APPEARANCES:

1 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OTHER APPEARANCES: OIG CASE #: NONE 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AUGUST 5, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 3 4 1 : The recorder is on. My 1 name? To start, wain, I am 00]/OIC Senior 2 name is , and I am a senior 2 Special Agent . M-A-T-U-L-E- 3 special agent with the U.S. Department of 3 W-I-C-Z. 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 4 MR. : This is DOJ/OIG Special Agent 5 York Field Office, and these are my 5 D-A-N-I-E-L. And these are my 6 credentials. 6 credentials. 7 : Thank you. 7 : Thank you, sir. 8 : All right. And this 8 And can you say and spell 9 interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons 9 your name for the record, and your position 10 emplo ee - is it ? 10 title? 11 . 11 : Okay. Senior officer 12 ? 12 atcialist. First name Last name 13 : Yes. 13 IIII. C-A-L-E. 14 , is being conducted 14 That's fine. We'll ask 15 as part of an official U.S. Department of 15 you more later. And how do you spell your 16 Justice, Office of the Inspector General 16 first name? 17 (DOJ/OIG) investigation. Today's date is 17 : K-I-M-A-N-A. 18 August Sth, 2021, and the time is 2:34 p.m. 18 Okay. Thank you, sir. 19 This interview is being conducted at the 19 This is an official DOJ/OIG investigation into 20 Metropolitan Correctional Center, or the MCC, 20 the death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and the 21 located in New York, New York. Also present is 21 surrounding circumstances, and you are being 22 DOJ/OIG Special Agent . This 22 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 23 interview will be recorded by me, SSA 23 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 24 . Could everyone please identify 24 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 25 themselves for the record, and spell your last 25 : Yes. EFTA00113283 S 1 Thank you, sir. This is 2 a form that we give to our voluntary - or to 3 our employees who are requested to provide 4 information on a voluntary basis. It says, 5 United States Department of Justice, Office of 6 the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances 7 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 8 a Voluntary Basis. "You are being asked to 9 provide information as part of an investigation 10 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 11 General. This investigation is being conducted 12 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 13 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 14 performance failure and security failure. This 15 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 16 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 17 action will be taken against you if do not 18 choose to answer our questions. Any statements 19 you furnish may be used as evidence in any 20 future criminal proceedings, or agency 21 disciplinary proceedings, or both." And 22 there's a waiver section. It says, "I 23 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 24 above and I am willing to make a statement and 25 answer questions. No promises or threats have 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me." So, you can take a look, if you'd like, at this form. And if you agree with it and understand it, you can sign where it says employee signature, and then print your name where it says employee's name. There you go (Indiscernible *00:02:51) if you'd like. : Okay. Okay. You said sign my name ri ht here? : Yeah. Where it says employee signature. And then, you can just print your name underneath, where it says -. Okay. My full name? MR. : Yes. • Yes, please. Thank you, sir. Okay. And I am signing where it says signature of Office of the Inspector General Again, this is Special Agent, and I am rintin my name below. . The date is 8/S/21, and the time is -- MR. : 2:38. MR. : 38. 7 1 -- :38 p.m. Place, at 2 MCC, New York. Special Agent , can you 3 please siiiiiiithe witness? 4 MR. : This is Agent , signing 5 as the witness. 6 7 form? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. You understand 10 this is voluntary. You can choose to leave at 11 any time. Thank you. Before star." I'd 12 like to place you under oath. , could 13 you please raise your right hand? Do you swear 14 to tell the truth and nothing but the truth 15 durin this interview? 16 : Yes. 17 Thank you, sir. Please 18 let me know if you don't understand any 19 questions. I will repeat it or try to rephrase 20 it. Okay? is our current home address? 21 22 (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:26 23 Zip code is 24 25 that's in Newark? Did you understand that • Thank you, sir. And 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Newark, New Jersey. : Okay. And what is your date of birth? 8 30/1975. : And what is your SSN? : The last four or the whole thing? The last four is fine. P cell hone number? 8 And what is your current And what is your highest level of education? Hi h school. : High school. And where did you o to high school? : Malcom X Shabazz. Newark, New Jersei : And when did you graduate high school? 1993. : Thank you, sir. And what did yiiiiiiiiior to working for the BOP? : I used to work for private EFTA00113284 9 10 1 corrections, CCA. Corrections Corporation of 2 America. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . Okay. Great. Now, do military service? . No, sir. And how long have you served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? February will be 20 years. : Okay. Great. Do you remember our entry on duty date? I=I February 10th of 2002. : Thank you, sir. And do you recall when you graduated from BOP trainin around, like, the - even the year? : I can't. I don't remember. Would it have been right away, in 2002? : No. It was a little later. : But you've attended it? Yes. : And that is correctional officer training down at FLETC? Yes. : Okay. Great. And what is your current position with the BOP? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 specialist. : I'm a senior officer And what does that position entail? : It just means that, you know, I've worked every post, and I've been on -. Worked about every post, and I'm a little bit more trained than the people that's now getting hired. Okay. So, and it's in the custody side of the house? : Yes. Okay. Great. What is your iiiiiiiivel? : My grade level is eight, step ten. : Great. Thank you. And are you familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? Yes. : Was he housed within the MCC in Jul and August of 2019? : I believe so, but I'm not too sure. Because E stein wasn't a big deal to me. : Okay. And what do you mean by that? 11 1 : Meaning that, he's just - he 2 was somebody that was being processed through 3 the federal government for committing a crime. 4 : Okay. What about after 5 the fact, that knowing, you know, how much news 6 attention and everything that had been placed 7 upon it, did you think it became a little bit 8 bigger of a deal then? 9 : I guess it was a big deal of 10 how, you know, the job was treating them. You 11 know? Meaning that, you know, he was a high- 12 profile inmate, he shad - you know - he shad 13 been on Ten South, or he shad been on suicide 14 watch. 15 : Okay. And you're saying 16 that based upon the fact that he killed 17 himself? 18 : Yes. 19 : Okay. And we can get 20 into that more later. What was your position 21 at the MCC in July and August of 2019? 22 : If I remember correctly, I was 23 internal number two. 24 : Okay. I'm sorry. Were 25 you a senior officer specialist --1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 Yes. -- as well? Perfect. And they're the same duties and responsibilities that you just described? Basically, like, a very knowled eable correctional officer? : Yes. Yes. About that. Yeah. Okay. Did you have any interactions or involvement with Epstein during his stay at MCC? No. No. Did you even communicate with him at all? No. : Did you see him at all? : I seen him once. I think he was down on suicide watch. One time. : Okay. And were you workiiiiiiiiiicide watch? No. I think I was activities, maybe. So, I had to go through, sign the logbook, maybe. I don't -. I can't remember what post, or what post I was on, or maybe I was internal. You know, and, you know, we have a shortage of staff. So, I wear many different titles during the day. EFTA00113285 13 1 : Sure. 2 : So, I can't really tell you how 3 I saw him that particular day, but I know I did 4 see him. 5 : Okay. So, when he was on 6 suicide watch, you remember, you know, you have 7 acted as the activities lieutenant, though, in 8 the past? 9 : Yes. 10 : Okay. Great. 11 : But that day, I can't remember 12 what 13 : Sure. Do you happen to 14 remember if you worked at the MCC on August 9th 15 and 10th of 2019? The day leading up to and the 16 day he was - the day of - finding him in his 17 cell? 18 : Yeah. I believe so. The day 19 of? I was certainly here. The day before? I 20 can't remember. 21 : Okay. Great. Do you 22 know what you were doing that day? And I have a 23 duty a ent - I have a -- 24 : Uh-huh. 25 : I'm going to give you 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 the dail : I was -. • -- receipt, and I'll try to -. Here you go, and here is the daily assignment roster for both Friday, August 9th, 2019, and Saturday, August 10th, 2019. I have taken the liberty of just highlighting your name next -- Okay. -- position title. : Control one. And internal number two. So, on August 9th, you were control number one, and then, August -. : No, now, which one is the day of? And so, we got the day leadin' to it will be the 9th. • Okay. And that's where it says that Control one. Yes. -- you were control one. Okay. And that says that you were control one from 4:00 p.m. until midnight? 15 1 : Yes. 2 : Okay. Great. And then, 3 the following day, it says Saturday, August 4 10th, 2019. You were internal number two, on 5 overtime, from midnight through 8:00 a.m.? 6 : Yes. 7 : Perfect. Thank you, sir. 8 And I'm just going to keep this here, in case 9 we ask ou about anything -- 10 : Okay. 11 : -- with regard to, you 12 know, either you or other people that were 13 working on that, on that day. So, as - let's 14 do it one at a time - as August 9th, 2019, you 15 state that you were control number one. What 16 did those duties and responsibilities entail? 17 : Okay. For control number one? 18 : Control number one. 19 Correct. 20 : The duties entail -. 21 : And specifically, we're 22 talking about for that shift, for the 4:00 to 23 midniiiiiiiiit. 24 : Okay. 4:00 p.m. to midnight 25 shift. Duties entail of just, you know, being 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 the eves and the ears for the lieutenant. Okay. : We reviewed the camera, and we watched the cameras a little bit. We popped doors. We answered phones. If anybody is calling, asking about their loved ones that are incarcerated here. So, you're in the control center, correct? Yes. : Are you one of two officers in the control center? Yes. : All right. So, what is the difference between what the control number one officer does, and the control number two officer does? : Okay. Control number one officer. Control number one officer actually, you know, popped the doors, do all the paperwork. : Okay. So, when you say paperwork, like, if they're counts, you fill out tiiiiiiiiwork? : Not the counts. That's the CNA EFTA00113286 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 officer, or the internal unit two officer. The control officer, the control officers handles the door, the popping of the doors, listening to the radios. Answer it. Okay. And so, and who actually is supposed to take care of the counts, then, during that time? The counts are CNA. Or now/internal two. Okay. And what does CNA stand for? : CNA is - what is that - Counts. Oh, it's been a long time since I had to, like, pronounce the abbreviation for CNA. But CNA is Is that somebody that's listed on this sheet? : -- internal number two. : Oh, so, CNA is internal number two? Yes. : Okay. So, in this case, it's : Yes. : All right. So, he 18 1 actually would be the person that's supposed to 2 be doin the counts? 3 : Yes. 4 : All right. And what 5 about for, on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, for 6 internal number two, from midnight through 8:00 7 a.m. What were your duties and 8 responsibilities? 9 : Yes. That was me, internal 10 number two. My duties was to generate the 11 count. Generate the PPE1. Make any moves, if 12 any inmates move from one unit to the next 13 unit. Answer the hones. 14 : So, when you say inmates 15 move from one unit to the next unit, do you 16 mean, like keying them into different -- 17 : Yes. Keying them into -- 18 -- so, keying them out of 19 one, and ke ing -- 20 -- key them out of a -- 21 -- into the other. 22 -- out of a housing unit, and 23 movin them to the next. 24 : Okay. So, not the actual 25 physical movement -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 Yes. -- you're talking about electronically. Electronical. : Okay. In the BOP databases. Yes. : Perfect. So -. : And also, my duties are to actually go upstairs and do the count. To help out internal with the count. : Okay. So, not only are you taking the count and filling out the paperwork, but you're actually physically going somewhere? Yes. : And where are you going to? : I have to go - at that time - I had to count Nine North, and unit two. Okay. And then, so, I know Nine South. What is Nine North? Nine North is a housing unit. : Okay. So, just a normal, regular general pop housing --1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 Yes. -- housing unit? Okay. So, that's what you were doing in that specific date? Yes. : Or is that always the internal number two goes and counts Nine North? : Yeah. That's how they have internal number two set up for their post. So, always counting the same housing units, every -- : Yeah. -- every shift? : Basically, we help out internal. If you was working as the internal officer, and you needed my help to, you know, because Jou know that I'm supposed to help you. Okay. : You would say, hey, IIII, I need you to count nine and two, or just say, I need you to count both sides of 11. Gotcha. Okay. I'm - So, you're basically the EFTA00113287 21 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Yeah. -- control number - I mean, is it control number one, that we're talking about? Control number two. Control number one is kind of, like, in charge -- : Yeah. -- and then, control number two -- : Control number one -- -- is the assistant. -- do not leave control. : Control number one stays in there the whole time? Yes. : Okay. Control number two actually is the one that -. Okay. So, the person who is control number -. Control number one doesn't leave? Yes. : All right. So, you wouldn't have left then on Friday, August 9th. You would have been in there the whole time? : Yeah. 1 : During your shift. 2 : Yes. 3 : And then, you're saying 4 that on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, when you 5 were internal number two, that's when you would 6 have left your shift, and helped with the 7 counts? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. But as their 10 internal number two, you were actually taking 11 the counts and writing in the documentation? 12 : I'm taking count, and also, I'm 13 going upstairs to actually physically do the 14 count. 15 : Okay. 16 : In two houses. 17 : All right. But as 18 control number one, the day before, you weren't 19 actually supposed to be involved with the 20 counts? 21 : No. The only thing I do is sit 22 there. Once you complete the count and you 23 tell me, and we have a good verbal, I announce 24 it on the radio, I log it in the logbook, and 25 then, you say, clear count. I announce it on 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 the radio. Write it in the logbook. Clear count. : Okay. And on these dates - and I'm sorry to pop back and forth - but on Friday, August 9th, 2019, when you were control number one, who would you be primarily be workiniati? : At that time, shortage of staff, ou could have any -. : I mean, on this specific No. -- date. : You have a different partner almost every lain this specific be working with , if he was in - if he was internal number two. : Okay. So, the two of you would be working together? : Yeah. But I really don't think I was with that day. I think it was Marrugo, and then, he went home, because Marrugo goes home at 10:00. Because I was workin with Marru o, and then he went home. : When did he go home? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 : I think he went home at 10:00. : At 10:00? : And I -- : So then -. -- probably was in there by myself for a few, but I can't remember. I can't remember. No, that makes a lot of sense. We're going to go over the actual counts because you actually took the count at 10:00 '.m. : Okay. : So, that makes sense. So, was he supposed to go home, or he had to go home -? Yes. He's supposed to go home. : Okay. So, at the 10:00 p.m. count, then, as control number one, you actuaiiiiiiii it -? : Yeah. Like, when you're in there by yourself, and there's a shortage of staffyou of to lay both roles. : Okay. At 10:00 p.m., though, was there supposed to be two people in there? EFTA00113288 25 1 : Yeah. Until 10:00 p.m. 2 : So, that's what I mean. 3 So, like, at the 10:00 p.m., are you -. Only 4 until 10:00 p.m. So, but at 10:00 p.m., the 5 count happens after the person - control number 6 two - leaves. Right? 7 : Yes. So, control number two is 8 supposed to print up everything, and since he's 9 off duty at 10:00, I will take the paperwork 10 that he enerated and do the count for him. 11 : Okay. So, control number 12 one is actually responsible for the 10:00 p.m. 13 count. Correct? 14 : Control number one is not 15 responsible for the count. But if - I mean, if 16 you are in there by yourself, now that's your 17 second 'ob. 18 : Okay. So, who is 19 responsible for it, then? 20 : Whoever is supposed to be 21 posted CNA. So, I'm -. Okay. It's two 22 different. Like, see here, we have a lot of 23 job titles that kind of, like, they took from 24 us. CNA is supposed to be a post. CNA is 25 supposed to be a post that goes in at whatever 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 time control goes in. At this time, when he was on eights, when he was on eights, every shift was 8:00 to 12:00, 12:00 -. My fault. 8:00 to 4:00, 4:00 to 12:00, and then, 12:00 to 8:00. When CNA comes in for evening watch, evening watch is 4:00 to 12:00. 4:00 to 12:00. When evening watch comes in, control one comes in, control two comes in. Now, somebody, you know, had a big idea and said, hey, you need to, you know, we need to stop generating money. We need to modify the hours. So, we don't need two people in control. So, they modified the hours, and made control number two. Yeah. : From that time. : Right. So, at this : So, I think this is, what, 2:00 So -- E- : -- 2:00 to 10:00 -- 2:00 to 10:00 -- : - now? -- Correct. So, that's where I'm saying, it's, like, if they're 27 1 leavin at 10:00 -- 2 : Yes. 3 -- and the count is being' 4 conducted at 10:00, and they usually get, you 5 know, they leave usually a couple minutes 6 before, too. It sounds like, at this time, on 7 August 9th -- 8 : Now, I -- 9 : -- you would have been 10 the one -- 11 : -- took the count. 12 : -- who took the count. 13 : Yes. 14 : So, that's where I just 15 want to make sure we're not getting -. Because 16 I'm getting confused with all this. 17 : Yeah. 18 : So, on August 9th, 2019, 19 as control number one, you would have taken the 20 count? 21 : Yes. If my name is on that 22 form, I took the count. 23 : Right. And no one else 24 would have been in there with you to take that 25 count --1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 No. -- it would have just been you? Okay. All right. Because I was getting confused. All right. And then, as far as on August 10th, 2019, as internal number two, you would have also taken the count. Correct? Yes. : The 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? : Yes. If they filled that post, like, my name is there, so, they filled that post with overtime. So, that was me. Okay. : So, I did that post. I worked that post. I generated the El. I went upstairs, conducted the count on the two housing units that I have to count, and then, I would go back downstairs, and finish the count on my El, meaning the cross, as units call me up, saying, hey, this is EN with the count of 14, and I would say, good count, bad count, and then, cross it off the on paperwork. : Okay. And then, we talked about who you worked with on August 9th. 28 EFTA00113289 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 You said that, although this says Marrugo, you think it's somebody else? : I think it's somebody else. I can't remember. : Sure. : And then -- : It's been a while. -- on August 10th, 2019, it says you were internal two, internal one was - does that say Dupre? : Yeah. He don't come in -. Oh, well. He's internal. So, that's the person that I'm hel in to conduct the count with. : Okay. So, he is doing all -- He's -. -- he's actually physicall oing to the different units? : Yes. Collecting count slips, and thins like that. Yes. : And you're assisting, you said -- Yes. 30 1 -- with him. But you're 2 also takin the counts? 3 • Yes. 4 : Okay. Thank you. And 5 who did you report to on these days? Are you 6 always re rting to the Ops Lieutenant? 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. So then, so on 9 Au ust 9th ou would have been reporting to 10 , I think, both times, because 11 Cannata, although he's listed, he was relieved 12 at 10:00 p.m. back then. They were working two 13 hours before the start of their shift. So, 14 started at 10:00 m. Soyou 15 would have been reporting to . 16 then, for both shifts? 17 : Yes. 18 : Okay. 19 : Yeah. I don't - you know - I 20 don't recall (Indiscernible *00:21:20). The 21 only thing I could try to recall was what I was 22 doing because that's all I could do. 23 : Well, per these 24 documents, at least, it shows 25 would have -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 Yeah. It shows her name. -- been the person you're reporting to. Okay. Were you previously interviewed under this investigation? : Yes. You know, the first time. Yeah. Were you interviewed more than once? No. lust once. : Okay. I'm going to just review the report that was written in regard to that interview. I just want you to - I'm not going to provide it to you because it's written on an FBI document - but however, the OIG was present. So, it's our information to have. So, I'll read it to you. And just, if you can just stop me if there is anything in there that is not accurate. Okay. : Okay? So, it says that, , Senior Officer Specialist at the Bureau of Prisons, Metropolitan Correctional Center," and it says, yada, yada, yada. "Was interviewed at the United States Attorney's Office, Southern District of New York, 1 St. 32 1 Andrews Plaza, New York, New York. Present for 2 the interview were FBI Special Agent 3 FBI Task Force Officer, TFO 4 Office of the Inspector General Special 5 Agent , and Assistant United States 6 Attorney AUSA MI advised 7 that the interview was in lieu of an appearance 8 before the federal rand jury, and is 9 voluntary. SA provided with an OIG 10 Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested 11 to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis 12 form, which IIII signed, and was witnessed by 13 SA's and Moore. SA retained the 14 original, and a copy is attached in the 1A 15 section of this report. After being advised of 16 the identity of the interviewing investigators, 17 and the nature of the interview, MI provided 18 the following information. I. worked for 19 Corrections Corporation of America from 20 approximately 2000 until 2002, when he started 21 workin for the BOP at MCC. On August 10th, 22 2019, was assigned internal two on the 23 morning watch, which is 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. 24 This post helps with the count, getting 25 paperwork and rosters ready for the count, and EFTA00113290 33 1 sometimes helps conduct the count of some of 2 the units. Units Nine South and Ten do not 3 require help for the count because there are 4 officers stationed in those units that do the 5 counts. Duringthe morning watch shift of 6 August 10th, prepared the coatJa getting 7 the paperwork together. Officer IIIIII, as the 8 control officer, took officer's phone calls, 9 receiving the verbal count for the 12:00 a.m., 10 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m. counts. When an 11 officer calls into control with the count for a 12 particular unit, control advises if the number 13 was a good count or a bad count. Control has 14 many different functions. So, when an officer 15 calls in a count, control takes the officer's 16 word that the count was conducted. didn't 17 think that control received the verbal count 18 from the Special Housing Unit for that shift. 19 However, he could not say for sure because he 20 wasn't the one taking the calls for the counts. 21 was assistin in doing the counts in the 22 other units. signed off on the counts 23 because during that shift, he was the senior 24 ranking officer. On the morning of August 25 10th, 2019 -." Is that all correct? 34 1 : Yes. 2 : Does that sound accurate. 3 : Yeah. It sounds accurate. 4 : All right. Because the 5 person said -. I thought she said that 6 she wasn't taking the calls. 7 : Okay. 8 MR. : She wasn't taking the calls? 9 : Oh, yeah. 10 : So -. 11 : We help each other. 12 : Okay. 13 : Mm-hmm. You know, we help each 14 other. So, if I'm upstairs doing a count, and 15 it takes me a little longer to come downstairs, 16 she will ick u the phone and take the counts. 17 Okay. 18 : Now, if I go upstairs, and the 19 counts, you know, it's a little faster, I will 20 come downstairs and I will take over the 21 paperwork, just, like, you pass me your 22 paperwork, I will let you do what you do -. 23 Let you finish doing your task, and I will take 24 it ri ht back over where you left off. 25 : Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 : And I will -- : Because, yeah -- -- (Indiscernible *00:25:11). I think her explanation was, she helped with, like, you know, everything else, you were involved with the counts, taking the counts on the phone, and Yeah. -- and writing the counts. Is that accurate, actually? Yes. That's accurate. : So, this actually is inaccurate the way it says that she took all the counts and the phone calls, then? : I mean, I can't really remember ...what actually happened, but Okay. like I said, we try to help each other out -- • Sure. because we all have -- • But as your -- many different jobs. . -- and this isn't, like, 36 1 an I gotcha moment, this is just - I just want 2 to make sure I understand, because your 3 responsibility on August 10th was actually to 4 take the calls, and take the verbal -- 5 : Yes. 6 : -- counts. Correct? 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. Great. "On the 9 morning of August 10th, 2019, a bod alarm went 10 off at approximately 6:33 a.m. responded 11 to the SHU where the body alarm had sounded, 12 along with another officer. The Nine South 13 officers, medical, and Lieutenant IIII were 14 already at the location. With medical 15 performing CPR. went to get a stretcher 16 and assisted in taking Jeffrey Epstein to the 17 medical unit. When emergency medical surveys 18 arrived, they started performing CPR, took 19 Epstein out to an ambulance, and transported 20 him to the hospital. followed the 21 ambulance to the hospital in another secure 22 vehicle. IIII stayed at the hospital until he 23 was relieved from duty." 24 : Yes. 25 Okay. "IIII doesn't EFTA00113291 37 1 recall any specific state that Epstein was in 2 when he responded to the scene. did 3 recall that Epstein was still loose, because 4 Epstein had to be put in restraints before he 5 could be transported. However, there was no 6 movement by Epstein on his own." So, was 7 Epstein still alive? 8 : Their policy states that nobody 9 passed away inside the institution. Like I 10 said, when I responded, when I got to the post, 11 in Nine South, he was already doing, performing 12 CPR, from medical staff and Nine South staff. 13 : Okay. 14 : They was already performing 15 CPR. So, since they was performing CPR, 16 someone needs to go get that gurney so they can 17 carry him down to medical. So -- 18 : And I understand -- 19 : -- (Indiscernible *00:27:13). 20 : -- that you're not able 21 to say if he was officially alive or dead, but 22 was he showing any signs of life? 23 : I don't know. Once I see 24 somebody performing CPR, that means something 25 bad is going on. So --1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 Did you see his eyes open? : -- honestly, I cannot really tell you what he looks like. Okay. : Because it's been so long ago. And the only thing I know, they was performing CPR. I ran to go get the gurney. Because if you're performing CPR, he's definitely going to have to o down to medical. : Okay. So, you can't recall - even though this was a big incident, and pretty traumatic - you can't recall if his eyes were open, or if he was breathing, or anythin like that? I can't recall. : Okay. "I'll acknowledged that he wrote a memo about the incident. This was due to the fact that when one responds to a body alarm, it has to be documented. did not recall any interactions with Epstein prior to Epstein's death." And that's the end of that. Okay. : Does all that seem 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 accurate? Yes. : Okay. I'm not going to attach that. All right. So, we are going to go over the count sheets that were done. Oh, shoot. All right. So, these are just the count sheets for the (Indiscernible *00:28:43). This one is -. I'm going to move this over here. So, this one wasn't you. I'm just showing you, kind of, where I have highlighted just the time, and then, I have, you know, what we're particularly interested in, are going to be RA and ZA. Okay. : ZA stands for the SHU. Correct? Yes. Nine South. : The Special Housing Unit. And RA stands for R&D. Correct? Yes. : All right. Great. So, here is the one for 8/9/2019. It looks like this was the 5:00 a.m. count. Correct? Yes. : All right. It shows in 40 1 the SHU, 77, and R&D is zero. And this one, 2 it's 8/9/2019. This one looks like it was for 3 the 4:00 p.m. count. RA says zero. All right. 4 So, R&D was zero. It says the SHU was 76. One 5 in attorney conference. And one in -. Or I'm 6 sorry. 75 that were actually physically 7 present in the SHU. Correct? 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : All right. And then, 10 we're going to go back, and now we'll start 11 looking at these count slips, just so we can 12 kind of get an idea. All right. On the second 13 to last page, there's a ZA, it shows 75. I 14 just highlighted that. That was on 8/9/19, 15 time 4:00. It says Noel and signed for 16 them. Correct? 17 : Okay. 18 : And then, attorney. It 19 actually says three. A total of three, because 20 they were from other units. All right. So, 21 and one of them being from the SHU. Correct? 22 : Yes. 23 : All right. So, we've got 24 the 75 on that, 75 there. All right. Now, we 25 get to where you come in. So, this is the EFTA00113292 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we'll go to the - it last page here. So, 10:00 p.m. Was this *00:31:11 Yes. 41 10:00 o.m. count. Correct? Yes. : So, on 8/9/2019, this was printed out at 9:33 p.m. According to this, RA - or R&D - both show zero. Yes. : ZA - which is the SHU shows 73 on both columns. Correct? Yes. : So, is this your handwritin here? Yes. : All right. And would this be "good verbal," 10:30 p.m.? Yes. : All right. So, that means you took the verbal count, as well? Yes. All right. And so, then, looks like the second to here R&D, 8/19, an =? (Phonetic Sp. : All right. And then, up 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 handwritin 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 42 here, we have an NS+1. And then, here, for ZA, we got a 73+1 8:00, 9:00, 10:00 p.m., it looks like a and a Noel. Correct? Yes. : Would you be the ones that was crossing off all of these count slips? Yes. : Do you know why these were not crossed off? I'm not too sure. : Are these nine S, plus one on the R&D, and this plus one on the ZA, were they our handwriting? Yes. : So, that is your Yes. : NS+1? • That nine S looks like my handwritin . Yes. : And do you know what that would have meant? : Okay. Sometimes, they asked us to, you know, at the Sentry, it's too late to punch in the body, oh, well, punch in the 43 1 inmate into the specific housing unit because 2 the count, you know, the count down states 3 that, after, what? 8:00, after -. If the count 4 is being conducted at 12:00, you have until 5 10:45, I think, to punch in any new inmate that 6 is going to a specific unit. So, at this time, 7 I believe - because only a lieutenant could 8 tell us, to host count. 9 : Okay. 10 : So, basically, the numbers are 11 here, the numbers are right, but on this 12 specific unit, we have one in R&D, that needs 13 to be moved to Nine South. 14 : Or that they otherwise, 15 Nine South needs to be moved to R&D. 16 : Yeah. 17 : Because RA, or R&D, shows 18 zero. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : Correct? 21 : Yeah. So, he's in -. So, 22 basically, he's in RA right now. Because 23 that's why we got that little count slip saying 24 RA plus one. Basically, he's supposed to be 25 Nine South. He's supposed to be Nine South 44 1 plus one. But ri ht now, he's in RA. 2 : Okay. So, what is - when 3 it says -. Should this say 73+1 then, or is he 4 sayiniiiiiii, 5 : No. That's supposed - yeah - 6 it's supposed to be minus one, but I guess that 7 was an error b me. 8 : All right. And you're 9 the one who wrote that? 10 : Yes. 11 : Okay. So, and are you 12 positive you're the one who wrote this plus 13 one, and this 9S+1? By looking at that. 14 : Now, this right here don't look 15 16 17 18 19 handwriting. But I know that Nine South, that 20 nine and S ri ht there is mine. 21 : So, he Nine South plus 22 one is ours? 23 : Yeah. 24 Okay. And is there a 25 reason why this wasn't crossed out? like m handwritin . 73? : The plus one next to the : Yeah. That don't look like my EFTA00113293 45 46 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I don't know. : Okay. And is there anything that you can think of, why wasn't the person that was in R&D, why weren't they changed out of the SHU and put into R&D internallI in the BOP systems? : I'm not too sure. For El. So, by the way that this is -. Do you know if you did this at 10:00 p.m., during the count, or do you remember EM ber if ou did it after the fact? : I can't remember, sir. All right. But in order to do this, you're saying that an Ops Lieutenant would have had to authorize that? Yeah. : So, you would have spoken to that oerson? Yeah. And do you remember if you suoke to that person, though -? : No. I can't remember. • All right. So, the fact that these people gave you a count that said 73, would that be an inaccurate count? If there 1 was only 12 in the unit? 2 : Yes. It would be an inaccurate 3 count. You know, if I conducted - yeah, my 4 name is there. So, I dropped the ball on that 5 one. 6 : All right. Did you drop 7 the ball or did they? Because, look, I don't 8 want to say that you dropped the ball here, 9 because it looks like, to me, there were 73 10 here, there was 73 here. And on 8/10, at 11 midnight, although this is 72 here, and this 12 last page, it shows ZA, they're still saying 13 73. And then, to get even a little more 14 confusing, when I look at -. When you look at 15 these daily activity lieutenant logs. So, if 16 you go to the Saturday, August 10th log, it 17 starts the shift at 73. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : And then, at 12:35, 20 number one, negative one SHU correction, 21 Fernandez, dry cell. And if you go back to 22 this, daily log from August 9th, at 3:15 p.m., 23 it says, Fernandez was placed on dry cell from 24 ZA. So, it looks like that was finally 25 corrected at 12:35 a.m. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 Okay. : So, does that help jog your memor a It all about what happened here? No. : Do you think that, being that this count, this 73 matches up with this count slip, at 10:00 p.m., and then, the midnight count slip still says 73, but at 12:35, this was recognized. Would you have placed this plus one at the 10:00 p.m. count slips after IIIIIIII: Hmm. I believe so. I can't really recall, but it looks like I dropped the ball somewhere. But how would you have dropped the ball if your number showed 73, and the people in the SHU were the ones reporting 73? : Because as you see right here, it says 73. So, something went wrong with the numbers. Somethin went wrong with the -- Yeah. -- numbers, but I know for sure that vie had 73 or 72 at that time, on those units. 48 1 Yeah. No, I mean, so, 2 our investigation, we believe, is showing us 3 that there were 72 people for sure in the unit. 4 However, the people in the unit were reporting 5 73, because that's what the documentation 6 showed, 73. So, they weren't actually 7 conducting their counts. They were reporting 8 what the thought the numbers should be. 9 : Yeah. 10 : So, that's what we're 11 asking you, if they're reporting 73, and your 12 document shows 73, I don't see how you're 13 droppiiiiiiiiball. Do you? 14 : I mean, somehow, somehow, you 15 know, like, you showed me my handwriting right 16 here, on the hi hlight -- 17 : Well, that's where a 18 portion of me wanting - believes that you 19 probably did this. So, every count slip here 20 is crossed off. Aside from these two. Why 21 would that be? 22 : I don't know. 23 : Do you know if these 24 countiiiiiiiiould have been re-created? 25 : I don't know, sir, because that EFTA00113294 49 1 looks like handwriting. That looks 2 like Noel's handwriting. So, you know, 3 everybody has a, you know, like, a certain type 4 of handwritin . 5 : Okay. Yeah, so, can you 6 think of a reason why you would cross all these 7 off, thou not these two? 8 : I'm not too sure. I can't 9 remember. 10 : Have you ever seen that 11 before? 12 : Sometimes, it happens. 13 : And -. 14 : Like, especially if count slips 15 come down late. Sometimes it could happen. 16 Maybe, maybe I was on rushing to do another 17 task, and I just, you know, looked at it, 18 looked at the numbers, quick count, and then, I 19 stapled everything together. That could happen 20 too. So -- 21 : Okay. 22 rbecause sometimes, we have 23 another task to o do. 24 : Now, at the 12:00 a.m. 25 count, on August 10th, does that mean that 1 2 with ou? 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 50 was in there taking the count Yes. Okay. So, she was in there, and you said you can only put a plus one on a count slip if it's approved by the Ops Lieutenant. Yes. : Does that tell you that the probably, then, these plus ones probably occurred after the 12:00 a.m. count? No. I don't know. : Because you said you couldn't do the -. That you couldn't ut these plus ones at 10:00 p.m. unless took the count -- Yeah. -- at 12:00. : So, this had to be done before 10:00 m. Or during -- : Well, the counts had to do -- ...or during 10:00 p.m. -- right. The counts had to be done during 10:00 p.m., but these marks 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 on here, the Nine S plus one and R&D, and the 73 plus, the plus one portion of the ZA, SHU, they didn't necessarily had to be at 10:00 p.m. Correct? : Yes. These have to be done at 10:00 : But the actual Nine South plus one, and this -- : Yeah. -- plus one -- : Yeah. That's after. -- can't be done after the fact? : Maybe a little bit after. Maybe a little bit after because the count probably didn't clear until -. The count didn't clear until 10:36. And so, this probably was during that timeline, from either 9:58, from 9:55 to about 10:15, this had to be brought about or enerated. : All right. Well, so, this person who is in R&D, it's this person, like I just mentioned, Fernandez. This is an inmate quarter history. This person wasn't removed from the SHU until 8/10/2019 at 0035. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 Mm-hmm. there. Ops Lieutenant : When - again - she was . So, are you sure that this Nine South plus one, and this plus one would have taken place at that 10:00 .m. count? Yeah. : Because why - if that were the case - why wouldn't this have happened well before the 12:00 p.m. count? Because again, this R&D slip, there's not even somebody there for R&D. If you knew, at this time, at the 10:00 p.m. count, why wouldn't this person have been keyed out, prior to the 12:00 a.m. count? Or why would have she caught it at 12:35 a.m., and fixed it then? And why would have the 12:00 p.m., they still have been reflecting 73 on their count slip? You follow what I'm saying? : Yeah. Does that make you think about them a little bit differently? : 73 is what the count is supposed to be? No. 72 is what the count EFTA00113295 53 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 It is su osed to be. : Yeah. : So, this count -- : Okay. -- on the El is correct. : Yeah. : The count slip is incorrect. : Yes. The count slip is incorrect. So, at 10:00 p.m., these guys are reflecting 73. Your El shows there's supposed to be 73. So, you have a good count. : Yeah. And so -- : This one, they reflect -- --I dropped the ball -- --73. I must have dropped the ball right there. : So, what I'm asking, though, with this, you're telling me that his handwriting had to have happened at the 10:00 p.m. count. Yes. : Correct? And you still 1 stickliiiiiii? 2 : I believe so. Yeah. I believe 3 so, because wh is it there? You know? And -- 4 : My -- 5 -- (Indiscernible *00:42:26). 6 • -- own idea is it's there 7 is because you now have the person, the Ops 8 Lieutenant, at 12:00 a.m. saying, hey, go back 9 to this count slip, put these plus ones, so it 10 reflects that's where these people actually 11 were. Did that make sense? 12 MR. : Do you understand what he 13 Yeah. 14 MR. -- showed you? 15 Yeah. I -- 16 MR. : About the fact that -- 17 • -- I know what he's saying. 18 MR. : -- the actual (Indiscernible 19 *00:42:44 of that inmate missing. 20 : Yeah. 21 MR. : Didn't happen until passed 22 midnight, because if not, the corrections would 23 have had to happen at 10:00 p.m. 24 : Yes. 25 : Yeah. So -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 Now, now -. -- if this was caught at 10:00 p.m., the 12:00 a.m. wouldn't be messed up. That person would have been keyed out. Right? Yeah. : But he wasn't keyed out until 12:35 a.m. Okay. : But their slip is still bad -- : Yeah. -- at 12:00 a.m. : Their slip is bad. : So, the count slip is bad. That count number is good. That is the real count number. The question is, when did this happen? To me, it looks like the people in the SHU were just reporting the number they thought they were supposed to be giving to you. 73. They didn't realize that this guy wasn't in there. He was actually in R&D. He was in R&D since at least 3:00 p.m. So, the 4:00 p.m. count is bad. The 10:00 p.m. count is bad. And finally, at midnight, it's caught. So, I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 don't - the way I look at it - it's not a drop the ball on you. Because you didn't know that that guy wasn't in there. So, we're trying to help you put the pieces together of, if this is your actual handwriting, when would have that happened? To me, it seems like you're relying on whatever is in the system. Somebody didn't key this guy out. The Ops Lieutenant comes in. Figures it out. And says, that guy is in R&D. And I'm assuming the reason to why she figured it out is because she's getting count slips. I don't know when this count slip would have come in, but there's a count slip for R&D at 10:00 p.m., and there's another count slip for R&D at midnight. But like we said, this is the one thing that's bad, this is bad, if that actually came in at 10:00 p.m. because it shows zero in R&D. Okay. : But the thing that we're trying to piece together, and what we're trying to talk to, is two) because of when were these things made? Sorry, first, when were these, you know, notations made on these two count slips; and second, why are they the only two that are EFTA00113296 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 not crossed off? Out of all the count slips. : Hmm. I don't have no answer for -- You don't remember that - It-- for that question. -- at all? No. : Do you remember, at all, any conversations that were had with the SHU that night, with regard to these counts? Or this 'erson being placed in R&D. : No. • Do you -. I can't recall. • Do you remember - so we're told that the Ops Lieutenant, , claims she may have had a conversation with the SHU, and where this person is - do you remember that at all? No. : No? : Because if she talked to SHU, I wouldn't have been on the phone for that. But wouldn't you have 58 1 been next to her, though, if she was in 2 control correct? 3 IIIIIIII: Yes. But, you know, like, if 4 she was talking, I probably was focused on a 5 different task, because I have paperwork that I 6 have to do too. 7 : Okay. 8 : But around this time, I start 9 cleanin out the folders. 10 : Okay. So, around the 11 10:30 .m. time? 12 : Yeah. 13 : All right. So, there's 14 nothing that you can kind of help shed us light 15 on, with these count slips? 16 : No. I don't have nothing. 17 : And is it fair to say, 18 though, you do not know when you put these Nine 19 S plus one on the R&D, and then, the plus one 20 on the ZA? 21 : Yeah. 22 : So, you don't -. 23 : Now, this is not my handwriting 24 right here. 25 So, the plus one next to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 the ZA is not you? : I don't think that's me. But I know for sure that's me. Right there. MR. : What do you know is for sure? The nine S or the plus one? : Yeah. The nine S, plus one. Because the plus one here looks kind of similar to this plus one there, doesn't it? : It looks similar, but I don't believe that's my handwriting. But it could be. It could be. : Or maybe this plus one isn't ours just the nine S is yours. : You know, it could be my handwritin . And I can't -- It could be. I can't remember. You know, it's been -- MAll right. a while. : It's been a while. But has -- Yeah. -- anything like this 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 ever ha ened before? That you can think of. : Probably. I mean, you know -- : Have you seen -- --it's not a -- -- things like -? -- it's not a, you know, it's not a -. It's not a, you know, it's not a science. You know? Mistakes do happen. Because we do drop the ball. That's why we have to, you know, view each other, and be, you know, and work behind each other, and look over each other's shoulder. It can be possible. : So, any one that we've showed this to has just been, like, whoa, I've never seen anything like that before. But this has actually happened in the past, where you've seen this happen, where you put, like, a nine S plus one? : Sometimes. Like I said, you know, like, you know, sometimes, R&D leaves early. Like, right now, if this is 10:00 p.m., R&D should have one home already. : Yeah. So, they have a guy in dry cell with people in custody on him, watching him. EFTA00113297 61 1 : Yes. 2 : Correct? And that's where 3 that we et the name 4 : Yeah. 5