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TNCLUDED TN THE REPRODUCTION
OF THE FILE PAGES INCLUDED
THAT ARE BLURRED, LIGHT OR
OTHERWISE ETEETQULT TO READ
ARE THE RESULT OF THE CONDITION
AND OR COLOR OE THE ORIGINALS
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I I 1
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #13
3/2/93
PI I 2
1 Start Tape 13.!
2 HENRY: Sure.
3 DAVID: I don't know, or I don't know if what
4 phone still works. Our I
5 could only call us
6 HENRY:
7 DAVID:
8 minutes and ~-
9 HENRY:0
Well, I ca
well, call
Okay. Now
10 reading is. Because if it'sknow, I know with Jim, he
n__
me back in about 15
let me know what the
starting to, to go down
11 we're, we're going to have to work quick, okay? You
12 know, I'm going to get this tape to these radio
13 stations no matter what. I'm giving you my word that
14 that's what I'm going to do, and that's exactly what I
15 want to do. But I want to, I want to see that you get
16 the proper medical attention
17 DAVID:
18 HENRY:Okie doke.
There's to
19 following you that, you know
20 right thing done here.
21 DAVID:
22 HENRY:
23 DAVID:
24 HENRY:
25 about 15 minutes
DAVID:Okie doke.
Okay?
All right.
Okay. Wel
Okay. Couo many people that are
, they want to see the
l, I'll call you back in
ld you get one of the
nurses,
bit.Jeff?
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
best as you can
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
SCOTT
HENRY
SCOTT
HENRY
SCOTT
HENRY
SCOTT
HENRY
SCOTT
HENRY
SCOTT
[939]
SCOTT: We're going to let you speak to theI 3
Okay. And are --
And bring the blood
Okay. And, and continue to, to aspressure?
to finish to your work on the tape.
All right. will do
Okay. I'll call you back in a little
Thanks.
Okay. Bye.
* * *
Hello?
David?
No, this is Scott.
Scott, is David there?
Yes, he is.
May I speak to him,
Is this Henry?
Yes.
Okay. Hold on.
Thank you, Scott.
David, it's Henry.
nurse first, okay?please?
Unidentified
male voices in background not discernible.!
II I 4
HENRY: Oh, okay, good.
[9aP]
JILLIAN: Hello?
HENRY: Hello?
JILLIAN: Hello?
HENRY: Hello?
JILLIAN: You'd like to know Mr. Koresh's
feelings, his condition?
HENRY: Yes .
JILLIAN: Well, his blood pressure is to 85
over 40. His pulse is 60. Just a little irregular.
HENRY: Umhum.
JILLIAN: And his temperature is normal. His
color -- he's drinking all right. He's passing water
all right. And his condition is just stable.
HENRY: Okay. Now is he bleeding a lot? Is
he losing a lot of blood?
JILLIAN: Well, he was losing a lot. But now
it has subsided.
HENRY: Okay.
JILLIAN: Yes. Only when, when on movements.
HENRY: Okay. Do you know if any of the
major blood vessels were taken out?
JILLIAN: No. It doesn't seem likely.
HENRY: Okay. How about any vital organs?
JILLIAN: It doesn't seem as any vital organs
O I 5
have been damaged.
HENRY: Okay. Okay. You would recommend
that he get medical attention, would you not?
JILLIAN: Well, just a minute please. David?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: David.
JILLIAN: David, I highly recommend medical
attention. What indiscernible!. What would I say?
He's asking me whether you need medical attention.
Unidentified male voices in background not
discernible.! Yeah. Well, at the moment, we don't
think it's necessary.
HENRY: Okay. What time exactly did you take
the, the blood pressure?
JILLIAN: I've only just taken it about 3
minutes ago.
HENRY: Okay. And what is your name?
JILLIAN: My name is Jillian Matthew.
HENRY: Okay, Jillian. If you would, see 85
over 40 is a little bit, you know, is a little bit of a
concern. So I would like for you to take it like maybe
in another half hour or so.
JILLIAN: Um-hum. All right.
HENRY: Okay?
JILLIAN: Yes .
HENRY: Okay. May I speak to him?
JILLIAN: All right. You - like to speak to
you.
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID:O 6
Yeah.
You're holding up, huh?
Yeah. But she said it was a miracle.
Yeah. Yeah.
I got to -- like I said, you know,
you got a, got a strong will you got a strong will.
HENRY: Um-hum. Well, that's real good.
We're happy to hear that. I have a bit of a concern.
DAVID:
HENRY:Uh-huh.
Okay? And the concern that I have
is, you know, when these children are coming out they
are all convinced
their mamas again
gave me your word
DAVID:that they're not going to see their,
or their daddies. Okay? Now you
Now wait a minute. Now you're making
a statement, you're making a statement which is totally
contrary to everything those children with reasoning
powers have been taught. Scripturally you're denying
what they themselves have sit and heard day by day.
So I know point blank that, you know, you
have not asked them in regards to whether they're going
to see their parents again. Because the whole doctrine
revolves around, you know, Isaiah 49 where it says I
will save thy children referring to the covenants. And
you know, they, they know all of these or at least are
PO I 7
aware in conversationalwise children that age usually
do not have a conscience to discern or understand, you
know, the high points of doctrine or philosophy.
But no, the thing of it is that, you know,
every one of these mothers tell them well, I'll see you
soon. So I don't know why you're saying that, Henry.
HENRY: well, I'm not, I'm not questioning,
you know, your word. You know, I just --
DAVID: Well, I mean how you know, by, by
your statement it implies that you're just making a
statement. But the question lies is did you really ask
them?
HENRY: Well, see, for example. One of the
kids, you know, came out with a note that says that,
that his name is Joshua and that he's 7 years old and,
you know, it lists all the different people that, you
know, I guess are relatives of --
DAVID: Relatives. Correct.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: And we've, and we asked, we asked Jim
originally. We said look, Jim. Because we -- first of
all, our children don't eat pork.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Okay? Now whether you all uphold
that or not we, we cannot really guarantee that. But
come to find out instead of calling the - because I
O Q 8
understand it may take a day or two in some cases. But
instead of calling the present closest relative, you
all, you all have gone ahead and put them down at the
social place.
HENRY: Umhum. Um-hum.
DAVID: You know, and which, you know, like I
say that's kind of really neither here nor there at
this point in time. You know, I've trusted Jim. I, I
would think that he would be smart enough not to
consider these children, you know, worthy of a foster
home or something like that. Because that would
strictly violate the reasons why that, you know, most
of these women and stuff would be coming out in the
first place.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: I mean they don't want to be judged
or considered that they're unworthy of motherhood.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: Or you know, having their children,
you know, because of an incident such as we're in at
the present time.
HENRY: Uhhuh .
DAVID: I mean that's another thing of trust
again. Because like I say, maybe that's what you're
going to do. Maybe that's not what you're going to do.
You know, we don't know as of yet. Like I say, you
know, in my case I realize that, you know, I'll, I'll
never see my children again, you know? Because, you
know, I understand through, through many, many
observations and through much history research, you
know, how the government works and stuff. Like I say,
I will dance to the music that I, I have played to.
You see what I'm saying?
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: Okay. But the main thing is for me
to stand up in front of my Father, my God, and to
present a truth that he gave to me. Because there's
one reality that's above all realities. And that is
when the powers that control the universe, you know,
when those other worlds and those other beings out way
beyond, when they come and communicate to you, you
know.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: A lot of people have a very
Elizabethan ideal of God. You understand?
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: They think God's got a beard and
wears a robe and, and not a very smart, you know, it's
kind of old, you know, traditional old English or, you
know. God is very high-tech. God's got computer
systems and technology above and beyond what this
world's ever seen.
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID:I 10
Umhum.
I know Harry, you see.
Umhum.
In 1985 like I said I had a little
visit when I was in Israel. I've always been a sincere
guy like Randy will tell you, you know, if you ever
interview Randy. He knows I used to always tell him as
a kid that, you know, there's got to be a God. And all
my life I've, I've had this calling, this, you know,
these - anyway. But never mind.
But the thing comes down to this. There's a
test in latter days. And it's a test of human
intelligence. And all that which is human that is not
going to use its intelligence. I don't mean in regards
to bureaucratic law.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: You see, remember that two
individuals that are into bureaucratic control
HENRY: Um~hum.
DAVID: - can cause millions of people to go
to war.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: A hothead like Hussein and a hothead
like oh, my mind, let's see here. The Cuban guy,
Castro.
HENRY: UhhUh.
", , ll
DAVID:
can CEUSG many men
HENRY
0
0 DAVID
political thing
0
0 HENRY
0
O DAVID
another form of re
HENRY
DAVID:
sovereignty. But
HENRY:
DAVID:
not theology. It
Utopianistic views
HENRY:
DAVID:
come around to is
was confronted wit
this world, something
and communicated w
and showed you thi
See I used to stut
HENRY:
DAVID:
speech problem. YSee just their, their one decision
to go and lose their lives, right?
Right.
Well, see you might call that a
Um-hum.
But it really it's, it's, politics
ligion.
Umhum.
You see. It denies a deity, a
still it has its principles --
Um-hum.
- its philosophies and its - well
s I guess humanology sic!. Its
Umhum.
Okay. So the point that we finally
this. If you were in Israel and you
h, you know, something from beyond
that, you know, confronted you
ith you and told you what you must
ngs such as you have never dreamed.
ter all my life. I was a stutterer
Umhum.
I stammer all through school. Had a
ou know?
HENRY
DAVID
stuttered again
HENRY
DAVIDO 12
Uhhuh.
But after that event, I never
Uhhuh.
But like I say, we have to, we have
to realize that, that in today's world with such modern
technology everywhere we, we have to look at old truths
of the Bible --
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: - in a modern way.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: And the modern way is, is
computerized technology. Seven seals, what is it? You
know, data program. In other words, what mind of man
can be able to categorize all the testaments of the
prophets and put it together into seven categories.
See now that's technology.
HENRY
DAVID
wisdom.
HENRY
DAVIDUhhuh.
And the thing of it is it's called
Um-hum.
And scripture teaches us that if we
fail to be interested in this riddle, then the worlds
that are beyond our world are going to destroy all
those whose attitude have shown that they have not
chosen to increase and grow in wisdom.
1 HENRY
2 DAVID
3 allegorical.
4 HENRY
S DAVID
6 nonetheless, it
7 HENRY
8 DAVIDO 13
Um-hum.
See, the prophecies themselves may be
Umhum.
They may be just little stories. But
still is a test.
Um-hum.
You know, when you're, when you're a
9 little kid and they send you to a psychiatrist don't
10
ll
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25they put, tell you to put these little blocks in this
little block thing there? And you got to shape up,
match up the sizes?
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: Okay. Well, the same as this last
revelation. We have such pious and powerful men in the
world. Such power. Look at the Pontiff.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: You notice how powerful that
religious man is?
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: I mean no one questions the, the
history and origin of the papacy.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: I mean it killed millions. The
Jesuit priesthood for those who went against its
infallible laws. The eucharist, the catechism. All
l
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
l4
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25I I 14
the, all the thousands and thousands of newborn babes
they found in the catacombs, you know, and under the,
the chapels and stuff that they put in the lime pits.
Of course, we always thought that the virgin and the
priest never did anything, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: Yeah, but we find out later that
there evil things were being done under a cloak.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: And Martin Luther rose up against it.
And how did he overthrow that system? with truth.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: A Bible truth.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: So today we, we have a truth, a Bible
truth. But it's not going to overthrow just the
papacy.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: It's going to, you know, bring all
the world into a valley of decision. People are going
to have to hear it. They're going to have to say to
themselves well, you know, that's right. That is
right. That is exactly what is being said in harmony.
And that, that does agree.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: Then they're going to wonder, well, I
O I 15
wonder who this guy really is?
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: Well, the thing of it is is that I'm
going to let you in on a secret
HENRY: Okay.about Christ, okay?
DAVID: Anyone that God chooses to place his
power and spirit in no matter to what degree that
spirit is all have the same spirit of the one and only
living God.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: So what I'm saying is I'm saying that
the spirit of Elijah is no more different than the
spirit of Moses or the spirit of Daniel or the spirit
of Hosea. Because these men asmen can do nothing of
themselves. Because all of these prophets had the
spirits of Christ.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: S0 Christ did
except he came in the person of
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: And the power
these men and enlightened thesenot come in person
his messengers.
of heaven strengthened
men and gave these men
gifts of knowledge and understanding to speak in behalf
of Christ.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: which is the true living God, the
O O 1.
word of God. Otherwise, you know, you can't put 2
ounces of faith in man. It's impossible.
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVIDUmhum.
So anyway.
Okay.
Okay. Let me get back to this tape.
And what was, what was the question again? You was
wanting, you was wanting to know something else.
HENRY: Well, one of the things that, that we
have a concern about, of course, is the kids. We're
hoping and we're, we're certain that we want them to be
reunited with their families. We can count on that.
DAVID: Yeah, well, we realize also, and I
was discussing it with some of the people here that,
that, you know, once we go out there's going to be, you
know -- now we realize our butts are in trouble. There
is some extensive research that has to be done, you
know. Someone is responsible for the deceasement sic!
of law enforcement officers.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: You know. I'm, I'm hopefully they
say on the news that it shows clearly in regards to
when the officers first approached it shows, you know,
who fired first. Because I was standing right there in
the door. And I know, you know, that no fire came from
our side first.
I I 17
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: You see. But the thing of it is is
that my only hope would be for that is that, is that
those, those cameras actually were zooming in enough on
that front door.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: To show just exactly. Of course,
what I heard one guy comment was is that, you know,
somebody saw somebody there with a firearm. And so
once they saw the firearm that, that's a sign to go
after it, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: Isn't that, isn't that a ATF rule or
law? I mean if, if you all walked into a place, and a
guy's standing there with a gun, you know, I mean
that's, that's what you got to do. You got to draw
out, right?
HENRY: Well --
DAVID: So that's probably where our problem
came from.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: But you know, I had my head and part
of my body sticking out that door. I was actually
standing in the door there and I, I waved out. And
that's probably all on film too. And says, you know,
get out of here. There's women and children. Let's
O I 18
talk. Let's go. Get out. You know so --
HENRY: Um~hum.
DAVID: - you know I hope they --
HENRY: Well, one of the things that
concerned us was that one of the mothers said to one of
the kids I'll see you on the other side. So you know,
we were, we just wanted to make sure --
DAVID: Well, now remember too that, that
this was probably stated before we got this previous
arrangement going. Like I said before, nobody wants to
die.
Now but here's the thing. We cannot trust
you people. Nobody that has really had any experience
with the federal government can 100 percent trust the
federal government. Because like even with yourself or
with Jim, we see that you guys are not the boss. You
know, and the thing of it is is that there's just too
many voices and too much influence.
You know, I've ~- let me back up and say one
thing. I've been very pleased thus far at how, you
know, Jim and yourself have, you know, guaranteed that
they haven't come in and punched us out yet.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: You see. I'm I respect that very
much. I, I appreciate that. You know, I thank God for
that that, you know, under the circumstances that you
O I .9
have borne with me.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: You know. So this gives the
confidence, you know. Because this is a great nation,
America, and it should be, you know, more considerate
and more intelligent in regards to these things.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: Okay. So now this gives me more
liberty to entrust myself in the hands of this system,
you know, for you guys to be able to help drive this
situation out of the mud. You know, this is like a
four~wheeling truck. And we're all in it and we're
stuck. You know, and we all have to drive this thing
out.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: And that's what I'm saying. I'm
saying if you guys play right we're going to play
right.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: I do not believe that how this got
started was right. But I was not going to, you know,
allow after all the things have been said about me
allow myself to just stand back and sit back and allow
the system to come in and, you know, push, push me
around. I can't do that.
HENRY: Um-hum.
O Q 2.
DAVID: You see, I cannot have the message of
truth to be stifled that, that easy.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: But you know, you guys, you and Jim
have been very, very considerate, very kind. Not at
all like, you know, the aftermath of there's,
there's a BATF video out on you guys. It's called
"Breaking the Law in the Name of the Law."
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: I'm sure you've seen that. Of
course, like I say, you know, it's, it's not meant to
ultimately degradate you. But it's, it just simply
shows that people are human, okay?
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: On both sides. So anyway. I guess
I've said enough. And no. You, you tell the children
that, you know, we've been letting them out little by
little to see what you all's reaction was going to be.
Because they've been saying on the radio all the time
that you all are fixing to hit us tonight. You know.
HENRY: Well, no, we --
DAVID: And Jim's been telling me that's not
true.
HENRY: We've never had that plan. You know,
we
DAVID: So I've, I've been balancing it out
I U 21
on both sides.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Because like I say I have to stand in
a position to where if you do hit us tonight --
HENRY: NO.
DAVID: you're going to, you're going to
be guilty of killing little children.
HENRY: Exactly.
DAVID: And the thing of it is is that that's
why in the beginning I made it very plain -- I stood in
the door there, you know. And that's not very fun with
a bunch of professionals, you know, coming at you. And
I tried to tell them, holler best I can let's talk
about this. I tried to talk to Robert Gonzales first,
you know.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: And you know. I saw him on news
here. But I think it's very cheesy in his behalf,
very, very cowardish sic! to be staying out of the
light now. Because he could have and you tell him
this. He could have stopped all of this.
HENRY
DAVID:
eating him up.
HENRY
DAVIDYou know, his conscience is probably
Um-hum.
So anyway.
" 22
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Okay. I'm sorry. So --
HENRY: That's okay. I just want -- yeah, I
just want to feel real good about this. And I want to
feel good that everybody is going to be coming out
alive.
DAVID: well, that's what we want.
HENRY: Okay. Including you.
DAVID: Oh, I'm, I'm still here.
HENRY: Okay. Nobody's going to commit
suicide.
DAVID: No. I don't think anyone's going to
commit suicide.
HENRY: Nobody's going to be coming out with
guns so that somebody can shoot at them.
DAVID: Nobody's going to be coming out
playing John Wayne.
HENRY: Okay. Well --
DAVID: I mean have -- I mean are we letting
our children out? I mean, you know, are the children
gone do the children look like they've been abused
or neglected?
HENRY: NO. N0.
DAVID: Okay. So do they act abnormal except
the one child because it was born that way. It was --
HENRY: Um-hum.
O U 23
DAVID: - a medical misinterpretation. You
know, the doctor didn't quite diagnose something
right --
HENRY: Um-hum. Um-hum.
DAVID: - and it affected the child. But
are you happy with the children so far?
HENRY: Yes. Yes.
DAVID: Do they look like they're raised
strange, abnormal?
HENRY: No. No. They look just fine. I
just, you know, because of your concern and because
everybody's concerned that and, and primarily your
concern that you not be considered just another cult
leader. You know, and because of the sincerity that
you've expressed during our negotiations, you know, I
believe in, in the things that you've said. I believe
that when you've given me your word, you know, you've,
you've stuck to your word. And I want to feel good
about, about this situation. And I'm holding you to
your word.
DAVID: well, just like Jim said that. And,
and like I say in our past experience together we've
seen it's been more shadowy on your side than it's been
on mine.
HENRY: I understand.
DAVID: I mean I've kept - just like the
O Q 2.
other night Jim told me not to deal with anybody else
but him. And we made an --
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: - an agreement. And then, you know,
another guy came along. And, and then all of a sudden
da, da, da, da, da. You know, he - we, we -~ he was
very forceful and very strong. And when someone's
going to play forceful and strong to me, then I'm going
to play forceful and strong back.
HENRY: That makes sense.
DAVID: You see, but if someone's going to
sit down and say look, I'm willing to give you, you
know, 50 percent of the chips, and I'll take 50 percent
of the chips, and we'll play this card game fair.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: Then you know, when the chips are all
on your side then I'll, I'll fold up. You know, it's a
fair game.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: And that's, that's the way, that's
the way I've always been. It's the way I've always
taught the doctrine that was given to me.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: And this is the way the truth has to
be.
HENRY: Okay. One of the things that I, you
. ' 25
know, that I had a concern about, and you don't have to
give me the specifics on this. But you know, when
we've talked about the number of children that are
within the compound, we've never had a real good idea.
And you don't need to tell me that. But I feel --
DAVID: well, ask the children that are
there, you know. Of course, like I say they don't
probably know either. But just ask them if there's a
lot more children. That's all you have to do.
HENRY: Yes. But that - I'm -- that's,
that's not the point here. And, and the point is I
just want you to feel comfortable, you know. In terms
of if I ask you something I'm, you know, I'm asking you
man to man. And if you say this or that or the other,
that's fine. Or if you say look, I don't want to tell
you for this reason that's fine. I can accept that --
DAVID: Right.
HENRY: That's --
DAVID: You're being very courteous. But
when it really comes down to it, you're talking to me
agent to criminal. That's what we're talking here,
okay?
HENRY: No. I'm not talking to you agent to
criminal.
DAVID: No. But realistically that's what it
is.
I U 26
HENRY: What I'm -
DAVID: I have violated in all appearances
the codes of the United States of America's law.
That's why - now your job is to, to deal with my mind
and to try in your best ability to come to some
feasible conclusion of how we can settle or resolve our
problems or differences. Now because of this
situation, you know, I am the one in trouble, you're
not. Okay.
Now your courtesy I'm being very responsive
to, because I realize I am in trouble, and I realize
what the future holds for me even when I give myself up
to you. You know, I don't know to what degree is going
on my body right now, but nonetheless, I don't think I
have to really worry too much about that because, you
know, when I give myself over to you I still have to
keep my mind on God. Because, you know, whatever I
receive from the judicial system of America, you know,
that's what I receive.
HENRY: Okay. But --
DAVID: And if God doesn't deliver me out of
it then that's what I get.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: And it's to the Lord's great wishes.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: But like I say the point is this.
O I 2,
Everybody's going to know the importance of the seals
then, aren't they?
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRYExactly.
Thanks to you.
Well --
And that's very commendable.
And thanks to you, too. But I want
you to - I don't want you to look at me as just
somebody that's looking to you as a criminal. I'm
looking to, to ensure as best as I can that you and
everybody that's within the compound gets out alive.
And that these --
DAVID: Right.
HENRY: -- children have an opportunity and
that your mission and your cause because you're so
devoted to it if you tell me look, this is what I want
to do to guarantee all of these people's lives, then
I'm with you. I'll work with you as hard as I can.
DAVID: Right. Well, that's what, that's
what I was telling Jim earlier. I was telling look,
Jim, I've got a plan.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: And the first thing I told him was is
this. I said Jim, I said look. I've been hit, and I
get - I've been getting weak. I says I'll tell you
what. You let me just lay here and let me die. I says
O I 2.
and give these people time to think.
HENRY
DAVID:
HENRY
DAVIDUmhum.
Because I won't influence them.
Right. I remember that.
And I says and once I'm dead, then
they're going to be sitting around here, and they're
going to be thinking, you see, and I'll be gone. There
will be no more influence. And that way they can make
decisions on their own. See, that's what I was first
telling Jim.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: You know. And Jim says no, no, no.
Of course, the other option is, is that if, if they
don't give us time for the people to make these
decisions, you know, then it's always going to stay in
the light that well, as long as I'm the leader they're
going to do what I say. But that's not the way this
program is operated.
HENRY: UhhUh.
DAVID: That's the way it appears, you know.
And it's true on that tape I did scream and I did call
some people some stupid idiots. But if you do the
whole story --
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: -- of what somebody had done.
HENRY: Um-hum.
O I 29
DAVID: You don't mingle this truth with
people that do perverse sins.
HENRY
DAVIDUm-hum.
Now there's a reason why somebody
just like Christ - anyway, Christ called the disciples
fools, didn't he?
HENRY
DAVIDUm-hum.
Not that he was hating them, but
because they had done some foolish things.
HENRY: Exactly.
DAVID: But the point is this. What I need
to do now is I need to buckle down and I need to, you
know, I had some,
here. And --
HENRY
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID:
and start doing
HENRY
DAVIDjust a little bit of chicken soup
Okay. Have you had any?
Oh, yeah. I had a little bit and --
Okay.
And I need to readjust myself here
this tape.
Okay.
I've been going through these
different tape machines. The, the big tape machine we,
we have some trouble with, because it uses a AKG
phantom powered mike.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: And we haven't been able to find it.
| I so
And the guys are kind of worried about turning on the
lights in the building in case, you know, somebody --
you know how it is. You know?
HENRY: If you tell me that you're going to
turn the lights on, you can go ahead and turn the
lights on. Nothing's going to happen. You know.
DAVID: Yeah, because --
HENRY: I can advise the people that the
lights are going to go on because we're working on
something.
DAVID: Yeah .
HENRY: And it's not going to be a problem.
DAVID: Well, what happened was that we went
ahead and we got a couple of, you know, of higher
quality handheld cassettes. And I already know
HENRY: Oh, okay.
DAVID: - it's got a Dolby on it. And as
long as we have the Dolby then the equalization is
going to be audible enough to where they can remix it
at the studio and play it live.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: You know, I am a musician you know.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: So anyway, okay. Well, then I'll,
I'll get to this. Then we'll call you, or you'll call
me at around 6 o'clock then, right?
this?
done.HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
RITA:
HENRY
RITA:
HENRY
RITA:
HENRY
RITA:
HENRY
RITA:
HENRY
[9aP]
DAVID:
HENRY
DAVID:
HENRY
DAVIDC 31
Probably around 5 o'clock.
Okie doke.
Okay?
Okay. I'll talk
I'll talk to you
Bye.
Bye-bye.
it tk k
Hello?
Hello. This is Henry Garcia. who 1S
This is Rita.
I'm sorry?
Rita.
Rita?
Uhhuh.
Is David around?to you later then.
then.
Yes, he is. One moment, please.
Thank you, Rita.
Oh, wait.
I'm sorry?
Had earplugs in.
How you doing?
Oh, we're, we're getting this thing
O I .2
HENRY:
DAVID:
done by 6 o'clock
HENRY:Okay. Great. How far along are you?
I should, I should have it completely
Okay. How's your -- did anybody take
your blood pressure again?
DAVID:
supposed to, to
did she take my
HENRY:
DAVID:
I'm sorry. I got
she -- oh, that's
went to bed.
HENRY:
DAVID:The, the -- she said the doctor was
call up again. I don't remember. Did,
blood pressure again?
Well, I asked her to.
Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's right.
my mind involved on this -- where did
-- where did she go? I guess she
Oh, okay.
Could you, could you check down there
and see what she said? Stable?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Stable, yes.
DAVID:
stable.
HENRY:
was before.
DAVID:What's that? Oh, stable. She said
Okay. So it's pretty much what it
It was pretty much where it was
before? Unidentified voice in background not
discernible.! Okay. Yeah.
HENRY: What --
DAVID: She said yeah.
I I 33
HENRY: What about your temperature?
DAVID: We didn't, we didn't check my
temperature. It's pretty chilly here, though. I
don't, I don't --
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
SCOTT
DAVID:
SCOTT
DAVIDOkay.
Yeah.
What about your color, skin color?
Hey, Scott, what do I look like?
You look fine.
I don't look pale or anything?
NO.
Can you see? It's kind of dark in
here. Oh, don't make me laugh. Let's see. Well, I,
you know, like I say she didn't tell me that, you know,
what my skin color looks like.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: I look at my arm. It don't look too
bad.
HENRY: Okay. And, and your breathing is
normal?
DAVID: Well, I mean -- well, I can't take
very deep breaths because
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: - you know, it gets down into the
area that kind of very sensitive.
HENRY: Okay.
O Q 3.
DAVID: Okay? So okay now. Matter of fact,
I was recording when the phone rang, so I have to back
up a bit and kind of delete that out. Also I had, you
know, a couple or three babies crying. I had to re-
edit over that too.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: So you know it's - don't want to get
too much, I don't want to get that in the tape.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Okay?
HENRY: You mentioned that it's a little bit
colder, that you're a little bit cold.
DAVID: Well, all our windows are gone right
now.
HENRY: Oh, okay. But you don't feel like
your, like your skin is clammy or anything like that.
DAVID: No. It's -- I'm under, I've got
about, about three or four blankets on me.
HENRY: Oh, okay.
DAVID: From my, basically from my chest
down. And plus I got that big sheet tied in a knot
and, you know, around the wounded areas.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: SO
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: What, what happened?
9 U 35
HENRY: No, I was clearing my throat.
DAVID: That was a, was a gunshot? What?
Unidentified voices in background not discernible.!
HENRY: NO, I was --
DAVID: Oh, something dropped. Okay.
HENRY: Oh, okay. We want to ensure, you
know, that, that you get what, what we say that, that
you're going to get and that we get what, what you say
we're going to get so --
DAVID: Right.
HENRY: Could we have you dictate or, or just
give us a preamble indicating what you hope is going to
happen with the tape and, and then say that --
DAVID: Well, I can put that on the tape too
if you want.
HENRY: Okay. And then --
DAVID: Okay. And that way everybody hear
it.
HENRY: Okay, good. And then say that, that
after the, after the, after you finish the tape that,
that we've agreed, you know, to have the --
DAVID: Everybody comes out.
HENRY: Yes. And then that you agree that
everybody's going to come out.
DAVID: Right.
HENRY: Okay. Now --
I U 3.
DAVID: But you're going to - like I say
when, when you bring the guys up here remember - I
know, I know they're paramedics. I know they're really
good. But like I say I, I don't I haven't taken no,
no alcohol, no drugs, no aspirin. Nothing. You know,
I don't, I don't really believe in that unless it's
extreme emergency and, and it's just this state that
I'm in right now under the conditions I haven't taken
any of those things.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: So I mean I've been sitting in this
one position and it's everything I, I can do just to,
to like every once in a while I got to like just move
my legs like an inch this way, inch that way. My, my
toe bone is like groaning!. I, I can't describe it.
It's, it's like it's numb.
HENRY: Now are you perspiring?
DAVID: No, I'm not perspiring.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: No, because it's like I say. Rita,
how cold do you think it is right now? Unidentified
voices in background not discernible.!
HENRY: See, one of the things is if with all
the blankets that you have you should be perspiring a
little bit under the blankets, you know?
DAVID: Well, no, I, I -- as far as the
D O 3,
blankets are concerned it's I just, I feel warm.
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID:Okay.
And I'm not perspiring.
Okay.
And besides my, from my around my
waist and my, my rear end and my tailbone all that's,
it's basically numb except for the pain of trying to
move. And then, you know, the gut's kind of numb.
HENRY:
DAVID:
ITIOVGS .
HENRY:
DAVID:Um-hum.
Except if I try to make any immediate
Umhum.
So you know, it's just -- now as far
as my hands and all that I can feel that they're cold.
I have the wound on my left hand which the bullet,you
know, kind of chopped me in the left of my wrist.
HENRY:
DAVID:
just like
HENRY:
DAVID:
let - the bullet
gash right out ofUm-hum.
And my thumb is dead. You know, it's
it don't, it's not there.
Uh-huh.
Of course, I'm looking now I, I
just took a clean, just a real clean
it. You know, just like it's
weird. Just, just passed right, just took skin and
it's neat and everything just right out. So I, I just
left it kind of open, you know. And it didn't --
I l 38
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID:
whole left side
finally stopped bleeding then it --
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID:
there, you know?
HENRY: Yeah. But you stillAnd it bled for a long time. My, my
of my shirt's all blooded. But it
-- it's just like a big old crevice
have a good
mental outlook. You can concentrate and --
DAVID: Oh, yeah. This, this truth is
everything. I mean --
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Like I say, when you
you'll realize that --
HENRY: How, how much of the
going?
DAVID: Oh, we've got, we've
half of it.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Like I said I've hadhear this tape
tape do you have
got more than
-- first of all,
we had trouble getting the tape machine going. You
know how it is. And then I've, I'm trying to keep the
thing right up to my mouth.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: We had to -- we're using a high bias
tape. But we had to go down to like a more of a mid-
I O 3.
range compact Panasonic.
HENRY:
DAVID:Okay.
which the heads are good heads on it.
You know, it still, it can be quite legible for, you
know, a radio.
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
just so I can see
DAVID:
[9aP]
DAVID:
voice is but --
HENRY:
DAVID:
hear that?Okay.
Of course, they can also mix it too.
Um-hum. Can you play a little bit
how it sounds?
Yeah, let me back up here.
Sounds a little higher than what my
Okay.
This is a small speaker. Can you
Playing following from tape.!
...last living disciples on the Isle of
Patmos being a prisoner for the word of God and for the
testimony of Jesus Christ which no doubt are the things
Jesus has to say which would probably be quite
controversial to the things that the Pharisees and
Sanhedrin of the day had to say we're sure. He being
on this Isle of Patmos, a prisoner on a Lord's day had
a vision. And it states in this vision we should all
be familiar with it hopefully or get familiar with it.
I I .0
He has a messenger, the angel of the Lord come to him
who identifies himself as the spirit. And he is told
to write the seven churches of Asia which we do see
clearly in the scriptures...
HENRY: David ?
DAVID: Yeah.
HENRY: That sounds pretty good.
DAVID: Like I say it's the, the way, you
know, if -- you'll hear between it kind of breaths and
pushes.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: And I tried to make that, you know,
like I say I tried to make it as clear as possible.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: So you know, that's, that's why I
was, you know. But what I did was is if we got a
couple of the guys and they kind of, they kind of
pulled me up a bit, we put the - what do you call this
cushion, Scott?
SCOTT: It's a foam indiscernible.!
DAVID: A foam, yeah. To where I could kind
of sit up a little bit. And I'm kind of about at a 45
degree - I don't know any -- anyway so I just like
tried to take a short breath and just belt it out as
best I can.
HENRY: Okay.
O O .1
DAVID: So like I say, we'll go and finish
this up and, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
HENRY: Okay. Let me ask you this. We want
to work out the actual what exactly we're going to do
with in terms of the tape, you know, as I said, you
know, what we'd like to do is we'd like to go ahead
and, and play it, okay? Now --
DAVID: well, what we -- well, this morning
when we send, we send two more children out with you?
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: They're going to bring the tape with
them, okay?
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: And then, you know, we can play it.
And when everything's done like you promised, then what
we're going to do is, is the, the other children and
the women will come out first. Then you know, we'll go
ahead and like - well, see the, the fog's gone now,
okay?
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: And of course, I guess you -- well,
what's the visibility out there now, Scott?
SCOTT: Indiscernible.!
DAVID: Okay. For the concern that the, of
the, you all's safety.
HENRY: Um-hum.
I I .2
DAVID: I know you don't want a big crowd
coming out all at once.
HENRY: NO.
DAVID: And so maybe, you know, have them
like go out, you know, because you know, mothers and
the remaining children, you know, you know, it's kind
of cold. S0 you know, they are going to have to have
coats on. But --
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: I just want you to see that they're
not bearing any arms.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: And like I say, they can go out that
way. Because some like have two children. Some have
three children.
HENRY: okay.
DAVID: You know. And then, you know, I'll
space them at a long enough distance to where and you
can see there's a steady line of them. And --
HENRY: okay.
DAVID: I'll have them walk up to the, to
the front of the property there at the gate. Then the
guys will come out, and I'll have them hold their hands
up.
HENRY: Okay. And single file.
DAVID: And okay. Like -- yeah, single
1
i
Ifile. Not two at
HENRY:
DAVID:
you have like --
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:Q .3
a time.
Um-hum.
Their hands up. And, and -- well, do
We can turn --
warm vehicles and stuff like that?
What we'll do is we'll, we'll turn on
the lights, and they can walk towards the lights. And
then we'll have people, you know, ready to, to assist
them once they get to, to the cars.
DAVID: All right. Now when's this, now
when's this tape going to be played again?
HENRY: As soon as you, as soon as you send
it out we're going to, you know. Now do you want to
start sending some of the people out with the tape and
we get --
DAVID:
children thing.
HENRY:
DAVID:
know, decide what
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
can so we can get
DAVID:Like I said, let's still do the
Okay.
Because you said I could also, you
time that I want this thing played.
Well, we --
I do --
we want to play it as soon as we
everybody out.
Well, the thing of it is though is
7
iI I 4,
that I want to make sure it's played during prime time.
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
will do that.
DAVID:
we --
HENRY:Well, we --
So people can hear it.
-- we can do that. And absolutely we
Okay then. All right then. But
But we want, but we want, we want to
start getting this thing, you know, we want to try to
bring this --
DAVID:
HENRY:I'm aware. I realize.
Okay. So as soon as -- what we'd
like to do is we'd like to get everybody out as soon as
possible. So --
DAVID:
you're, you know,
of me --
HENRY:
DAVID:Well, now see there again is where
you're, you're coming up over on top
I'm not -- no.
- and you're saying, you're saying
all right now, Dave. We're going to do this, this and
this. But we want you to, to, you know, in other
words, you know, this is like commercialization. It's
like well, I paid
paid $2 wholesale
this thing to you
get for yours. I$3 wholesale for this thing. And you
for that thing. And I want to sell
at more profit than what I want to
mean --
I I 45
HENRY: No. I want this to, I want --
DAVID: -- what I'm, what I'm saying is, is
that - like today they were broadcasting all over TV.
And since the FBI is involved, you know, when they cut
our lines. But they started saying all kinds of things
on the radio that was not true. You know. And the
deal of it was --
End Tape 13.!
Q O 1
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #14
3/2/93
[I I I 2
start Tape 14!
JIM: -- daughter. How old is she?
RACHEL: She's 5. They're both ready to have
a birthday pretty soon.
JIM: Oh, that's great. That's great. Star
and Cyrus. Okay.
RACHEL: Hold on a second.
JIM: Okay.
[9aP]
RACHEL: Okay. I'm back.
JIM: Hey, listen. Let me tell you the rest
of this way this thing's going to go so you're clued
in. You know, I can tell David later. But what we're
going to do later is we're going to get - we've got
buses, okay?
highway.RACHEL: Umhum.
JIM: We've got like four buses out on the
RACHEL: Umhum.
JIM: And we're going to take those buses and
some of these, you know, bulletproof vehicles and move
them all together up so you, you can walk to them.
broadcastRACHEL: And when are you going to do that?
JIM: Well, not now. Not until after the
RACHEL: Okay.
92
l
92JIM: Or maybe during the broadcast. But
just -- I want to let you know that's going to happen.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: You know --
RACHEL: How many buses again?
JIM: I think we got four.
RACHEL: Four buses?
JIM: We're not sure about that. I mean
we're just, you know, trying to get the number of
people. From the number of people you just gave us,
we're trying to work out, you know, what size bus, how
many seats, you know.
RACHEL: And where are they going to move
them to? In front of the gate or --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We're not sure
exactly. But they just have to go over to the buses.
RACHEL: -- down the road in front of our
property or where?
JIM: Yeah. No, they won't be on your
property.
RACHEL: Somebody sitting in front of the
property on the road there or --
JIM: Unidentified male voice in background
not discernible.! Well, what they'll probably be is a
little bit away. Like you'll come out your driveway
onto Double E Ranch Road.
I O 4
RACHEL: Umhum.
JIM: And then you'll, you'll walk left a
little while. Just walk to where you see them. You'll
see them as soon as you turn. But we're just going to
put them down the road a little bit.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: Okay? That's just for your safety, our
safety.
RACHEL: okay.
JIM: And you just can walk right to where
those buses are.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: I'd say how far down the Double E Road?
RACHEL: Uh-huh.
JIM: Probably you know, about as, little
longer than your driveway. It's not going to be that
bad.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: You know. That's a hard road anyway
so.
RACHEL: Yeah.
JIM: I think that will be the, the best way
to do it.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: If we try to do it with shuttling cars,
it's just too many folks.
C I 5
RACHEL: It's - yeah.
JIM: And it takes too long and --
RACHEL: Yeah, it does.
JIM: You know, between you and me, I mean
we'd, we'd like to do it as soon as we can for David.
RACHEL: Right.
JIM: And then also if we do it some other
technique, we get as many folks in the daylight, you
know. Of course, you guys we trust you. And I think
by now you trust that we're --
RACHEL: Yes.
JIM: - we just want to get everybody out of
there.
RACHEL: Yeah. We appreciate what you're
doing for us. My son wants to talk to you.
JIM: Okay, sure. Put him on.
RACHEL: Okay.
CYRUS: Hi.
JIM: Cyrus?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: This is Jim. How are you?
CYRUS: Fine.
JIM: Listen, you're going to come out of
there soon, aren't you, with your mom?
CYRUS: What?
JIM: You're - how you doing?
92
II O 6
CYRUS: Fine.
JIM: Yeah. What are you playing in there?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: What are you doing? Tell me what
you're doing.
CYRUS: Nothing much.
JIM: Nothing much? Don't you have a game
you can play? Are you watching TV?
CYRUS: No.
JIM: No? You playing with your brothers and
sisters maybe, huh?
CYRUS: We don't have a movie.
JIM: You don't? Do you have your brothers
and sisters with you?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: Is Star there with you?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: Yeah. Is she, she playing with you?
What's your favorite thing to do? Huh? What's your --
foodCYRUS: I don't know.
JIM: What's your very favorite thing to eat?
CYRUS: Healthy fruit. Healthy, healthy
JIM: Healthy food?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: That's real good, healthy food. You're
I I 7
going to be big and strong when you grow up. You like
ice cream?
CYRUS: What?
JIM: Do you like to eat ice cream?
CYRUS: Yeah, sometimes. Once in a while.
JIM: Once in a while you like ice cream.
CYRUS: But we don't eat pig.
JIM: You don't eat pig?
CYRUS: No. It's not good for you.
JIM: It's not good for you. That's right.
Yeah. Yeah. You're smart. You're smart. How old are
you?
not olderCYRUS: Seven.
JIM: Seven. Oh, you must - you sure you're
than that? You sound pretty smart for that.
CYRUS: I know I'm 7.
JIM: Oh, you're 7, yeah. Yeah. Well,
that's great. So what else do you like? Tell me
something else you like. Do you like horses?
CYRUS: What?
JIM: You like horses?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: Cowboys?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: Yeah. Uhhuh. What else? Spaceships?
CYRUS: Yeah, I love spaceships.
l JIM:
2 those guys that
3 go to the moon?
4 CYRUS: Yeah.
5 JIM:
6 grow up?
7 CYRUS: Yeah.
8 JIM:
9 fun, wouldn't it?
l0
11 though.
12 JIM: NO. Me
13
14
l5
l6
17
18
l9 DAVID: LOOk,
20 little bit of confusion.
21 out, all right?
22 JIM: Okay.
23 DAVID: So jus
24 before the armored truck
25 front?
JIM: Okay.You love spaceships.
get shot to the moon,
You want to be one of
Yeah? An astronaut?You like to see
those astronauts
those when you
That would be
CYRUS: I wouldn't want to be one of them
neither. That's kind of far
away to go in those things, isn't it?
RACHEL: Daddy wants the phone.
CYRUS: My dad wants to talk to you.
JIM: Okay. Hello?
DAVID: Hey, Jim?
JIM: Hey, David.
let me -- there seems to be a
I need to straighten this
t all I'm saying is, is that
, you know, comes up to the
here know
say theyO O 9
DAVID: Let me make sure that all the guys
it. Okay?
JIM: Okay. You got it. Okay --
DAVID: Because you know, you know, like I
re, you know they're, they're jittery a little
bit, you know. So let me just make sure they all know
about it,
them thisall right?
JIM: Yeah. It's not coming -- just tell
. It's got no gun on it. It's not coming in
the driveway.
explain s
again.
before th
can --DAVID: Right. Well, we're, we're going to
O __
JIM: Just going to drop the stretcher.
DAVID: Okay. So talk to my little boy
JIM: Yeah, okay.
DAVID: I just want to make sure, you know,
ey come that we, we have --
JIM: Yeah, that --
DAVID: -- another 10 minutes or so so we
JIM: Yeah, that's real smart.
DAVID: -- send it around.
JIM: That's real smart.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Let me talk to Cyrus.
U O .0
DAVID: Thanks. Unidentified voices in
background not discernible.!
JIM: He's going to go around telling
everybody. Cyrus?
[QEP]
RACHEL: Hello?
JIM: Rachel?
RACHEL: Oh, I just want to make sure I
didn't get -- wait a minute.
JIM: You okay? How's that phone doing?
RACHEL: Yeah. It's, it's just that we're
kind of cramped up around here so --
JIM: Yeah.
RACHEL: -- sometimes it gets unhooked.
JIM: Yeah.
RACHEL: Now you nobody seems to be aware
that I have three children.
JIM: Oh. Cyrus, Star, and what's the other
one?
RACHEL: Bobbie.
JIM: Bobbie. Okay. How old is Bobbie?
RACHEL: She is - March. She's 14 months
old.
JIM: Fourteen months. Okay. Good. That's
great. Okay. Well, you'll have to just carry her you
know.
Q I ll
RACHEL : Umhum .
JIM: You just take them. You just tell the
mothers with the babies to just bring, take, carry them
themselves.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: And if you have, you know, some that
have two or small ones they, the other mothers can
help.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: And we'll try to arrange some kind of
car seat if we can.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: But Cyrus said he likes astronauts.
RACHEL: Oh, yeah. He yeah, he does.
JIM: That's neat.
RACHEL: Okay. He wanted to talk to you some
more.
JIM: Okay. Okay.
CYRUS: I'm here again.
JIM: Hey. What are you going to tell me
about those astronauts?
CYRUS: What?
JIM: What are you going to tell me about
those astronauts?
CYRUS: I don't know about them.
JIM: You don't?
Q I .2
CYRUS: No. I only have books, books of
them.
JIM: You do?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: Do you have good pictures?
CYRUS: About the planets.
JIM: About the planets. Yeah.
CYRUS: Yeah. And outer space.
JIM: Oh, that's neat. You can get to see
those stars at night from your house?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: You can? Do can you see them real
good?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: Yeah. Did you ever see the moon?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: You did? Yeah. Okay.
CYRUS: Where are you at?
JIM: I'm at -- I'm over here at the airport.
CYRUS: Oh.
JIM: Yeah. It's about 8 miles from you.
CYRUS: How could I be able to go to you, see
you?
JIM: Well, you'll get to see us later.
Later on. You're going to come out later on. That's
what David and Rachel told me.
later on
today?U I 1.
CYRUS: You'll come out what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You'll come out
. He wants to know --
JIM: Yeah. Yeah. Cyrus?
CYRUS: Yeah?
JIM: Yeah. I'll come out later on. You --
CYRUS: Oh.
JIM: Okay?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: Yeah. But did you have your lunch
CYRUS: No, not yet.
JIM: Didn't have your lunch? Okay. What's
your favorite thing to have for lunch?
beans andCYRUS: Sometimes we have salad and, and
coleslaw and stuff like that.
JIM: Stuff like that.
CYRUS: And burritos.
JIM: Yeah --
CYRUS: We, we eat a lot of stuff.
JIM: Oh, you do?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: Um-hum. Do you eat breakfast
sometimes?
Cheetos.CYRUS: Yeah, sometimes we eat chips and
I Q 14
JIM: Umhum. Did --
CYRUS: And chicken.
JIM: well, that's good.
CYRUS: And hamburgers.
JIM: Hamburgers. Hey did, did you --
CYRUS: And ice cream and french fries.
JIM: Oh, that's good. I saw you had some
go-carts out there.
goodCYRUS: Yeah, we do have gocarts.
JIM: Yeah, did you ever ride on one of them?
CYRUS: Yeah .
JIM: Are they fun?
CYRUS: we, we have motorcycles too.
JIM: Motorcycles too? That's pretty neat.
CYRUS: I have one too.
JIM: You do? What kind is it?
CYRUS: It's a what kind it is?
RACHEL: Is it a Yamaha?
JIM: A what? A big one?
CYRUS: Huh?
JIM: Is it a big one?
CYRUS: No, it's small.
JIM: Small for your size, huh? Yeah, that's
RACHEL: Suzuki 50 ccs.
CYRUS: It's a Zuki - it's a Suzuki what?
O O 15
JIM: Suzuki.
CYRUS: It's a Suzuki 50 ccs.
JIM: Oh, that's really neat. What color is
it?
CYRUS: What color is it?
JIM: Yeah .
CYRUS: It's yellow.
JIM: Yellow Suzuki. Wow. You're a big guy
you can ride that.
CYRUS: I know.
JIM: That's really nice.
CYRUS: It ' S fun .
JIM: It's fun. I'll bet you go pretty fast,
don't you?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: Yeah. But you don't want to get hurt
now. You got to be careful.
CYRUS: I know .
JIM: Right?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: Because we don't want you to be hurt.
We want you to be safe. Okay?
CYRUS: Yeah.
JIM: Okay. And you know that. We, we want
you to be safe, okay?
CYRUS : Yeah.
JIM:
CYRUS
JIM:
[gap]
CYRUS
JIM:
CYRUS
JIM:
CYRUS
JIM:
CYRUS
JIM:
CYRUS
JIM:9 .6
Okay. Is your mom doing okay?
Yeah.
Okay.
Indiscernible.!
Huh? Where did David go?
David? He's over here.
Oh, is he, is he talking to everybody?
Huh?
Is he talking to everybody?
Who's talking to everybody?
David.
He's just laying there.
He's just laying there. Oh, Rachel's
talking to everybody. Yeah.
I'm hereCYRUS: What?
JIM: Is your, your mom's not there, is she?
CYRUS: Yeah, my mom's here. My mom's here.
JIM: Oh, is she? Let me talk to her.
CYRUS: Okay. Mimicking his mother.! Yes,
JIM: Rachel?
CYRUS: No, that was just me.
JIM: Oh. Is Rachel there?
RACHEL: He's a big joke.
JIM: Laughing.!
O I 1,
RACHEL: He was laughing because he was
pretending to be me.
JIM: Oh. Yeah, I know. Is, is - did David
go to tell everybody, or did you send somebody to --
RACHEL: Yeah. They're -- they went to pass
it around to all the guys.
JIM: Okay, good.
RACHEL: To everybody.
JIM: Yeah. So once you tell me that
everybody's got the word, then we will send it, okay?
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: But I won't send it until you tell me
that everybody knows.
RACHEL: Okay. Let me, let me see. we don't
know if they all know yet. Wants to know if
indiscernible!.
JIM: I'm going to tell them to turn that
radio on. It's 1.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I think they're
going out to get indiscernible!.
RACHEL: He says indiscernible!.
JIM: Yeah. Hey, Rachel?
RACHEL: Did you say something?
JIM: Yeah. Turn that radio on now, because
it's almost 1:06.
RACHEL: Okay.
Q U 18
JIM: That's 1010 AM.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: Go ahead. I'll hang on.
RACHEL: 1010. Channel 1010 they're going to
announce it. Unidentified voices in background not
discernible.!
RADIO: -- through KRLD.
RACHEL: Can you hear it?
RADIO: Obviously our activities over the
last couple of days have been a question --
RACHEL: indiscernible! were saying --
RADIO: and it has been a difficult time
for us. We're trying to make decisions oftentimes by
the seat of our pants --
JIM: You got a radio?
RADIO: We are --
JIM: At 1:06.
RADIO: -- in receipt of some material --
Radio continues playing, intermittently discernible.!
RACHEL: I think they just - did they just
announce it on KRLD?
JIM: I think they did.
RACHEL: when I turned it on they said from
David to the world or something.
JIM: Yeah. At 1:30, right?
RACHEL: I didn't hear the time, because I
U U 19
just turned it on. I didn't hear them say the time. I
probably missed it.
JIM: Yeah. The, the two stations will do it
at the same time.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: At 1:30. But when you -- they may be
saying we're -- they should be saying we're going to do
it. And I think that's what they just said.
RACHEL: Umhum. You already ate. See if
she wants some more. Unidentified voices in
background not discernible.!
[9aP]
RACHEL: It's really kind of hard to tell
where 1010 is. Because we haven't been listening to
it, and I don't have an exact dial on my --
JIM: Oh, really.
RACHEL: -- radio here. If I knew what
was --
JIM: Well, you could --
RACHEL: -- playing right now then I would
know.
JIM: What are they playing right now?
RACHEL: Yeah.
JIM: Can you get us a radio so we can --
she's having trouble tuning it in. If she knew what
they were playing now. This is Rachel. Okay, just a
U C 20
minute. I'm going to see if I can get one. Maybe I --
RACHEL: Okay. Watch your sister. You ate
already.
[9aP]
JIM: Yeah, radio is what I need. No. Okay.
Just an AM radio. Rachel, I don't have a radio. So I
can't tell you what they're saying.
RACHEL: Oh, you don't? Okay.
JIM: But it is a Craig Smith show.
RACHEL: Sorry?
JIM: Craig Smith. He's the guy on the
Christian Broadcast Network. It's his program.
RACHEL: Uh-huh. Okay.
JIM: That's on. So you might see if you
could pick that up. They should be just talking now,
so it wouldn't be music.
[9<'='P]
RACHEL: Oh, yes. I'll see if someone else
can get it. Can you get it? Can you get it?
JIM: Yeah, I wanted --
RACHEL: No, but indiscernible!.
Unidentified male voices in background not
discernible.! Well, I guess he wants to listen to it
on KRLD anyway.
JIM: Yeah, it's the same --
RACHEL: It's the same thing.
I
92
79 U 21
JIM: The same thing, yeah.
RACHEL: One, one person has it on 1010.
JIM: Okay, good. So now you --
RACHEL: We've got a few radios around here.
JIM: Okay, good. They got one person --
hold on. Unidentified voices in background not
discernible.!
[gap]
RACHEL: what's she doing?
[9aP]
JIM: I can hear some radio back there,
Rachel. Is that KRLD?
RACHEL: Hello? What?
JIM: Is that KRLD I'm hearing?
RACHEL: Oh, from here?
JIM: Yeah.
RACHEL: Yes.
JIM: Yeah. Okay. Are, are you guys, are
you guys upstairs or downstairs? Are we going to have
trouble getting David down these stairs or anything?
Rachel?
RACHEL: Hello?
JIM: All right. Is David upstairs or down?
I mean are you going to have trouble getting him
downstairs or anything?
RACHEL: No, it shouldn't be a problem.
i, lb 22
JIM: Okay. Bet you guys are tired, aren't
you?
[9aP]
RACHEL: Do all the guys know
indiscernible!? Does every know? Unidentified
voices in background not discernible.! So everyone
knows? Unidentified voices in background not
discernible.! Make sure everyone knows.
They say everyone knows, but we're going to
double check on that.
JIM: That's real smart. That's --
RACHEL: Just make sure everybody does know.
JIM: That's real smart. That's real good.
Yeah, go ahead and do it. I don't want anybody to not
understand, you know?
RACHEL: Just a minute. Someone else wants
to talk to you.
JIM: Okay.
DAYLAND: Hello?
JIM: Hello? Is this Star?
DAYLAND: Yeah.
JIM: How are you?
DAYLAND: How are you?
JIM: Well, I'm doing real good. Are you
feeling okay?
DAYLAND: Yeah.
U U 2.
JIM: Oh, good. I'm glad. You going to come
out soon --
DAYLAND: Yeah.
JIM: - with your mommy, aren't you?
DAYLAND: Yeah.
JIM: Good. We'll get to see you when you
come out, okay? You be good for your mom, now, and you
help her.
DAYLAND: Yeah.
JIM: Okay? You promise me?
DAYLAND: What?
[QBP]
JIM: I want you to help your mom, okay?
Will you do that?
DAYLAND: Yeah.
JIM: Okay. You be good.
DAYLAND: Okay.
JIM: All right. See you later.
DAYLAND: Yeah.
JIM: Okay, bye.
DAYLAND: Bye.
NICOLE: Hello?
JIM: Hey.
NICOLE: Hello?
JIM: Is that Star?
NICOLE: No. This is Dayland's mother.
U U 2.
JIM: Oh, whose mother?
NICOLE: Daylands mother.
JIM: Oh, Damon.
NICOLE: You just spoke to Dayland on the
phone.
JIM: Yeah. How are you doing?
NICOLE: Sorry?
JIM: what's your name?
NICOLE: Nicole.
JIM: Okay. Are you doing okay?
NICOLE: Yeah. Fine.
JIM: All right. Good. Has Rachel told you
what's going on?
NICOLE: Yeah.
JIM: Okay. Just hang in there and trust us,
and everybody's going to be fine, okay?
NICOLE: We really appreciate what you're
doing.
JIM: Well, that's all right. We appreciate
you guys working with us, and we'll just settle this
all real quiet and peacefully, you know, for the kids
and you guys, okay? So that's --
NICOLE: Okay.
JIM: what we're going to work out. So I
just want you to hang with us, and don't get upset when
you see any of these vehicles. We've got - one's got
" I 25
to bring a stretcher for David and, you know.
NICOLE: Umhum.
JIM: Don't be upset or anything, okay?
We're just trust us and we'll, we'll all get out of
this together.
NICOLE: Um-hum.
JIM: Okay?
NICOLE: Okay.
JIM: Do you have any other children?
NICOLE: Yes. I have a --
JIM: How old --
NICOLE: - I have a little girl.
JIM: How old is she?
NICOLE: She's 1.
JIM: One. What's her name?
NICOLE: Pagis phonetic sp.!.
JIM: Pagis. Okay. And how old's Damon?
NICOLE: Dayland is 3.
JIM: Three. Okay.
NICOLE: You've probably heard about them
anyway. My parents have flown in from Australia.
JIM: Oh, yeah. That's right.
NICOLE: Bruce and Lisa Gent phonetic sp.!
JIM: Yeah.
NICOLE: Lisa's not my real mother. But my
dad, Bruce Gent.
I O 26
JIM: Yeah. Okay. They're coming in. well,
you'll want to be reunited with them. That will be
great.
NICOLE: Sorry?
JIM: That, that's a long flight. When will
they get here?
NICOLE: They're already here.
JIM: Oh, they are? Okay.
NICOLE: Yeah.
JIM: Well, that's good.
NICOLE: I've heard that they're concerned
from the radio. We listen to the radio.
I'mJIM: Oh, well, that's great. That's super.
glad. That's, that's great.
NICOLE: Okay.
JIM: When was the last time you were in
Australia?
now.
you?NICOLE: The last time?
JIM: Yeah.
NICOLE: Let me think. Probably 4 years ago
JIM: Oh, I'll bet you miss seeing it, don't
NICOLE: Australia?
JIM: Yeah.
NICOLE: Well, I got a book that's got better
things to
AustraliaO I 2,
see in it, and I'm holding on to that.
JIM: That's good. I've never been to
NICOLE: You haven't?
JIM: Been to London a couple of times and --
NICOLE: Nah.
JIM: But it's not the same, is it?
NICOLE: No.
JIM: Laughing.!
NICOLE: N0.
JIM: Not quite the same.
NICOLE: No.
JIM: London's too crowded.
NICOLE: That's what I've heard.
JIM: It's --
NICOLE: Have some English people here.
JIM: Yeah.
NICOLE: Yeah.
JIM: It's, it's different, you know.
NICOLE: Yeah.
JIM: I knew a girl that was from Australia
and she just, she just loved it.
NICOLE: Yeah.
JIM: All the wide open space and all those
beaches and --
NICOLE: Oh, it's not that good.
0 . 2s
JIM: NO?
NICOLE: No. There's a lot of desert there
now.
JIM: Oh, the outback?
NICOLE: Yeah, center the coastal -- it's
only around the edges of coastal. The center is very
dead and arid and dry and hot. It's not that good.
JIM: Do you ever see any of those kangaroos
down there?
NICOLE: Oh, yeah. The big reds, yeah.
JIM: Do you really?
NICOLE: Yeah.
JIM: Yeah.
NICOLE: They're - yeah. I've seen them in
jumping, you know. You drive through the country and
you see them.
JIM: Oh, that's neat.
NICOLE: Yeah.
JIM: Koala bears and wallabies and all that
stuff?
NICOLE: Yeah, I've seen all them. I've held
a koala bear.
JIM: You have?
NICOLE: They've got sharp claws.
JIM: You mean they're, they'll, they'll
actually hold you?
I Q 29
NICOLE: Well, this was when I was about 10
years old at a park up in Queensland. I was with my
grandfather, and they gave me a koala bear to hold with
my brother.
JIM: Well, that's kind of neat.
NICOLE: S0.
JIM: You're the first person I ever talked
to that held a koala bear.
NICOLE: Laughing.!
JIM: I think that's neat. Don't they have
big claws on them or something?
NICOLE: Yeah. Very big claws. Big black
claws.
JIM: But they won't scratch you, will they?
NICOLE: You got to be careful.
JIM: Really.
NICOLE: This one was pretty tame. But they
can get pretty wild.
JIM: Yeah. Wow, that's -- yeah. Hold on a
minute. Hold on a minute, Nicole.
NICOLE: Okay. Unidentified male voice in
background not discernible.!
[9aP]
JIM: You okay?
NICOLE: Yeah.
JIM: How you feeling? Are you, are you in
O I .0
pretty good spirits?
NICOLE: Yeah.
JIM: You sound okay.
NICOLE: Yeah. I'm okay. I'm fine.
JIM: Good. Well, just --
NICOLE: Feeling a bit shaky, you know.
JIM: I know. And listen.
NICOLE: Their coming in like that, you know?
They just came in. I mean there was no warning or
anything. I look out my window. I see them coming in.
I look out my window again, they jump out, and they
just started shooting.
JIM: Oh, I know. Well, listen. That's,
that's the past. And now we're dealing with --
NICOLE: That was scary.
JIM: -- the future.
NICOLE: Shuddering.!
JIM: I know. But we're just concerned about
you. And, and we're going to work this all out. And
I'm just concerned how you're feeling now?
NICOLE: Now, yeah. I'm fine now. Then.
JIM: Yeah. And you know, just keep that
good attitude and be positive. Because we're going to
all walk through this. And Damon and Pagis and you
together, okay?
NICOLE: Yeah.
Q U .1
JIM: And, and everybody in there.
NICOLE: Yeah.
JIM: Everybody in there. And all together
with David. And we're going to all work this out. And
we've all made those agreements. And --
NICOLE: Yeah.
JIM: - we're all going to stick by it,
okay?
NICOLE: Well, I hope so, you know.
JIM: Now you know you can trust me.
NICOLE: Well, yeah.
JIM: Well, you ask David or Steve or Rachel.
NICOLE: No, I know you -- I've been
observing. I've been here listening and seeing, and
David's happy to deal with you.
JIM: Yeah. Well, we're just being straight
with each other.
NICOLE: Yeah. You've been good.
JIM: Yeah. And so that's what I'm saying.
Just, just stick with me.
NICOLE: Okay.
JIM: And if you have any worry, just know
Jim's telling you the way, the right way. And I'm,
I'm - there's no tricks, okay?
NICOLE: N0.
JIM: Okay. I'm just going to, you know,
just want
I hope it
with no wi
windows.
whatever.
very sunn
be a good
bullet hol
bleeding r
stomach.
bleeding rYO U 3.
everybody to walk out quietly and peacefully.
stopped raining. I --
NICOLE: Oh, it's nice here.
JIM: Is it nice? Oh, good. I'm in a room
ndows.
NICOLE: Sorry?
JIM: I said I'm inside a room --
NICOLE: Oh, you, oh, you --
JIM: an office that doesn't have any
NICOLE: Oh, it's very -- it's sunny outside.
JIM: Oh, good.
NICOLE: I don't know if it's hot or cool or
It was cold last night. But it's -- it is
outside.
JIM: Oh, well, that will be good. That will
day. That's great.
NICOLE: David was just showing Dayland his
e in his, in his side part near his hip.
JIM: Yeah, it's near his hip, isn't it?
NICOLE: Yeah. It's in his hip.
JIM: Yeah. I know - he told me he was
eal bad out the, out the back.
NICOLE: It's, it's stopped - it's in his
It's, it's in his stomach. It, it isn't
ight now.
O O 3.
JIM: It isn't? Okay. You got some bandages
on the back?
NICOLE: He hasn't got anything on it.
JIM: Oh, really?
NICOLE: It's totally opened. And it's gone
straight through out the back.
JIM: Yeah.
NICOLE: Oh, he's got something on the back,
but not on the front.
It'S like,
he told me
plenty ofJIM: Oh, I see. Yeah.
NICOLE: SO --
JIM: The front's not bleeding then?
NICOLE: Well, he said it's bleeding through.
you know, draining out.
JIM: Out the back?
NICOLE: Out the back.
JIM: Yeah. And he got hit in the wrist too
NICOLE: Yeah, he did.
JIM: Yeah. Okay.
NICOLE: It's -
JIM: Well, that should be okay.
NICOLE: It's got plenty of dry - he's got
blood on him.
JIM: Yeah.
NICOLE: Dry - everywhere.
rO O 34
JIM: Yeah. Well, that's okay. You know, if
his blood pressure holds. That's why where we --
that's, that's one of the reasons we want to move up
the stretcher now and, you know, do some preliminary
things.
NICOLE: Preliminary? What do you mean?
JIM: Well, because the message has got to be
played at 1:30. See and it, it lasts for an hour.
NICOLE: Uh-huh .
JIM: And then after that, you know,
everybody's going to start coming out. We're going to
make those arrangements.
NICOLE: So you got --
JIM: Well, I'm just trying -- I don't want
David to have to lay there any longer than, you know,
until after the message is played.
NICOLE: Uh-huh. So it's for an hour, huh?
JIM: Yeah. His message is an hour, yeah.
we're going to play it all.
NICOLE: Okay.
JIM: And then we want to start facilitating
everybody to come out, and we want him to get some
treatment.
NICOLE: Um-hum.
JIM: He needs to see a doctor with those
wounds. And everybody who has any.
' v 35
NICOLE: They've got some pretty big tanks
out there.
JIM: Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's, that's not a
tank. It doesn't have any guns on it. It's just --
NICOLE: It's - it looks like it's got a gun
part out the front of it.
JIM: No, it's but there - we took the
gun off it.
NICOLE: Sorry?
JIM: We took the gun off it.
NICOLE: You took the gun off it?
JIM: Yeah. Um-hum. There's no gun on it.
NICOLE: Oh. Well, when I looked through, I
could see that the big barrel thing out the front of
it. And there's like six of them. I'm like whoa.
JIM: Oh, yeah. No, hey, Nicole. It's no
problem. It's don't worry about it. It's just,
just so they don't get shot. That's all it is.
NICOLE: Yeah. Okay. How are the other kids
doing?
JIM: They're doing good. I've been talking
with them and of course let them talk to their moms.
And these people here, ladies at Health Services have
been treating them like they're their own kids, you
know.
NICOLE: That's good. That's good.
92
i
92 1' 36
JIM: And they're just real gentle with them
and giving them food and keeping them warm. And
they're doing great. All the kids are in great
spirits. I mean just super.
NICOLE: They're great kids. Our kids are
great, you know.
JIM: Oh, they are. They're well behaved.
And every one of them just as polite as they could be.
And none of them, not any of them were upset. I was
concerned that, you know, when they saw a few policemen
and agents they would get scared, you know? But they
didn't. And the agents made sure they were real
gentle. And then of course we gave them to the, the
ladies at the Health Services, you know?
NICOLE: They're special kids, you know.
JIM: Yeah, they're good kids. I'm telling
you. Good kids.
NICOLE: Well, David makes the most beautiful
babies in the world.
JIM: Yeah. That's right. Fourteen months
Bobbie, huh? What color hair does she have?
NICOLE: She's got blonde.
JIM: Oh. Is that like you too?
NICOLE: Sorry?
JIM: Do you have blonde hair too?
NICOLE: I don't, I don't have blonde hair.
92
W
IO U 37
JIM: No, you don't. She got it though, huh?
NICOLE: Sorry?
JIM: What? Something happened to my line
there.
NICOLE: What happened?
JIM: I don't know. Somebody must --
NICOLE: what's going on with the line?
JIM: We've had trouble --
NICOLE: Is that your line? Oh, there it
goes.
JIM: Yeah, there it is. Okay.
NICOLE: It's okay. Yeah.
JIM: I got phone wire going along the floor
here. And I must have kicked it. I got a, you know --
NICOLE: You know Dayland is David's?
JIM: Damon is David's child?
NICOLE: My son and my daughter belong to
David.
JIM: Oh --
NICOLE: They're David's children.
JIM: Your son and your daughter are David's
children.
NICOLE: Yeah.
JIM: Okay.
NICOLE: So they've got blonde hair.
Dayland's got nice blonde hair.
. as
JIM: Oh, I see. So that's where they get
it.
NICOLE: Laughing.! Big dimples.
JIM: Big dimples.
NICOLE: Yeah.
JIM: Laughing.! That's great.
NICOLE: They're all, they're all pretty,
beautiful babies.
JIM: Yeah. Can you see -- do you see the,
the vehicle out there? Can you see it?
NICOLE: Can I -- I'll ask somebody. I can't
actually see it from where I'm sitting. Can, can
someone look to see if the -- unidentified voices in
background not discernible.! There's no vehicle out
there yet.
JIM: Okay. It's, it's not there yet. Okay.
I just thought it might have got there but --
NICOLE: Someone just looked, and they said
it's not there yet.
JIM: Okay. Well, we'll wait until David
checks with everybody.
NICOLE: Sorry?
JIM: I said David's going to check to
make you guy were double telling everybody, right?
NICOLE: We're triple, quadruple told
everybody.
7
92 ", 39
JIM: Triple, quadruple. That's good
NICOLE: Yeah. So --
JIM: S0 is it -- are we ready? Should we
send it or?
NICOLE: Should we, should we - he's
should we send it? The stretcher.asked
DAVID: Yeah, if we could have it. And that
way I can, I can be sitting in it, you know, while I'm
listening.
NICOLE: He said --
DAVID: It's going to take a while to
me.
NICOLE: He said yeah. And he can be
it while he's listening, you know, listening to
tape.
JIM: Okay. That's, that's perfect.
great.
NICOLE: Because he said it will take
to get into it.
DAVID: Indiscernible.!IUOV9
put in
the
That's
a while
NICOLE: Okay. I'm going to go. David would
like to speak to you.
JIM: Who would?
NICOLE: David.
JIM: Yeah, sure.
NICOLE: Okay?
O I .0
JIM: Okay. Now tell everybody, pass the
word, we're sending the vehicle with the stretcher.
NICOLE: Okay.
JIM: And the vehicle will stay up you --
north of the driveway where you, on the road. It won't
be on your driveway. It will be on the road.
NICOLE: Behind the road?
JIM: No. It will be on the road.
NICOLE: On the road.
JIM: Where you can see it.
NICOLE: Okay.
JIM: But away from the - you know, a little
north of the driveway.
NICOLE: A little more on the driveway.
JIM: Well, what they're going to -- never
mind. But it will be right at the driveway. It will,
it will move away.
NICOLE: Okay. We'll, we'll see it. I'm
sure we'll see it.
JIM: You'll see it. You'll see it. Okay.
NICOLE: Okay. We'll see you later.
JIM: Okay, Nicole.
NICOLE: Bye.
DAVID: Jim?
JIM: Hey, David.
DAVID: Yeah, like I say. When it's like,
Q O ,1
you know, if we can get that thing here. Because like
it takes me a long -- I mean this thing like I
went in through my --
JIM: It's coming right now, buddy.
sent it.said
I just
DAVID: Okay, stomach. But what it is I
think it fractured or busted into my hip bone.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: So when I move just a little
like, you know, painful. So and you know, the
the sooner we have that there it would give us
time to --
JIM: You bet.
DAVID: - you know, kind of inch by
into it.
JIM: Absolutely.bit it's
better,
more
inch
DAVID: Because I haven't taken no pain pills
or nothing.
JIM: Okay. Well, it's --
DAVID: SO.
JIM: -- it's coming right now. It ought to
be there in just a few minutes.
DAVID: Okie doke. Thanks.
JIM: And then you tell one of your guys to
tell me when they see it and, and just tell me
you know, they'll -- it will move a little bitwhen,
away
I Q 42
from the driveway up there to park.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM:
won't move.It's just going to sit there and it
DAVID: All right.
JIM:And, and nobody will come out of it.
And then you tell me and, you know, you can send two
guys to the driveway to get the stretcher.
DAVID
JIM:
your message is
DAVID
JIM:
that on.
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID:
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
soldier.Okie doke.
Bring it back. And then in 5 minutes
coming on.
Okie doke.
In both channels so, you know, keep
Oh, God bless you, Jim.
Are you, are you holding on for me.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah. I talked to Nicole.
Yeah, Nickie. I love her, Jim.
And Damon and Cyrus.
Dayland. Dayland.
Dayland.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And yeah. Cyrus is my, he's my big
O C .3
JIM: Yeah. He's, he's a good --
DAVID: He's a, he's a rock musician. He's
got long hair.
JIM: He said he likes astronauts and go-
carts.
DAVID: Oh, yeah. well, like I say, the go
carts here and the little motorcycles belong to the
children.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: So I hope, you know --
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: -- these things are all straightened
out that these things can be properly, you know,
divided up. Because I say it belongs to the children.
JIM: Right. Hey, let me go through a few
things with you.
DAVID: Yeah. Wait one second, Jim. Let
me - I want to really confirm again and again and
again that nobody on this side does anything stupid,
okay?
JIM: Okay. That's good. Real good.
DAVID: So let me - I mean I'm, you know,
like I say - what?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Well, where's Neil at? Unidentified
male voice in background not discernible.! Okay.
U Q 4.
Here, talk to Rachel a minute, okay, please?
JIM: Okay. Sure.
RACHEL: Hello?
JIM: Hey, Rachel.
RACHEL: Okay. D0 you want to say hi?
you want to say hi? Say hi. Say hello.
BOBBIE: Giggling.!
RACHEL: Say hi. Hi.
BOBBIE: Giggling.!
JIM: Laughing.! Is that baby okay?
RACHEL: That's my little girl.
BOBBIE: Hello. Hello.
RACHEL: Oh, here. Say hello.
JIM: Hello?
RACHEL : Hello ?
JIM: Hello?
BOBBIE: Giggling.!
JIM: She sounds pretty good.
BOBBIE: Hello.
JIM: Hello.
STAR: Hi.
JIM: Hi. How are you?
STAR: Fine.
JIM: Good. You're doing all right?
STAR: Huh?
JIM: What's your name?
STAR:
JIM:
STAR:
JIM:
old?
STAR:
JIM:
your hair?
STAR:
JIM:
STAR:
JIM:
STAR:
JIM:
STAR:
JIM:
better. That's
STAR:
JIM:
STAR:
JIM:
STAR:
JIM:
STAR:
JIM:
STAR:U .5
What?
what's your name?
Star.
Star. How old are you? Five years
Five.
Five years old. Yeah. What color is
Huh?
What color is your hair?
Red.
Red hair.
Yes.
Well, that's pretty.
Strawberry blonde.
Strawberry blonde. Oh, that's even
great.
Huh?
That's great. Rachel's --
What?
Rachel's your mommy?
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. How you doing today?
Fine.
Fine.
What?
JIM:
STAR
JIM:
STAR
JIM:
STAR
JIM:
STAR:
JIM:
STAR:
JIM:
STAR:
[9aP]
JIM:
STAR:
JIM:
STAR:
background not
JIM:
STAR
JIM:
STAR
JIM:
little while.
STAR
JIM:What's that baby crying? Huh?
Nope. I don't know.
You don't know?
NO.
Do you like Big Bird?
What?
Do you like Big Bird?
Yeah.
You do? Yeah.
Do you like Big Bird?
Do you like cartoons?
What?
Hey.
Huh?
You okay?
Yeah. Unidentified female voice in
discernible.!
You, you like to ride a bicycle?
No. we can't.
You can't?
Can't go outside.
Why not? Oh, yeah. You will in a
Okay?
Okay.
All right, buddy.
C Q .7
STAR: Huh?
JIM: All right. That's good.
[9aP]
STAR: Who's Big Bird?
JIM: Oh. Sesame Street. Do you ever see
that?
STAR: Yeah. I saw it in a magazine.
JIM: Oh. Do you, do you have any good books
you like to read?
STAR: Yeah.
JIM: Tell me about the ones you read.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Big Bird. Big
yellow Big Bird.
JIM: What kind of books do you like? The
Bible?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: And Ernie.
Remember the Cookie Monster?
JIM: Do you have any cartoon books? Picture
books?
STAR: Ernie and Cookie Monster.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: N0. But itS
on that program. Big Bird. It's on the same show.
Ernie and the Cookie Monster. Remember?
STAR: Yeah. Unidentified voices in
background not discernible.!
[9aP]
O O .8
JIM: Hey, J.D., can you switch to this thing
without cutting off?
J.D.: How about indiscernible!.
Unidentified male voices in background not
discernible.!
I'm here
phone.!STAR: I hear him talking off of the phone.
JIM: I think I have it. Hey.
STAR: Huh?
JIM: You still there?
STAR: Yeah.
JIM: Okay.
STAR: My mommy said are you gone?
RACHEL: No, I said indiscernible!.
JIM: No. No, tell her I'm here. Tell her
STAR: He's here. He's, he is here.
[9aP]
JIM: That's all.
STAR: Huh?
JIM: You doing okay?
STAR: Yeah.
[9aP]
STAR: We're still here. Blowing into the
JIM: You getting tired?
STAR: Huh?
JIM:
STAR:
JIM:
STAR:
JIM:
STAR:
[9aP]
JIM:
STAR:
JIM:
checking with evU .9
Are you getting tired?
N0.
Okay.
I was blowing through the telephone.
You're blowing through the telephone.
Yeah. Giggling.!
Well, it's okay.
Huh?
She said to hold off. He's double
erybody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: NO one's going
JIM:
STAR
JIM:
STAR:
intermittently
JIM:
STAR
JIM:
STAR:
[9aP]
STAR:
kept saying what
telephone too --
JIM:No, just send it.
Okay.
They've already -
What? Radio is turned up,
discernible.!
They --
What?
You still there?
What?
Mommy, the telephone is too high. I
, what, what. I can't hear because the
the tape is too loud.
Oh, okay. Is Rachel there?
D U 5.
STAR: What?
JIM: Is, is your mommy there?
STAR: Yeah.
JIM: Let me talk to her.
STAR: Huh?
JIM: Let me talk to your mom.
STAR: Yeah. Mommy.
RACHEL: Hello?
JIM: Rachel?
RACHEL: Yes.
JIM: Are they playing the message?
RACHEL: They're yeah. Kind of like the
prefix so to speak.
JIM: Okay.
RACHEL: They're just saying that they have
the tape there, and I turned it down though, because
she said she couldn't hear you so.
JIM: Oh, okay. Well, you can turn it up.
Just turn it up and I'll hear it.
RACHEL: Okay.
RADIO RICK!: -- the compound. The FBI
agents then added onto the front of it 8 to 10 seconds
in which David Koresh agrees upon the broadcast of this
tape to come out peacefully with all persons inside.
And then there's a 4 second pause. And then we get
into the body of the 58-minute tape that was sent out
92/'
to the FBI agents
tell me the, the,
when it's time towhat the
roll the
RADIO CHARLIE!:
seconds by the, our studio
that. So if
countdown as
to thank you.
time for youyou can stand
we get closer
I know it's92_/ 51
. And Charlie, I guess if you'll just
time looks like and, and
tape, we'll be ready to go.
We've got a minute and 15
clock here. And we'll go by
by, we'll give you a
to it. Again, Rick, I want
been an incredibly stressful
there. And not knowing what was around
the corner and having to face up to it in an incredibly
professional manner. And I thank you for all your
service. And, and you can have a couple of days off
when we get out of this so you can catch up on
sleep. Because I plan to do the same. Can we
more question?your
ask one
RADIO RICK!: Sure.
RADIO CHARLIE!: With the agreement
they will peacefully leave the compound, is itthat
your
understanding, Rick, that will be after the broadcast
or during the broadcast when it begins?
RADIO RICK!: I don't know, Bob. That's
between the FBI negotiators and David Koresh. From the
listening to the first few seconds of it I get the
impression that once the broadcast starts, the peaceful
surrender will begin. But that's just based on the
words I heard.
i, I, 52
RADIO CHARLIE!: Okay.
RADIO RICK!: Time will tell. It will,
we'll have to depend on our reporters, and we'll have
to qualify that so that people don't have expectations.
That's an assumption on our part. We really don't
know. Having not been a party to the negotiations, we
cannot give you any certainty to the, the contents of
the tape. We need to do a legal ID here, Bob. This is
KRLD, DallasFort Worth. It is 1:30.
RADIO: The tape you're about to hear was
given to KRLD news 42 minutes ago by two FBI agents who
came from the command post at the PSPI, the old
Connolly phonetic sp.! Air Force Base indiscernible!.
Radio continues playing, intermittently discernible.!
RACHEL: Is someone confirming to them that
it's after the tape or --
JIM: The, the --
RACHEL: Because they think that it's, it's
going to begin after they start the tape not at the end
of the tape.
JIM: Well, no, it's after the end. Don't
worry about that. You and I work that out.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: Yeah.
RADIO: - by the request of the FBI and
David Koresh at 1:30.i
92
<
I O 53
Following is the tape being played over the
radio.!
TAPE: I, David Koresh, agree upon the
broadcasting of this tape to come out peacefully with
all the people immediately.
RADIO: Now we will have a few seconds before
the beginning of the 58 minute --
TAPE: March 2nd, 1993. My name is Dave
Koresh. I'm speaking to you from Mt. Carmel Center.
The first thing that I would like to
introduce in our subject is the reasons for the
revelation of Jesus Christ. In the Book of
Revelations, commentary states that what John has
written in scripture is nothing other than the
revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to
show to his servants things which much shortly come to
pass. And he signified it, signified it by his angel
into service John. Now --
JIM: Rachel?
TAPE: John indiscernible! --
JIM: Hello? Rachel?
TAPE: -- the record of God and
Christ and of all things that he saw. In
chapter of Revelation, it says blessed is
blessed is he readeth, and they that hearthe
the
the
theword of
first
man,
words of
this prophecy, and those who keep the things that are
I I 5,
written therein: for the time is at hand.
Indiscernible! John writes this to the seven
churches which are in Asia.
hear it?
away.JIM: Rachel?
TAPE: Emphasis --
RACHEL: Yes.
JIM: Oh, I can hear him playing it. Can you
RACHEL: Just a minute.
JIM: Right.
RACHEL: Turns radio down.! Say that again?
JIM: Can you hear the radio good?
RACHEL: Yes.
JIM: Okay.
RACHEL: Uhhuh.
JIM: when David comes back, put him on right
RACHEL: Sorry?
JIM: when David comes back --
RACHEL: Uh-huh.
JIM: Or where is David, right there?
RACHEL: Yeah. He can't - he's not walking.
JIM: Yeah, all right.
RACHEL: why, you want to talk to him?
JIM: Yeah, let me talk to him.
RACHEL: Okay. Wants to talk to you.
0 55
[9aP]
RACHEL: He wants to know if he can listen to
this.
JIM: Yeah. Okay, that's fine.
RACHEL: Said that's fine.
Radio turned up.!
TAPE: What we're trying to present today may
in some ways shed a better light in regards to my
situation and my predicament here at Mt. Carmel.
That's why I'd like to bring out before we continue
that if we take a look at Matthew, Mark, Luke and
John --
JIM: Hey, Rachel?
RACHEL: Yes .
TAPE: -- we see the burdens of these ancient
writers --
JIM: Okay, yeah. Okay.
TAPE: -- the burden of heart --
JIM: Just hang on. I'm --
End of tape 14.!
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #15
3/2/93O O 1
I I 2
Start Tape 15!
Following is the tape being played over the
radio.!
TAPE: If we take a look at the record of
John, the Gospel writer John, take chapter 7. We see
in scripture John writes that after certain events,
after these things, Jesus walked in Galilee. He would
not walk openly, he would not walk in jewry. Would not
walk amongst the Jews, because the Jews sought to kill
him. We might wonder why. Wasn't Christ such a good
man?
Now
hand.
His
hence, and go
see the works
Forthe Jews feast of tabernacles was at
brethren therefore said unto him, Depart
into Judaea, that they disciples also may
that thou doest.
there is no man that doeth any thing in
secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If
though do these things, shew thyself to the world.
For neither did his brethren believe in him.
Strange statement, isn't it? It's funny how that when
men live and have to deal with realities of life that
even a man like Christ could have to meet with unbelief
even from his own brethren.
Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet
come: but your time is always ready. And I'm sure
O O 3
most fellow Bible students will agree the time referred
to is the time of his crucifixion. They wanted to kill
him, and he didn't want to show himself openly.
Then Jesus said to unto them -- excuse me.
Verse 7. The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth,
because I testify of it, that the works thereof are
evil.
Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet
unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.
When he had said these words unto them, he
abode still in Galilee.
But when his brethren were gone up, then went
he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were
in secret.
You would wonder why a man like Christ would
have something to hide. I mean surely the angels would
protect him obviously. I personally think a lot of
things about this strange character and disposition of
character. But we're sure in being Christian that
Christ knew what he was doing. Unidentified voices in
background not discernible.!
Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and
said, Where is he?
RACHEL: Well, can you let them find out if
they see the stretcher, if they took the stretcher out?
TAPE: And there was much murmuring among the
O O 4
people concerning him: for some said, He is a good
man: others said, Nay,; but he deceiveth the people.
RACHEL: The truck is here. But we're
waiting to see if they let out the stretcher. Are you
there?
JIM: Yeah.
RACHEL: Okay.
TAPE: Howbeit no man spake openly of him for
fear of the Jews.
JIM: What did you say about the stretcher?
TAPE: Now we understand the Jews at that
time had their own religious unidentified male voice
in background not discernible! ~-
JIM: Oh.
TAPE: - political network, didn't they?
JIM: Okay. Well, we're sending it.
TAPE: And a pretty strongly religious
spectrum although they had no actual political power.
They were subject to the relevant government and thus
to the really traditional rabbinical laws.
Now about the midst of the feast, Jesus went
up into the temple, and taught.
And Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this
man letters, having never learned?
Now in the days of Israel, most scholars and
teachers will agree that the schools of Israel ordained
by the Sanhedrin and also the Pharisees were schools
similar to the ones of our own theological schools of
today of which a careful student of scripture observes
that no where is it written in the gospel that Christ
ever attended these schools. But at the age of 12 he
did enter into the temple and had a most unique and
interesting discussion with the religious leaders of
which they were quite amazed at such a young lad's
knowledge of scripture.
Now this man was teaching something no doubt
Christ that is, that inspired the people to say, you
know, how knoweth this man, you know, letters having
never learned. They marvelled.
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine i
not mine, but his that sent me. Now what does that
mean? My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Returning to
indiscernible!.
TAPE: If any man will do the will, do his
will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of
God, or whether I speak of myself.
Now friends, people that love the Lord, this
is where we begin to talk about some serious things.
I'm sure you're all aware of how, how I'm involved in
very serious thing right now. And I'm sure that a lot
of you realize that I should be possibly scared,5
I
S
8
O Q 6
concerned. There is women, children and men involved
in our situation here at Mt. Carmel. But I am really
concerned about the lies of my brethren here and also
really concerned even greater about the lies of all
those in this world.
You know, without Christ, without Jesus, we
have no hope. Why? Well, because we know that the
standard of God's righteousness is a law. A law
between men. A law of statutes and judgments and which
God gave unto Moses from Sinai. Say this is thy
righteousness, O Israel.
But you know, God also gave another law. A
law revolving around a system of shedding a poor and
innocent lamb's blood. And that all who would break
the law of God who would seek indiscernible!. Tape
continues playing.!
RACHEL: Well, the, the truck is there. And
it's like in front of the driveway of our neighbor's
house. But we cannot see any stretcher anywhere.
JIM: Okay. The truck is there, but you
can't see the stretcher?
RACHEL: Right .
JIM: Okay. I'll get the commanders in touch
with them through the radio to see where it is.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: Hold on a second. I'll do it. Yeah,
O O 7
where did that vehicle - where is it now?
RACHEL: It's -- okay. First it stopped
the gate, and then it drove forward to, to Mark's
house.
JIM: The -- oh, okay. The second house
yeah, okay.
RACHEL: The large house, yeah.
JIM: Yeah.
RACHEL: And then it's now kind of facin
this building here.
JIM: Okay.
RACHEL: Almost straight, but not quite
straight.
JIM: Okay. They probably dropped it out e
bottom, okay?
RACHEL: So would it be on --
JIM: It would be --
RACHEL: They should see it on the road.
should be able to see it from here.
JIM: Yeah. I know they should be able
see it. I'll check it out.
RACHEL: Just a minute.
JIM: The stretcher ~- Rachel? Rachel?
Rachel? Rachel? Rachel? They can't see it from
the
RACHEL: Say that again indiscernible!.I
9
t
0 O 8
They were supposed to drop the stretcher off at the
gate. No, they're, they're going to wait now. I'm
supposed to let them know.
JIM: Hey, Rachel?
RACHEL: Indiscernible! the stretcher. So
he's going to call, radio it in and call them.
Unidentified voice in background not discernible.! I
already told him that.
JIM: Rachel?
RACHEL: They just said that we are waiting
to see the stretcher.
JIM: Okay, listen. I just radioed them.
RACHEL: Uhhuh .
JIM: And they dropped it out the bottom, and
it's in the road, okay?
RACHEL: Where at?
JIM: Right in front of the driveway. Now
you need to change windows if you want to see it. Look
with your binoculars. You know it's -- I'm sure it's
that military color, and it's hard to see. A green
Army stretcher.
RACHEL: So it's a green Army stretcher.
JIM: It's going to be hard to see, you know.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: Get your binoculars if you want to
check or you --
I I 9
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: -- you can send somebody out now to
walk down and look.
RACHEL: So the truck's going to stay there
the whole time?
JIM: The truck will not move.
RACHEL: Okay. Just a minute. He said if
somebody can go up and tell the stretcher is going to
be hard to see because it's camouflage. And it was
dropped out from the bottom of the, the truck right in
the driveway. Well, can they look -- he said look from
a different angle because it's there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Why can't they
just leave?
RACHEL: No, they're not going to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: They're not
going to move out.
JIM: Rachel? Yeah, hey, Rachel?
RACHEL: So how long is the truck going to
stay there?
JIM: Oh, it's just going to sit there, okay?
NOW --
RACHEL: The whole time?
JIM: Yeah.
RACHEL: It's not going to leave?
JIM: Not going to leave. Just going to sit
O O lo
there. Listen, I guarantee no one's going to
interfere. Nobody's getting out. You can walk down
and look for the stretcher. You'll verify it's there.
If, if you want to walk down the driveway a little ways
and look I guarantee your safety.
RACHEL: Just a minute. Can you go up and
tell them that it's a camouflage stretcher. It was
dropped off from the bottom of the, from underneath
the --
JIM: That's green Army.
RACHEL: the truck. And it's in the
driveway. It's there.
JIM: She's telling them the driveway and
it's in the, it's in the road. So let me see if I can
get it well, there's a building there that could
block their view too. Hey, Rach?
RACHEL: Okay. We're going to send up a
couple of guys to walk up there and see if they can see
it.
JIM: Okay.
RACHEL: Because we can't see it from here.
Maybe they dropped it in front of that little shed,
that's why we can't see it.
JIM: Yeah. It could be in front of the
little shed, and it's just a green Army stretcher.
It's going to be hard to see, you know.
O O 11
RACHEL: okay.
JIM: But it's okay. Tell them to go look.
They're safe.
RACHEL: okay.
JIM: Guaranteed safety.
RACHEL: It may be in front of the shed.
But -- unidentified male voice in background not
discernible!. Okay. So you want to just send Greg and
Steve up there? Unidentified male voice in background
not discernible.! Okay. We're going to send two guys
up there --
JIM: Okay, great.
RACHEL: - for it.
JIM: You just stay on the phone with me and
let me know.
RACHEL: Okay. Just a minute.
JIM: Yeah, go pick it up if they see it.
Tell them that. If they see it go pick it up.
RACHEL: we're going to send Greg and Steve
up there --
JIM: Hey, Rachel? Rachel?
RACHEL: Indiscernible! Mark?
JIM: Rachel?
RACHEL: Keep the children quiet.
JIM: Rachel?
RACHEL: Yes. There's a okay.
O Q 1.
it.
out the do
know.
they --
But they'r
walking ou
to ~- he j
we're goin
I'll talkJIM: Rachel?
RACHEL: Yes.
JIM: Tell them if they see it just to go get
RACHEL: They said that they're going to go
or right now. They just want to let you
JIM: Okay. They can go pick it up if
RACHEL: Well, we can't see it from here.
e going to go ahead and walk up there.
JIM: Okay, great.
RACHEL: But they said, you know, they're
t the door now.
JIM: Are they, are they still there?
RACHEL: He just told me he was, he was going
ust peeked around the corner and told me
g to go out the door right now.
JIM: Okay. who is it, Greg?
RACHEL: Yeah.
JIM: Holler at him. Let me catch him, and
to him a minute.
RACHEL: Greg. Holler at him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Greg. Greg.
RACHEL: Is he gone already?
[9aP]
O I ,3
RACHEL: Is he coming? Okay, he's coming.
Greg, he wants to talk to you.
stretcher
a second.GREG: All right.
RACHEL: He's coming.
JIM:
[QED]
GREG:
JIM:
GREG:
JIM:
GREG:
JIM:
GREG:
JIM:
GREG:
JIM:
STEVE
GREG:
JIM:
GREG:
JIM:
GREG:
JIM:
GREG:Okay.
Hello?
Hey, Greg?
Is this Jim?
Yeah, this is Jim.
Hey, Jim. What's up?
Listen, that truck dropped the
Yeah, and he, he sure did scare us.
Oh, I understand. But listen.
That's all right.
There's no gun ~-
Let me talk to him.
Okay.
who's that?
That's Steve.
Oh, Steve.
Yeah, he'll talk to you here in a just
Okay. There's no gun.
Okay.
O O 1,
JIM:
I've told them
GREG:
JIM:
GREG:
JIM:
GREG:
JIM:
You'll see it.
GREG:
JIM:
Army color.
GREG:
JIM:
guarantee 1,000
GREG:
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
problems whatso
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:Nobody's coming out of that thing. And
not to move.
Okay.
They know you're coming, okay?
The whole field? Everybody?
Everybody knows.
Okay.
Okay. You just walk out the driveway.
It may be the, that little building.
Yeah, I can already see it.
Okay. And it's kind of like it's green
Okay.
Just pick it up and go on back. I
percent safe conduct.
Okay. Here's Steve.
Okay.
o
0Hi, Jim.
Steve, how you doing?
Not too bad. Not too bad.
Everything'S okay and --
: Okay. I believe -- I have no
ever.
Okay. Super.
: Trust is totally into you so.
That's great. Hey --
"' " 15
STEVE: So they got it out there. It's ready
then?
JIM: Yeah, it's ready. And I talked to
Greg. And he's going to get it.
STEVE: Okay. well, both of us were going to
out.
JIM: Oh, great. Just walk out there.
STEVE: Okay. The both of us?
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: Okay. Real good.
JIM: I've already cleared. Go ahead.
STEVE: Okay, thanks.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Okay. Bye-bye.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: Rachel?
RACHEL: Yes.
JIM: Okay. Is David still listening to the
message?
RACHEL: Yes.
JIM: Okay. All right. Just hang on here
with me.
RACHEL: Okay.
TAPE: for they know not what they do
indiscernible! which is a point that we're fixing to
get into quite heavily. Father, into thy hands I
O O 16
commit my spirit. Taken from Psalms 31, we begin to
see that Christ is well versed at the scripture just
like the gospels tell him when indiscernible.! Always
referring I guess to temptation by stating it is
written. It is written. It is written.
Now what is this spirit of Christ? Well,
they pierced his side. Out of his side came blood and
water. I get another mystery. This became something
to do with eating his body and drinking his blood.
Some implements for the church. But what do these
things really mean?
Well, after we've read Acts and learned of
the power of pentecost, the cloven tongues of fire that
came upon the
given another
learn through
God in Christ
Corinthians I
Philippians.apostles who by mercy through Christ were
chance to recover from their falling. We
Romans that there is a righteousness of
declare his righteousness. We learn in
and II, we learn in Ephesians, Galatians,
Oh, we have such a wealth of information
of such intelligent men who speak sometimes very deep,
mystical things about a God who is in the form of
humanity who is the Son of God who sits at the right
hand of God in the highest court of the universe.
RACHEL: Keep the kids quiet.
TAPE: Who promises that one day he'll come
again. Well, the last living apostle indiscernible!
I O 1,
this great controversy. And I might add those who
persecuted Christ who would not hear him no matter what
sign was given also persecuted his disciples.
And finally, we end up in the Book of
Revelation where John, the last living disciple on the
Isle of Patmos being a prisoner for the word of God and
for the testimony of Jesus Christ which no doubt are
the things Jesus has to say which would probably be
quite controversial to the things that the Pharisees
and Sanhedrin of the day had to say we're sure. He
being on this Isle of Patmos a prisoner on the Lord's
day had a vision. And it states in this vision, we
should all be familiar with it hopefully or get
familiar with it, he has a messenger, the angel of the
Lord come to him who identifies himself as the spirit.
And he is told
Asia of which we can see
they were given specific
Christ. And in each oneto write the seven churches of
clearly in the scriptures that
and direct messages from
of these messages Christ
specifically told the churches what he would have them
to do. Now we know that Christ is the only man in
scripture who ever kept the law of God perfectly. We
know that, because we've heard the writings of the
apostles. But sad to say the religious leaders of his
days and the majority of the populace of his days
didn't think so.
. ' l8
It's funny how that is. It's kind of like
people always like to build the sepulchers of the dead
prophets and garnish their tombs. But yet they hate
and kill the living prophets. Only God knows why that
is.
But nonetheless, the church of Ephesus,
Smyrna, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea, the
churches that's involved for anyone to read direct
counsel is given beginning with it's the age of the
church of Ephesus, right. These things indiscernible!
what happens if the best is given. And then the
decision is up to those indiscernible! Christ. Each
council indiscernible! even has ear to hear so if you
want to know. But in here with the spirit
indiscernible! the church.
Finally, we get to the 40th chapter of
Revelation.
RACHEL: They picked up the stretcher. Now
they're on their way back.
TAPE: And as soon as scripture becomes
indiscernible!. Tape continues playing.!
JIM: They picked it up you said?
RACHEL: Yeah.
JIM: And they're on --
RACHEL: Now they're on their way back.
JIM: Okay. Okay, good. Can you see them?
O Q 19
RACHEL: Yeah .
TAPE: which was referring to the last
part of third chapter of the message of Laodicea. He
says after these things I saw and behold, a door was
opened in heaven: and the first voice that spake to me
as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said,
Come up hither, and I will show you that which must be
hereafter.
Now the question to every true Christian is
this. Is John telling us the truth, or is John lying
to us? We know he just gave counsel to the seven
churches of Asia which were alive and hopefully in good
health when he first gave these letters to them. But
nonetheless, they being of Asia are knowwise the same
people of us today or even of the oncoming years
thereafter.
So the events of chapter 4 clearly explained
by John that his messenger as sent to him stated that
he be taken up hither. Therefore a door opened in
heaven the Bible records. And he was to be shown
things which must be hereafter sometime after John's
day. Now what did he behold in chapter 4 of
revelations? He says that he was in the spirit. He
immediately was in the spirit. And behold, a throne
was set in heaven. And he states that the throne was
occupied. Someone sat on the throne. And he that sat
' ' 20
upon the throne was like a jasper, a sardine stone.
I indiscernible! say the scripture knows all
the way through prophecy, all the way through the
Bible, as far as back as the days of Genesis even to
the prophecy of Deuteronomy 32 where it says God is a
rock. He is our rock. And his work is done in truth
and in righteousness. All the prophets refer to God as
a rock.
Now here we see in Revelation John likewise
written it says God has the appearance of a jasper and
a sardine stone. Indiscernible! there was a rainbow
round about the throne, in sight like an emerald. He
carefully saw that there were living creatures around
the throne saying that God is holy, holy, holy which
was, is and is to come. God intended all things for
which the pleasure they were and are created.
Now this instruction emphasizes that there is
a God, a kingdom, a judiciary in the respect that John
witnesses that there were 24 elders sitting on 24
thrones seems to imply a judgment. But uniquely
enough, in this judgment or in this throne or in this
heavenly sanctuary as we see from the rise and fall of
the apostles.
Paul only talks about the heavenly sanctuary,
the heavenly sign. In this sanctuary, we see a God, a
rainbow, a throne, living creatures stating that God is
O 9 2.
holy which was, is and come, the past, present and
future. And that this God, this creator of all things,
is holy and deserves to be worshipped.
we continue on in chapter 5 to see that I
beheld, John says, the right indiscernible! that sat
on the throne a book or a scroll sealed with seven
seals. Notice it's written on the inside and the
backside. Well, the meaning of these things kind of
will be speculated until we have solid proof. In other
words, unless we were there ourselves to see it in
detail.
But what we are allowed to see in the
scripture is John also beholds a might angel in this
throne room where all these angels, thousands, ten
thousand and thousands and thousands are called
together. And this mighty angel questions all in
heaven. Who is worthy to open this book, and to loose
the seven seals thereof. Clearly scripture states no
man in heaven, neither on earth, neither under the
earth. Of course, buried. In other words, we do have
dead in this world, you know? was worthy to open
neither to look thereon. So hey, God says in scripture
at least John testifies in scripture that the mystery
of God, his book is sealed.
well, what happens is as we continue on we
see in Chapter 5 that John begins to weep until one of
O 0 2.
the elders says weep not, John. Behold, the Lion of
the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to
open the book, and to loose the seals thereof. Of
which we know the lamb being a symbol of Christ is
brought to view. And
slain in the midst of
the elders with seven
what's the meaning ofJohn beheld a lamb as it had been
the throne of the four beasts and
eyes and seven horns. Well,
these things?
RACHEL: They're back.
TAPE: If God does have a revelation
indiscernible!. Tape continues playing.!
JIM: Rachel?
RACHEL: Yes. They made it back.
JIM: They made it back.
RACHEL: Um-hum.
JIM: Okay, super. Let's see. We still got
a half hour on that tape.
RACHEL: Um-hum.
JIM: Is --
Okay?we've got to move the buses.
RACHEL: Um-hum. Just a minute. Let me see
if he wants to talk to you.
JIM: Okay. Steve. Okay.
RACHEL: David. Do you want to talk to him?
Because he wants to talk about moving the buses.
JIM: They're going to come up.
[969]
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
the message.
STEVE
JIM:
pressure.U 23
Hello, Jim?
Steve?
Yeah.
Did you get it?
Yeah, we've got it in here right now.
All right. I know David's listening to
Yeah, he is.
You know, I'm concerned about his blood
STEVE: Right. That's why, you know, right,
that's why I wanted to get it in here right away also.
JIM:
situated and --
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
or so, you know
STEVE
JIM:Right. While you're getting him
Okay.
-- preparing in there.
Right.
We're going to have four buses --
Okay.
-- move from the Farm Road, 2491 --
Okay.
-- up, up the Ranch Road about halfway
Okay.
Okay? There will be a couple of those
I U 2.
vehicles, the security vehicles.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
is is the buses
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
that while you're, you know,Okay?
That's fine.
Just so nobody shoots them.
Right.
Okay. Tell your guys that's all this
and the escort.
Okay. Okay.
Okay?
Right.
And pass the word. And we'll, we'll do
talking to Rach and David
on the stretcher, whatever.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM:Now is David going to lead you out?
STEVE: We're going to carry him out.
JIM:
with, withYou're going to carry him out. But
STEVE: It will probably take a few people to
do it. Because, you know, he weighs a little bit here.
JIM:
and --Yeah. Yeah. About four, you know,
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM:- get a group together and --
STEVE: Yeah. That's probably true. That's
C U 25
probably best.
second.JIM: And, and anybody who is hold on a
STEVE: Okay.
[9aP]
JIM: Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
JIM: I got the commanders calling me.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Can I call you back in a minute?
STEVE: Yes. I'm going to be down, I'm going
to be down at the other end of the building. But I'll
come right back. So if it rings and someone talks to
you for a minute, I want to talk to you then.
JIM: Okay, good.
STEVE: Okay, thanks.
JIM: Okay, see you.
STEVE: Okay, bye.
>92'**
RACHEL: Hello?
JIM: Rachel?
RACHEL: Yes.
JIM: This is Jim.
RACHEL: Okay.
JIM: How you doing?
RACHEL: Okay.
O U 2.
JIM: Is Steve back?
RACHEL: Yeah. But he's not right here this
minute.
JIM: Okay.
RACHEL: Where did he go? We'll have to get
him for you, okay?
JIM: Okay. I'll hold.
RACHEL: Can someone go get Steve?
[9aP]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He'S down at the
end of the hall.
[9aP]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: You can put
them in there.
[9aP]
RACHEL: Is he coming? Hurry up. Did
somebody go get him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Get who?
RACHEL: Steve.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes.
RACHEL: Is he coming? Unidentified voices
in background not discernible.!
[9aP]
RACHEL: Is Steve coming? Unidentified
voices in background not discernible.!
[gap]
" |! 27
STEVE: Hello, Jim?
JIM: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: Hey. How you doing?
STEVE: Okay. I'm doing real well.
JIM: I guess what probably we need to do is
get everyone ready.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: To start to move out, you know, when
everything's set.
stuff.STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Because of David's blood pressure and
STEVE: Right. Here's what we were thinking
about doing.
JIM: Well, wait. Let, let me tell you how
we're going to do it.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Okay? Let me tell you how we're going
to do it so everybody's just as safe and sound as
possible
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: I've got my buses ready, okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: And we have an armored ambulance.
STEVE: Okay.
" |! 2a
JIM: Okay, for David. Okay? Now it looks
like that other thing, but it's inside it's an
ambulance.
STEVE: Right.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: well, we got a few others, two that
we wanted to get taken care of too, you know. They,
they probably need a doctor's help too.
JIM: Oh, I'll take care of them. As long as
they can walk.
STEVE: Well, there's a couple that can't.
JIM: Okay. Well -- okay. Okay. We thought
it was just David. We'll work it out.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: We'll work it out.
STEVE: Well, here's what I was thinking
about doing. We're going to take David about halfway
there with some of the children and the babies. We
wanted to go back. And then I'll get the wounded and
the women and everybody and bring them out. How is
that?
JIM: Well, let's talk about that a minute.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Let me see if I could bring -- can we
take David out as one of the first group with the
children.
O 9 .9
STEVE: Well, they kind of wanted to be --
you know, they all like -- you know what they think of
him and everything. They all wanted to kind of be with
him.
JIM: Yeah. Well, we have to - yeah, we
have to take him out
STEVE: Right.
JIM: - in this ambulance. Now here's what
we'll do.
STEVE: Okay. But, but the, the other
wounded wanted to be with him, you know, and get all
hospitalization and everything --
JIM: Oh, we're going to get that. It's
going to be just a few minutes. I mean some, some of
you --
STEVE: But, but can, can we do it that way?
It's our last, you know, our last chance to be with him
really.
JIM: Sure. Well, sure. Can they walk?
STEVE: A couple of them - well, you know,
we can like put our put their arms over our
shoulders and such.
JIM: well, no -- okay. If they can't walk I
mean --
STEVE: Well, you know, they're not like he
is, you know. They're not that bad where, you know,
O U .0
they need a stretcher or anything like that.
JIM: Yeah. Okay. They can walk then?
STEVE: Yeah, they can walk. You know, but
with a little assistance, you know, like a guy under
each arm.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Like in fact, one of them you were
talking with there, you know, a little while ago. And
his leg, you know, his leg is bad and everything I
guess.
JIM: All right. Hold, hold on a second.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Don't cut off. Let me check with the
commanders on how we'll arrange that. Okay, Steve?
Hold on.
STEVE: Okay. Yeah.
CHILD: I'm afraid they might shoot the car.
Are they trying to get everyone not hurt out of the
room, and then they're going to fire? Unidentified
voices in background not discernible.!
TAPE: I guess whatever Christ says those who
hear will find very haunting. Therefore God is lest ye
forever. well, gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most
mighty? Is Christ the most mighty? with thy
indiscernible! thy majesty? I mean it seems like in
Revelation all in heaven bowed before the lamb, did
9 9 .1
they not? That's a lot of glory. But I'll explain.
Received power, honor, glory, riches, wisdom, kingdom,
might. Oh, that's a lot of inheritance there.
Especially the gospel says I received all things my
Father. Says indiscernible! because of truth.
So what could this truth be? Some truths in
the Bible talks about riding a horse prosperously and
its truth. Could it be revelations? Could it be the
first seal? Maybe a truth about Christ? Maybe a truth
about him being a king indiscernible! crown. Could it
be a truth about him having a horse riding conquering
into conquerors? Huh. Indiscernible.! Tape
continues playing.!
JIM: Steve? Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
JIM: Hey, this is Jim.
STEVE: Yes, Jim.
JIM: Okay. Listen. Here's, here's what we
want to do. We want you to get four guys that will
carry David, okay?
STEVE: YGS.
JIM: Now, you can get some children to come
with him if you like.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Okay. What I'm going to do is I'm
going to move this armored ambulance --
STEVE:
JIM:
STEVE:
JIM:
David and9 32
Uhhuh.
- up by the driveway.
Right.
Okay. Now these four men will carry
whatever children you want --
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: -- out the driveway.
STEVE: Well --
JIM: Well
STEVE: --
Because you know --
JIM: Okay
STEVE: --
know, a lot of these
stiff. You know that
JIM: Yeah.can I, can I just say something?
I want to just say this. That you
people are still, they're scared
STEVE: That's why they're - here's what
they were hoping.
JIM: I know. We'll --
STEVE: Okay, can I just say?
JIM: Yeah, go ahead.
STEVE: Okay, thanks. The four of us will do
okay. You said four, that's fine. Okay, the four of
us will carry him out. We were going to put him just
halfway, because they're watching. You know, there's
some here that are so scared to leave the building.
j
I U 33
And, and I want to show them that hey, I trust in you
already.
I says look, I walked down there and I came
back. I already told them, I says look. We've been
dealing with Jim all this time. But they're sitting
there shaking. So we - what we were going to do is
just bring him, you know, halfway. Put him down with
the children. And then I'm going to come back and say
look, come out.
And in fact, there's a lot of the women that
have no problems, you know. So then when they see that
he's still okay and everything, that's when we're going
to bring the other wounded with and just bring them all
to the gate.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Is that okay?
JIM: Well, we, we want you to stay in there
and not be one of the four as a leader and to calm
everyone.
STEVE: Well, he kind of -- because, you
know, I'm his good friend and everything --
JIM: Oh, I understand but --
STEVE: -- he wanted -- he asked me if I
wouldn't be one of them that would bring, take him.
And I says I'd be, I'd be happy --
JIM: But we don't feel comfortable dealing
" I 34
with anybody but you if he's not there. You know,
you're the --
STEVE: Well
JIM: -- you're the leader and --
STEVE: Right.
JIM: -- we need you to kind of stay there.
David can go out -- I mean you can watch it. And you
stay there and facilitate --
STEVE: Well, you know, he -- well, he
requested that I do that.
JIM: Well, well, I'm requesting that you do
it the other way. Would you ask him?
STEVE: Well, just a minute.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: He's asking that I stay back because
they trust me, and they want to be communicating with
me.
DAVID: Okay.
STEVE: Really? Okay. He says that's okay.
JIM: That's okay. Okay, good. That will,
that will help us. Because then --
STEVE: All right.
JIM: -- you and I can talk, okay?
STEVE: Right.
JIM: Okay. So what we're going to do is we
move the ambulance in.
O U .5
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: You, you pick four of your guys. Now
nobody that's injured. Just pick four able-bodied men.
STEVE: Right. Okay. Right. Right.
JIM: Okay. No firearms.
STEVE: No, no. No. They won't --
positively not.
JIM: Okay. And then they carry David and
whatever children you want --
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: -- all the way out to the driveway,
okay?
STEVE: But he requested because, you know,
they're all crying to him, he requested that they take
him halfway and let him sit there with the children
until the rest can come, and then they want to walk
together.
JIM: Well --
STEVE: They're, they're - Jim, you know,
you got to, you know, they're scared.
JIM: Oh, I, I understand.
STEVE: I mean they really are. And in fact,
we're trying to figure out -- we in fact originally we
were trying to couple things. And they're all shaking
here and saying no, I want to be, you know, and --
JIM: Yeah.
" 36
STEVE: And that's why what you're suggesting
I like it. But can we do, at least do the one thing
then? Just at least leave him halfway until we can get
the like the, the wounded guys and all that? Because
they should come out, too, right away. But, but I like
the idea of, you know, him with the children. I think
that's a good idea. Because --
JIM: Oh, yeah.
STEVE: it will show trust then, you know,
that we have trust in you --
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: -- and that it's working out okay.
Is, is that -- just that part at least? Because I mean
I'm looking at some of their eyes right now. And you
know, they're scared --
JIM: Well, David and you can, can, you know,
agree with me. And then we can explain it to everyone
and, and they can understand it. And we appreciate
their concern. And I'm what I'm, we're so concerned
that it go smoothly we don't want any --
STEVE: Exactly.
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: That's, that's -- oh, believe me,
that's the main concern. That's the main concern.
JIM: Okay. All right.
STEVE: So what we'll do then is like you --
I U 37
1 JIM: Well, all right. Let me, let me talk
2 to the commanders and, and one --
3 STEVE: Okay. Thanks, Jim.
4 JIM: be one second, okay?
5 STEVE: Okay, sure.
6 JIM: Hey, just hang on.
7 STEVE: I Will. I am.
8 TAPE: Hosea seems to say the word is that
9 you're not high people there should be said. You're
10 the sons of the living God. So indiscernible! says in
11 the gospel if he calls him God, indiscernible! the
12 laws not be broken. Well, learning God's word and
13 God's spirit, this is what makes us become born again.
14 Born by the spirit, acknowledging God.
15 Well, so, so a girl believes in God. So does
16 everybody else that believes in God. So therefore God
17 the Father has many children, doesn't he? Christ being
18 the firstborn and thereon, everything, all thereafter
19 did believe. But instead of my father should be my
20 children. And thou mayest make princes in all the
21 earth.
22 To the person that doesn't really understand
23 scripture, this would seem to be a very controversial
24 subject. I mean Christ never had any wife. Has to be
25 spiritual. I will make thy name remembered in all
generations; therefore shall the people praise thee for
I 38
ever and ever. Well, even if it is spiritual we know
one thing. We, the servants of God, know that Psalm 45
is the very prophecy which must be hereafter according
to the first seal.
But just to make sure we know it's going to
be fulfilled, let's turn in our Bibles to Revelation 19
just so we can get a better caption of what we are
really looking at. Now remember, in the 18th chapter
of Revelation, we know that Babylon the great fall.
She made all nations drink of some kind of wine of the
wrath of her fornication. Now we find that something
very bad happened.
And at verse 23 of chapter 18, no more light
of a candle shall shine there nor the voice of the
bridegroom or the voice of the bride. well, the
merchants were the great men of the earth it says in
verse 23. And for their, by thy sorceries were all
nations deceived. We all know about capitalization.
We know about advertisement, selling something, making
it better than what it really is.
And in her was found the blood of prophets,
and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the
earth. You see, just because people don't accept the
truth in God's word does not mean it's not true.
There's some truth that we might teach could get us in
trouble.
PI, " 39
But anyway, the first chapter 19 it says and
after these things I heard a great voice of much people
in the heaven, saying, alleluia, Salvation, and glory,
and honor, and power to the Lord our God. Why? For
true and righteous are his judgments. I wonder
indiscernible!. Tape continues playing.!
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVESteve?
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
Let me ask you this.
Okay.
Four guys with David.
Right.
About six children.
Okay.
You know. And we can
Wait just a minute.allow you --
Let me -- can I
ask him -- he doesn't know about the children thing.
Can I mention that?
JIM:Okay. Yeah.
STEVE: Because --
JIM: It's your choice. I --
STEVE: Okay. Oh, I see. Okay. Just a
minute, okay?
JIM: Yeah. Mike had the messages.
I I 40
[9aP]
STEVE: Yeah, I guess he'd like them all.
You know, I mean because that's his real love so.
JIM: He want's -- well, okay. Now we can't
take every single child there. We'd like to have about
six.
STEVE: Well, you, you, I -- you couldn't
handle them all? There's, really there's --
JIM: All right.
STEVE: - let's see. How many here? I'm
trying to look at them right now. Did they give you a
count already?
JIM: Okay. Okay. We'll take all the kids
if they walk --
STEVE: Yeah. Because there's not that --
they're, you know. I think you could handle them.
Unidentified male voice in background not
discernible.!
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Pardon?
JIM: Okay. Here's, here's what we'll do.
STEVE: Okay. Here's what he's going to do.
What do you think of this?
JIM: Well, let me, let me --
STEVE: Can I just mention it to you? And
then you can roll it over --
now the
of time
take do
one bus
do it.I O 41
JIM: Yeah, sure. Go ahead.
STEVE: Okay. He said he'll send out right
children that aren't his. Just right now ahead
even. How is that?
JIM: No, because the buses aren't there yet.
STEVE: Oh, okay. Well, how long would it
you think? Do you think one you think like
could get those maybe?
JIM: Well, let me give you a suggestion.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Okay? And this is how we'd prefer to
Now this is working along with your plans.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Okay? We have maybe two groups of
kids, okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: In the first group, have David with his
children, okay? And four able-bodied men that are
carrying him.
STEVE: Umhum.
JIM: They all walk together.
STEVE: But see, some of his kids are like
little babies, you know. Or you know, they're small.
You're talking like a year old. And they're all in
there, a year, two, three.
JIM: Well, okay.
O I 42
STEVE: That's why we're thinking about
sending a few guys, you know. And of course, you know
that we're all clean. You know that ahead of time of
course.
JIM:
the babies.Okay. As long as it's women carrying
STEVE: Oh, boy. They're he says as long
as it's women carrying the babies. But they're,
they're scared.
JIM:
know.
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
Okay.
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
stretcher.
STEVE
the stretcher.
JIM:Well, they'll all be together, you
What do you think?
Yeah, it's okay. Just want to --
Yeah, he says we'll work it out then.
Okay, yeah, it will work.
Okay.
Okay, it will work. Now listen.
Okay, okay. I'm listening.
Okay. Here's how we'll do it.
All right.
Four able-bodied men, David on the
Okay. Four ablebodied men, him on
Got it.
Any, any amount of children you want
O U .3
with him.
STEVE
with.
JIM:
STEVE
carried, okay.
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
adult females -
STEVE
fine.
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
driveway.
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
about him?
JIM:
I'll give you a
STEVE
JIM:Any amount of children that he wants
Any children that have to be carried.
Or any children that have to be
will be carried by a woman.
Will be carried by a woman.
Now you've got to tell me how many
He's agreeing to it. He says that's
Okay. Now --
Okay.
they will -- when we agree and --
Okay.
- tell you they will walk down the
Right.
And walk to the buses.
Okay. Walk down the well, what
Well, you're going to you can --
choice. You can carry him --
Okay.
if you want to all the way to the
O I .4
buses.
STEVE: Okay .
JIM: If not, I'll have the armored ambulance
at the driveway.
STEVE: Okay. Carried down to the gate did
you say it at first?
JIM: Yeah .
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Can leave the armored ambulance there.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: And then you can carry him to the, to
the street.
STEVE: All right.
JIM: Lay him gently down.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Okay. Then the four men and the
children will start to walk to the bus. Okay? And
then --
STEVE: Okay, so --
JIM: -- and then we'll, and then we'll put
David in the ambulance.
STEVE: Okay. He's suggesting they carry,
the four men carry you to the ambulance waiting at the
gate with the women bringing the children along. Is
that what you said?
JIM: Yeah. It's your, it's your choice. In
other words --
STEVE
JIM:
buses --
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
toward the busesO .5
Okay.
-- you can walk them all the way to the
He says, he said that would be fine.
with the ambulance?
Yeah.
Okay. Now what will happen --
Okay.
when they lay him down --
When they lay him down.
-- the four men will walk down the
STEVE: The four men will walk down toward
the buses.
JIM: With all but say three children.
STEVE: with all but three children.
JIM: And then David and three children --
STEVE: Okay.
JIM:
to the buses.-- will -- of course, the women will go
STEVE: Do you want to talk? I think maybe
you should be talking.
JIM: Yeah. Let me talk to David.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Yeah. Let me talk to him.
, 0 0 ..
STEVE: Pardon?
JIM: Can I talk to David?
STEVE: He's, he's asking to talk to you.
Okay. Here he is.
JIM: Okay. Thanks, Steve.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Hey, David. Listen. Here's how we'll
do it.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Four able-bodied men will carry you in
the stretcher.
DAVID: All right.
JIM: You have your children around you, as
many as you want.
DAVID: Uh-huh .
JIM: Any small children that have to be
carried like babies can have a woman carrying them.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Okay? You have your choice. I'll give
you two options, and you tell me which one, okay? You
can walk out the driveway down the road all the way to
the buses, okay? Which will be down the Ranch Road a
little ways by the water tower.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Or I'll have an armored ambulance
parked at the driveway, okay? And they can drop -- lay
I U .7
you gently on the road next to the armored ambulance,
and you can say have three children stay with you. I
don't want you to be alone. But you can have three
children stay with you. Then the four men, the other
children and the women will start walking slowly in a
group, together for support. And we know, you know, so
they feel good, down toward the ambulance. I mean --
I'm sorry. Down toward the buses. And then we'll have
the agents put, pick up David, put him on the
ambulance. The children will get on with David. And
the ambulance will slowly just follow the walking
group. Okay?
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: So you got two choices. You can have
them walk you to the buses which is fine, or you can
have the ambulance which is fine. You tell me what you
want to do.
DAVID: Well, the ambulance is armored,
right?
JIM: Yes.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: You want to do that?
DAVID: Yeah. Because that, you know, that
makes sure I'm more safer too.
JIM: Okay. And we want Steve to stay inside
on the telephone.
I O .8
DAVID: Oh, okay.
JIM: You know, until
DAVID: Negotiate, riwe get everyone --
ght.
JIM: Yeah, to come out. You know, you
coming out is the big thing. B
be the leader. And the, the pe
know, they want to be with you.
just coordinate with us to get
safely. And we'll reunite you
buses.
DAVID: All right.
JIM: Is that okay?
DAVID: That's fine.
JIM: Okay. Now tell
got -- what we're going to work
is moving the armored ambulance
DAVID: Okay. You're
JIM: So when they --ecause you're going to
ople will follow. You
And then Steve will
the last person out
all, you know, at the
everybody we'll get, we
on the next few minutes
and the buses. Okay?
going --
DAVID: -- to bring those up then now, right?
JIM: Yeah. It will take us a few minutes.
But when you see it, you know, don't come out. We got
to get on the phone first.
DAVID: Oh, okay.
JIM: You know. Just so we have no mistakes.
If you see the armored ambulance pull up, you can call
H16.
not as craDAVID
JIM:
DAVID
zy as
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:U .9
Okie doke.
Hey, your message got out great.
Well, at least now people realize I'm
they thought.
Hey. You're not crazy at all.
Thanks.
And your message was great.
Yeah, okay.
You guys feel good --
Appreciate it, Jim. God bless you.
And, and once, once this process
starts, you tell Steve, you know, that me and him will
stay on an open line to protect everybody.
me DOW .DAVID.
JIM:
DAVID:
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:Okie doke.
Okay. All right. Hang in there with
Thanks.
All right, David.
God bless you. Bye.
All right. Bye.
End of tape 15.!