Document text
f-
Forms to be Filled out for Eacn Interview
FORM A.
Circumstances of Interview
STATE New York
NAME OF vORKER Ellis Williams
AnmEss 852 St. Nicholas Avenue, N.Y.C.
DATE November 29, 1938
SUEJECT THE STORY OF RUDOLPH DUNBAR (Social -Ethnic Studies)
1. Date and time c" interview Noveaber 28, 1938
FOLKLORE
NEW YORK
2. Place of interview Wadieigh Court 1884 Seventh Avenue Apt. 44
3. Name and address of informant Rudolph Dunbar
1884 Seventh Avenue
New York City
4. Name and address of person, if any, wno put you in
touch with informant.
Wry Kirk
208 West 151st Street
New York City
5. Name and address of person, if any, cccowptinying you
6. Description of room, house, surroundings, etc. One of the most desirable
dwelling houses for workers in Harlem whose incomes are in the higher
brackets. Quite an exclusive builaing with much pomp and service.
Uniformed elevator operators, doormen and porters all contribute to
keep building exterior immaculately clean. Apartment was extravagantly
furnished in studio fashion that would surprise many a downtown visitor.
Any number .of paintings and etchings adorned the walls, while a baby
grand reposed a corner of the living room in which much bric-a-brac
were displayed.
(Use as many additional sheets as necessary, for any of the forms, each
bearing the proper heading and the number to which the material refers.)
Pc:..s?ual InfcnIvaot
STATE New York
NAME vOINFP. Ellis Williams
ADrESS
DALE
StitiJECT
852 St. Nicholas Avenue
November 29, 1938
THE STORY OF RUDOLPH DUNBAR
I. Ancestry
2. Place and dcte of hirt;i British Guiana, South America, 1907.
3. i'am113 Brother, Barrington Dunbar reading for his Doctorate at
Columbia University.
4. Place:1Ii ve.
FOLKLORE
NE:' YORK
&'cLL British Guiana, New York, Paris, Germany, Austria,
Rome, Vienna, Scandinavia, Switzerland and London all in order named.
5. Eeucation, WIL,iates
Institute of Musical Arts, Paris University
and Cambridge
6. 0cupations on,1 accociplintc, witbUa
Composer, conductor, author,
lecturer, journalist and concert clarinettist.
7. Special skills and interests Painting
8. Col:a:unity and religious a-tiliitles Harlem Art Center, Amsterdam News,
The Crisis and Methodist Episcopal Church.
O. Description of informant Picture tells the story.
10. Other Points gained in intervio'4
FORM r
Text of Interview (Unedited)
STATE New York
NE OF wonhEn. Ellis Williams
ADDRESS 852 St. Nicholas Avenue, N.Y.C.
DATE November 29, 1938
SUBJECT lbh STORY OF RUDOLPH DUNBAR
FOLKLORE
NEW YORK
Poverty and hardship are the best incentive for a young
man's success. Consequently, the man who knows what he wants
and concentrates all his energies in aiming at it will undoubtedly
reach his goal. Such has been my life, where I have towered like
an impregnable rock in hardship, reeling and swaying in the tur-
bulent storms of defeat and despair with concentration of purpose
to achieve my end. Adversity and disappointment, by trying me
high, have added a new range and depth to the eqquisiteness of
my art.
Mr childhood days were spent in a humble modest home which
formed the embodiment of religion and propriety. My parents were
amazingly decent and decorous. My father wanted me to be a barr-
ister, but I loved, and wanted to be a great musician. In view
of this fact, I found it rather difficult to comply with myfatherfs
request. When I had finished my primary education, and time arrived
for a settlement of my future career, my uncle, who was a "mason boss"
stepped in and suggested that I should be apprenticed to him in order
that I should learn the masonry trade. This, however, enraged me,
and I exclaimed "Whati... Do you think I want to be a mason? Stoop-
ing down to bricks and cement all my life?" This was not agreed
upon and my mother, who also loved music, decided that I should have
my own choice.
-2
The Band at the Military Academy stimulated and aroused my
artistic aspirations to a great extent, so much that I frequently
prevailed upon my mother to take the necessary steps for me to
enter the Military Academy. Whenever the band was en route march
and passed by our house a child became delirious with enthusiasm.
My early music training began on the piano with the organist
of the church which I attended. I was singing in the choir, which
also acted as an early artistic stimulus. In the course of one
of my piano lessons, quite unexpectedly, a lady turned to my teacher
and d "Pay heed to this youngster look at his head; he will
make a great musician some day." With my boyish stupidity, I
thought that woman truly mad for making such a statement, notwith-
standing that years after, the woman's vision had come true. As a
boy I possessed an instinctive, uncanny personality for which I
could not account. In the first place I was intensely shy, which
automatically caused me to Lenerate a frigid aloofness from every-
one. As a result of this I was misunderstood by everyone, even by
my own mother. My mother WRS so perturbed about this unaccountable
sophistry at such an early age as I was then, that she thereupon
stopped my music studies. She figured that, if I could be such a
snob in the state of adolescence, I should not remember the hands
that shaped my destiny. This premature and rude interruption of
my music studies by my mother caused me sufferin6s and grief, and
I wept bitterly.
Music was strong within me and I pleaded with my mother to
make the necessary applications for me to enter the Military Academy
in order that I might continue my musical career. My mother after
noticing the kind of stimulus music had for me, decided that she
would grant my request. The necessary formalities were seen to and
before long I was admitted to the Academy on probation.
-3
It is a matter of special interest and much importance that
I exonerate myself before proceeding to tell you of the Negro in
London least I be misjudged. I can truthfully state that I am
not aiming at the subject of arrogant or vulgar jibes at any part-
icular race or individual which might tend to create disquieting
reactions. I am merely pointing out SOMB existing facts of the
unsurmountable barrier that the Negro has to face in England.
Moreover I -:.ant it be made clear that my philosophy is that the
destiny of mankind should be based on happiness, therefore I would
not contrive to ..Jreate unpleasantness among anyone.
The revolting ignorance which exists among the masses in
England concerning the character of the Negro is something most
unbelievable. I am bewildered with pious horror to think that
in England, where civilization and culture are supposed to be in-
tegral ingredients of an Englishman's make-up, one should find
opposing and antagonistic indifferences lurking around. It would
seem fantastic to inform you, ole chap, that in London, the great-
est capital of the world, you can find every conceivable race;
there are thousands and thousands of English people who are under
the illusion that every black person comes from Africa. What a
sad misconception. Haven't these people read books to discover
that a great multitude of Negroes come from the West Indies, the
United States of America, and Brazil, who have never seen Africa
but on the map. What is the use of the public libraries? They
are certain types of Englishmen who are obsessed with a curious
and futile impulse to approach a black man, whether on the street,
in the subway or in a public place, in order to ascettain where
comes from. Some of them generally put the question to you and
answer it thenselves; for example, they would say, "Where do you
come from? Africa?" Others would say, "What part of Africa do
-4
you come from?" Others would say, "What part of Africa do you come
from?"
happens
obscure
If the answer is, "I am not from Africa," and the questioner
to be of the impudent ignorant.type who has inhabited the
regions of Africa, where the black man goes through bitter
abject misery, he would reach the point of tumult in a constrained
sense of antagonism to know that a black man is free like himself
to promenade the streets of London. He would then forcibly insist
on his black brother to admit that he cones from Africa. On the
contrary, I have encountered a good many English people who possess
sympathy as wide as the world and their employment active benevolence
they have approached me on the same subject of "Where do you come
from but not with the intention of humiliating me or causing
unpleasantness of any kind, but simply to reet me with that warm
and glowing welcome, knowing that I belong one of the outstretched
wings of the Empire.
On the street during rush hour, it is obvious that people
would walk into (fi.ch other accidentaliy. Invariably this happens
to me, and if it is my iault, I would quickly apologise and politely
express my regret. Sometimes in response to my apologies, my anta-
gonistic opponent would turn to me and say, "You
don't you go back to Africa?" How uncomfortable
sion of impudent ignorance, pitiful and pathetic
It frets my soul to see such coarseness of fibre
damn nigger, why
is such apl.re en
in every respect.
in an Englishman.
I have often heard this phrase recurring like a decimal number:
"Nhy don't you go back to Africa?"; a statement of this nature is
absurdly distorted because it is not in accordance with the facts
which exist in Africa concerning the black man and his country.
What does Africa mean to me? Nothing whatsoever. The white man
with hals crescendo of power, dominates almost every part of Africa
-5
with the whip, and from the sweat and blood of the black man the
ordinary third-rate white man lives in an exalted position in
Africa wnich is supposed to belong to me, much better than would
be possible in his own country. This existing state of affairs
contains a most perplexing problem which makes life a meaning-
less mockery. Nevertheless, destiny in her intricate weavings
would bring someone to answer for all this.
Life has its strange injustices and so is prejudice. The
various forms of prejudice which are being practised in England
from the highest blue blood aristocrat to the lowest shop girl,
is of enthralling interest and would therefore furnish the stu-
dent of psychology with a reservoir of material. A black man is
looked upon( )8n alien in England despite the fact that he hails
from one of the British colonies. This is only too well manifested
when he goes to find employment. Thus it will be seen that the
black man has to fight alien as well as color prejudice in England.
The most arduous task in England is for a black man of unskilled
labour to secure a job, yet in Africa and tne West Indies Englishmen
occupy the most exalted positions. During the World War a large
number of colored men were engaged to work in the sugar refineries,
and after the war was over work became scarce, which led to a vio-
lent protest against these Negroes occupying jobs while Englishmen
Ji
were out or work. What happened f4aly was that the colored men
A
were given the sack in order to make foam for the Englishmen. In
Africa and the West Indies Englishmen are not ousted from their
positions to make room for the unemployed natives, despite the
fact that in many cases Englishmen are quite incompetent to fill
their respective positions. An Englishman can go practically
anywhere here. He seldom has to win his way. The way is open
-6
for him providing he does not make obvious mistakes; he is assured
of a welcome and true hospitality such as any person could wish.
The task of a colored man selecting a lodging room in the
West End of London is not easy to accomplish. In several houses
where there are "Roams to Let" signs, it a black man should ap:ly
for a room, the landlady with discriminating nicety would say,
"I am sorry but the room I had vacant has just been let." Others
would say, "I am awfully sorry but I do not rent rooms to colored
people."
I have discovered that in order to be given consideration
in renting a room the colored man must put on evening dress and
be immaculate in his appearance. This only goes to show that a
great majority of these people who keep lodging houses are wallowing
in Che unfathomable depths of ignorance.
When I was touring the provinces witri Lew Leslie's "Black
Birds," of which Florence Mills was the star I met with a most
peculair incident regarding this lodging affair. The company
engaged a man who travelled in advance to book rooms for us, and
in one particular instance in Leeds, where he sought to book a
room for me, the landlady objected most violently. She said that
she could not think of letting rooms to "blackies." After a con-
siderable amount of pleading on the part of our advance man, the
woman consented reluctantly and within the first two days of my
residence she quickly noticed that my mannerisms, tact and smart-
ness were far superior to those of herself and family. As a
matter of fact, I had a whole lot to teach than in the line of
culture. She afterwards developed an inferiority complex and
about the third day she came and asked me to forgive her for
the ignorance which she displayed. Before the week was out I
-7
became so much attached to the family that I ended up addressing
them as "father" and "mother," and they in turn addressed me as
their "son." I have experienced so many cases of this nature.
ft
forgive them for they know not." Indeed this must
be said concerning thousands of English people because
notions of prejudice against the
simply because they don't know.
educational system or propaganda
the form
black man for no just cause,
The explanation is that the
is wrong. Some measure of Eng-
lndls colonization is also wrong. The missionaries, by singling
out the exceptions rather than the average, have given the world
a warped view of the African Negro. Some months ago, Colonel E.
A. Loftus, the Headmaster of Barking Abbey School, wrote a mag-
nificent article in the "Daily Express" entitled "Week -end Thinking
for Parents: What Children Need to Know." It is a great pity that
the learned Colones did not include the subject of Anthropology in
his skillfully designed article. Such a subject is badly needed
for parents and children. A few years ago a child saw a gentlemen
of colour on the street and immediately took fright. In her haste
to escape this man she ran into a motor van and was killed. Now
then, what can you say about such an incident happening in a civil-
ized country as England. Some parents teach their children to grow
up in fear of a Negro by telling that if they misbehave, a black
man would come and carry them away. I must repeat; therefore that
the educational system is all wrong.
Some people put themselves to great discomfort rather than
sit in the same compartment of a train or public conveyance with
a Negro, and to be sure it is very surprising that some of these
same people occupy objectionable lodgings where the lowest forms
of debauchery exists, but still they have the audacity to resent
-8
the presence of a man of colour. In my profession, I am thrown in
contact with all sorts and conditions of people, consequently I am
singled out in the street much easier than the averge coloured per-
son. If I should happen to meet an English girl in the street, which
lappens invariably, who has some affiliation with my work, naturally
the correct thing to do is to pay respectful homage. This however,
would create obstruction of traffic for people would be gazing im-
politely and walking into other people trying to find out what you
are talking about. Often times you would hear some sinister under-
tone from a passerby such as there is a blackie talking to a
0
white girl.
A
Some of my best friends are to be found among the Jews of
both sexes in England. They are an oppressed race just as we are,
although I should think they are better off on account of their
gold. We all know they are a very religious race and in view of
this fact I am utterly amazed, and it completely surpasses my
comprehension to find that a great majority of Jews in England
carry out an astute prejeduce against the Negro. Other than the
question of a Gentile I am sure that no form of prejudice is being
taught in the Synagogues. Then where do their religious teachings
came in, or how does the subject of "do unto others as you would
have them do unto you" function. Is is that in theory they accept
the principles of God and in practice they do not operate it?
I was booked to play for a very smart wedding at Gosvenor
House but was finally barred from playing onthe grounds that South
African Jews were attending the party and would certainly not allow
a Negro orchestra to play for them.
Last summer a Jewish friend of mine who is tery fond of
-9
music organized a group of his friends to visit the promenade con-
certs at the Queen's Hail. He paid me the honour of asking me to
lead the group and instruct them on the "Formation of the Symphony",
etc, etc. The group consisted of five young women and two men.
One night, after the performance I offered to escort one of the
yOung women who lived in close proximity of my residence. She
gladly accepted and when we arrived at her home I bade her bon
nuit and we parted. The next day the young woman in question was
severely reprimanded by some members of the group. They claimed
that it was obscene for a Jewish girl to walk in the streets with
a black man, and that people would attribute no other motive than
immorality. It was the most absurd statement to which I have ever
listened. They valued my knowledge within the precints of Queen's
Hall, but out on the street my dark skin was an offence to chastity.
There are a great multitude of English people who put the
black man in the category of a savage, forgetting that there are
more savages among themselves than among the Negro. Look at the
dreadful murder crimes and attacks on young girls in England. Can
this be ever attributed to the black man? No.
A considerable amount of the green eyed moster prejudice is
to be found among the members of the femminine sex of the lower
middle class girl who is aspiring to climb the social ladder.
Their modus operandi is to get into the society of an Oxford or
Cambridge undergraduate, or Some person of distinction. I have
attended social functions where these girls were assembled in
large groups and despite the fact that I was introduced correctly,
certain cliques of them would enact a frigid aloofness towards me
on the grounds solely of my color. But as soon as they learned of
my accomplishments, they immediately dropped their frigidity and
sought my freindship.
-10
Some would adopt the cult of snobbery which is unbecoming to
them, thus making themselves perfectly ridiculous. The frequent
appearance of such calamities furnished me with the necessary de-
vice with which to cope with the situation. The trouble with these
girls is that they have no social prestige and by association with
a black man they think that the social ladder would be difficult to
climb. The aristocratic and upper middle class girls are entirely
different. They either appreciate the virtue of the Negro or dis-
like him intensely. Those who appreciate his virtue are semper
eadem whether in their palaces or in the street.
It might interest you to know that most of the Negroes re-
siding in England are musicians and in order to live, they have
to excel. In other words to succeed a coloured musician has to
go his white brother one oetter.
Life is really an incredibly mysterious and apparently un-
just succession of incidents for the Negro. While there are a
great majority of Jewish people who are obsessed with the idea
of adherence to their antagonistic allegiance, there are also
a large number who fraternize with the coloured people. Some
Jewish people think that a full blooded Negro possesses some
kind of secret esoteric significance and that by touching him
luck will came to then. One day, while on my way to my studio
I happened to be passing through a Jewish neighborhood when an
elderly lady approached me and said "May I touch you for luck?"
I was so utterly surprised at the suddeness of this gesture that
I became speechless for a moment. However when I recovered I
turned to the lady and said "If by touching me you will derive
any material benefit I will permit you to so do." A clever young
Jewish girl who was near overheard the conversation and was thrill-
-11-
ed to the utmost followed me secretly to my studio and ascertained
from the attendant my name and occupation. A few days later, to
my great surprise I was astonished to rind an article entitled
"Touch Me For Luck" sent by the girl in the post. This is not
the only incident to which I can refer of a aimilar nature. How-
ever thanks to the Jewish people who think that my race possesses
such a mystical influence.
As time moves on the Negro in England continues to climb
the tortuous slopes ofprogress. Wherever he goes he is always
under surveillance, directly or indirectly. In view of this
fil.ct a Negro has to be meticulously careful in his deportment.
If in a public place he misbehaves and is ejected, no other colored
person would be permitted to enter because all other Negroes would
be judged by the miscreant. The fact that he succeeds magnificently
proves that he has made his mark and has reached a high level of
accomplishment, an abvious indication of greater things to come
when artificial handicaps are removed. Let us then look upon
this colous problem in a more enlightened way, the Jew especially,
who are an oppressed minority. Give credit where it is due, and
to the Negro give that measure of freedom and opportunity which
you ask for yourselves.