mean, this is long before
February 28th. I've said things like that myself. I,
27
I can hardly handle it. I'm about ready to head back
to Hawaii.
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: But then you take --
RICK: Laughter.!
STEVE: You know, you take another look at
the book and, oh, geez. Well, like here, here's --
there's a -- I don't want to get into -- I won't get
into a religious discussion with you, but --
RICK: You and I could talk for hours about,
about that, my, my, my upbringing versus your
upbringing. I mean, we could just, you know --
STEVE: Yeah. Well, Zecariah 9 talks about
God's people in the final days are called prisoners of
hope. And I can't think of a better phrase to describe
us here. I mean, I, I understand the frustrations on,
on your side, your part, in trying to get us out. And,
I mean, we don't disagree, we agree with you. But, you
know, we've seen a program and a plan and --
RICK: Right.
STEVE: -- we're waiting for the final little
details. And, really, everything's laid down already
and the details have always come. It's not like it
takes years and months and things like that to --
RICK: Well, you know, we're, we're probably
all prisoners of hope, in a sense. I know I'm -- Your
28
hope is and our hope is that folks, folks get to
resolve this without anybody being hurt and everybody
gets to come out and move on with their lives.
STEVE: Well, you know, we, we
trust -- Don't get me wrong, 'cause we trust you, but
the problem here is not that we're, we're prisoners to
concern about what's going to happen to us on the
outside, we're prisoners -- We've seen something that
is eternal, that has been actually, physically using
the realms of physics, sciences, to explain and show
it.
And, I mean, if David can actually sit down
and give some pretty logical reasons how and why the
pyramids were there, and you have ~- your greatest
engineers in the world cannot do that. I mean, how is
that the foundation being sand, you've got these
humongous structures, so heavy, sitting on sand? Yet,
they don't sink. You know, just tell me something
about it. You know, I mean, how did these men of 3,
4,000 years ago, how did they lay these heavy blocks of
tonnage, one on the other, and then so perfect?
Well, you know, he's, he's laid it out to
engineers and they're, they're astonished by, you know,
what he has shown to them.
RICK: You know, I'll tell you, there's,
there's only one part that kind of confuses me about
29
that.
STEVE: What's that?
RICK: And this is on an intellectual level,
which I think --
STEVE: All right.
RICK: -- we're both dealing with. Both a
spiritual and intellectual level --
STEVE: Right.
RICK: -- at the same time. Is that why --
as the Bible has been laid out for everyone to work
with, why David can't be doing the same. Those
people --
STEVE: The Bible --
RICK: Let me finish my question --
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: -- 'cause I really would like --
STEVE: Say that again, that first part,
'cause I think I may -- I, I didn't hear the one word
you said.
RICK: Okay. You know, how the -- Without
getting into theology here --
STEVE: Right, okay.
RICK: -- you know, how the, how the Bible
that you all quote was divinely inspired and presented
out for everyone to learn from.
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: Why David
inspiration revelation and
which does not require him
That, that is a thing that30
can't take that same
do a similar, similar thing
being at Mount Carmel.
I haven't been able to, to,
to really get clear in my mind.
STEVE: Okay. Well, the --
RICK: Because that -- You know what I'm
saying?
STEVE: Oh, I most certainly know what you're
saying.
RICK: In essence, using the prisoner analogy
you used, he is making himself a prisoner in that way
at, at Mount Carmel. In fact, all of you all are
because it sounds like to me where you've been working
with these truths for a long time yourself --
STEVE: Sounds funny to you to hear the place
called Mount Carmel cause
that.we've never really called it
RICK: Well, whatever it is.
STEVE: Yeah, I know.
RICK: -- compound --
STEVE: I personally have never really liked
that. I don't like cliches
RICK: All right. What do you call it, your
home?
STEVE: I just call it -- I've already called
31
it the anthill.
RICK: Okay, the anthill.
STEVE: Whatever, you know.
RICK: You know what I'm saying, though?
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: I mean, why --
STEVE: Yeah, we call it the camp. There's
many terms.
RICK: All -- I don't understand because it
seems to me that all these goals can be accomplished
either at the anthill or out here. And, in fact, more
effectively out here because he'd have greater access
to people.
STEVE: Well, you know --
RICK: Now, I really have a fundamental -- I
have a fundamental conflict on that.
STEVE: Well, you shouldn't because you
should -- And the thing that you've got to remember --
Now, long before I met David, I've spent a lot of time
dealing with scholars for years.
RICK: I know that. You've been very active
in --
STEVE: Well, the thing is they've never had
answers for 90 some percent of the questions I've had.
And what is the reason for this? Well, if you looked
at -- Your question was good, what you asked. If you
32
ever looked at Second Peter, Chapter 1, Verses 19
through 21, it shows that God by his spirit chose
certain men and women throughout the ages of time and
opened up to them knowledge and understanding. And,
usually, he chose people that would definitely be
stumbling blocks in their appearance to those that
would or should listen to them.
God's always tried to make a point in it's
the truth that you're to judge, it's the message you're
to judge, and not the messenger, the one that bears it,
cause --
RICK: Absolutely.
STEVE: From day one, see, we're all sinners,
all caught up in this world that's got cemetery and --
And if you look at Ephesians, Chapter 3, Verses 1
through S, 6 and so forth, you'll find that the Apostle
Paul says that God gave him revelations which no one
else could have unless they listened to him give those.
You'll see that if you right now grab the Bible.
You'll find that an apostle and prophets, those two
positions, throughout the Bible, like in Ephesians 220,
it's the foundation of Christ's church, those two
positions of divine inspiration, I don't -- I've never
had such a thing and I've always been very extremely
skeptical of people that claimed to.
In fact, I'd never bought it from anybody, by
33
the way. The only one that I'd even come close to is
David, and even that, you know, it's a daily thing
where I still ask questions.
RICK: Yeah, but, see, that - but that, that
still doesn't address the conflict.
STEVE: Well --
RICK: What you're saying in those, in those
references don't address the conflict. The conflict is
those messages and that chosen messenger can still be a
messenger, whether it be in the anthill --
STEVE: Oh, I see, what -- Yeah, yeah.
RICK: - whether it be in Waco, Texas.
STEVE: You're talking about place.
RICK: Right. New York City, Hawaii,
anywhere. And, and that's the fundamental problem I
have, just as, just as the prophets in your Bible and
my Bible traveled and gave that message out. Even if
they were in jail, they were giving that message out.
I don't understand why, why it has to be in the
anthill.
STEVE: If you read the Book of Acts, though,
Rick, if you read the Book of Acts, you'll find that
Peter, Paul, these men that ended up being apostles
never went anywhere without divine inspiration and they
were told to go, you know, when to go, why to go. All
that was shown to them. If you take your time and you
O
34
really look carefully, you'll find that they didn't do
-- That's
that, but
First Corinthians, Paul spends this whole
What happens -- I won't get off too long,
a church developed by Paul in the City ofwhy they're called -- You and I aren't called
they were called God's bondsmen. Like in
letter --
but there was
Corinth, and
after he left there was a man that saw Paul doing
something that pretty soon started a schism in the
church which they ended up -- one group starts
following Paul, one Apollos, one Cephas, which was
Peter, and one Christ.
You've got all these groups breaking up and
following, doing their own thing. So Paul writes a
letter using a lot of wisdom. He used tact, he used
flattery,
different
them back
could, we
us could.he used, he used sarcasm, he used many
things to try to reach their minds and bring
to a place where he could reason with them.
RICK: You know, you know, Steven, I know we
could talk Bible, and that's great, both of
And this is what --
STEVE: This is --
RICK: That's what makes things --
STEVE: You know, that's the --
RICK: Oh, no, no, I don't mean to be rude.
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: I'm, I'm, I want to -- I don't mean to
Q I
35
be rude and I want to make a point consistent with what
you're saying.
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: And that is that we could talk about,
we could talk about all of this, and that's what makes
things wonderful, is that we can talk about this and
whether it be on the phone or whether it be in person,
you know, whether in the anthill or outside, whatever,
we can talk about this. The only thing that comes to,
comes to mind is that when people say it has to be done
there at the compound or at the anthill and that
they're waiting for a message and all this, I mean, the
Bible is replete with incidents where people had kind
of, let's say that their channel wasn't tuned in to God
all the time and they, they were in error.
And sometimes I wonder, and I don't, I don't
want to be rude here about David 'cause I know that
you, you support him tremendously, but I sometimes
wonder whether or not, as has happened in the Bible
sometimes, that folks sometimes have been kind of out
of tune because of their own reasons. And, I mean, the
Bible - I'm not the Bible scholar you are, but I know
that it's replete with examples where those kinds of
things happened, where they believe they're following,
you know, the will or the message and they've -- and,
and they have not had their, their minds and ears open,
36
they've been wrong.
STEVE: Well, see --
RICK: And God uses other messages of
communication to remind them hey, hey, you know, let's
get back on track here.
STEVE: Well, see, in every generation,
though, God has had a different message for that
generation.
RICK: Yeah, but we're not talking about the
message, we're talking about the method.
STEVE: And different methods.
RICK: Exactly, exactly. And sometimes --
There are examples in the Bible. And, again, you're
the scholar, not me, but I know that there's examples
in the Bible where some of these people who have been
chosen have focused more on self than on the word.
STEVE: On what?
RICK: More on themselves or on the sense of
self than on the message, okay? And so when I see
someone trying to get a message out and they're doing
it in a method that is inhibiting the message rather
than spreading it, that, that, that has a --
STEVE: Well, see, you and I can't see the
future, though, Rick. And God --
RICK: No, but you don't need to. All you
have to do is see the, see the result.
37
STEVE: No, no. God says ahead of time
what's going to happen. Like long before this took
place we already saw what God had stated to how he was
going to reach people in the final days of earth's
history.
RICK: Well, no one knew --
STEVE: Completely contrary to any human
planning. As you say, it's out of the common order of
things.
RICK: But no one, no one knows when those
final days are except by revelation.
STEVE: Well, we do.
RICK: Except --
STEVE: On the contrary, we do. If you, if
you take -- I'll, I'll sit here right now and give you
chapter and verse, left and right, all throughout the
Bible, God is constantly dealing in time. That's why
it says -- it talks about knowing the times and the
seasons. He talks about --
RICK: Okay, but --
STEVE: -- knowing the day of your
visitation. And the reason Babylon in Jeremiah 50 and
S1, which is actually Revelation 18, is taken unawares
is because they, they did not know the day of their
visitation, meaning ahead of time they should have
searched the Prophecies, found out what God's will was
Q O
38
and when and why and where and how he was going to
bring it about.
RICK: But --
STEVE: That's in the days of Noah.
RICK: But, Steven, are you telling me, are
you telling me that you've looked in the Bible and then
it said to you that on -- Let's see, it's now April
llth -- that on April llth, Steve Schneider, that this
is when the end of the world is going to happen? No.
STEVE: No, you're right about that.
RICK: Okay. And that's my point. That is
my point. I'm not going to debate with you that there
are signals and that kind of thing. You have an
instrument there who is claiming to tell you when that
date is, and I'm just really, really concerned about
the power and the deception of a false prophet.
STEVE: Well, you have good reason to be.
RICK: And I'm, and I'm not slamming David.
I'm not slamming David. We're talking in --
STEVE: Well, I know you're not.
RICK: Okay? Because I don't know David.
STEVE: And, honestly, you've --
RICK: I have real concerns about that.
STEVE: Honestly, even according to the
Bible, you would have the right to do so, I mean raise
questions about him. There's no - You, you have their
39
right and you should.
RICK: I mean, they, they all - I mean,
again, I can't --
STEVE: And if you hear it from me, but no,
you don't know me. If you know anything about the
principles of Christianity, even if you weren't a
Christian, just by having a concern for a fellow human
being --
RICK: Absolutely.
STEVE; -- I think it's, it's the greatest
thing to try to help someone see something from another
perspective or point of view, especially if it's in
their best interest.
RICK: Well, I - You know, and we all, we
all agree. I don't think there's anybody out here in
Waco that doesn't agree that, that having everybody be
safe and the end of this, you know, senselessness be
safely over. I mean --
STEVE: Right.
RICK: -- we're all of the same --
STEVE: Oh, yeah, no question about that.
We're all agreed there.
RICK: I mean, that's just -- there's just no
question.
STEVE: You know, I mean, it's actually --
It's an insult but, I mean, not under -- from your
perspective. I mean you, speaking plural, not
understanding where we might be coming from and,40
you
know, the question's asked from time to time are we
planning on committing suicide. Well, you know,
that's -- there could be nothing more offensive to a
person that believes in the Bible or its principles
than probably that.
RICK: Oh, that, that makes me really, really
glad to hear that, because you know --
STEVE: You know, it seems like I have to
repeat that. It's really a shame that I do because --
RICK: Well, can you understand why people
have doubts?
STEVE: Well, well, I can understand many
things, because of all the rumors and all that's been
passed through the press and the newspapers and
articles done right away from the Waco Tribune,
that information that came, the majority of it,
percent has come from a man by the name of Mark
And, I mean, I sat down with him in Australia.the
all
99
Broe.
I
believe it was November of '90 was the final time that
I saw, saw him Australia. I saw him in Michigan in a
court case with Sherry Jewel about a year ago in
February.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: And he made it very plain and clear
41
to me he had affected or tried to affect and get a hold
of every agency that there possibly is in America to
come at us. And he made -- He's the guy that, with
Robin Bunns, who's out in California right now, came up
with this child-beating thing and all that.
RICK: Right.
STEVE: If that's true, why did Mark stay in
this group for three-and-a-half years? He's the one
that actually introduced me to David.
RICK: Right, right.
STEVE: He's the guy that apparently knew
things about David that long -- And then -- And still
introduced him to me. If that's true, he's self-
incriminated himself.
RICK: Well, I don't know the man and I've
only read briefly some of the stuff that he's, that
he's, you know, spoken about as far as you all. And I
think that may very well have been where some of the
concerns about suicide came, because a lot of people --
STEVE: Well, yeah, it did.
RICK: -- knowing --
STEVE: And it came from, actually, the Gents
RICK: Right.
STEVE: - who also were part of this group,
Bruce and Lisa Gent.
0, '
42
RICK: Okay. And without anybody knowing --
STEVE: And Mark Broe.
RICK: -- that would, that would really raise
some concerns.
STEVE: I mean, he's been saying this about
us since they left. They want to bring reproach upon,
upon us. They can't handle us with the Bible. I mean,
there's no way. I went over there for that very reason
and David -- We actually offered to pay for Mark Broe
and James Tom, a number of these people, a round-trip
ticket here. They could open up to the entire group
anything they wanted for as long as they wanted. We've
always believed in, in a fair time and chance and
people expressing their views. And, and they didn't
take us up on it. We were sure they didn't --
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: -- because they, they've never had
anything.
RICK: You know, I've only heard bits and
pieces. You know, I'm, I'm kind of the media slave,
the same way a lot of people are.
STEVE: I see.
RICK: Is it -- I need to ask you this. Is
it, is it really true that David was intimate with some
of these 11- and 12-year-old girls or 10-year-old
girls?
43
STEVE: No, that isn't true. No, it's not.
But it is true --
RICK: Well, what's, what's the story on
that?
STEVE: But is true about him having multiple
wives.
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: In fact, this come out -- For years
he has opened that up through the Bible, and I can give
you chapters --
RICK: Okay. Well, no, I'm not looking for
the Biblical rationale behind it.
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: But I'm, I'm just curious as a, as
a _-
STEVE: That came from - mainly again from
Mark Broe, because he was already bringing that up back
about - It was in 1990. I was there and David. It
was I believe February-March, somewhere around there.
RICK: Well, how old is his youngest wife?
STEVE: Well, you know, Rachel he married at
14.
RICK: Okay. And was that the youngest wife?
STEVE: Yes.
RICK: Not -- Once he, once he has relations
with a girl, once he has sex with a girl, she becomes
his wife?44
STEVE; Positively.
RICK: Through his, his -- Through David's
theology, right?
STEVE; Right.
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: Well, that's what the
Bible -- You know, yourself, if you've messed around
with one, two, three women, God -- It's a serious thing
to God.
RICK: Okay, I'm --
STEVE: If you look -- See, Exodus 20 is
where the Ten
finger. Read
Verse 9 talks
original planCommandments were written with God's own
the next chapter to it. I think it's
about -- And, see, it was never God's
to have more than one in the first place.
RICK: Okay. Well, the reason I couched it
that way --
STEVE: Yeah.
RICK: -- is because I'm not, I'm not
endorsing or denying David's theology.
STEVE: No, I know you're not.
RICK: So I'm going to say according to
David, and I'm, and I'm not -- For our conversation,
I'm not willing to admit that he's correct --
STEVE: And I wouldn't either.
RICK: Cause, cause we're --
STEVE: If I were -- There's no way in the
world.
RICK: Exactly.
STEVE: It would be insanity to do such a
thing.
RICK: Exactly. Because every person,
whether it be you, me, or anybody, has a right to
question --
STEVE: Positively.
RICK; - his theology, correct?
STEVE: Positively.
RICK: Okay. So that's why, that's why I
couched it that way. So, but for my own information,
Davids theology is that at -- to have sex with a
woman, under his interpretation of the Bible or his
revelation, she becomes his wife, correct?
STEVE: That's correct.
RICK: Okay. And as far as you know, his
youngest wife has been 14, right?
STEVE: Yes, Rachel Hollis.
RICK: Okay. The reason I asked is because
there was something in an article or a report or an
interview or something like that that I read -- I've
been here so long I can't remember ~-
STEVE: Can I say something, Rick?
46
RICK: Sure, go ahead.
VSTEVE: Anything to do with him personally
like that, I'd, I'd always - I've always stepped back
and left him answer for himself. And he'll get into
detail thatll actually astound you.
RICK: Fine.
STEVE: I wish, I wish some of these guys,
instead of asking me, they would ask him, 'cause he
will get into it. Plus, I mean, but I think the thing
-- the reason they hesitate is because he'll get into a
scriptural reason for everything he's done.
RICK: Well, yeah.
STEVE: And then that person can literally
judge that. And if it's faulty --
RICK: Right.
STEVE: - by all means, God is going to fry
his butt good.
RICK: Well, you know, there's a
difference --
STEVE: I mean, if there's a God at all.
RICK: There's a difference between judging
and then, and then also listening to what somebody says
and asking questions about things that don't seem to
hang.
STEVE: True. This is true.
RICK: You know, you know what I'm saying?
4'7
There's a difference there.
STEVE: I do understand.
RICK: Well, there was -- One of the mothers
apparently, according to this report, admitted to
bringing a 10- or a 12-year-old to a motel to, to meet
him.
STEVE: What?
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: I never heard of such a thing.
RICK: Yeah. And that's what -- that really
made me scratch my head.
STEVE: Well, it would. It would make me
scratch mine.
RICK: And, and this is from, you know, the
mother of the girl. And that's like -- And I'm not
judging, Im just looking at it consistency-wise.
STEVE: Well, you know, unless I knew more
about it, who or when or why or have some circumstances
or something to go by, I mean, you know, it, you know,
there's -- See, there's one thing that I try to take --
I've never judged anyone without
giving -- All my life I've had friends of mine that
said bad things about others and I learned early on in
life not to take anything unless you give that person
who's being accused an opportunity to speak for
themselves.
48
RICK: Right.
STEVE: So I'm not quick to judge.
RICK: Well, you know, we still have to make
that important distinction here, you know. We, we
don't have to judge David. I don't have to sit here
and say David's wrong.
STEVE: But, ultimately, you need
to --
RICK: Find out whether or not he has --
STEVE: If he's done the things that the
press has claimed and some of the stories that have
stemmed from Mark Broe, I mean, he definitely would
have to answer.
RICK; Right.
STEVE: There's no question about it.
RICK: And what I'm talking about is we've
got folks like you and me and whoever else looking at
consistency or inconsistency or has, has David, has
David made an error or something like that, which is
not to say David's awful or David's wonderful. We're
talking about error, because he is, you know, he's
flesh, too. I mean there's part of that that's flesh.
STEVE: That's correct.
RICK: And so, you know, and all of us have
made mistakes, even, even the --
STEVE: Oh, believe me, none of us put the
49
man on a pedestal where he can't be judged by what he
speaks and what he's saying and his actions in line
with what he's saying.
RICK: And I feel like it's my obligation,
whether I was a Christian or not, but especially if I
was a Christian, to, to, to examine those things and to
decide for myself --
STEVE: That's right.
RICK: -- whether or not David --
STEVE: That's totally right.
RICK: -- may have made an error. You know,
you can still --
STEVE: That's correct.
RICK: - be living, living in, in God and
make an error.
STEVE: Absolutely.
RICK: You know, we haven't talked with him
for several days. Is he, is he like freezing us out
or --
STEVE: NO, no.
RICK: -- is he willing to talk to us?
STEVE: He goes in -- I really don't know.
You know, it's hard to say how he -- I have no real
answers to give you for him. when he chooses to speak,
he does, and a lot of times I think he'll stay away
from the phone because when he gets on the telephone
l
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13
14
15
16
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18
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20
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25SO
you already know what he wants to talk about. He'll
talk about --
RICK: Well, he wants to preach. You know,
you know --
STEVE: And what can I do? You know, I can't
force him to the phone.
RICK: No. I know, I know. You understand
why, why there's a -- not frustration, but there's a --
It's almost like why -- David, if you want to talk to
us about this, why are we doing it over this fragile
phone line instead of face to face or in person? If
you really want to -- Because it seems like the
constant theme with him is to enlighten us, and
that's -- I mean, that's laudable, that's great. I
mean, especially talking to people who you think don:
want to hear what you want to say.
But I, I think there's a, a fundamental
problem is that why is he doing it -- if that's his
goal, why is he doing it over the phone line instead of
in person? I mean --
STEVE: Well, number one --
RICK: -- it makes you wonder, it makes you
wonder --
STEVE: Possibly --
RICK: You know, I'm not criticizing, I'm
just saying it makes you wonder what his motivations
51
are. -- or what?
STEVE: You know, I mean, it could seem, and
it's possibly so, that it would be a convenience thing
that all of a sudden he says his God says wait. I
mean, everyone of us think this.
RICK: Sure.
STEVE: I mean, you think the process through
RICK: 'Cause it's hard to understand.
STEVE: Well, yeah, but, see, the whole thing
is I've been with him right through the years and I've
been with him when people have offered him, honestly,
I'm not kidding you, like $30,000. He would not take
it. I was with him when a friend of mine, Paul Pada
phonetic sp.!, both of us living in Hawaii, Paul was
worth a lot of money and as time went on he was
becoming greater gains, greater gains.
And he offered much to David and he wouldn't
take a dime from him. And over time, well, he had
worked together with him and they would purchase things
together, something of that nature possibly, or he
might say well, what do you think about this? Then he
might say what he thought about it. But what impressed
me right from the beginning is that he never
accepted -- He says if this is of God, it'll stand,
Godll move it. No amount of money - He says what has
O
52
money done for Jimmy Swaggert?
What has money done for the Baker? What's
money done for Falwell or any of these institutions?
They're not getting, getting the message of God to the
world through televangelism
got a way that's contrary to us human help and
RICK: And you've
How - In your gut, how long
take? I mean, cause it's,
the time for new beginning.
STEVE; I think --
to be long, I really -- Hone
hard to say.or anything else. God's
flesh.
known David a long time.
do you think it's going to
it's Easter. This is like
I don't think it's going
stly, I don't. But it's
RICK: But that doesn't help me much.
STEVE: No, I know, I know. But I don't want
to give you some kind of a f alse hope or, or make --
give you an idea that something's going to happen when
it's not. And --
RICK: Well,
because --
STEVE: It's
RICK: Right.
STEVE: Seriously.
RICK: The reason
constant question, you know,
front office.the only -- the reason I ask is
not going to go on indefinitely.
I ask is because that's the
I get - we get from the
53
STEVE: I'm going to try to -- I think -- I
hope to find the time here - If people give me a
little bit of room here, I'm hoping to find the --I'm
talking about within this place ~- find the time to
stick together some very clear statements as to what
it's based on so you can have a clear idea of what,
what's happening with us. Not trying to get to the
place of preaching to you, but only to the place of
giving some understanding what we're looking at. And
maybe you can discern to some degree yourself what,
what's taking place.
RICK: Well, what are you talking about?
STEVE: I'm talking about, see --
RICK: Another document with a string of, of,
of Bible references, or what are you talking about?
STEVE: Well, yeah, basically that.
RICK: Well, to be honest with you, I'm not
sure that that's clear for some, for some folks. You
know what I'm saying?
STEVE: Yeah, I do know what you're saying.
RICK: We're talking about not the message,
but the method. And the method is falling down. I
understand that you want to talk to us about all this
stuff, but, but that is not as effective as having a
dialogue with people.
STEVE: Well, you can have that over the
54
phone already.
RICK: Yeah, but how many people are you
reaching? You've got an audience of one out here.
STEVE: But you're forgetting, though, that
- Well, no, I don't, because, number one, it's being
recorded. You have other listeners --
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: -- there right now. So --
RICK: Okay. But what is the difference --
STEVE: And distribute it to whomever you
will.
RICK: Okay. Have you ever watched "Larry
King Live ?
STEVE: Yes, I have.
RICK: How many people does he reach?
STEVE: You tell me. I don't have
my -- I don't have no statistics available to me.
RICK: Thousands and thousands of people?
STEVE: But, see --
RICK: And that's, and that's the point --
that's the method -- Again, that's the part that is
confusing to me, because you have --
STEVE: Rick, but we're not -- That's what
I'm trying to tell you. God's got a way that is
contrary to what -- We're not worried about being --
reaching -- getting a message through King or to the
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CBN or whatever else. If this is of God, God'll get
this. If it's not his, I mean, we're a bunch of idiots
out here wasting our time when we could have been
partaking of, of greater things.
End of Tape #209.!
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #210
4/ll/93
11:25 A.M. - 7:38 P.M.
2
Tape 210!
RICK: The message you're getting from God is
coming through David, and I'm worried about --
MR. SCHNEIDER: It's like all the prophets
that - I mean, what do you do when you look back at
these --
RICK: I'm worried about David -- And, and
let me finish this thought.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
RICK: And I continue to be worried about
David missing what he's supposed to be hearing. The
way David's acting now, it's almost -- And, and, again,
this is not to be rude about David 'cause I don't feel
about David one way or the other, but it's almost like
he's afraid to, afraid to reveal himself, afraid to
confront these people. I mean, most --
MR. SCHNEIDER: That --
RICK: Most prophet -- well, let me finish
now.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
RICK; Okay, 'cause I don't want you to be in
a position where you have to defend him. I'm trying to
make you understand --
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I know. Go ahead.
RICK: -- the concept here, okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Go ahead, Rick.
3
RICK: If I would want to spread a message,
okay, I would want to reach the most people possible.
And the reason I can say that is because of my learning
of, of previous prophets, that they didn't do it in a
vacuum. Otherwise, we wouldn't have this, this
document called the Bible for all of us to be learning
from and to have things revealed through. I mean,
David quotes the Bible. It's his tool, it's his, it's
his instrument for educating everyone. All right? If
everyone stayed in an anthill, there would never be any
Bible.
I mean, I was just looking the other day
about something that this guy Cyrus Teed wrote. Are
you familiar with that?
MR. SCHNEIDER; No. In fact -
RICK: We checked, we checked it out of the
Waco library. Let me tell you about it.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Can you get us Can I say
something about that just before you go on?
RICK: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: If you could get us that
book, I'll guarantee to you we'll give it back to you
so you can -- If you even gave it to us for a day or
two, it'll come back in the same condition.
RICK: Well, let me, let me check on that,
cause it doesn't belong to us.
4
MR. SCHNEIDER: And I'm going CO -- I'll pass
it on -- I'm going to -- I would say don't anybody tear
a page, don't do anything.
RICK: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And I'll take total
responsibility.
RICK: Let me check on that, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
RICK: Because it doesn't belong to me. If
it were mine, I'd loan it to you.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I -- No, I know. I
understand.
RICK: If it were mine, I'd loan it to you.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm serious. There's nothing
more healthy to me than that. If David's based
something on some guy that came before him totally,
completely, let the people here see it.
RICK; Let me tell you --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Let it rock the boat good.
RICK: Okay, let me tell you about it --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
RICK: -- so, so you can be thinking about
it. And I'm going to ask them, you know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
RICK: Or even parts of it or something,
because if we have to Xerox it, it's, it's really
5
thick. But it's by this guy named Cyrus Teed out of
Florida.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sounds good, yeah.
RICK: And he said - Let me -- He called
himself Cyrus Koresh, Cyrus Koresh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Cyrus Koresh?
RICK: Yeah, Cyrus Teed Koresh, and it was
back in 1839 to the beginning of the late 1800's. And
I'll tell you what, I'm not a scholar on this and other
folks who know a lot more than I have read it, but the
overview I've given of it it sounds - so much of it
sounds exactly what we've been hearing from David.
And, in fact, what he's been writing. He had to have
read -- checked this book out from the Waco library,
cause it's from the Waco McLennan County Library.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hmmm.
RICK: It was called Koreshianity, the New
Age of Religion, by the Koreshnan Foundation, and it's
copyright I971 by Elizabeth Bartosh. Have you ever
heard of her?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I never have.
RICK: And it starts out -~ I'm not going to
read it to you 'cause that wastes your time, but it
just says the material was taken entirely from the
writings of Cyrus R. Teed Koresh and Dr. Augustus
Weimar phonetic sp.!. Have you ever heard of Augustus
6
Weimar?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I have not.
RICK: And, and briefly, what it goes over is
the divine and biblical credentials -- Part I is the
divine and biblical credentials of Cyrus Koresh, cause
he was born Cyrus Teed, Cyrus R. Teed. Part II is
reincarnation or the resurrection of the dead. And
Part III is the science of the decalogue. And then the
last one is the synoptical outline of Koreshnan
theology, and it was that last part that I went over,
in addition to some of the other stuff.
And we had one of our guys here really dig
into this thing and they said man, this is David. And
I'm wondering if this is his inspiration, to be honest
with you. And I'll be honest with you --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you have a good --
RICK: ~- this is the reason I'm having
doubts about David.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --
RICK: Maybe the flesh has overtaken the
spirit here a little bit, and that happens to all kinds
of inspired people.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, this is true. In fact,
when I was at the University of Hawaii and other
institutions of learning, I did a lot of research into
different leaders and so forth, and it sounds like
7
similar things I've studied in the past.
RICK: Oh, you have my -- And have you read
the Euratcha phonetic sp.! by the Euratcha Foundation?
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, I never did get my
hands on that. g
RICK: Oh, I've got that, and that's several,
several hundred pages. And, again, very similar kinds
of themes. And so --
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, it's funny you
brought that up because I was in Hollywood about six
months ago, maybe about a year ago, and I stopped in a
little store and I got talking with a guy, the clerk,
and he brought that up.
RICK: Yeah. And, see, and that's what makes
me concerned, is because it's real easy when David gets
on the phone to sit here -- it's real easy for David to
sit here and blast us with Bible quotes that would keep
us -- I mean, we'd get broken arms flurrying and
checking the references. That puts -~
MR. SCHNEIDER: But, no, really --
RICK: No, no, no, let me finish.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
RICK: Just let me finish. It'd be a lot
tougher for David to sit down in a group with us and
talk and to be -- and to have us question him about
this, okay? These are people that have not grown up
8
like you have that are basically already on the road,
you know, these are people that, that maybe David
should be targeting. And when he doesn't talk to us
and the only thing he does is, is, is preach instead of
discuss, and we see a lot of what we hear -- I'm not
saying all of it cause I haven't studied him and I
haven't analyzed it, but a lot of the same themes is
stuff that he looks like he's already picked up from
other people.
It makes me wonder about really how sincere
David is, that maybe he's looking -~ he has got the
self more than the spirit. Because if he really wanted
to do what he said he wanted, then he'd be doing it out
here. Okay? I mean, whatever prophet you want to
choose didn't just preach to a roomful of people all
the time. I mean, they went out there and ran with the
masses and they took a stone or if they got insulted or
had something thrown on them, that's what they did.
And they stayed and their teachings have, have survived
centuries.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know --
RICK: It's real easy to be, it's real easy
to be a prophet when you're, when you're surrounded --
MR. SCHNEIDER: If this guy's into self, if
this guy's into self -- And back in '81 when he came to
this place and then in '84 and '5 when his message, so-
called, came, he had
for him. Some money
extremely frugal, he
to California in the
motorcycle, Rick.9
a motorcycle that someone bought
was given to him. He was so
used to go all the way from Texas
freezing cold winter on a
RICK: Okay, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, I mean, but all
through these years he's never spent money on clothes,
on --
RICK: Okay, okay, that's not a problem.
Maybe --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
RICK: Maybe he was more spirit than self
then.
MR. SCHNEIDER: When you say --
RICK: I'm saying now.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- talk about preaching and
not discussing, you brought up how he seems to come
across to you as that he preaches and so forth. Well,
let him get on a topic and react to the topic. I mean,
when you talk about a discussion, what do you expect?
That he maybe talks for maybe a minute or --
RICK: NO, HO, DO.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- 60 seconds and then he's
just -- Remember now _~
RICK: Steve, you're missing, you're missing
10
my point.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I, I understand your --
RICK: My point is --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- aspect, also, I feel.
RICK: My point is from a fragile phone line
it's real easy. I'm saying I don't understand if that
is really his goal why he isn't out here doing it with
us, why instead he's staying there and, you know,
surrounded by the kids, all that kind of thing, rather
than out here among the people. That, that part,
cognitive dissonance --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, see --
RICK: That's a funny word to say. It just
doesn't seem right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It might appear that way to
you, but I personally do not believe -- In fact, I know
that it's not true about being surrounded by the
children and so forth.
RICK: Well, you understand what I'm saying?
You don't understand what people are saying real well.
That's the way he's perceived.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, I do. Of course I do.
RICK: Do you know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Long before this he was
perceived as bad or worse, like I was. Like I told
you, when I first met him I was in Hawaii --
ll
RICK: Then why --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and there was, there was a
lot of people that knew me all over the Hawaiian
Islands. And you wouldn't have believed, Rick, the
rumors that went around about me.
RICK: Okay, I understand that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, then I went to
England. I went back there a year later and I happened
to be in this church one day and they had a, a class
going on the Bible and I started raising questions and
no one could answer the questions. And they looked at
me and they says do you have answers for your
questions? And I says well, have you ever considered,
and I'd point out different chapters of the Bible.
RICK: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And they said wow, whered
you get this? Then later on they came up to me and
they asked me my name. I said my name is Steve.
Steve, what is your last name? And I wanted to avoid
that because I know how rumors work.
RICK: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And when I gave my last name,
oh, we know all about you. You're the guy that came
here last year in a brown robe and you were preparing
the way for a one-eyed prophet and -- I mean, you
wouldn't have believed the bizarre things.
l2
RICK: Do you think -- Well, do you think it
was the wrong thing to do to confront them like that
and rattle their, rattle their theology? Do you think
you were wrong in doing that?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, not at all, because --
RICK: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that's what so-called
Sunday schools are for --
RICK: Exactly.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- is the dialogue and to --
RICK: Exactly.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - bring out whatever truth
there might be that the Apostles, the Prophets saw.
They definitely saw something.
RICK: Okay. So my question to you is if
that was an appropriate thing to do, to be out there
where you can rattle these people's cages and make them
confront some things that they normally wouldn't do,
how are you able to do that being on the anthill?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --
RICK: How are you, how are you, how are you
serving your goal?
MR. SCHNEIDER: What, what you understand is
David has done this for more than 10 years, where he's
gone on -- in churches, he's gone into the most -- the
Baylor - like example, Baylor University. We -- he's
_ 1 3
gone fearlessly into the most scary part of Los Angeles
where, you know, his life was definitely threatened. V
He's been everywhere.
RICK: Okay, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm telling you he's gone to
the media, he's gone here, gone there, gone everywhere.
RICK: And there's no reason to stop.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Finally, the day comes where
all of a sudden -- And, you know, through notoriety,
all of a sudden, he has an opportunity, first, to try
to reach your mind with what he understands.
RICK: Okay, but what has he done, Steven,
since the 28th? I mean --
MR. SCHNEIDER: What has he done?
RICK: Okay --
MR. SCHNEIDER: You don't -- See, you
don't -- This is what I want to -- what I'd like to
share with you, is I want to show you what God's doing
right now, what the process is. You'll never
understand unless you give me a little time, or him, to
open up to you what the program is going to be.
RICK: Okay. I understand that that is what
he says God is telling him, and then we get back to
this.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I'm basing it on the
Bible because it is now clear to me. And I, I think I
14
have the ability to show you very clearly, and you can
wrestle with that or raise questions --
RICK: Okay. But we both agree that the
Bible doesn't tell you it's on April llth, 1993, and
that we have a lot of discussion like this because the
Bible is a dense document.
MR. SCHNEIDER: See, I'm hesitating to say a
lot in reaction to that because you'd have to allow me
to develop a theme for you to look at.
RICK: But we can't do that over a phone
line.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, we could. I've done it
many times, long before you. I've given studies, as
David has. We've spent humongous amounts of money, at
our cost, on calling people. Or they call us, we'll
call them back long distance and give them studies over
the phone, as far as England and Australia.
RICK: Okay, but neither one of us have the
time to explore this.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I do. When it comes to
eternal life, I've got all the time that has been
allotted to me in the flesh. That's what the
difference is, I guess.
RICK: Well, no.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No. But, no -- Okay, this is
Passover. You know, this is Easter. Today is Easter,
15
correct? And it stems from, you know, Easter, Ashtar
phonetic!, that's a pagan. You know, it's all
paganism. Has nothing to do with the Bible and God's
will. But, anyway, Moses - This all comes and starts
from Moses taking the children of Israel out one night
at midnight, a specific time God had them leave, and
took them out, miraculously out of Egypt.
So now we're here in a similar time thousands
of years later. God definitely has a time table and
he'll let you know --
RICK: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- much about that, but still
allows you to have a little room to exercise your
faith, of course.
RICK: And you and I have both agreed that
God, speaking to you through the Bible, hasn't told you
it's April 11th and that you are basing it on what
David says and that we have a right to question what
David says. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, no. Positively.
See, but I take everything what he says back to the
book. It's either going to be there or not. For --
Can I just say something about time? And you can check
up on this. Daniel has 12 chapters in it, a very
prophetic apocalyptic book, as you already know. In
Chapter 12 again it deals with three time periods, and
16
one is time-time, the dividing of time, and it speaks
about 1290 days and then 1335.
And if you look at Isaiah Chapter 23, it
talks about a 70-year time prophesy, as it does in
Zechariah 1. And take a look at Psalms 90. Now, all
these different -- Or Ezekiel Chapter 4 talks about a
430-year period. All these different time prophesies
have a beginning date and, obviously then, an ending
date.
RICK: But no one knows the ending date. Can
you rely on what --
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, you can -- No. And I can
show you exactly what things started, when they ended
already. Already -- Now, for instance, the very key to
Daniel Chapter 12, the 1290 days and the 1335, it talks
about when the daily is taken away that begins this
little more than three-and-a-half-year period of time.
Now, the question has been what is the daily?
RICK: What is the daily, do you know?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I can show you from
your own -~ And I wouldn't give --
RICK: No, no.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I wouldn't want to give you
an opinion or a theory, but, see, this is how we would
go -- I'm not going to do it now.
RICK: Why?
17
MR. SCHNEIDER: You're not interested anyway.
RICK: No, it's not that, it's not that at
all, because, to be honest with you, this is something
that I've never really confronted before, persons that
have this interpretation.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Would it helpful if I started
giving you chapters that you could so clearly see it
without me, just by looking back at your Bible?
RICK: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You looking at the testimony
of some old carcasses that wrote thousands of years
ago.
RICK: But my -- And my point remains then,
Steven --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes?
RICK: - is, is that it, it doesn't make
sense to someone as to why it has to be done there in
the anthill. I mean, it sounds like you've been --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, but I could --
RICK: No, no, no. Let me finish, let me
finish.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
RICK: Because you're saying that the Bible
tells you that and you're waiting for the revelation of
God about what you're supposed to do and all of that.
I understand that. We both have agreed in the past
18
that, that even with your study, that primarily you're
waiting for the signal from David. That's been your
consistent theme for the last 43 days, and I understand
that and I understand what you're saying. My reaction
remains.
A is fine, if this is really good and valid
stuff, then you should be discussing it, the way you've
been doing it your whole life. And, B, we're relying
on David as to when you can come out and do that. And,
C, there are indications as to why David may not be
receiving the signal he needs to be receiving, because
there is some suggestions to us, looking objectively
from a different perspective 'cause you may or may not
be objective, that maybe he's focusing more on the self
rather than on the message. And it's real easy to
always be right if, if, if you're, if you're not in a
two-way dialogue with people out here among the people
that, that would question him and maybe even challenge
him on some of his, his theology, which is - I mean,
that's healthy is, is doing that.
And that's, that is the core situation here.
I mean, that is, that is what it boils down to.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You forget, I've seen some of
the greatest minds. I mean, beyond yours and mine,
people that are ~ I mean, I -- when I was in
Jerusalem - I mean, you and I have an ability, you
Q O
I 19
know, if people express themselves clearly to
understand what they're saying. But I was in Jerusalem
where I saw a rabbi in dialogue with a young Jewish
kid, young, maybe, I don't know, 20, 21 years of age,
and they, I mean, they were so quick. I mean, I
understood everything that was being stated, but to
jump into the conversation, it was a debate on logic
and I was very impressed with both individuals.
But at the same time, I've seen David around
the world take on men of every kind of caliber,
stature, ability of mind, expression, and knowledge,
and they were not able to controvert what he had. As
they got into the subject matter laid out by the
prophets, all the way from Genesis all the way through
to the Book of Revelation, it was --
RICK: Hold on. Excuse me, just a second.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They've got some
problem here --
RICK: Excuse me for interrupting, Steve. I
just got handed a note. It says that there's a little
boy about a year-and-a-half-year-old --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
RICK: -- on the second floor front side
that's chewing on the paint in the windowsill.
Apparently our guys watching --
20
MRI SCHNEIDER: What now? A little boy and
he's, he's where?
RICK: A year-and-a-half-old, it looks like.
He's, he's on the second floor --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Second floor.
RICK: -- front side. He's standing at the
window and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Check whether there's a
little boy upstairs on the second level Talking to
someone else! --
RICK: Yeah, I don't know if --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and he's apparently in the
window. It appears like he's chewing on paint.
RICK: Paint, and I don't know if they're
concerned about him falling out, too, or what, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: There's concern that he might
be close to falling out.
RICK: Or chewing on -- It says chewing on
the windowsill, but the folks that have an eye on the
front have told us to alert you to that, to make sure
nothing happens to him.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Well, thank them for
that. I mean, see, I mean, there's always somebody or
children or these young girls or boys --
RICK: Oh, sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- or somebody that's always
looking out. And it's so hard
everybody all the time.
RICK: Well, that's w
heads up on it.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well,
RICK: Speaking of ch
couple of pregnant women in the
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah,
RICK: Who, who's pre
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well,
I don't know if it's been state
already knew.
RICK: Well, I don't.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well,
know, I just -- I can answer fo
don't know, you know, if I shou
RICK: Worried about
MR. SCHNEIDER: Pardo
RICK: Intelligence o
MR. SCHNEIDER: No.
don't know what it could ever h
RICK: I think it's -
MR. SCHNEIDER: See,
with the parents. I mean, you
RICK: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- wh21
to keep your eye on
hy we're giving you
that's good.
ildren, don't you have a
re?
we do.
gnant?
I haven't -- Let's see,
d or not. I thought you
I, I was just curious.
let me find out. You
r myself, but I don't, I
ld answer for them yet.
intelligence stuff?
n?
r something?
I don't know, I mean, I
urt but, like I said --
it might be their view
know, let me ask them --
ether they want it to be
22
known and all that sort of thing.
RICK: They just, they just told me that the
reason, the reason that it's good to ask is because one
of them was due in March, Aisha, how do you pronounce
her last name, Gyarfas or --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, Gyarfas.
RICK: Gyarfas?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
RICK: Is she due in March?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I think -- No, not in March
at all.
RICK: Okay. Is there anybody that was
due --
MR. SCHNEIDER: She's due, actually, I
believe in May.
RICK: In May?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Or June.
RICK: Is there anybody that's due now or
overdue?
MR. SCHNEIDER: NO.
RICK: Okay. The earliest one is in May?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes.
RICK: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I believe so. Now, that's
what I'm going by, from what I understand.
RICK: If that changes, could you let us
23
know, because --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Most definitely.
RICK: -- that's something that our
commanders are concerned about, you know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
RICK: They're real concerned about that kind
of thing, you know, about everybody's safety, and
they're real concerned about the time table thing
because --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Who's that? Talking to
someone else.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It was --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, there was a little --
You're right, there was a little baby. It was a little
girl.
RICK: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: She was -- I guess the window
was open and she was peeking out and -- Unidentified
male voice in background not discernible.! Is that
right? Talking to someone else.!
RICK: They saw her chewing on some paint,
apparently.
MR. SCHNEIDER: They saw her chewing on paint
or something.
RICK: On the windowsill.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
24
RICK: And I don't know if you used --
MR. SCHNEIDER: They have some pretty good
optics, don't they?
RICK: Well, they're just trying to keep
everybody safe.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I know. You know I'm just --
a little humor there. Okay.
RICK: Laughter.! You know, 'cause that's
all we need is somebody get some lead in them or
something, you know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
RICK: So, you know, that's, that's a real
thing. But, but, hey, you know, it's a concern about
everybody's safety. I mean not just children, but
everybodys safety, and concerned about time table
where people aren't going to get sick or we can kind of
get this thing where, where nothing, you know, nothing
unforeseen happens, you know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
RICK: That's why, you know, they ask us for
any idea about timing on this thing.
MR . SCHNEIDER: Right .
RICK: Cause, you know, we're at Easter,
kind of, hey, symbolic for some people at least, new
beginnings and new starts.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Do you want to share
_ 25
something with me from your personal perspective? Are
you into religion at all yourself?
RICK: Well, I don't want to get into a
theological discussion.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm just curious. You know,
I mean --
RICK: Let me answer you this way the best I
can. I was raised in the church and continue to attend
church, and I believe in everybody's ability to have
their own religion.
MR. SCHNEIDER: --
RICK: Okay, let me finish.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's weird to me, that
about you.
RICK: Let me answer.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --
RICK: It's weird that it's weird to you.
Weird to me that it's weird to you. But let me answer
you this way, okay? Let me complete the answer for the
sake of accuracy. I believe in everybody's right to,
to practice whatever they want, as long as they don't
harm anybody and everybody gets to, to do what they
want. I'm not, I'm not Catholic. I was raised in the
Protestant Church, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what church?
RICK: I attended several churches. I've
26
attended several different churches.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what are they?
RICK: Why do you want to know?
M. SCHNEIDER: Because my whole life for 20
some years has been -- I've studied all the religions,
so I'm -- I know what they're about, what their
doctrines are, what they teach. So I'm curious, that's
all. How come people -- If you would ask me, I'm
not -- How come people are so afraid to ever -- Is it
like it's going to tell something about the person --
RICK: NO.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - or the way they think or
how they work or what? D
RICK: There are personal things about
yourself that you have chosen not to discuss.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I know, but if you're a
Christian --
RICK: Let me finish. No, no, no. Let me
finish now, let me finish now. There are certain
things that you have decided -- you have determined
that you would prefer not to talk about and there are
some things that --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I can't believe this.
RICK: Let me finish now.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm sorry, I don't mean to --
RICK: Well, no apology needed. I'm just
27
explaining.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, go ahead.
RICK: And that there are certain things that
are not appropriate for us to talk about because we
need to stay on line, you know, on track here.
M. SCHNEIDER: well, that's right, we're on
a telephone line.
RICK: And it doesn't really -- it really
doesn't -- You want my honest, you want my honest
reasons for not wanting to tell you?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, go ahead.
RICK: Because the way I -- my beliefs and
the way I was raised does not tie to any one specific
denomination. It's, it's the general -- the Protestant
faith that's in my heart and the way I live my life.
And if I were to identify Methodist, Lutheran --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, John --
RICK: -- anything, then we would start
getting down into -~
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, we wouldn't.
RICK: No, no, no, no, no. Let me finish.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, we wouldn't.
RICK: No, no, let me finish. I don't
mean - Let me finish my thought.
MR. scxnaznsn: Okay.
RICK: If we started putting labels on stuff
28
like that, then we'd be talking about theology and
dogma that really don't relate to me.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I understand that.
RICK: The most accurate answer I can, the
most accurate answer I could give you was that I was
raised in the Christian Church, not, not Catholic, but
in the Protestant faith. And that would tell you as
much as you could know about --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I would not judge that --
RICK: -- what I am.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- because you had the
influence or that you were with a church or two or
three that that's even totally how you think or that's
the where you're at now. I was just curious as to -- I
mean, I'll tell you my influences. It's not big deal
because ultimately it meant nothing anyway. I mean, I
ended up looking at everything and, and trying to keep
an open -- trying, because I don't know that anybody's
totally open-minded, but I've tried to be for all I'm
worth. But, no, my dad, he was Lutheran. My mother
was Catholic, and I became Seventh Day Adventist. I
have that influence.
I got away from it all and then I, I started
studying Eastern religions. One thing led to another.
I got into the Source Book that I call the Bible.
What's happening, Rick?
29
RICK: Nothing.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Are you -- You can tell once
in a while if either you're talking or listening to
someone else.
RICK: No, I absolutely wasn't, to be honest
with you.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It sounded like you were
cupping the mouthpiece or something.
RICK: You know why? Cause I shifted it
from one ear to the other.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, okay.
RICK: I'm not playing games.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No. Okay. No, I, I just was
curious as to what was happening.
RICK: No, that's -- My, my one ear starts
getting tired because this -- the phone here is louder
than yours would be because of some way the guys have
done it.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I see --
RICK: So I have to switch ears.
MR. SCHNEIDER: By the way, getting back to
this thing, I've attended a lot of churches. That's
why I was -- For me it's just a thing to relate to, you
know, when I ask you well, what churches have you --
RICK: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- what, what, what have you
30
been to or what were you brought up with.
RICK: Sure. I understand that. I
understand what you're saying. And that's why I dcn't
want to compartmentalize myself, cause it's kind of '
like what's - Like I said, it's what's in your heart
and, and in your soul, not, not what name --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, I'm not even,
I'm not even questioning your religious experience or
anything like that.
RICK: Right. Oh, I'm not being defensive.
It's no problem.
MR . SCHNEIDER: Okay .
RICK: Believe me, it's not a problem.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You don't want, you don't
want to say what church or what couple of churches
you've been part of then, huh?
RICK: The reason I don't want to talk about
that is because we could start arguing --
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, no.
RICK: No, excuse me, wait a minute.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I would accept your - No, if
you wouldn't even want to talk about it, you would find
out I'd respect that.
RICK: And, and I know you would. And I know
you would. But my point is that I want to stay on
track with, with talking about David and talking about
Q O
31
the stuff that we really have to talk about.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'd like to talk about Rick,
though, also.
RICK: Pardon me?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'd like to talk about Rick,
also.
RICK: Well, come on out and we'll talk about
it. I'll sit down with you anytime. I'll sit down
with you anytime.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you --
RICK: But I don't want -
MR. SCHNEIDER: That, that's not true,
because as soon as we're out it's over. You go back to
wherever you're from and, of course, we pick up behind
bars and, and go on from whatever. Where is one going,
I don't know, but --
RICK: If you believe that no one would want
to talk with you after you come out, then you are dead
wrong. Whether it be me --
MR. SCHNEIDER: It's not that. I mean, who
knows what --
RICK: Whether it be me, whether it be Byron,
whether it be anybody, there's, there is no shortage of
people that would like to talk with you about virtually
any subject once you come out, to try to understand
what is happening, what's going on here. I mean, you
32
are absolutely mistaken.
MR. SCHNEIDER: By the way, Rick, what did
you get -- how many degrees do you have?
RICK: Degrees? Laughter.! What does that
mean?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm told -- No, I'm told to
be an FBI agent you've got to have at least, at least a
bachelor's degree. Is that true or not?
RICK: We have people with all different
kinds of degrees, from bachelor's to graduate to all
kinds of experience in the FBI. We have a broad,
broad, broad spectrum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I see.
RICK: What about you, you do have a college
degree?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but, I mean, I was just
curious because I think I was told by one of your guys,
Dick or somebody, that to be an FBI agent - I was
asking what the requirements were.
RICK: Yeah, we have Usually graduate
schools and stuff like that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I see.
RICK: what'd you do? Did you go to college
in, in Hawaii?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, I did.
RICK: what'd you, what'd you study?
33
MR. SCHNEIDER: I studied religion.
RICK: Why is that not a surprise to me? I
could tell that you've been a student for years, way
before David Koresh. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure.
RICK: You've been on your own search. And
that's -- And, and, I don't want to - And, again, I
don't want to beat a dead horse. That's why, that's
why I'm just so confused about you and David.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm sure you -- Well, I don't
know why you would be. If, if you really took the time
to listen very carefully and intentively, I think you
would hear a consistent tenor somewhere that, hey,
there is something here. But, of course, again, it's
pretty hard to get through the shell that's been
created by the press and by, by past individuals that
have been part of this group.
RICK: Where did, where did David go to
school?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, he -- Somewhere in
Dallas. He dropped out I think his first year in high
school. He has said -- It's just that, you know, I
mean, it doesn't stay with me. It's not, it's not real
important to me.
RICK: Did he, did he study religion at
college?
interest,
Church in
there was
I don't kn
Bible like
not famili
all the re
very broad
and --
Well, see,
in Hawaii
going myW
could, you
h her nor t
happened i34
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, he never did, never has.
RICK: Oh, really?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Although he's always had an
he'll tell you, in God.
RICK: Right, right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And he went to a Baptist
Dallas. I don't remember the name of it, but
a socalled Pastor Billy Harris he mentions.
ow who --
RICK: But he, but he hasn't studied the
you have and all the religious writings?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, he doesn't -- he's
ar with like Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, and
St.
RICK: Sounds like you've had a real - a
analytical background in this, in this thing
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah. Well, you know.
what happened with me is in '71 I was over
having a good time. I mean, everything was
ay. I was introduced to movie stars. I
know, start name dropping, but it's neither
ere.
RICK: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But in the process what
s I met a young man by the name of Ben
Browning. He was going35
to become a quarterback, I
think it was with the Rams, if I remember right.
RICK: Uhhuh.
M. SCHNEIDER: I've lost contact with the
guy, but he gave this up to get into Hinduism and
similar philosophy, and
guy I've ever met in my
RICK: Uh-huh
MR. SCHNEIDER
his back. He was so ~-
RICK: He was
MR. SCHNEIDER
RICK: He was
MR. SCHNEIDERthe guy -- he was the nicest
life and he wasn't a Christian.
He'd give you the shirt off
a good person.
Pardon?
a good person.
He wasn't negative to anyone.
He was always smiling, extremely helpful. And I used
to look at this guy and it bothered me, what on
earth -- I don't want to sit down with him and discuss
these kind of issues. And I was interested myself
because I had been into this and been into that and I'd
been to all these parties. And, to tell you the truth,
it was somewhat empty after a while. There's got to be
more to this -- to life than just parties.
RICK: Yeah. And there's got to be more,
more to life than what we're doing now. I think
there's --
MR. SCHNEIDER: But, anyway, so, see, this is
36
what got me actually starting to look at many other
perspectives. I started looking and looking, and I
even spent time talking with Hare Krishnas and Moonies
and all. You know, in those days, there was a lot of
that, of course.
RICK: Oh, yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But I found them to be
extremely close-minded. Well, if you want to use the
term "brainwashed," I mean, they told their schedule,
what they did and didn't do. And, you know, they were
definitely open to hear another perspective at all.
RICK: Yeah, they're pretty close-minded.
Well, did you meet, did you meet Judy in College in
Hawaii?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I met Judy in Madison,
Wisconsin, back, oh, I don't know, 23 years ago. I
mean --
RICK: Are you from Wisconsin originally?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, I am.
RICK: I could tell by your accent.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Everybody can.
RICK: I mean -- And that's not a bad thing.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I don't know about
that, because when I - After being away for so many
years and I hear people speak from there, it sounds so
bad to me. They have a drawl from the northern woods
37
area.
RICK: Well, were you in school when you met
her or what?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No. At the -- Let me
remember, it's been so many years ago. I was working I
believe for my brotherinlaw. His dad at the time was
in the pipeline business and I think I was - might've
been laid off at the time. It was about when I met
her. It's a lot of years ago.
RICK: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I actually met her in a place
that I used to frequent. Not so much a bar, but a
dancing place where it was a very light place and a
thoroughly decent place to meet people.
RICK: How old were you?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Let's see, it would have been
about 20 years of age, 21 I think.
RICK: And would you all go dancing and
stuff?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
RICK: There's a lot of -- In fact, there's a
lot of both alcohol and nonalcohol dance clubs around.
I don't know if it's here in Texas or not, but in other
parts of the country I've been.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, Hawaii is a place, of
course, that's heavily into health.
38
RICK: Right, exactly.
MR. SCHNEIDER: People that are interested in
exercise and staying fit. In fact, I've never been
anyplace in the world where you see people everyday
running, jogging, everywhere you go.
RICK: Really? Really? And so you all
moved - Then you moved to Hawaii?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. See, I lived there
when I was five years old. My family lived there and
they moved away, they went back to Wisconsin. And as
soon as I had the ability financially and so forth, I
went back to Hawaii. And it was always back and forth,
back and forth. But toward the end, I spent a lot of
time in Hawaii. I planned on living there for the rest
of my life.
RICK: Could you -- Did you like the healthy
aspect?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, most definitely. I was a
vegetarian. I'm not now, but then I was a vegetarian
up until, oh, I don't know, four years ago, whenever it
was I started eating meat again.
RICK: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But I was a vegetarian, was
out running. I did a lot of -- I loved swimming and
hiking.
RICK: Did Judy share that?
O
39
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, most definitely.
RICK: That's something you had in common?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, the thing - We, we
right from the beginning were into the same things,
backpacking, hiking. We liked studying the Bible
together. We liked, you know,
and so forth, so, you know, it
from day one.
RICK: How long were
MR. SCHNEIDER: This
about -- It was from '83 until
about
yearsthe same kind of foods
worked out well right
you there?
last time, let's see,
'86. Well, really,
-- We left finally in '88. But during about two
period of time I -- about a year-and-a-half I
was traveling all over the place, around America and
even over to England and so forth.
RICK: About and around, huh?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
RICK: Hmmm.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And all in regards to, of
course, raising questions and going to scholars about,
about David. And, I mean, I really myself, I tried to
rack him up good, I mean left and right, hit him with
questions. And I knew a lot of ministers in Hawaii, I
talked to them about him. Psychologists I brought over
to see him. A lot of different people. But they, they
never were It was not even a competition, was never
40
even close.
RICK: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And, in fact, in the
beginning that annoyed me because there were some
things I didn't like and I tried to nail him down but
good, but he'd always go beyond the question. I mean,
he definitely showed clearly the answer, if you're into
the Bible that is. You know, not -- no on has to be
into anything, but I was, you know, it's a source book
that I've trusted for over a period of time now.
RICK: Sure. Sure. You and the Bible,
right?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
RICK: That's -- You know, that's again my
theme, you know, you and the Bible, not, not David and
the Bible.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's correct.
RICK: You know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: If he opens something up, you
know, everybody goes back on their own
RICK: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - takes, takes a break,
looks at it --
RICK: And if he doesn't, and if he doesn't,
or perchance he's wrong, then that's, you know, that's
you and -- that's Steve and the Bible.
41
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's right.
RICK: That's, that's -- that is the path.
That's where I would hope that you'd be headed.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, see, that's where all
these people are.
RICK: So - But --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Seriously, they are.
RICK: Well, I hope so. And, and you're
going to be talking to those three people?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah.
RICK: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah, I will be.
RICK: I'd like to be able to pass along
constructive to folks. What -- I m just curious as to
what, what their reasoning is, what's made them decide
that they, they think they want to come?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't really -- Well, I, I
guess - well, just knowing that we're going to
eventually be going out anyway. He's never said to
anybody hey, you don't have to wait for me, you know,
never -- it's never been like that, ever.
RICK: Well, why don't you go visit with
them --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
RICK: - so that if we do need to do
something, I can make sure that the, the folks on the
42
outside are fully prepared and nothing goofy happens?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, remember now,
I don't know for a fact --
RICK: Oh, I understand that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: when I started talking, about
three different guys, they started showing an interest.
I mean, you know, I'm always looking and pick up on
anything I can.
RICK: Oh, I'm not, I'm not sitting here
giving you any pressure or anything.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I know you're not. But,
you know, see, right -- Like with these people, right
from the beginning, though, if anybody even shows any
kind of an interest --
RICK: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- David -- I mean, he, he,
he sees that he's got to do something. He's got to
wait on his God. He's not afraid to come out, he's not
afraid to talk to anybody. Whatever they do to him,
they do to him.
RICK: Right. And that's why I'd like to see
him come out and do that. I mean, I'd like ~-
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah. And, and --
RICK: The proof is, the proof is in the
pudding. I'd like to see him come on out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Seriously, for a fact, he was
43
coming out that Tuesday. I tell you for a fact. They
had tried to pull on, you know, help him get dressed
and everything else and --
RICK: Well, I hope he, I hope he gets back
into where he hears what I believe he should be
hearing, and that is that it's time.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know --
RICK: It is time.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- positively. There's no
question --
RICK: It's hard, it's hard for me to believe
that if he was so close that, that it, you know, that
it was a 180. I just -- I'm - You know me, I'm --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, there are some things
that I'd like to say to you about that, but, you know,
it'd take a little time --
RICK: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- to develop what happened
in, in very detailed --
RICK; Well, why don't you, why don't you
talk to those people and maybe - And I know you're not
comfortable telling me who they are, and that's fine, I
respect that. It might, it might be a good hope that
it's the pregnant women or maybe some children or
something like that. But that's -- not something
that --
44
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, I'll, I'll
keep on talking to them --
RICK: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- throughout the day, and if
something develops I'll let you know.
RICK: Yeah. Just --
MR. SCHNEIDER: How long are you there till,
Rick?
RICK: Oh, I'll be here for a while, a long
time.
MR . SCHNEIDER: Okay .
RICK: So just, just give us a holler back,
'cause I'm, I'm going to grab a bite to eat. I'm
getting a little run down here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I am myself.
RICK: I think Byron's ordering pizza for me,
so --
MR. SCHNEIDER: What's that?
RICK: Byron's ordering pizza for us, so --
MR. SCHNEIDER: He is, huh? Well, that's
pretty decent of him.
RICK: He, he says he's got yours, he says
he's got yours waiting when you're ready.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you tell that Byron --
Now, he's been out here a couple times. He could have
brought one along with him one of those times.
45
1 RICK: I think he's hoping that you could sit
2 down at a
3 instead --
4 MR. SCHNEIDER:
5 RICK: Somehow,
6 a field --
7 MR. SCHNEIDER:
a RICK: Okay, I,
9 him down.
10 MR. SCHNEIDER:
11
12 MR. SCHNEIDER:
13
14 MR. SCHNEIDER:
15 RICK: Bye.
16
17 RICK: Hello?
18 MR. SCHNEIDER:
19 RICK: Yeah.
20 MR. SCHNEIDER:
21
22 MR. SCHNEIDER:
23
24
25RICK: Take carecheckered table together or something,
Yeah.
standing out in the middle of
Say hello to Byron for me.
I definitely will. I'll hunt
Okay.
RICK: All right, Steve.
Talk to you later, Rick.
Bye.
iiiii
Hello.
Rick?
RICK: Yeah, Steve.
Yeah, I've got a request from
some of the mothers. I was just going down the hall
and, man, I've got -- There's a few things that I
wanted to do today, but I'm being already distracted,
but they just came to me and they asked if a request
46
couldn't be made that -- They're concerned about their
children. They don't -- we're not into Easter eggs and
Easter egg hunts and all that, so I don't know how you
would go about it, but if you could pass on to the
social workers that if they could respect the way we
view religion and, and our holidays and so forth.
We're not into Easter egg hunts and all that sort of
thing.
RICK: Oh, as far as the kids that are out,
you mean?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, those that are out.
RICK: Oh, I see what you're saying. You
want us to relay to them that --
MR. SCHNEIDER; Yeah, they don't want them --
RICK: - about the Easter thing?
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- participating, yeah, and
getting into, you know, an Easter
RICK: Oh, I understand
Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
RICK: I'm, I'm sure we
to them.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, I
Rick.egg hunt.
what you're saying.
can relay that along
appreciate that,
RICK: So as not to cause a problem there
with --
O
Greg.
line, make
have him47
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, that's great.
RICK: Sure. Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thanks a lot.
RICK: Okay, man.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Bye.
RICK: Bye-bye.
iiiii
Telephone dialed and ringing.!
GREG
RICK
GREG
RICK
GREG
RICK
GREG
RICK:
GREG
RICKHello?
Hello.
Yeah.
Steve?
No, this is not Steve. Who's this?
This is Rick. Who's this?
Hi, Rick. How are you doing? This is
Hi, Greg. How are you?
Pretty good.
We're just calling in to check the
sure it's still functioning.
GREG: Sounds good.
RICK: Okay.
GREG: Steve's not available right now. I
give you a call as soon as he is available.
RICK: Okay. All right. Is
GREG: Yeah, everythings fine.everything okay?
presentRICK:
GREG
RICK
GREG
RICK
GREG
RICKOkay.
Okay.
What about David, is he there?
No, he's not available either at the
He's not?
No.
Okay. All right. Well, just -- if
you would, just tell, tell Steve we
he can give us a yell back.
call me
talking.GREG
RICK
GREG
RICK
GREG
RICKOkay.
Okay?
I'll do that, Rick
Thanks, Greg.
Yeah. Bye-bye.
Bye.
* ¢ i * +
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello?
DICK: Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes.
DICK: Dick.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Dick.gave him a holler
DICK: I was disappointed that you didn't
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I was busy still, still
49
DICK: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I know when it's you because
you've got a "Steve, Dick."
DICK: Yeah. And, well, I just thought I'd
check with you. I thought maybe you might have more
than three now, by now.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It's -- I guess -- I don't
know, I'm still kind of waiting on them. I managed to
talk to them for quite a while, but --
DICK: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- nothings set. Pardon?
DICK: Oh, I just said yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, hey, Dick, you heard
about that book, didn't you, on Koresh?
DICK: Yes, I did last night.
MR. SCHNEIDER: What is they - They were
going to check on me. Rick was going to and
somebody -- I think one of the - John-4 I think, about
maybe mimeographing a copy --
DICK: I have not heard the progress on that.
I think --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, listen, I'll pass it
around to everybody in the place.
DICK: Byron said that you were interested in
that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Huh? Pardon?
O
50
DICK: Byron did say you were interested in
that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DICK: And I, I don't know what's transpired.
That would have been probably during the day. I really
don't know what's -- In fact, I've got a copy of it
right here in my hand.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You've got the copy in your
hand right there?
DICK: "Koreshianity --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I definitely don't
understand where we're coming from.
DICK: " -- The
MR. SCHNEIDER
DICK: Yeah.
Foundation.
MR. SCHNEIDER
huh?
DICK: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER
DICK: And --
MR. SCHNEIDER:II
K-New Age Religion by --
The new age religion, huh?
-- by the Koreshnan
By the Koreshnan Foundation,
O-R-E-S-HN-A-N Foundation.
Hmmm.
Yeah, there --
DICK: Copyright 1971.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's - They gave me all
that information.
DICK: Oh, did they? Okay. Okay. Yeah, I
51
guess it deals with --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'll tell you what, I'm
talking to so many Johns, I'm starting to forget. I
know I talked to both 4 and 5, O'Neil and the --
what's --
DICK: John O'Neil, yeah. And then probably
John-4. He's on at night. Mark Young maybe.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, yeah.
DICK: Did David -- Did you run this by David
and mention it to him or --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah. He says well,
yeah, he says get a copy, let everybody see it here.
DICK: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, that's the way he's
always been. I mean, definitely nothing --
DICK: How about a copy for five people?
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's be all the better.
DICK: You'll send five people out and I get
you a copy of it?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, I thought you were going
to get at least five copies for --
DICK: Oh. No, I'm talking --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Then maybe you can get them
all out.
DICK: I was talking people out. Well, I --
Hang on just a minute. I think I've got another call
52
across the room there. Okay. Yeah, somebody just also
asked me did David -- did he know about this book? Was
he aware of it?
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's never heard of it.
DICK: Huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I asked him. Never heard of
it.
DICK: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But he says by all means,
send it in, show it. He just --
DICK: Well, of course, that's not my
decision, you know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DICK: This is another thing that's got to go
by the commanders. But I'll -- I don't know, I'll
check with the --
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, remember, you
always have access to anybody here, anybody. You can
talk to anyone at anytime. That's what he's always --
You know, Ive, I've said it over and over and over
again. He's -- Any teacher, any scholar, anybody,
anywhere --
DICK: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- who communicates any
facts --
DICK: I'd like to get those three out
53
tonight, Steve. How's -- What, what's the - what are
the prospects there?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm not sure. You know, I
was kind of -- Last night I picked up on a couple
things, but I'm not too sure right now. That's why I
didn't want to give any names yet.
DICK; Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But, I don't know, it's
always possible. You know, I'm still talking and I, I
don't know yet. I don't know yet.
DICK: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm afraid that if I push too
hard it might go the other way. So that's why I've -
just kind of -- I talked quite a bit and I've kind of
laid back a little bit now, and just to see, you
know --
DICK: Sure. What are the circumstances of
these three individuals?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't know. To tell you
the truth, it didn't -- I don't know, maybe it's the
time being here already and wanting just to get on and
get things done. I'm not sure. It seemed to be that
one anyway.
DICK: Yeah. An older fellow, a young fellow
or --
MR. SCHNEIDER: About -- Young, yeah,
54
younger.
DICK: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And with all that, it's just
I guess people wanting to get it finished up.
DICK: Well, you know, it's -- Really, in the
long run, it's in everybody's best interest to come on
out of there.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
DICK: And I know we've been over this and I
always --
MR. SCHNEIDER: See, like with David, he's
always been the type, too, if anybody even slightly
shows an interest, I mean, he'll encourage them right
out the door.
DICK: Well, how about yourself? Are you
showing an interest?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Am I showing -- Oh, I've --
Carnally, I've been interested since day one.
Spiritually, I'm still looking at that hard rock,
seated on a throne, and there's a book with Seven
Seals. And that, that's got me concerned. And you've
got -- Probably -- That's right, you got to read that
letter, of course, both letters, huh?
DICK: Yeah. Yeah, I read those.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- Koresh.
DICK: We talked about them last night,
55
right. And I guess a lot of people interpret that
first letter as being somewhat threatening and hostile.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I would sure interpret it as
being threatening and hostile. And I read it and the
friends is directed to, you know, just like in the days
of Noah. It's a -- It's strictly from the Bible and,
you know, Noah, his message was it couldn't be more
threatening than that, that God was destroy everybody,
all living things off the face of the earth.
DICK: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And it did happen. I
believe, I don't know if you do, but I believe it
happened. So in the final days, Christ says as it was
then, it will be in the final days. People are eating
and drinking and giving -- and marrying and giving in
marriage, just like today. And, according to God, you
know, you have more than one sex partner at any time
and that's your wife. So there's a lot of men in this
country and around the world that have been doing a lot
of marrying.
DICK: Yeah. Well, see, I -- That's why I
have trouble, like with David --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DICK: I guess the way I see it I would
consider him an adulterer then. Big time, you know
what I mean?
56
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, look up what the world
"adultery" means.
DICK: And with children under -- with gals
under age, also, you know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's not so.
DICK: -- that's kind of frowned upon.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But that's not so, though,
Dick.
DICK: Well, 14, that's certainly not the age
of consent by --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure, it is. If you look --
And I'll give you instances in the Bible --
DICK: I'm not, I'm not talking about the
Bible right now. I'm talking about, you know, man's
laws, the reality of --
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, you know that if
you --
DICK: -- state laws and, and probably
anywhere in the country, I would guess.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You can commit fornication
once. After that, it is adultery. So if you've had
more than one sex --
DICK: Oh, that's --
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, that's what the Bible
shows. I'll take you right to Paul's writings, I'll
take you right back to Levitical law. After that, it
92
is adultery.
DICK: Well, I guess we won't argue
semantics.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, no, we won't, 'cause
don't need to.
DICK: I think it's --
MR. SCHNEIDER: You can -- I mean, if you
believe the Bible --
DICK: It's a state law, Steve, that, you
know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: God's got a law that is so
higher than man's --
End of Tape 210.!
J
92
92
I
92
92
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #211
4/11/93
7:38 P.M. - 11:42 P.M.
Tape 211!
DEC: Well, I guess, you know --
STEVE: I told Jose --
DEC: - I, I try to abide by --
STEVE: Yeah, I told Jose to marry two, not
one, but two --
DEC: Most, most religious -- Yeah, most
religions I think --
STEVE: -- which is against his law, of
course.
DEC: -- frown upon sex with more than one
partner or several partners at one time and so on and
so forth.
STEVE: Hey, what do you do about like the
Ten Commandments, of course? It says thou shall not
kill, but then you have like in First Samuel 15 and
many places where God directly tells him to kill
infants, sucklings, children, sheep, ox, and women.
DEC: Yeah, that's the Old Testament, though
right? I'm operating under the New Testament.
STEVE: Old Testament? That's God, the same
God that created you and I, all the way through to the
last days when Revelation 14, it says that the lamb --
there's going to be torment in front of the lamb, the
God on the throne --
DEC: Well, I guess, you know --
3
STEVE: -- people are going to burn.
DEC: I guess we're all going to have to face
that at some time, you know, when we die, Steve. But
I'm not going to --
STEVE: The problem is you don't understand
now -- V
DEC: I'm worried -- yeah, but you know, I'm
worried about the here and now and those people --
STEVE: That's what I'm interested in.
DEC: -- coming out safely. I'm concerned
about everybody coming out safely.
STEVE: Well, yeah. Well, don't worry,
they'll all come out safely.
DEC: And that's --
STEVE: I'm concerned about that at all
because we believe in God. God'll take us out safely.
DEC: That's the only reason I'm here in
Waco, Texas.
STEVE: Well, the only reason I'm in Waco,
Texas --
DEC= Is to help -- if I can --
STEVE: -- is to learn the love of God.
DEC: -- at all help to facilitate people
coming out safely. And --
STEVE: You mean to tell me you didn't come
to Waco to learn the Seven Seals?
DEC: Steve, in all honesty, I did not, and
I'm --
STEVE: Well, that's because you were never
aware of such a thing.
DEC: Well, we won't discuss that.
STEVE: Laughter.! We won't?
DEC: Let's not discuss that.
STEVE: Dec, where, where did you say you
were from again? Where are you living these days,
where's home? What state?
DEC: Well, I'm, I'm here -- I'm from here i
Texas.
STEVE: Are you really?
DEC: Yeah, from over around east Texas.
So --
STEVE: Yeah. Well, that's a lot nicer, I
think.
DEC: And -- yeah, it's a little greener
and --
STEVE: Exactly. That's what I like, the
green.
DEC: Anyway, it's fairly nice.
STEVE: You didn't seem to have that kind of
an accent. That's why I was wondering.
DEC: well, I was originally from
Pennsylvania and I've been, you know, --
STEVE
DEC:
for a couple of
STEVE
DEC:
STEVE
DEC:
STEVE:
DEC:
STEVE:
DEC:
STEVE
DEC:5
Well, no wonder.
-- bounced around. I've lived in L.A.
years, Washington.
Yeah.
Illinois and so on and so forth. So --
Right.
Missouri, here, there.
Missouri, huh?
Missouri, yeah. Instead of Missouri.
Right, right.
So -- Steve, what --
Okay.
I'm counting on you to get some people
out. Are you just kind of, you know, making small talk
or, you know --
STEVE:
DEC:
coming out this
STEVE
That's why --
DEC:
STEVE: No, not tonight,
Unless they, you know, that's what
DEC:No, no. Last night --
Is it feasible that three people are
evening?
Well, I'm not so sure right now.
Ohhh. See, I hate to hear that.
for sure not.
they stated.
Not tonight now?
STEVE: That's not been stated. But so far.
you know, last night when I was talking with a couple
6
people, they were just showing a little bit of an
interest and I picked up on it and talked to them a
little bit further, but --
m-:c= All right
STEVE: You know, like I said, David, he's
always -- anytime anyone shows any kind of an interest,
he'll encourage them right on out.
DEC: Yeah. So
or --
STEVE: Yeah.we're saying no, not tonight
DEC: Or is there a question?
STEVE: Well, no. Yeah, it's always a --
DEC: No -- wait a minute, you're saying no,
yeah. Well, you're confusing me.
STEVE: Wait, wait. No, I don't have
anything definite yet.
DEC: Okay.
STEVE: I don't
DEC: All right
STEVE: But you
know.
DEC: I'm going
thanks. Am I to sit here
phone here?have anything definite, so --
So --
people will be the first to
to sit here on the edge --
on the edge of my seat by the
STEVE: No, I wouldn't do that.
DEC: Oh, okay. So then it's not probable
that three are coming out tonight?
STEVE: Let's -- yeah, let's leave it like
that because I don't want to get your hopes up.
DEC: Oh, Steve, you disappoint me.
STEVE: Hey, look, I'm, I'm trying, honestly
I really am.
DEC: Oh, I know. Yeah.
STEVE: I mean, seriously. Myself not yet,
but, you know, anytime someone shows even slightly an
interest.
DEC: What about Judy? She'd rather suffer
than, than get treatment for her hand?
STEVE: Well, you know what, though? The
food starts getting little and low and it's looking
like it could, you know. I'm thinking of that pizza.
DEC: Yeah.
STEVE: But I'm expecting it'll be -- you
know, this is at the government's expense. I'm
expecting you to fly one down from Piezan's phonetic
sp.! out of Madison, Wisconsin.
DEC: Oh, I don't know, I didn't say about
that, that far. I said a pizza, but I didn't -- we
didn't agree on where.
STEVE: Well, shoot --
DEC: Steve --
STEVE: -- you must have an agent in Madison
8
that needs to come down here and negotiate.
DEC: Steve, to parrot you, Steve, I'm
working on it.
STEVE: Laughter.! Okay.
DEC: I'm working on the pizza from Madison,
Wisconsin.
STEVE: Okay.
DEC: Trust me, I'm working on it, right?
STEVE: I believe you.
DEC: I'm not working on a pizza from
Madison. From here in Waco, yeah, that I can assure
you, but not from Madison.
STEVE: Yeah, Dec, so why do you think we're
so crazy for, anyway?
DEC: Pardon me?
STEVE: Why do you think we're so crazy?
DEC: Aren we talking pizza or -~
STEVE: -- off the -- no, I just changed the
subject there.
DEC: Right. Are you --
STEVE: I says so why do you think we're so
crazy?
DEC: I don't - did I ever indicate that you
were so crazy? _
STEVE: He wants to know if he ever indicated
if we were so crazy? No, I, I --
92
9
DEC: Is that David, or who are you talking
to?
STEVE: No, I'm just, I'm just -- no, there's
a couple friends here.
DEC: Oh. Well, are they ready to come out?
Tell them we'll have the Bradley ready at the end of
the road.
STEVE: You know, it's all in reaction
to -- of course, I can tell how you guys talk always,
you know, through it all you can see that you've been
affected by what the press is saying, you know, the
papers, the media, all that sort of thing.
DEC: Well, I think everybody has. I think
it's --
STEVE: Well, I know, but I mean, I can --
DEC: -- true for you all in there.
STEVE: Well, yeah, but you've taken it as
fact. I can tell how you talk with and to us and, you
know --
DEC: Well, you'll have to explain. I don't
understand.
STEVE: Well, you know, there's always the --
you can tell by the reaction and so forth, the
questions asked, the statements made about David and
his --
DEC: I don't -- well, okay.
10
STEVE: -- you know, child molestation, child
sacrifice, child --
DEC: I've never, I've never said anything
about child sacrifice, about -~
STEVE: No, no, but that's another one. It's
funny that hasn't come up, because that was one that
was used against us for quite a while. Did you know
that?
DEC: What?
STEVE; Mark Broe got that one going a couple
years ago.
DEC: See, I don't know what Mark Broes
got -- is talking about.
STEVE: Well, see, all this stuff that you
ask him about, you know, in relation to ages of women
and so forth, that all has come from Mark Broe.
DEC: Well, no, I think it's come from some
other people as well.
STEVE: -- with that bus. They unloaded all
that in the bus. I'm, I'm looking for some letters
that this Mark Broe once -- that we found of his,
private letters and --
DEC: Yeah. Well, are other people
listening? Are they, are they standing by there?
STEVE: Yeah.
DEC: Do they want to come on out?
11
STEVE: Well, they're sitting and listening.
And there's one or two that -- do you want to talk to
anybody here maybe?
DEC: Well, well, why do you have a speaker
phone? Are they on a speaker phone?
STEVE: I don't have a speaker phone.
DEC: Oh, I thought you said they're
listening.
STEVE: Remember -- no. With the
electricity, most of these phones they have a double --
like a plug apparently that goes into the wall. So no,
we don't have that.
DEC: Oh. Oh, like an extension plug or --
STEVE: Well, you know, I don't know.
There's the phone that we're using like that -- that we
could have used like that. It had a little plug that
went to a small, what is it, a transformer or
something.
DEC: I don't know.
STEVE: Into the wall. -- it's for a
smaller, a lesser amount of current.
DEC: Yeah. Well, are these, are these the
people there, Steve, that are thinking about coming out
or --
STEVE: No. There's always -- or, usually,
when I get on the phone with you people there's someone
12
that comes around to hear what's going on.
DEC: Yeah.
STEVE: And that's what happened last night.
So, you know, it seemed, it seemed to be a good rapport
and, and from just the reaction of the conversation off
and on, I think -- I just started noticing some of the
questions that were asked, that maybe - I, I was
thinking there might be an interest.
DEC: Well, it's --
STEVE: But that's why I didn't want to -
DEC: - 24 hours, right?
STEVE: That's why I didn't say anything real
strong. I says don't, you know, this is just between
us, just now. I says just, just wait a little bit
because I'm going to pick it up and see what happens.
SO --
DEC: Um-hum. Why don't, why don't you lead
all the children out?
STEVE: Why don't I lead all the children
out?
DEC: They're not old enough to make a
decision.
STEVE: If they were mine. I mean, I can't
lead out somebody else's children, Dec.
DEC: Well --
STEVE: If you'll allow me to lead yours out
13
DEC: Have the parents lead them out.
STEVE: Have the parents lead them out?
DEC: Yeah. Have the parents --
mothers lead them out.have the
STEVE: I'll tell you what. You've got a
list of the names, so what you could do isyou can put
-- I'll put them back on the phone with you or ask them
to get on the phone with you.
DEC: Well, we've got a lot of people in
there, right?
STEVE: Oh, yeah, there's probably a couple
hundred people left here.
DEC: Oh, a couple hundred? I was thinking
less than 100, Steve.
STEVE: Well, there's some names
given you yet.
DEC: Oh, wow. You want to give
names now?
STEVE: Well, there's a guy here
of Luke.
DEC: Luke?
STEVE: Yeah. He's probably the
important person, other than David, that'swe've never
me those
by the name
most
here.
DEC: First name -- is that his first name or
last name?
STEVE
DEC:
leg here?
STEVE
DEC:
STEVE
DEC:
Matthew -- Mark
STEVE
DEC:
STEVE14
That's his first and last name.
Are you -- Steve, are you yanking my
Yes, I am.
Oh, come on. This is serious business.
Well --
Luke and Luke, huh? Matthew ~- is
in there as well?
Pardon?
Matthew, Mark, and John.
Hey, I like that. That's pretty
good. I like that.
DEC: Well --
STEVE: No, I was going to ask you, do you
ever see -- have you ever seen this -- they used to get
us some of these videos here for the children. What
was the guy's - Jim Varney, Earnest Worhl?
DEC: Yeah, Vernon.
STEVE: Exactly.
DEC: It's like Vernon Howell.
STEVE: Pretty close.
DEC: Yeah.
STEVE: But, anyway, we've got some of those
in here and there was one that he talks about Luke all
the time.
DEC: Oh.
15
STEVE: And he was talking about him just --
that was their secret weapon.
DEC: was Luke?
STEVE: It was quite -- yeah. It was quite
hilarious.
DEC: I must have missed that one. I've seen
a few of them.
STEVE: You have, huh?
DEC: Got kind of --
STEVE: But the children always get a kick
out of him.
DEC: Sure. Some of the -- you know, he had
a series of commercials?
STEVE: That's -- exactly. When I was living
in Hawaii, that's when I first, in fact, saw him.
DEC: Yeah, yeah. Well --
STEVE: Hey, did --
DEC: - what are we, what are we doing in
getting people out of there?
STEVE: Pardon?
DEC: What are we doing in the way of getting
people out of there?
STEVE: Well, you know, I mean, any - I, I
was working with you on that for what, some weeks, and
after that no one seemed to show an interest. But just
lately again -- I don't know, it's hard to say. It
16
seems like maybe something could get going again, I
don't know.
DEC: Well, I hope so. But, you know --
STEVE: You know, I mean, see, the main
thing, though, Dec, I can't emphasize enough, is, you
know, I mean, we -- before that, the whole incident, I
mean, I can't emphasize it enough, people came here
because they wanted to know something of God, about God
and eternal life. And because of what they've seen,
and many of these people left, went back to scholars
world-wide, London, Manchester, Melbourne, Sydney, all
over the United States. They returned, they've gone
back and forth.
the name of Kathy,
number of
different
questions
came back
of peopleIn fact, David, like when he met one girl by
she went to rabbis, she went to a
priests, a bishop, she went to just loads of
scholars and started posing them all sorts of
that they were not able to answer. So she
to hear more and see if -- those are the kind
that are here right now. They're pretty
strong with the book. They've heard him. They've seen
what's been opened.
DEC: You know, Steve, I --
STEVE: The honest challenge has been there.
They've taken it. They have not been disappointed.
They've come back and, you know, they believe in the
17
God of that book.
DEC: I think, I think David has the
intelligence --
STEVE: And David has always made the honest
challenge, he always has.
DEC: -- and the facility to tell people what
they want to hear.
STEVE: He doesn't, he doesn't --
DEC: I think he can, you know, explain
things to them in such a way as that -- that's what
they want to hear and that's what they expect to hear.
And, and, you know, that's why he's got the following
he has. That doesn't mean he's always necessarily
correct, Steve.
STEVE: Should I go get -- do you want to try
-- maybe I can get him to -- maybe I can go run up and
get him.
DEC: I'm not going to listen to a Bible
study. I, I sat here night after night with John
Cox --
STEVE: Yeah, but --
DEC: -- by his side here at the phone --
STEVE: Oh, you sat with John Cox when David
gave him the studies, huh?
DEC: -- and I never could understand the
lengthy dialogue, primarily one-sided, that David --
O
18
STEVE: Dec says he heard David
with -- giving John Cox the study. Talking to someone
else.!
DEC:
STEVE
DEC:
STEVE
DEC:
to listen, yes.
STEVE
extent that you
DEC:
STEVEMany nights.
Many nights, huh?
Many, many nights.
Well, did you listen carefully?
I listened to the extent that I wanted
You listened to the extent, the
wanted to listen?
Yes, right.
Well, you know, that's, that's where
the pharisees -- even though they raised the dead and
he healed the sick and did many miracles, even after he
raised Lazarus, dead four days, they still chose not to
believe. They said it was a Beelzebub.
DEC:Yeah. Is that David in the background
or some of the other folks?
STEVE: some of the others.
DEC:Yeah. Well, what -~ Steve, what do you
fear about coming out? I know we've talked about that,
but I'd like to lessen your fears about coming out and
STEVE: Hey, you know, you know the guy in
Psalms 2, is that not the, is that not the Messiah that
19
reveals the seals or not? I mean, you remember how
when you were sharing with John Cox, you remember
sitting there, he went back and back to Psalms 2?
DEC: I might have dozed off a few of those
nights, Steve.
STEVE: But that's one you want to grab ahold
of and take a look a
…[truncated]