Document text
STATE
Forms to be Filled out for Each Interview
FORM A
Circumstances of Interview
New York
NAME OF WORKER Irving Nicholson
ADDRESS 4507 15th Pve. Brooklyn, F. Y.
MOT November 28, 1938
SUBJECT TALFS O 7FF SHOE INDUSTRY —PHILIP DASH
1. Date and time o7 interview
FOLKLORE
NEW YORK
November 22, 1938
2. Place of interview
Shop of Palter DeLiso, 740 Broedvay, New York City
3. Name and address of informant
Philip Dash, 1653 East Fourth St. Bklyn, N. Y.
4. Name and address of person, if any, who put you in
touch with informant.
Mr. Benjamin Nicholson 1649 E. 4th 4. 5114n, N. Y.
5. Name and address of person, if any, accopanying you
None
6. Description of room, house, surroundings, etc.
The factory: In the fitting room there are lights over
sewing machines which extend in a long row. They sit on benches.
There is also a cutting and lasting room. The cutting room
extends around the windows. There is a narrow table around
which 21 cutters work. That is, 21 trimming cutters. The
lasting room is by benches. Ten sit on one bench, ten others
on another bench. The interview took place in the fitting room.
(Use as many additional sheets as necessary, for any of the forms, each
bearing the proper heading and the number to which the material refers.)
FOIV
Personal history of Informant
STATE New York
NAME OF WaKER Irving Nicholson
ADDIT.S8 4507 -15th Ave. Bklyn, N. Y.
DATE November 28, 1938
SUi3JECT TAILLS 0 raE SHOE INDUSTRY —PHILIP DASH
1. Ancestry
Morris Dash
Anna Dash
2. Place and date of birth
Chernikov„ Russia 1886
3. Family
Has Wife, 4 children living. 2 girls and 2 boys.
One girl is married.
4. Places lived in, with dates
5•
Boro Park Brooklyn up to 1926
Present address from 1926
Edhcatior, with dates
FOLELORE
NE' YORK
Night HIS. School from 1902 to 1903
6. Occupations and accomplishments, with dates
Shoe worker-silled -1899
Contractor 1916-1928
Worker to present
7. Special skills and interests
Knows anythin connected with the making of a shoe
including the minute8t operations.
8. Community and religious activities
Is merely family man, active in the union. Goes to
synacmgue on Jewish holidays.
9. Description of informant
Is about five nine. Has crop of iron grey hair
over reddish, healthy race. althy Eyes grey and aperkling. books
and rull or lire.
10. Other Points gained in interview h -e
STATE
NAVE OF
ADDRESS
DATE
SUBJECT
FORM C
Text of Interview (Unedited)
New York
WORM 11 Irving Nicholson
4507.15th Ave. Brooklyn, N. Y.
November 28, 1938
TALES OF THE SHOE INDUSTRY
FOLKIJODF
NEW YORK
In 1902, before the Japanese Oar, you know4 started in 1903.
4:'
We worked in a shop, so it was a lot of olderar,people but they were
considered the best mechanics in the shoe trade. For the old shoe
maers we tipped the hat. The young were good too. So when it comes,
for instance, to politics, the old ones say to the young ones:.
"Jim, you don't pray in the morning, you don't pray in the
evening. You are without God."
So the young generation used to have debates with the olderary
people and when it used to happen you would spoil a shoe, they used
to come over to we young ones and say:
"You see, God punished you, because you don't believe. That 'a
why he punished you.
The next shoe we made good end we used to laugh at them and
ask.
"So why didn't he make us spoil this one too?"
They answered, "Ha, God got a good heart. He's got pity
on people."
.2.
Once the boss comes in and he listened to all the discussions
what's gain' on. So he used to say like that."This here fellow" (a
certain fellow named Semen Sam in this country "used to read a
lot. He should be either a lawyer or a doctor. He's too clever to
work by shoes.
"Nu, well, this was when I was ninetXen years old. This
fellow, Semen, had a long beard with a mustache and he was a short
fellow and looked like a wise one. He combed his hair like the Czar
to show what a wise one he was. When he talked his hair used to jump
up and down. He used to say like that. (At this point Mr. Dash
stroked his chin and leaned over as if telling a secret).
"I made shoes to the Russian Czar." So the workers used
to tip their hats to him. Yeh, I mean it, he made shoes for the
Russian Czar.
"One day we decide that we should demand better meals because,
you know, we used to board by the boss in the old country. We decide
e-
we should pick this here wise one, Semen, that he should go and talk
to the boss, like a committee. He went and told him.
"The wages are O. K. The only thing is the dinners are
no good." "This here Semen was a very jolly fellow, you know. So as
soon as he tol' the boss, the boss was a liberal fellow, not like some
over in this country, the boss called the wife and give her a laying
out. She cried and said she'll make the dinners better a little.
When Seaman returned back, when he told about the better meals, he
was like a great hero, bigger than the Czar. He said like a big
general.
"From now on we'll have good dinnes. No more junk. Borscht
with plenty of meat, nd that was the victory. 70 won good dinners.
Without Seman we were all like sheeps.
4‘.en I worked for anotioter boss, a Christian young man,
a very liberal man, he didn't believe in nothing. So people used to
talk to us. At that time began meet:ngs, revolutions. The boss
used to talk and believe with us. But the olderary workers, they
didn't like the idea. That's all they know is, church, and church.
Now that's all right but why not some politics also. Without polities
they were slaves in their heLrts. Then the war came. Russia -Japanese.
Everyday in the shop was discussions. One fellow, an old man, a
little different than the rest of the olderary ones. He used to
be "stratetio" (mamma strateglyst6m)sHe takes our generals arld turns
them around and gets the Japanese. Japan wants to get to Port Arthur
and Russia surrounds them. He always won the war with the chalk. When
we heard that Japan took Port Arthur, he denied it all the time. He
couldn't believe it, even with papers showing all the time black and
white. Until the Jap killed three of his sons in Port Arthur. Then
he believe it44(
When it came dinner time in that place oh one goes in. On
the wall was a picture of Jesus, and the mother. Old bent down. The
young didn't. There was always fighting until they were so mad and
they called in the boss. The olderary ones complained.
"The workers don't put the cross on them."
The boss decided that everyone could do the way he pleased.
Then there was no more fighting and we could eat our meals in peace.
Some boss we had. He made it like over here. Everyone could do as
he wants. That's the best way.
-4
Then came to America. Such a wonderful land I heard.
It was, too, but there was always so much trouble and fighting.
In 1907 we had a strike from the I. W. W. That was the
union then, that's right, and they called out a general strike in
Brooklyn, and the boss, he was the President of the Board of Trade.
Only his shop was in New York. That place, you hear, was the most
important one to get out. But it was the last. The workers was so
dumb that once I saw they picked up the boas. Naturally I was a
greenhorn and I thought they were going to throw him into the river.
The shop was on tae7enth Avenue. But they acted like the boas was
a king. I never saw anything like it. They begL:ed him to settle
the strike. But he wouldn't listen. So we decided we should send
one fellow. Such a crazy idea. The boss liked this fellow so much
and we thought it would be easier that way. We give this fellow
the honor, and he says to us.
"Oh, if I go into the boss, he'll do somethinl"
But when he comes back* he asks for thirteen men, me and
twelve others, he says, and he promised to take in the rest of the
fellers very soon. But that didn't happen. It was freezin' those
days. We shivered. It was near the water. One advised that he
put paper in the back of the coat. "That will keep you warm." You
take your overcoat and you turn it on the left side. That also keeps
you warm. This is right. When you do these things, it keeps you warm.
Once we picked a fellow to go into a shop like a scab to
find the situation. So he remained there. He didn't want to go down,
That's the shoe industry for you. Then they picked me. I should go
after a scab. That scab was from S. Louis* a Greek. So I went
after him in the same trolley and I start to ask him why he goes to
work. Its a strike so he answered me.
2
.5.
"In St. Louis they promised me that he's gonna have here a
steady job. That's whey I came here."
You hetr that. Such agencies there are by shoes.
I and Barney, we went to a house on a Friday to ask, because
he was an inportant worker, a sample maker, not to work. It was on
a Friday night. The candles was lighting. He was sitting and eating
supper. So calm. So nice. So we start to a,1 sk him he shouldn't
come to work. Then he says.
"This is the first good supper in six weeks. If I wouldn't
have this job I wouldn't eat."
Then Barney and I almost fell down. He promised us he wouldn't
eat no more. He'd go down with us. I could see on him that he couldn't
finish his supper. Such an industry.
One day, around Thanksgiving it was very cold and we huddled
in a tiny store, when we look out we see one of us running lika a
eri through the snow. We run out after him. What's the matter.
He tells us his wife just give birth to a little boy and he's so
happy he wants to take us to celebrate, but he's broke, and he's
looking for something to treat us. All we could collect we give it
to him which isn't much. So we go to this house. Then he gives us
five biscuits, all there is in the house. Then we send out for bread
herring and beer. Then he goes to the cellar and burns the herring
on the hot coals.
The next morning he tells us that the baby is dead.
"Thank God." he says "we couldn't afford it."
Then the strike is over. There Is a feller, Abele, working
near me. He had seven children and each year* he used to bring the
oldest children in the shop, like the 14 year one or the 15 one. He
himself, was a little one, a little funny guy* a little one. He
used to come in late, about 10 o'clock in the shop. We used ask him.
"Abele, what's the matter? Why so late?"
"Nu* I'm running a big business. I got to see the children
should work."
"But they only make five dollars a week."
"Oh, in another five years they will make 10 dollars a week.
Don't worry. Then he would strut around like a big one (Here
Mr. Dash strutted around the table of the kitchen.)
But once he said.
"I walked from uptown to Brooklyn to the shop."
And we'd ask hilt how come with three children working and
then he said that an accident happened, that one boy spoiled a pair
of shoes. So he got to work three weeks for that pair and the other
bought a suit. That's why he walked.
The truth is that all four of them, the father and .re three
sons walked to work towards the end of the season, even though one
had on a new suit. That's the shoe industry for you.
Lately, only about amonth ago, we have slack for so many
weeks, a till, tall fell -)w, his wife give birth to a boy, you hear.
He is a folder by hand and poor as the devil. We hang around the shop
during slack. Maybe there will be work.
This tall one, Morris, his name is, says:
"1 have to go away at ten. Today is the brie of my little
boy."
-7
We know he's very broke, so we decide. Each one will give
a dime. We'll buy schnapps, and wino and go to the bris. We have no
work anyway.
When we come to the house we see he's poor as the devil.
So we make a party. One fellow who came was very, very nice.looking.
The missus who was in bed thought he was the boss. She says t6 him.
"Leo, what will be. Such troubles. No work."
Then we finished the schnapps* and the people next door
came in and said:
"Peorle still cot good times. They have parties. ,Such
people."
All for the bottle of schnapps and the herring. Then we
left and we promished Morris that when we get busy, when we work, we'll
make a good b14_3 present for the baby. Ye left with that promise.
-8.
I've been working in a shoe factory about 1913 or 1914, in
the Gold Shoe Company: It was custom-made, very high-grade. Was
working there about 30 to 40 people. That's a true thing. So a
shoe maker brought his brother from Italy to work in the shop as a
laster. The very first day, you hear, the brother proposed to us
that the new person could sing, that he's a great singer. So the
first day the brother asked him to sing but he couldn't. He didn't
feel a home. On the other day he start to sing. When he sang, we
all listen. We think he's a real opera singer. And it happened,
you know, just after Caruso died, we all thought this was the next
Caruso. So every day he used to sing. We put away our tools and
listened to hin. And from the shoe factory developed a regular
opera. Until one day the boss comes around, and yells.
"What's going on here? Is this the Metropolitan or a
shoe factory?"
We thought after all that the boss is right. So we held
a meeting and we decide that this here shoemaker, the laster from
Italy, shouldn't work no more to annoy the toss, that he should go
to a music school. We hold a meeting end we decide, each one of
us should .1.ve one dollar a week to keep up the fellow. Then we
took him to a tester of music. You know, to a tester on Flatbush
Avenue. And it was a joke. The music tester said:
"Let him better go to shoe making, not to sing."
Finally we got used to him. We didn't care anymore when
the tester told us he's not so hot. We used to go on workng. While
he used to holler his lun:s out, we kept on working. Still, we
used to call him Caruso. He always remained by us Caruso, the laster.
/Tillnineteen eighteen they made shoes entirely different
than they make them now. It happened that in Kurt* and Lapidus in
Brooklyn, a sLoe worker came from Germany, and he start to chow the
boss that he could make a shoe pasted, without nailing, without
sewing, without anything. And he start to work on a pair of shoes
and we ell, about two hundred people were lookstng on that slsoe and
that worker and we tell him its s laugh. They're never be able to
make that pasted shoe in their life. He made one pair and he didn't
succeed because he didn't have the rillt paste. And we all cell
hii fo razy.
Then it peed sway a year or two and rumors was going
around in the shoe trade that in St. Louis and in Brockton and Lynn
they making already pasted shoes. The one that start the pair of
shoes by Kurtz and Lapidus where I was contractor, he went to
S. Louis on his own responsibility and he came buok with big hopes
that now he got everything what's necessary to make pasted shoes.
But New York manufacturers speeded (Jead and they succeed to make
pasted shoes without him. Lots of them lost their shirt on the
beginning but now 914 shoes are pasted, ladies and mens. And hundreds
and hundreds are out from the trade. Mout were good meoLunics, and
they got to learn not to sew by hand and only on the maohl_ne, So now
od mechanic and a boy could do the same thing:
alP
ts-
I worked for a renew, Goldstein. 'hat was 1908. He used
to make ballet shoes, the 11141 grads shoes for the millionaires.
Each worker had to be dressed in white like u doctor because the
soes was satin, all white satin.
Before Christmas he was very busy and he advertised for Map.
So a fellow come along, an Italian feller, and he mentioned the name
01101040,
for whom he was working. The boss took him up to work and he Imo
a uniform in white and for no money does be want to wear that
uniform* His excuse was this. For the last thpity years he's
working on shoes* and he never work in white. But he needed that
job and the boss insist that he wear the white uniform. So he
trained his wife that she should bring him lunch everyday. And then
it came out why he really didn't want to wear the uniform. He said:
"My wife will bring me dinner every day and then she will
get scared when she sees me In white.
A younger man then played a trick on him. He knew that
his wife was coming so he called the worker who k\cked out to meet
his wife with vZ lunch before he could chanGe out of the uniform.
When she saw him* she said:
"What's the matter* Jimmy? You sick? They gonna take you
to the hospital?"
The man got bashful and in the hell where you go into work*
he took off his white uniform and he finished his dinner and he wants
to leave the job.' So the boss liked his work very mOoh. And he
begged him he should 00MR to work and sit without a uniform as long
as he should sit and work. When he finally sit down he sit like a
hero because he sit like a real shoe maker and they sit like dopes
in white.
11
was working for Cossack and MoLaghlin* of Long Island City.
That was in 1910. So the people had there tee brothers Laval.
They are now big manufacturers. They was very smart boys* very clever
fellers* and they start* you know* to organise the people in the shop.
They were so clever that every one had confidence in them like for
the Czar. And he succeed in organising the whole factory. That was
.11.
the first factory in New York that was organised.
We had a nice union shop and the rest of the factories was
really jealous of our factory. All of a sudden one morning the boss
tells us that these two brothers, one was going to be for a foreman
and one for a superintendent, that he thinks so much of them. But
the workers, right away they didn't like the idea that a wonderful
union man should become a boss over the workers. How could he do a
thing like that? The workers were against the two brothers. The
factory started to go the opposite way because they weren't experienced
foremen. They resigned from the union and
bl shots, that they have nothing to do no
it went through a month and the boss fired
he made
for the
they declared themselves
more with the union. So
them. He did it purposely
them first great shots only to get rid of them.
Then the trouble begin in the factory. They got good limys
boss from Boston and they tried to fire and break the union.
By the end was this way the two brothers were sore on the workers
because they didn't help them. There was a strike.' The brothers
got scabs a lot and they went to work again. Even though the boss
fired them from the big jobs. Then the brothers' children (one had
three and the other three) got sick. And one of the kids died from
scarlet fever. They thought that God punished them'beoause they don&
a lot of harm to the workers so one morning they came in the union
and they pledged that they gonna take revenge from the bosses and
make them again a union shop. But they didn't succeed because the
workers didn't trust them no more.
_)
was workini in Grinnin/ and White on Pearl Street, Brooklyn
about 1904. So, being not too lon,-; in this here country, it just
happened that this boss who was a contractor fooled me in this way.
He used to give me work so the prices were supposed to be by the
dozen, six cents by the dozen. He used to tell me: "Here is ten
dozen for you." The first couple of weeks I believed him. At the
end of each day he would say: I did twenty dozen which amount to $1.20.
I was a very fast worker. But I trusted him. I didn't count it.
What is it? I'm getting faster and faster everyday by the money remain'
the same. I can't make anymore than twenty dozen.
So I say to myself. I'm gonna count the work. So I count
it over and that %via one and one.half times more than he say I make.
So the first day after that I didn't want to say anything to him.
But on the third day I began to give it to hit.
"What the hock is it? You fooled me already two weeks and
I proved it".
And so I had with him an argument that he skins me. Then I
start to tell the workers to take my part, to tell him I'm right.
They say to me that's impossible, that he's E fine fellow, that he's
goodjiearted mad gives plenty to charity, lie wouldn't do a thing like
When I count the work in front of the people they believe me. We
decide that, before he gives the work out, he should have on every
lot a coupon, or ticket, one dozen with a ticket. He had to do it.
He wants to fire me, but the rest of the workers were with me. He
had to doi it. And that was something new in the industry. He kept
mak. What else could he do? Could you tell me?
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